seeking any and all advice on shooting fairly high velocity 22 cal cast

[WyomingWhitetail]

Ok like the title says im looking for advice on getting 22 caliber boolits to shoot at above 2000 fps. I have been shooting commercial cast out of my 357 pistol and 44 mag rifle for years but always figured that cast was for big caliber low velocity rounds. Then i built a lever action in 219 zipper (30-30 necked down to 22) only to find out that finding tube feedable 22 cal bullets locally is a pita. This has lead me here to seek information. Im looking to work up loads for the 219 zipper (marlin 336 with 20 inch barrel and micro groove rifling) and a 223 (H&R handi rifle) with 22 hornet and 219 zipper improved near in the future (both in handi rifles).

My interest in shooting boolits is two or three fold, first economy ( i do not cast right now but am looking to get into it with help form experienced friends) and i shoot alot so cheap bullets would be welcome, second it would give me bullets to use the full potential in my zipper, and third because most people don't think its possibe which makes me want to try and make it work.

My goals for the loads would be as accurate as a jacketed load, as close to 2500 fps as i could get, and no or minimum leading. i would love to hear from those who are shooting high velocity 22s with success. I would be interested in what molds are being used, what lube is working well, what alloy is being cast, and even down to the types of powders being used. So far i have gathered that i will probably want a fairly hard alloy pushed by a slower burning powder in order to keep the pressure low. Looking for any and all experiences and secrets.thanks in advance for any help.

[Johnch]

First off , it can be done
But good luck

I have been casting for 30 years , working on 22 cal accurcy for 2

Read http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=112657
And then do a search for other threads on shooting high velosity 22 cal

I am playing with a faster twist , so your rifles with 1 -12" ? will be a touch easyer to get to shoot

Bigest thing I found for accurcy was how I sort boolits , any small decect and it goes back in the pot
I then weigh the ones that pass me looking at them

I have seen some darn impressive groups shot with 22 cal
I have shot a few , but as of yeat
Have not worked out all the kinks to get them all the time

John

[longbow]

You might want to read this series in Castpics by Beagle:

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223.pdf

That is part 1 of 3. I don't have a .22 caliber rifle to cast for but it looks like good info there.

Longbow

[Bullshop]

You might get some ideas if you go to the Competitions and get together forum.
Look for the 22 cal cast boolit only postal match results.
The first place winner shot in the .3" area at near the 2500fps velocity you mention and the second place shooter was right on his heels.
I combined all groups fired by all contestants and the average was about .75" at 100 yards.
I think most were shooting in the 2400 fps range.
None were shooting a zipper although Ranch Dog threatened to but he was not able to find the time to enter. Even so you will see what the possibilities are.

[onondaga]

About the economy aspect: prices of components and alloy aren't going to go back down. Don't ignore that. Decide on stuff you will be using and stock up opportunistically. If you see a great deal on primers or powder, brass, alloy, bullet molds etc ....snap em up!! they will likely cost significantly more next year. I got 10 pounds of Accurate 2230 this year on sale at Midway at $12.99 a pound. Even with the hazmat and shipping it was less than I could do locally. It is not my favorite powder but is usable in all my calibers but my .500 S&W. So I took the bargain and ran.

Stock up on bullet alloys. Don't even worry if it isn't the exact BHN you want. You will be able to mix. Get what is cheap now, the price will not be going down.

For your lever action Zipper: A flat nose is the most practical shape for a tube fed Lever gun. Getting the right diameter bullet takes slugging your bore and adding .002" Your boolit weight and alloy depend on your intended use.

A choice is in order on the alloy. If you want one that does it all, I recommend Lyman #2. It has great expansion as is on game, gas checked #2 alloy bullets are useful to respectable pressures and velocities close to factory ammo. Heat treating #2 alloy boolits will allow factory ammo velocities if your boolit fit is perfect and I have no problems with tumble lube going there in velocity.

Bullet fit is so important with cast and usually to keep those bullet sizes from being squeezed down during the loading steps some case neck expanding is required. The Lyman M die does that well and so does the Lee Collet Neck size die that is adjustable for cast boolits..The Lee Collet die requires a separate case mouth flair step for cast boolits, the M die does not. But they both work very well.

If your boolits are really large enough to shoot well, a standard case sizing die is usually going to make your brass squeeze your boolits to undersize and you will lose accuracy potential. So start out right and avoid unnecessary/incorrect multiple die purchases and a lot of unfruitful load work up shooting to try and find accuracy..

