LFN vs HP for hunting

[wtfooptimax200]

LFN boolit designs have a very proven track record on game and are certainly great, but I am always looking to improve. Would an LFN type bullet converted to HP provide better terminal performance on deer? The way I look at is that if I am having complete pass through, I'm wasting unused energy. If I have a hollow point with a wide meplat, in the worst case, if the boolit doesn't expand, I still have an LFN.

All of this goes out the window when the subject of dangerous game is brought up, but for the sake of this post, let's stick to deer.

Any thoughts on this topic are appreciated

[btroj]

Much depends upon two things, caliber and velocity. I personally prefer a big, flat nose and no HP. I am sure others have other ideas.
Put it where it needs to be and all works out well in the end.

Brad

[wtfooptimax200]

Good point...I'm talking .45 caliber or larger at 1200-1400 fps

[USSR]

I'm going the HP route for deer. There is a bit of a learning curve involved, in that you can't just look at BHN, but you also need to look at keeping your antimony level down and your tin level up.

Don

[onondaga]

I have used both with the 340 gr Lee RN-F by using a large Forester HP drilling jig on a Forester case trimming tool. The Velocity was 1610 fps and both shots were lung broadside hits at about 80 yards on two different bucks of similar size. Both shots exited and exit holes were carbon copies with no discernible difference. Both were bang flop kills.

The main negative concern I had that caused my decision not to continue using the HPs is how easily the edge of the HP hole is damaged. I don't rough up boolits and I don't carry them loose in my pocket in the field but transporting them in boxes regularly damaged my HP boolits even though they were 15 BHN Lyman #2 alloy. I'm sure some cushioned shell boxes would help but my MTM box damaged all 50 rounds after two 100 mile car trips and I had to load more ammo mid-season.

Shooting the damaged boolits at my club range later definitely showed fliers and open groups. My rifle is a pristine scoped Colt/Sauer Grand African, .458 Win. Mag. with a glass smooth bore and groups that load 1.2" at 100 yards. I had 3-6" groups with the damaged HP boolits. There seems to be a definite nose steering phenomenon with edge dented HPs in my rifle. I won't use them again.

Gary

[gasboffer]

I used to hunt deer with a .35 Rem. Started with Lyman 358156 HP. Had some trouble not getting clean kills. Switched to Lyman 358156 solid point, no more trouble.
Clyde

[Larry Gibson]

I've been using HP'd cast bullets in .30 cal and above for some 40+ years. I learned a long time ago two things; first the alloy must be malleable. If the alloy is brittle with too much antimony the nose expasion petals will quickly slough off or the nose will shatter. a proper alloy is needed that will expand readily yet be tough enough not to slough off or shater. Second the HP shouldn't be too deep. Most Lyman HP stems made the HP way too deep for controlled expansion. I've shortened the HP stems of Lyman moulds, made new ones and used the Forster 1/16" and 1/8" to effectively HP properly cast bullets. I also use a tapered drill to enlarge the 1/8" HP in larger caliber bullets for better and quicker expansion, especially in deer.

Along with the correct alloy and HP depth I also prefer to use GC'd bullets. With such I can achieve the desired velocity for the cartridge with excellent hunting accuracy. I use alloys from 40-1 lead - tin to 16-1 lead - tin for most pistol cast bullets used for deer hunting. I prefer the magnums and find the 358156 HP to be excellet in the .357, the 429640 HP to be very effective in the .44 Magnum. However, the 452490 HP is a favorite in the .45 Colt rifle. In CF rifle cartridges from .30 /.31, 8mms and .35 I prefer the heavy for caliber bullets cast of WW/lead at 50/50, properly HP'd and push them at 2000 - 2200 fps for excellent results on deer out to 200 yards. In the .375 H&H the 357449 HP'd with the 1/8" Forster with the HP opened up using the tapered drill is very deadly on deer. So is the RCBS 45-300-FN GC'd bullet when cast of a suitable alloy, HP'd and driven at 2000 fps.

my observations of many deer killed over the years with and without HPs using cast bullets is that the expanding cast bullet kills quicker. I've heard lots of horror stories on HPs blowing up on shoulders, etc of game but have yet to actually see one. I've recovered very, very few cast bullets, HP or otherwise, in deer. A properly cast HP'd bullet will give excellent controlled expansion and through and through penetration. And if, per chance, the HP'd doesn't expand kills just like its hard cast cousins that aren't HP'd. A win win situation.

