@ what point

[white eagle]

is it fruitless to use cast boolits
say for like a 270-280 type cal
it would seem to me that these were designed for more speed
than cast can give for these cals and using cast would seem to
severely handicap or limit their potential
are there cals better suited for cast such as the 358 win and 30-30 :Fire: :castmine:

[bowfin]

I guess I would look at what one wishes to accomplish with a particular rifle/cartridge/projectile combination.

I have a 7mm Magnum that I take antelope hunting. I don't see myself using a cast boolit for such a task, and I don't use that rifle for anything else, so you have a point as far as my own needs and wants and wishes.

[Von Gruff]

As a long time user and fan of the 7mm cartridges and the 7x57 in particular, I have to say that my softnosed 160gn boolit at 2415 has acounted for quite a few goat sized animals and I wouldn't hesitate to take a Wapiti with it. I do have a load for a 120gn GS Custom at 3235fps and a 160gn Woodleigh at 2700 but out to 185yds( so far) with the cast SN I have seen no difference in the DRT effect in comparison to the GS or the Woodleigh. I hunt almost exclusively with my cast in the 7x57 now.
This type of expansion and 100% weight retention brings confidence

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/008.jpg

and this result on a mob of goats builds the confidence as well

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Goats-Castsoftnose006.jpg

Von Gruff.

[Bullshop]

is it fruitless to use cast boolits
say for like a 270-280 type cal
it would seem to me that these were designed for more speed
than cast can give for these cals and using cast would seem to
severely handicap or limit their potential
are there cals better suited for cast such as the 358 win and 30-30 :Fire: :castmine:

Well you could look at it that way or you could look at it as the cast loads adding versatility to the cartridges.
You know like the grouse loads Col. Whelen used to speak of for his high power big game rifles.

[Von Gruff]

On the other hand the 270 is too small and would be innefective for much more than 50 yd paper plinking.

:mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen::mrgreen:

:kidding:


Von Gruff.

[btroj]

I view cast in some rifles a way to get a chance to shoot them with lower cost, lower recoiling loads. Great for summer practice before hunting, teaching a new shooter, or just plain having fun.
I see lots of merit in shooting cast in my 270. I don't see downsides.

Brad

[mpmarty]

Inasmuch as many people shoot cast in .223 I don't see any merit in your position. In most cases a bit of due diligence will produce results equal to jacketed in most calibers. I personally shoot cast in 7.62 Nato at mil spec velocities.

[geargnasher]

Why not, W.E.? Lots of folks shooting cast in their AR platforms in .223. "Better suited" can be true, but that really boils down to the experience, knowledge, and tools of the user more than it does as a general statement. A .30-30 is "better suited" to a beginner boolit caster than, say, a .300 Winchester Magnum or 220 Swift, or even the .243 Winchester with it's almost non-existent neck. Much of the suitability of the .30-30, for example, has to do with the built-in limitations of the cartrige, though. Nobody expects it to shoot 180-grain boolits at 3K fps, so it's easier to have success loading it within its modest limits compared to more powerful or higher-pressure/smaller bore cartridges.

Gear

[canyon-ghost]

How about 7mmTCU launching a 135 grain at about the speed of a 30-06? In cast? For 200 yards from a handgun?
Depends on the hardness of the alloy and a gas check sometimes. Sizing is another area.
Can you do it? I don't know.

Ron

[white eagle]

I don't have a position
my point is like this
if you buy build a custom rifle in say 22 Middlestead ,or 224 TTH are you going to shoot cast out of it ?
merely a question .......

[btroj]

In you original post you stated tha cast "limits their potential". Our view here is that cast improve their potential. I sure don't want to plink with 130s at 3000 fps for long. Not too good for beginners either. Load the 270 Win with cast and it is ideal for both these situations.
Would I want to use cast at max velocities? Nope. In the cartridges cast bullets have a distinct role. The key is to define what YOU feel the potential of the rifle is.