Gary

Gary

[HARRYMPOPE]

22's at the velocity you want are no big deal.You will loose accuracy before leading occurs with 22's in my experience.I had a 218 Mashburn Bee i shot the 225107 35g at 3200 fps.it would alternate 1" and 3" groups but it never leaded<G>I use Linotype for all my 22 shooting and never weigh them as i have had good luck accuracy wise without doing so.There is a group buy NOE on an Eagan 62g bullet i would recommend. it has shot quite a few groups under 1/2" in my Savage 22-250's and in a light weight Stevens 200 22-250 averaged 1.4" for almost a years shooting.(1500 shots)


I shoot 55g cast HP 22's at 2100 fps and its very destructive.I have loaded them to 2500+ but for my 50-150 yard shooting it didn't seem to be an advantage.

HMP

[303Guy]

( i do not cast right now but am looking to get into it with help form experienced friends)Oh boy! And you are going to start with the most difficult to cast caliber! On the upside, you haven't been spoilt with much easier to cast larger calibers. Anf od course the savings in lead is going to be enormous!

I might also take up 22 al casting, having tried once or twice and failed. My mould is a RCBS 55gr G/C. I couldn't get any real success with it and those 22's. But I have this 22 hornet crying out for cast boolits and a 22 barrel or two lying around crying out for a wilcat conversion (22/303 in my case - although the 22/30-30 seems better for cast).

[WyomingWhitetail]

Thanks for the info guys. I haven't tried to slug my bore yet but probably will hear soon just to get a starting point. Altho it seems like there is very few options for sizing dies this small. you either have .224 for older hornets or .225 for everything else do they make a .226 or .227 bullet sizer in order to get an exact fit for the barrel. I think that lyman #2 will be a pretty good place to start it sounds like a good all around alloy for rifles and i can always heat treat or quench to get the boolits harder. Right now im considering starting with IMR 3031 and IMR 4895 for powders are there others that are notorious for working well with boolits??

[white eagle]

just sold my 22 cal stuff off
to much to do
why go 2400 when 4500 is available by using condoms
like stated previously its a difficult cal
but if you are up for a challenge best o luck

[onondaga]

The right boolit sizing die:

I use the Lee Push through Lube and Size Kit. They come with LLA and these dies are easy to custom work at home to get just the diameter bullets you want .

Myself and others have posted about modifying the Lee bullet sizing dies. I recently honed out a .309 to .312" for my 7.62X39 mm single shot Remington Spartan. That job took less than 20 minutes with a split end wood dowel, sand paper and oil using an electric hand drill. It is trial and error. I take a number of slow passes, then size a bullet and measure it. With patience, you can get just the bullet size you want.

Even if you really goof it up, a new die is not a fortune and you get another bottle of lube with it.

I use 320 grit emery cloth and this actually gives a smoother than the factory finish and makes the die much easier to use.

There is also some members here that offer that service of modifying Lee bullet sizing dies.

Gary

[leadman]

I shoot cast in my 22K-Hornet and 223. I have obtained velocities over 3,000 fps, but not with an alloy other than linotype. Even heat treated boolits seem to lose accuracy at 2,500+ fps.
Have you checked Midsouth for the Lee Bator mold? This is a flatnose design that comes in a 6cavity mold.
Gas checks are difficult to install on these tiny boolits but the Hornady checks are the easiest to install that I have found. I had to anneal the Gator brand checks to get them to seat properly.
My best accuracy with high velocity has been in the 22K Hornet using LBT Blue Soft lube.
JiminPhx has had high velocity success with Lyman moly lube and the Bator boolit.
Good luck.

[WyomingWhitetail]

ok that solves the sizing thing. looks like im getting ready to embark an a long journey to reach my goals but at least ill get to shoot a lot.

[reloader28]

Good luck.
I've been playing around with 223WSSM a little.
Nothing good yet. 1 1/2"- 2" at 50yds, but I aint tried much yet as there is no cast data. I started using 220swift data.
Ya, I'm going from well over 4000fps to below 3000fps, but using my own boolits makes it well worth the speed loss for me.