Larry Gibson

[Bret4207]

Re- boolits passing through wasting energy. 2 holes leak more than one hole, 2 holes mean the boolit hit everything it could going through and didn't stop on a nearside rib. Instead of thinking of pass through as wasted energy, think of it as adding to the damage and blood trail.

[45 2.1]

Re- boolits passing through wasting energy. 2 holes leak more than one hole, 2 holes mean the boolit hit everything it could going through and didn't stop on a nearside rib. Instead of thinking of pass through as wasted energy, think of it as adding to the damage and blood trail.

A FMJ does the same thing (complete pass thru).................. Do you really want that or do you want the maximum amount of energy or tissue destruction transfered to the animal you shot?

[btroj]

I did have a 45-70 hollow point blow up on a shoulder last year. Entirely my fault.
Did not do as Larry said. Alloy was too hard and it was driven fast enough that the nose fragmented and I went from a 350 gr hollow point to a 175 gr wadcutter. The bullet ended up in the neck of the deer. A solid would have dropped the deer right there. A hollow point of proper hardness would have likely killed quickly also but a solid is much less picky about alloy.
I have not shot large numbers of deer with the 45-70 but I don't hunt in area where the cover is so thick that a lost animal is likely. A solid kills plenty quick for me. I have become a penetration is key kind of guy.

Bras

[btroj]

A FMJ does the same thing (complete pass thru).................. Do you really want that or do you want the maximum amount of energy or tissue destruction transfered to the animal you shot?

If the fmj has a wide, flat nose and is in 45-70 then yes, I am OK with it. In round nose or spire point then not so much. I like a pass through on deer but the nose shape is important to me also. I want a flat nosed hunting bullet.

[44man]

There is no wasted energy with a pass through as long as the boolit did it's work before exit.
Too hard and too fast does poor work so plan on some expansion with a ductile alloy. Maintain penetration.
I assume the question was about a revolver boolit. A hard FN works fine as long as the boolit stays under 1400 fps. I would say 1250 to 1350 is the best range for hard like water dropped WW boolits.
Air cooled also is good and better at a lower velocity but too fast will be better with a softer alloy but a fast, soft, hollow point will blow a deer into red smoke.
This is what a WFN, water dropped WW boolit will do at around 1350 fps before exit. This boolit did it's job yet would still go through two more deer.

[44man]

Energy dump and muzzle energy numbers are paper figures that the real world left behind.

[x101airborne]

energy dump and muzzle energy numbers are paper figures that the real world left behind.

amen!!

[missionary5155]

Good morning
I am of the opinion at this time that #1 I want complete penetration and #2 I want expansion for hunting loads. Looking at old mould catalogs I see more solid noses than hollow points being used. Also the hunters were prone to be shooting soft lead at the intended critter desiring complete penetration. So that is generally my approach to my hunting ammo. Kep it as soft as possible and with complete pass through. I want a good flowing exit hole.
I generaly use 25-75 (WW-Lead) up to 50-50 GC boolits in smokeless rifles and revolvers if it will still shoot acurately at the intended velocity. For BP 40-1 (lead- tin) is my running favorite. Most all are solid noses as I have not seen my HP boolits doing any better on groundhog & larger critters. But then my hunting is normally under 50 yards in river bottoms & woods & ditches so I still have good velocity on my side and I get good nose expansion on targets.
But I will say on a strickly stopper type preditor round I like the explosive effect of HP´s up close. There I want all the energy dumped on target fast and furious as I have no intention of tracking that target. I want that round to rip & snort all through that target. Again I cast them soft with a GC on smokeless loads and have little concern about leading as these are going to fired close and hopefully only few are needed.
Mike in Peru

[BABore]

There's a couple schools of thought on cast HP's. The most common one is the classic, gunrag mushroom. Get the nose to roll back and mushroom perfectly. It takes a softer, malleable alloy, defined nose wall thickness, cavity depth, and of course the necessary velocity to make it all work. That's velocity at impact which is a mystery til the hammer drops. This type of HP expansion will have more dwell time in the animal and penetration can be limited if the boolit pancakes. Consistent expansion can be a problem over a wide impact velocity and range.