[Elkins45]

I have made it my goal to be a better offhand shooter at 100 yards. I don't need 3000fps practice rounds to do that...in fact the 1800fps cast bullet demands I have a better trigger squeeze and follow through. I'm going to need to burn a LOT of ammo to get better. Having cast bullets to practice with makes my rifle MORE versatile and useful, because I'll be a better shooter as a result of having them available.

[Elkins45]

and this result on a mob of goats builds the confidence as well

http://i667.photobucket.com/albums/vv39/VonGruff/Goats-Castsoftnose006.jpg

Von Gruff.

Wow...it blew their heads clean off!

:D

[nanuk]

Wow...it blew their heads clean off!

:D

and their guts out....

[nanuk]

As a long time user and fan of the 7mm cartridges and the 7x57 in particular, I have to say that my softnosed 160gn boolit at 2415 has acounted for quite a few goat sized animals and I wouldn't hesitate to take a Wapiti with it......
This type of expansion and 100% weight retention brings
Von Gruff.

VG: I have developed a similar mantra... A heavy for caliber boolit at 2400fps is near perfect in my world.... and the 7x57 seems perfect for that.

unfortunately, I have a 270.. and as you say, it is too small! I may be doomed to full length GasChecks

guess I'll give it away, and scrounge for a beat up old 7mm Mouser, cause I really do want to shoot cast!

[Three44s]

Beyond what would seem logical ........... a .243 win is a great cast boolit platform ....... so an arbitrary limit is senseless.

I look at the question this way:

It will be impractical to shoot lead when it's no longer available.

Otherwise ......... go for it!


Three 44s

[koehn,jim]

I have a very nice accurate load in 7mm and a good one in 25-06. I do not feel cast bullets harm their potential at all. I also shoot a 22-250 with jacketed only. Different rifles will like different ammo. I have tried many different combinations and found cast to work better in some and jacketed in others. I am working up some 30 caliber loads to see how they work. Nanuk if you are giving that 270 away I ll take it off your hands.

[Char-Gar]

Cast bullet in any caliber are fun, accurate and cheap. They can also be very useful in the field. The use of cast bullets in the field requires a change of thinking and attitude toward rifles and what they can and should do.

[white eagle]

sorry I asked

[Nrut]

sorry I asked
Don't be..
I have a .270 and I wouldn't consider using cast in it..
I also have a .35 Whelen and I wouldn't consider using jacketed in it..

[badbob454]

I like cast because the "man" cant take it away from me .. I will always have lead heat source and some boolit molds no serial no. On the bullets, and cant be governed i fear the government that wants to take away our 2nd amendment freedom ... , oh yeah i cast for all my guns from 800 fps to 2400 fps fast enough 9 mm makarov , to a 45/70 gov and everything in between

[onesonek]

If I had a good idea that I could get 23- 2400 out my 7BRM with 160 gr., I would might invest in a mold for it. But even though it is a maximized 7-30 case, in a 1 in 9" twist and it's rather small capacity, might make that tough to do.

[Von Gruff]

sorry I asked

WE, I was just chain yanking with the 270 is too small remark. RCBS makes a 145gn mould for the 270 that I wouldn't hesitate to experiment with and if I had a 270 I would look at a custom mould in the 150-160gn range and go for it. My 7x57 has a 9 in twist and while it has a min spec chamber and throat it shoots very well. A 270 with a bit of thought should be as good as any other of the under 35 cals for hunting or plinking.

Von Gruff.

[warf73]

I have several rifles that I would NEVER shoot cast boolits in. May it be because of the platform the rifle is in or the rifle was never bought with the intent of shooting cast boolits. My list consists of these calibers .204 Ruger, 22 Cheetah, 223 Mini Carb, 7mm-08, 300Wby, and 308.

There are a few rifles that will never get jacketed bullets shot threw them again 7.62X54R, 30 carbine, 445sm, 45lc.

That’s my short list of will's and will not’s and I have a reason for each. Some people might have different reason to use cast in some of the cals I listed on the not list. Good for them and they have their reason to use them as I have a reason not use them.