[1Shirt]

Have been playing with 22 cast in 22 Hor, 22K Hor, 222, 223, and 22-250 off and on for a number of years. As recent as yesterday I shot 223's over Rl 7, and did a comparison with small pistol primers vs. small rifle primers. Same charge of 11.5 gr. produced smaller groups at 50 yds w/SP over SR, by about an average of 30% or maybe a bit more with 5 shot groups. Blts used were 225646, Ranch Dogs, Bators, w/red canuba lube. Will now start working up vol's. Ranch dogs by the way with that big flat meplat produce almost wad cutter holes. Recommend you read Beagles'article on 22's as well. The little ones are frustrating, but fun. Good luck!:killingpc
1Shirt!:coffee:

[WyomingWhitetail]

Well I could push my zipper pretty hard but it's built on a 1949 marlin 336 action with unknown history so I don't want to risk it

[WyomingWhitetail]

So just curious what the opinions on the different molds are. It seems the rcbs is pretty popular and i see Lyman makes a 44 gr mold that seems like it would be good. Somwhars everybody shooting and any preferences

[onondaga]

You can find complaints and praises about all the manufacturers. I'd recommend you get what you believe is the best you can afford in the design and weight you want. I certainly hope you don't wind up with a lemon and have to jump through hoops to get it replaced.

When you get the new mold, inspect it carefully before you use it. Look for good functioning mold guide pins, Flat mold tops with a well mated sprue plate, well mated mold edges when you look from the top and a good finish in the cavities and vents. It is much easier to return a mold that is not gunked up and doesn't have screw slots damaged, but is still new looking and the defect you mention is easily seen.

I returned a mold once because the sprue funnels didn't go all the way to the other side of the plate. The sprue plate holes tapered into a straight walled hole that was about 3/32 inch deep and I knew it wouldn't drop sprues unless I chamfered it with a counter sink and deburred the bottom of the plate. It was an expensive mold so I sent it back, unused, and asked them to absorb the shipping too because they sent me an out of spec mold.



Gary

[Doc Highwall]

WyomingWhitetail, I would suggest the 55 grain RCBS because of the nice flat nose for your lever action and it will make a nice small game bullet at the same time.

[WyomingWhitetail]

Yea it sounds like the rcbs 55 grain is a really popular mold for 22 cal. seems like everybody who cast for 22 has a rcbs mold

[Larry Gibson]

WyomingWhitetail

Have you measured the twist of your barrel?

What kind of accuracy (MOA) are you expecting with HV loads in your .223?

Larry Gibson

[WyomingWhitetail]

well the twist in my marlin 219 zipper is suppose to be 1 in 14 and this is the gun that im most interested in boolits for. The 223 is my fiances and is a single shot so it can take any bullet but i believe it is a 1 in 9. Are faster or slower twist rates general better for cast?? If i can get inch and a half groups at 100 yards i would be pretty happy as my marlin is open sighted anyway.

[Johnch]

Are faster or slower twist rates general better for cast?? If i can get inch and a half groups at 100 yards i would be pretty happy as my marlin is open sighted anyway.

Slower twist rates are normaly more cast freindly

John

[onondaga]

You mention your Zipper is 1:14. I believe that slow twist will be best with the lightest bullets you can get like 46-50 grains and you would lose a little accuracy with heavier bullets like 70 grains.

Gary

[Doc Highwall]

The 219Zipper has the same twist as the 22-250 and should handle the RCBS 55grain bullet very well.

[Larry Gibson]

The 14" twist will handle up through 60 gr RN cast bullets. I've found 225462, a RN Lovern design, to be excellent in 12 and 14" twist barrels for 2000+ fps loads. That bullet should be an excellent choice for the lever action Marlin in 219 Ziper. It also works very well in the 9 & 10" twist barrels in the 1800 - 2000 fps range.

Larry Gibson

[WyomingWhitetail]

right now the molds that have my attention are the RCBS 55 gr FN, the lyman 44 gr RN, and the lyman 55 gr FN. These all look as if they would work very well in a lever action.

[Larry Gibson]

The 225462 will work just as well in the lever action and will shoot better at HV than any of the others.

Larry Gibson

[Bullshop]

Today using the New NOE copy of the Lyman #107 and Lotak lube I achieved 3440 fps at 1.5 moa.
Is that what your talking about?

[WyomingWhitetail]

wow now that is truely impressive, i think im going to call you the god of little boolits from now on. now please tell me more about your success, what gun, caliber, powder, ect. please!