The second method is to purposely blow the nose off the dang boolit. You need to have a large diameter HP cavity and thin nose wall thickness. The depth of cavity will determine how much nose you will lose and the extent of the initial wound channel. Again, the alloy needs to be somewhat soft and malleable. That doesn't mean it has to be 8-10 bhn though. It can easily be done with 50/50 WW-PB that has been water dropped. Big 45 boolits can be water dropped to get a harder shell and soft interior. The HP nose will tend to be hard all the way through because once the HP pin is removed the wall is fairly thin. This is not a big concern as you are looking for it to fragment. Expansion in media and deer show a rapid expansion for the first few inches. The nose has basically exploded into fragments. The boolit shank continues on like a large meplat boolit. This method is also affected by impact velocity and range. It is a little more forgiving IMO as it will either fragment the nose into larger pieces or secondaries or just mushroom like the first method. At some point it will not expand just like the first method. Some may poo poo this HP method, but I wish they would explain why it's ok for the Nosler Partition to be famous for the same properties. It's been the gold standard for an awful long time.

For me, the perfect HP deer boolit is one cast from 50/50 WW-Pb. Air cooled if the gun prefers it at the desired velocity and water dropping it if needed.. I tend to choose a little heavy for caliber boolit because I still like penetration. I still want enough shank left to do the deed. I also want a decent 70-75% meplat to back me up if I have to go long. In the 45 pistol caliber I would look at what is a good tried and true solid boolit that works. Nobody has ever complained about 250-260 grain boolits and penetration. A decent HP cavity will deduct about 20 grains from the nose. You'll loose another 10-15 grains below the cavity if it's a close shot. I would be picking a boolit that's around 285-290 grains and has a 0.300 to 0.320 meplat. The HP pin would be 0.219 to 0.250 diameter leaving you with a 0.035 to 0.040 nose wall thickness. I would choose the cavity depth based on my velocity with it being shallower as velocity increased. This is all based on a hotter 45 Colt load in a Ruger. If this were for a 454 Casull I would increase the boolit weight and tweak the HP cavity for top end loads. For Colt SA velocities I would lean towards a lighter boolit.

Finally you need to know deer anatomy and be flexible on shot placement. A close range shot where expansion is not questioned, a couple 2-3 ribs back from behind the shoulder would kill quick and lessen meat damage. The farther out you get, the tighter you bring it in to the shoulder. At the longer ranges where your pretty sure your only going to have the meplat to count on, breaking the shoulder down will be quick. It all depends on your hunting situation and area. Time spent shooting into media at various ranges is a must to understand what your boolit will and won't do.

[Bret4207]

A FMJ does the same thing (complete pass thru).................. Do you really want that or do you want the maximum amount of energy or tissue destruction transfered to the animal you shot?

I was speaking to the issue of pass thru and assuming a FN or HP boolit to start with as the OP was referencing. My apologies for not covering every possible aspect of other peoples interpretations. Another case of 90% rule applying to internet forum participation.

[44man]

Factories have spent years and years getting bullets to expand yet retain weight for deep penetration.
Not easy considering all the calibers and velocities shot so a bullet still needs matched and so does a revolver boolit need matched.

[Wayne Smith]

Specifically for the 45-70 the Lyman 457122 Gould hollowpoint is the original boolit designed for eastern deer hunting. At BP velocities they knew that a large HP caused the nose of the boolit to blow up, so all of them at that time were small HP pins. The same that we see on the Gould boolit today. This was at BP velocities and with lead-tin alloy boolits.

Velocity, alloy composition, and size of HP are all variables that will affect your answer.

[Larry Gibson]

but a fast, soft, hollow point will blow a deer into red smoke.


Really? Well I shot this little Texas buck with that HP'd 35-200-FN cast of 50-50 WW/lead pictured above in the .35 Remington. This deer been very good eating and I never did see any "red smoke" and have the head mounted very nicely in my living room. As you can see from the photo's the cast HP bullet expanded very nicely and held together perfectly for the classic through and through shot. Range was about 90 yards so with the bullet starting out at 2150 fps the buck took most of it. He just stumbled to the right slightly down hill and collapsed. You see the entrance and exit wounds from the inside of the buck, 1st is the entrance and 2nd the exit. No "red smoke" there!

Larry Gibson

[BABore]

That looks just about like the damage done to the big doe I shot last year. 357 Maximum rifle with a 50/50 WD 358430 GC HP of 180 grs. at 2,140 fps. The broadside shot was only at 40 yards and was placed just a couple ribs behind the shoulder. No shoulder damage other than a little blood-snot to wipe off and the ribs were boned out to one on either side of the shattered ones. That doe was around 160 lbs. I looked and looked, but failed to find the elusive red mist as well.