Thats the best part of this hobby we can all be different and be right.

[Bret4207]

sorry I asked

You asked for opinions. You got your answer. Consider that to a lot of us cast is about all we shoot, it's more than a hobby. it's a passion. Gear said it best- jacketed makes it EASIER. Sdme of us aren't put off by the challenge. OTH, if you prefer jacketed there's nothing wrong with that at all and I wouldn't take any answer in that way.

[cbrick]

I have several rifles that I would NEVER shoot cast boolits in. My list consists of these calibers .204 Ruger, 22 Cheetah, 223 Mini Carb, 7mm-08, 300Wby, and 308.

Well, to each their own. Both of my 7-08's (Two Rem 700's) and both of my 308's (One rifle, one XP-100 15") are incredible cast shooters, can't speak to the other calibers you list.

As Bret said, its a passion. I haven't bought, loaded or used a jacketed bullet in 25 years or more. If its in my safe its a cast shooter plain and simple.

H@ll, anybody can buy a bullet, the challenge, the fun and most of all the satisfaction is in making one with your own two hands that does as well or better.

Rick

[Nrut]

I have several rifles that I would NEVER shoot cast boolits in. May it be because of the platform the rifle is in or the rifle was never bought with the intent of shooting cast boolits. My list consists of these calibers .204 Ruger, 22 Cheetah, 223 Mini Carb, 7mm-08, 300Wby, and 308.

There are a few rifles that will never get jacketed bullets shot threw them again 7.62X54R, 30 carbine, 445sm, 45lc.

That’s my short list of will's and will not’s and I have a reason for each. Some people might have different reason to use cast in some of the cals I listed on the not list. Good for them and they have their reason to use them as I have a reason not use them.

That's the best part of this hobby we can all be different and be right.
Well said warf73..

[birdadly]

I'm glad you asked the question! I'm just starting out and so will be tackling 45ACP for starters in the upcoming months, but when I decided to start this adventure I also had in mind my 280 Rem 700 that I bought last year for deer hunting. I have not looked into that caliber yet on these forums and aren't sure if it's possible to hunt with it and cast boolits, but am hoping so! ...else I'll have to buy a different gun to cast for after I get proficient with the 45 :)

Last year was my first hunting year. My brother's been hunting for about 10 years and he has a friend reload FMJ rounds for hunting with his 280. I bought the same caliber hoping that I could take over reloading for him and hoping too that we could both shoot cast from them! It would be something nice to do together on a weekend visit.

[white eagle]

VG
oh yeah no problem
Warf capped it
basically what I was getting at
I have a 220 swift ai and by using cast for it I am cutting
the velocity in half
I used the 270,280 as a reference
it seems to me that some rifles were meant for cast because
of their velocity limitations is all
just never seems to fail that some want to twist things around and start controversy

[canyon-ghost]

The limitation of cast is a wheelweight thing, water quenched harder boolits can be pushed faster. Some old loads from Lyman Cast Bullet Manual are all Linotype. Hardness isn't the whole story, twist rate effects it too. With the right twist rate and bullet hardness, cast is wonderful. Without that combination, might be better off to reach for the factory stuff.

The limitation of j-boolits, the copper ones, is barrel life. They wear on the barrel more than cast lead. I have both but usually shoot all lead. The time I loaded everything with j-word boolits? The Mountain Lion report, big cat walked right into town. Too big an emergency sent me scrambling for what I knew I had.
Ron

[dnepr]

as much as I like cast boolits and the fun that comes with them there are times when a j-word is the fast easy solution , I still want to get Paper Patched boolits to work in my 250-3000 at max velocity but I have some work to do and some learning along the way, till then my J-word loads will allow me to hunt with this rifle

[smoked turkey]

I tend to agree with white eagle. In the end it is a personal preference based on what the shooter wants out of a particular rifle or handgun. In my case I love to cast and I love to shoot cast. I have shot cast out of my 300 wby, but I don't make a habit of it. It is my long shooter when I need precision and controlled expansion out there long distance. That is just my feeling and the next 300 wby shooter may want to take all his game with cast. That is perfectly ok and he probably can do a superb job with it. That is what makes this hobby so much fun! Just my $.02.