[fredj338]

I split the diff & went w/ a cup point. Cast soft, 25-1, running 1225fps, it doesn't stop inside a deer.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/270grLHP-deer.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg

[44man]

I shot this with one of Babore's 50-50 HP's, 420 gr, 45-70 revolver at about 1630 fps, about 60 yards.
I hit behind the shoulder but sadly it exited through the off shoulder. I lost most of the shoulder meat, a mangled mess and I suppose a red mist was left at the shot.
she was bloodshot all through the neck clear to the head.

[BABore]

Tis what can happen if you can't pick your shot. At the angle you describe, I would have went about 4-5 ribs back on the near side.

[ColColt]

but a fast, soft, hollow point will blow a deer into red smoke.


Really? Well I shot this little Texas buck with that HP'd 35-200-FN cast of 50-50 WW/lead pictured above in the .35 Remington. This deer been very good eating and I never did see any "red smoke" and have the head mounted very nicely in my living room. As you can see from the photo's the cast HP bullet expanded very nicely and held together perfectly for the classic through and through shot. Range was about 90 yards so with the bullet starting out at 2150 fps the buck took most of it. He just stumbled to the right slightly down hill and collapsed. You see the entrance and exit wounds from the inside of the buck, 1st is the entrance and 2nd the exit. No "red smoke" there!

Larry Gibson

Looks like a rib or two was hit. I'll bet that created some secondary missiles that caused more damage.

[Larry Gibson]

Don't know what it is about the 45-70 and deer......many years back when I first built my 450-400-70 on the Siamese Mauser action I loaded soft cast 458483s (not HP'd) at just under 1700 fps (yes I had a chronograph back then). I shot several mule deer with it including 2 does with one shot and all had excessive bloodshot. Back that bullet or the 458124 down to TD level of 1300 fps or so and it makes a nice hole. I think it just whops them deer pretty hard and lets a lot of air in. Any ways then tried the Gould HP and if it was above 1400 fps the same bloodshot occured. The sam happens with the GC'd RCBS 45-300-FN when HP'd and driven at 1800 - 2000 fps so it's my "varmint" bullet of choice in my TDs. I don't shoot little deers with the 450-400-70 anymore for just that reason - to much bloodshot.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Looks like a rib or two was hit. I'll bet that created some secondary missiles that caused more damage.

Yup, the lungs and heart were "toast":lovebooli....especially when HP'd!

Larry Gibson

[bhn22]

Energy dump and muzzle energy numbers are paper figures that the real world left behind.

They are number applied by men trying to understand something they can't comprehend. There have to be numbers involved somewhere...

[USSR]

Big 45 boolits can be water dropped to get a harder shell and soft interior.

Hmmm, I was under the impression that lead, unlike ferrous metals, reacted to quenching by altering the lead structure completely through?


The HP nose will tend to be hard all the way through because once the HP pin is removed the wall is fairly thin. This is not a big concern as you are looking for it to fragment. Expansion in media and deer show a rapid expansion for the first few inches. The nose has basically exploded into fragments.

I don't know about others, but I would not use a HP that intentionally fragments on deer. I eat a lot of venison, and blood-shot meat does not appeal to me.


For me, the perfect HP deer boolit is one cast from 50/50 WW-Pb. Air cooled if the gun prefers it at the desired velocity and water dropping it if needed..

My first testing of 265gr HP's for the .45 Colt involved 50/50 AC WW's, and even at low velocities, fracturing of the HP occurred. My next batch was a 25:1 binary alloy, and expansion was excellent. Another was essentially the same with 1% Sb, and expansion was also excellent. So, I am a firm believer in keeping the Sb below 2%, and the Sn in the 3 - 4% range.

Don

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
THANK YOU GUYS, FOR THIS THREAD & PICTURES.:Fire::Fire:

[leftiye]

Plus 1 (what he said). Actually, it sounds like the 45-70 or any 45 cal at over about 1300 to1400 fps is probly too much gun -if you like venison - for deer.

[mpmarty]

Shoot 'em in the head.

[singleshot]

A FMJ does the same thing (complete pass thru).................. Do you really want that or do you want the maximum amount of energy or tissue destruction transfered to the animal you shot?

I've seen bullets explode and produce horrific surface wounds and expend all their energy in the target. Does that work for ya?

[Canuck Bob]

I'm a through and through guy myself. I started young hunting moose in the bush. A double blood trail is extra insurance if an animal runs and deer can run with a heck of a hole in them!

I shoot a 444 and many gun writers said that they were using too lightly constructed 240gr 44 Mag bullets. My experience with Deer was much different. I got rapid expansion and some real penetration punch in the smaller animal compared to my stouter bullet moose loads, excellent terminal knock down and real leaker exit wonds.

The pictures and discussion regarding meat damage is great. I grew up only allowed to hunt for meat so lung/heart or head up close were the rules. Why put a smelly old bull in the freezer when a young cow could be had and nothing bleeds out like a head shot. If shooting boiler room when possible a faster expander would be my choice. A shoulder anchoring shot will usually cost a front quarter. With a 444 and close you got mostly rump in your future from bone shrapnel. Thats why the Magnum rifle deer hunters baffled me a bit. Very effective terminally but it was like trying to find something to cook on a gopher after a 223 at 50 feet! Supper comes complete with handy bone tooth picks.

Babores description of a fragmenting HP CB a couple ribs back really makes a ton of sense for deer. Lungs get serious trauma, shoulder stays fresher, and the wadcutter base drives forward to punch a double blood trail. It also addresses your concerns about leaving more energy behind. My new NOE has a HP pin in a cavity but I had no intention of using it, that's changed now.

[Lloyd Smale]

Im kind of in BaBores camp of thought. The only hps ive seen really fail were soft maluable ones. We shot a couple buffalo once with 500 linebaughs with soft hps. The big mushrooms stopped dead in the animal after only about 6 inches of penetration. I also killed a buffalo with a devestator out of a 44 mag that was cast out of ww plus 2 percent tin and it lost its nose and the remainder of the bullet gave complete penetration and all that witnessed the kill said it was the quickest kill on a bufflalo theyd ever seen. It took one leap and piled up. To me a hp should be cast on the harder side and have a smaller shallower hp cavity as velocity is increased. Nos partitions have been working for years by blowing off there nose in a simular fashion and have probably the best reputation going for jacketed rifle bullets killing cleanly. Now i know deer are a differnt ball game then buffalo and would require a slightly differnt alloy and velocity to work but thats the case with any hp bullet. But i still would prefer a bullet that shed its nose inside the animal to one that gave a big perfect mushroom. As to blood shot meat if your worried about that stick to a lfn and shoot them in the lungs as a hp cast out of maluable lead or harder lead is going to tear up a shoulder bad and even an lfn will if velocitys are over 1100 fps at impact. I shoot alot of deer in a year and for the most part dont get to conserned about a couple more lbs of hamburger meat.

[Bass Ackward]

The problem with hollow points is not the bullet. But the person and the person's use of it.

Can the hollow point be "more" effective? Yes. Can it be way less than a solid? Oh yea.

And it depends where you need the performance. Understand that a hollow point will extend long(er) range? (lower velocity) But it degrades at higher strike velocity. (short range)

This is usually the opposite for deer as most are shot at short range especially with a handgun.

Honestly ask yourself, will you be responsible and test to determine both maximum and minimum ranges for that load / HP so you eliminate dramatic failure? If your answer is no, then stick to solids. If you are less than satisfied with solids performance in a handgun, pick up a rifle.

[44man]

One thing I think we can all agree with is we can never expect a boolit to do the same thing all the time.
I shoot off hand at most deer because of conditions here and many are moving so that means I can't place shots on one rib and it is even harder to tell deer position at longer ranges.
My friend had 2 recovered 320 gr LBT, WLNGC boolits from small deer last season, first time I seen that. He hit bone, damaged the nose sideways and both boolits turned 90* and went through the guts. He knew he did not gut shoot them and was surprised when he opened them.
I suppose a softer boolit or a fragile HP would be more prone to off side damage by nicking a large bone. At that point, where will the boolit go? :holysheep You done broke the steering wheel! [smilie=l:

[45 2.1]

I've seen bullets explode and produce horrific surface wounds and expend all their energy in the target. Does that work for ya?

Sounds like a 300 Mag with light bullets there (we don't have the option of centerfire rifles here, just shotgun slugs, bow and arrow, muzzleloader or handgun). I've shot a large amont of deer with a handgun everywhich way thats been described here. Deer are fairly thin when standing broadside and you want what energy you can get into the deers vital area. That means no handcannons in the shoulder area which tears up a bit of meat............. a nice hollowpoint into the heart/lung area with the second version of BABores expansion type works quite well...................this is from a lot of actual testing on real animals.

[Larry Gibson]

The problem with hollow points is not the bullet. But the person and the person's use of it.

Can the hollow point be "more" effective? Yes. Can it be way less than a solid? Oh yea.