[mpmarty]

If it don't shoot cast it don't live in my safe.

[303Guy]

... I still want to get Paper Patched boolits to work in my 250-3000 at max velocity but I have some work to do ...Please keep me informed. I have a 25-303 and want to do the same thing. I have made a mould and fired a few PPCB's in it.


I have a 220 swift ai and by using cast for it I am cutting
the velocity in half I don't see why. I should think 2500fps and maybe a little more would be quite in reach. Remember that a cast boolit can be heavier than a j-word with the same length. What is the twist rate in your 220 Swift? With that size case you should be able to drive a plain base boolit to some considerable velocity and a heavy for caliber one at that. I don't have a Swift so I am only supposing. But I bet I'm not too far off the mark! I have an idea of building a 22-303 using a 22rf barrel specifically for cast. That would be a rimmed twin of the 220 Swift. I am thinking of 60gr boolits - smooth sided (to keep them short enough for the 1-in-16 twist. And to make them easier to cast).

[turbo1889]

Well, I don't think that cast lead boolits really ever become "pointless" in just about any conventional firearm.

However, I do believe there comes a point where the case capacity to bore size ratio becomes so large that trying to obtain near maximum load ballistics with conventional lube groove and GC type cast lead boolits becomes an exercise in futility. I load cast for a 220-Swift I own and use them as target and light game loads but I have no intentions of trying to get jacketed load performance out of it with conventional lube groove and GC type cast lead boolits. I think it would be a futile exercise to make such an attempt. I could be wrong but the odds of success are so low that for me it isn't worth even trying.

I don't know if that answers your question or not but that is how I see it. Others could point out other cartridges that have a case capacity to bore size ration as bad or worse then the 220-Swift but that is the one I have direct experience with. Off the top of my head an extreme example the 7mm-STW (Shooting Times Western) comes to mind since it was a cartridge originally developed to be loaded using nearly full case loads of cheap mil. surp. 50-BMG ball powders and make off the shelf jacketed 7mm bullets go like a bat out of hell. I don't think it would do very well at all with cast boolit loads that were pushed to full power jacketed load levels. A regular old 7x57 or 7mm-08 would be a much more sensible choice if one intended to shoot a lot of cast loads but if what one had was a 7mm-STW then cast loads would probably still have their place only at no where near the top end performance capabilities of that cartridge.

[Bret4207]

VG
oh yeah no problem
Warf capped it
basically what I was getting at
I have a 220 swift ai and by using cast for it I am cutting
the velocity in half
I used the 270,280 as a reference
it seems to me that some rifles were meant for cast because
of their velocity limitations is all
just never seems to fail that some want to twist things around and start controversy

Instead of thinking of it as cutting the velocity in half, try thinking of it as making the gun more versatile. By using cast you the option of shooting more, of shooting loads less destructive to your barrel, or shooting loads tailored to those areas cast excels- plinking, small game, low noise/recoil, etc.

Cast has limitations, yes. But cast also adds tot he flexibility of a gun.

[btroj]

Instead of thinking of it as cutting the velocity in half, try thinking of it as making the gun more versatile. By using cast you the option of shooting more, of shooting loads less destructive to your barrel, or shooting loads tailored to those areas cast excels- plinking, small game, low noise/recoil, etc.

Cast has limitations, yes. But cast also adds tot he flexibility of a gun.

That is EXACTLY my thinking Bret. If I want to shoot my 270 do I have to shoot full velocity loads? Nope. I can shoot cast. A 140 gr cast at 1700 is a pleasure to shoot. They are plenty accurate to teach a new shooter, plink, or just have fun. None of these are nearly as good with full power loads. Do cast limit the abilities of the cartridge or expand the capabilities?
Why do people seem the think that every cartridge must be loaded to full velocity in every situation?
Hey White Eagle- have you ever shot 38 specials in a 357? Not much different than what we are talking about.

Brad

[pdawg_shooter]

Last year I took my deer with a 200gr cast PP at just a bit over 3000fps. I was using a Savage 116 in 300RUM. I didn't feel under gunned at all.

[Nrut]

Last year I took my deer with a 200gr cast PP at just a bit over 3000fps. I was using a Savage 116 in 300RUM. I didn't feel under gunned at all.
Did you connect?

[1Shirt]

My 7x57 shoots cast like a house on fire with weights from 130 to 175. Don't ignore the 7MM Rem either, big case but fun to shoot w/cast, and mine will shoot almost equal to my 7x57. Bret is right, it is a passion! You either have it or you don't, and if you don't, shoot the high priced stuff!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[white eagle]

pp is a whole nuther matter entirely
more along the lines of a paper jacket
my swift is ackley version pushes a 52-53 gr bullet 4500 fps
but like turbo said
fruitless (for me) endeavor
heavier bullets are fine for some cals but with my 14 twist barrel
they are not the best choice
I do have better guns more suited for cast
some very interesting pov though

[pdawg_shooter]

Did you connect?

Yep, he was 122 paces quartering away. Aimed for the off shoulder. Bullet cut a rib going in, got both lungs and broke the off side shoulder. He hobbled a couple of steps and dropped. Exit hole was a little bigger than a quarter.

[geargnasher]

pp is a whole nuther matter entirely
more along the lines of a paper jacket If you feel that way, then I guess PP is across the line of "fruitless" as far as you're concerned. Do you consider the gas check to be across the line of fruitful as well? It's all a matter of perspective.
my swift is ackley version pushes a 52-53 gr bullet 4500 fps
but like turbo said
fruitless (for me) endeavor
heavier bullets are fine for some cals but with my 14 twist barrel
they are not the best choice
I do have better guns more suited for cast Part of the fun, in fact most of the fun for me is figuring a way around the barriers that a less-than-ideal platform has to shooting cast boolits well. You may choose to start with a more suitable platform in the first place, and both of us would be right in our own way.
some very interesting pov though

I don't really look at it as pointless beyond a certain point, Bret covered it pretty well.

Gear

[6.5 mike]

padawgs right about being able to reach top end perfromance with pp'ed. Most of us start out looking for a cheap way to shoot, little bit of powder, plain based boolit= 1000 fps, this is fun. Now what else can I do with it, gas check, little harded alloy, more powder = 1200/1800 fps. Ok, lets try for 2000/2400, harder alloy, better lube, more care in boolit selection/fit, whatever else is needed to get this to work. Now to the last step, correctly sized core, correct alloy, patchs wrapped correctly, all the players in line. BINGO, factory specs with lead.
I do not think this is limiting myself with all the different ways to reach the point I'm looking for. And yes some guns are more suited to cast then others, but with the help here & the selection of mould makers availble, it would be real hard not to find the suitable tools to make most anything work, just my .02. :popcorn:

[geargnasher]

Mike, what a SUPERB perspective. +1.

Gear

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
I shoot about 1,000 squib loads, & 1,000 mid-range loads of of my 7MM/06 a summer. Great fun, great practice.
Wish I could get 24-2500"/s with accuracy, but so far haven't.:Fire::Fire:

[XWrench3]

if you are looking for top fuel performance out of every trigger pull, then you need to run top fuel. but, if more trips down the track (more fun) is your goal, then you may not necessarily need to do it @ 330+mph. you can make 50 trips down the track in a super comp rail, for the cost of one top fuel trip. and i wouldnt call a super comp a slow, no fun ride!

[pdawg_shooter]

HI,
I shoot about 1,000 squib loads, & 1,000 mid-range loads of of my 7MM/06 a summer. Great fun, great practice.
Wish I could get 24-2500"/s with accuracy, but so far haven't.:Fire::Fire:

Use air cooled WWs , size them to bore diameter +.001/.0015, give them 2 wraps of 16# paper and it is easy.