And it depends where you need the performance. Understand that a hollow point will extend long(er) range? (lower velocity) But it degrades at higher strike velocity. (short range)

This is usually the opposite for deer as most are shot at short range especially with a handgun.

Honestly ask yourself, will you be responsible and test to determine both maximum and minimum ranges for that load / HP so you eliminate dramatic failure? If your answer is no, then stick to solids. If you are less than satisfied with solids performance in a handgun, pick up a rifle.

Very well said, I concur 100%. The only thing I would add is that with the 50/50 alloy and muzzle velocities of 2000 - 2200 fps I've not had any HPs blow up at short range (25 yards or so). That is because I don't HP more than 1/3 - 2/3 the length of the bullet nose, depending on the bullet design, for use on deer. The Forster instructions say to make the HP 1/8" deep. That is probably a good all around choice. Lymans HP stems for most all the rifle bullets make the HP way too deep and that's what causes the noses to blow off. A proper depth HP in a proper alloyed cast bullet aides expansion and kills quicker with quite sufficient penetration for any deer walking. A Lyman 429640 "Devastator" HP cast of 16-1 or 50/50 alloys a driven at 1400+ fps out of a .44 revolver will give excellent expansion and penetration in deer accross my pratical range of 100 yards on deer. I've not had any one "blow up" or shed its nose entirely. Works equally well on the typical 150 - 250 lb pig.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

My bad experience was with a 350 RD style bullet from NOE. It has a huge, deep hollow point. It goes down to the crimp groove or so. The entire front of the bullet blows off leaving a wadcutter that is almost wider than long. As you can imagine, it doesn't penetrate well at all after losing the nose.

A hollow point this big needs slot lead and low velocity or else the nose is gone. I realize my situation was severe but it shows that not all hollow points are the same.

Bass hit is dead on. It was my fault. I pushed the envelope with not enough testing and got bit. I got the deer but learned an awful lot. Solids for me from now on.

Brad

[Larry Gibson]

btroj

You could also simply alter the HP pin or get another one of the correct size and depth. Good to see you took "credit" for what went wrong instead of catagoricly da*ing all HPs. Just because what you used went wrong doesn't mean all HPs are bad. Doesn't really take much to make them work, then you'd have the best of both types.

Larry Gibson

[btroj]

The NOE hollow point plugs are way too big for hunting. I will say that this bullet cast really hard and brittle shot at 2000 fps in my Marlin would be a heck of a 50 yard varmint gun. I can only imagine the destructive power on a coyote!

I have learned to cast all my bullets much softer, even more so for hunting. I am learn g that the equiv of 50/50 ww/ PB or even softer, then water dropped works well in the Marlin. They may bend but they won't break. A 420 gr solid went right thru the shoulder of a black bear last year and kept on going.

Bras

[HollowPoint]

I have to agree with the fellow that "split the difference" and went with a cup point.

I had similar problems with a Group-Buy mold in 44 caliber I bought when I first joined this forum.

As a designed, when shot with #2 lead it would mushroom far to much and if I hardened my alloy the nose would shear off.

I ended up making an adjustable hollow-pointing pin that allowed me to cast 300 grain bullets that could be made anywhere from just a dimple on the nose of the bullet to a hollow-point cavity a quarter inch deep.

With the same #2 alloy a shallow cup-point was just the thing to achieve deep penetration while still retaining some of the mushrooming I bought this mold for in the first place.

It worked out so well that I also made one for my 200 grain Lyman Devastator mold in 45 caliber. It made for a far more versatile bullet mold.

HollowPoint

[white eagle]

that ...is a very clever hp system

[nanuk]

a wide flat nosed 45cal boolit that expands little or none at all is still as fat as a 25cal J-word that hits a deer at 300yds, and no one will say a 25-06 is not a 300yd gun.

I use a 410gr boolit in my 50cal muzzleloader. 90grVol on the measure. No idea how fast, but have recovered a few boolits from stuff I've shot (tree stumps mostly) and have never seen one mushroom. in fact a couple could be reloaded. Pure lead.

but the damage to deer is incredible. 1" hole going in, 1" hole going out, and SOUP in between. and a blood trail no longer than 50yds long that looks like a punctured spray can

I no longer see a need to have a large diameter boolit mushroom... they already are

[XWrench3]

well, honestly, i have yet to kill a deer with a cast bullet. so my opinion is not tried and true. but i have hunted for years with"j" bullets. a 45 caliber slug retains a lot of energy, even if it expands. a complete pass through is also not such a bad thing. it creates 2 leak passages, usually a massive wound channel from which to hemorage from, gives you twice the chance of breaking or mangleing one of the support structures (leg or shoulder) , which will at the very least will slow the critter down. at 45 caliber, you don't necessarily need it to expand, but if it will, that is always a good thing, as long as it does not break apart. 2 years ago, i shot a deer w/ my 45/70 at about 15 yards with a factory round, it went lengthwise through the deer and kept on going! it definitly ruined a lot of meat, but it dropped in its tracks also. that was a 325g bullet traveling @ 2000 fps. can you say OVERKILL! anyway, if you have a way of making perfecly centered hollow point boolits, i would hunt with them. however, if you are drilling lfn boolits out to become hollow points, i would caution you about that. an out of ballance boolit, will not fly straight. and you will never be able to make a batch of them that match. the shot you intend to impact in the chest cavity, may very well miss, or become a gut shot. i think we all drill a few lfn's to test at the range just to see what happens. if you have a lathe that you can drill them in, great! but most of us use a hand drill, or a drill press. and that is no where near good enough for hunting, unless your shot is going to be less than 20 yards.

[tuckerdog]

well cast boolit w/wide nose, hollow or solid, correct shot placement = deer steaks. the rest is just the hobby talking, no offence intended. I like to experiment as much as any one

[fredj338]

I have to agree with the fellow that "split the difference" and went with a cup point.

I had similar problems with a Group-Buy mold in 44 caliber I bought when I first joined this forum.

As a designed, when shot with #2 lead it would mushroom far to much and if I hardened my alloy the nose would shear off.

I ended up making an adjustable hollow-pointing pin that allowed me to cast 300 grain bullets that could be made anywhere from just a dimple on the nose of the bullet to a hollow-point cavity a quarter inch deep.

With the same #2 alloy a shallow cup-point was just the thing to achieve deep penetration while still retaining some of the mushrooming I bought this mold for in the first place.

It worked out so well that I also made one for my 200 grain Lyman Devastator mold in 45 caliber. It made for a far more versatile bullet mold.

HollowPoint

After experimenting w/ some 8diff HP designs on one mold, the cup point came out as the most uniform & predictable in performance, especially as vel get over 1200fps. So I settled on the shallow cup point as a hunting bullet or high vel SHTF defensive bullet.:bigsmyl2: Erik @ HPMS made the conversion for me & his pin setup allows for infinite variation in HP shape & depth. & it's easily adjustable W/ set screw holding the pin in place.

[michiganvet]

I believe in a hard wide flat nose @1400+ that will give a consistant wound channel over a HP which may overexpand and lose velocity causing a decreasing wound channel. That is the philosophy of Mr Smith of LBT.

[outdoorfan]

I believe in a hard wide flat nose @1400+ that will give a consistant wound channel over a HP which may overexpand and lose velocity causing a decreasing wound channel. That is the philosophy of Mr Smith of LBT.


And this has been your experience from several heads of game taken, or is it your belief based upon info that someone you may respect (Mr Smith) has voiced?

[Canuck Bob]

And this has been your experience from several heads of game taken, or is it your belief based upon info that someone you may respect (Mr Smith) has voiced?

It is possible and sensible to learn from others success. There are a number of people I listen too and will follow their advice. Veral Smith is one. Elmer Keith jumps to mind and Ken Waters, Skeeter Skelton, Paco, and so on. I could name at least 4 or 5 from this thread alone but I don't want to embarrass them. I do have extensive hunting experience in the Canadian bush and mountains for 50 years as well.

[outdoorfan]

It is possible and sensible to learn from others success. Absolutely!! There are a number of people I listen too and will follow their advice. Veral Smith is one. Elmer Keith jumps to mind and Ken Waters, Skeeter Skelton, Paco, and so on. I could name at least 4 or 5 from this thread alone but I don't want to embarrass them. Some advocate HP's and claim fantastic succes with them with 10's or even hundreds of game taken. Others have had great success with solid FP's. I was only taking a small exception to the way that previous post was worded as it seemed to be that someone was spouting off info they had heard from someone else that was in direct contridiction to some of the more experienced game takers here on this board (and elsewhere), and it appeared that none of it was first hand experience by the previous poster. Now, that may in fact not be true. It's just the way I read it. I do have extensive hunting experience in the Canadian bush and mountains for 50 years as well. I don't (with cast), except for a few head of game, which is next to worthless; and that's why I won't offer too much of an opinion because I don't have the experience that others do.


It's all about the journey, it seems.

[429421Cowboy]

Energy dump and muzzle energy numbers are paper figures that the real world left behind.

Agreed, numbers are a nice starting point but i know what i've seen and i've seen enough to know what works all the time and what works when it works but when it doesn't work, well... it doesn't work. i myself prefer a nice big bore hole on one side and out the other to let as much blood out and cold air in. To me this says flat nosed solid. But a master caster that knows his alloys can probably do more on whitetail with a good cast HP. That said i'll never use a jacketed HP on any animal i have respect for and i never have.

[Lloyd Smale]

I shot 3 doe in one evening last year with a 300 win mag using a 150 grain nos ballistic tip. A bullet that has a bad reputatioin for tearing up meat. I shot two of them at around a 100 yards and one at 350. I doubt there was a pound of wasted meat on any of the three. Most meat damage is caused by poor bullet placement or a hunter that doesnt really know and just wants to put a bullet into the deer anywhere. When we do crop damage shooting i really dont sweat a bit of meat damage because we can shoot so many deer but a guys instint will kick in if hes practiced enough and your brain will about put the bullet where it needs to go.
Sounds like a 300 Mag with light bullets there (we don't have the option of centerfire rifles here, just shotgun slugs, bow and arrow, muzzleloader or handgun). I've shot a large amont of deer with a handgun everywhich way thats been described here. Deer are fairly thin when standing broadside and you want what energy you can get into the deers vital area. That means no handcannons in the shoulder area which tears up a bit of meat............. a nice hollowpoint into the heart/lung area with the second version of BABores expansion type works quite well...................this is from a lot of actual testing on real animals.

[Lloyd Smale]

Larry I agree that many molds get carried away with hp cavity size and especially dept but ive got to argue on the lyman bullets at least the devestator. Id look at that bullet and say it was just to big of a hp cavity but ive shot an 1100 lb buffalo, two pigs and a couple deer with it and i cast hard enough to about insure the peddles break off. Ive yet to have the remainder of the bullet stop inside an animal. In every case it gave complete penetration. Now if the buffalo would have been standing at an angle or if i would have hit bone I probably would have had difffernt results but again it just goes back to knowing where the bullet has to go and making sure it gets there. I guess both of these posts i made come down to one point. Everyone has ideas on what you need to make a hp work well. Some will argue weight some cavity size some cavity design. My thoughts go more toward the fact that i can make about any of them work if i know how its going to react when hitting that animal in a certain place so that i get the most beneift or put another way, id rather have a poor bullet shot accurately then a excellent bullet shot pourly. I think alot of some guys opinions on cast bullets are clouded by the fact that theyve not shot much game with them and maybe didnt make a sugical shot on them.
Very well said, I concur 100%. The only thing I would add is that with the 50/50 alloy and muzzle velocities of 2000 - 2200 fps I've not had any HPs blow up at short range (25 yards or so). That is because I don't HP more than 1/3 - 2/3 the length of the bullet nose, depending on the bullet design, for use on deer. The Forster instructions say to make the HP 1/8" deep. That is probably a good all around choice. Lymans HP stems for most all the rifle bullets make the HP way too deep and that's what causes the noses to blow off. A proper depth HP in a proper alloyed cast bullet aides expansion and kills quicker with quite sufficient penetration for any deer walking. A Lyman 429640 "Devastator" HP cast of 16-1 or 50/50 alloys a driven at 1400+ fps out of a .44 revolver will give excellent expansion and penetration in deer accross my pratical range of 100 yards on deer. I've not had any one "blow up" or shed its nose entirely. Works equally well on the typical 150 - 250 lb pig.

Larry Gibson

[44man]

And this has been your experience from several heads of game taken, or is it your belief based upon info that someone you may respect (Mr Smith) has voiced?
That has always worked for me but I run about 1350 fps. Boolits are heavier maybe.
Lloyd is right, I don't kill as many deer but get 6 to 7 a season. I had to quit with 6 last year after everyone got meat.
This next season looks good too, deer are all over the place, my yard is full of them, eating mulberries. Bad part is they also eat all the leaves they can reach.
The 45-70 BFR is my problem, too fast at 1630 fps so that cup point looks good to me.
Darn funny so many deer are taken here every year but each year there are MORE. Like rats!

[white eagle]

rats everyone wishes for that problem
shoot I was into that crop damage stuff for awhile
shot a bunch of deer with lot of different things
the best I saw as far as instant on yer feet dead was a
12 ga slug just bang flop .....done