32-20 to 25-20

[leftiye]

Has anybody sucessfully necked 32-20 down to 25-20? I haven't (and yes, I tried). The brass is so thin that instead of compressing into a smaller diameter, it folds or creases. Any surplus lube makes multiple grease dents at the base of the shoulder. Too much force (no way you can do it in one step) collapses the shoulder (pay attention - the shoulder is very gradual on these) or should I say telescopes it. Starline doesn't make 25-20 brass. Waaah!

[troy_mclure]

how about expanding .218 bee up to .25-20?

[Three44s]

I have no experience with the exact combo you are working on ... however, last winter I did some .30-30 to .25-35 and I am sure those are heavier walled cases but there are parrallels.

First I used a lube called Imperial Die Sizing Wax. "A little goes a long ways" with that stuff.

And second it takes a multiple step.

I still get creases but if you limit them ..... they'll shoot out.

What I would try is a lube ..... size a little .... clean off the shoulder ........ bunch of Q-tips?? and relube .... you use your fingers with the above mentioned wax and set the die down a bit more.

At best, it will be a labor of love ..........

I ended up buying some new appropriate cases from a fellow member here ........... The same might come your way?

I bought a bunch of .25-20 for a neighbor when I was working with his rifle so it does come up at Midway and such from time to time as well.

Best of luck

Three 44s

[midnight]

Why reform? Midway has it in stock for $32.49/100.

Bob

[9.3X62AL]

My experience with both Rem and W-W 25-20 WCF brass has shown it to not be as weak and thin as the 32-20 WCF brass from both companies. LOTS less hassles with the 25-20 brass.

Not certain which rifle you're dealing with in 25-20 caliber, but be advised that the 1988-1992 series Marlin 94 examples were chambered "long"--if you keep resetting the shoulder back with the sizing die, brass life will end at the third or fourth refill. I set the full-length sizer die to just "kiss" the shoulder of the casing, and NO MORE. Brass lasts 10-12 firings that way, and if I annealed necks it would REALLY last forever. Most of my brass death sequences are now due to neck or case mouth splits, rather than head seps.

Fun caliber, in a fun little levergun. Marie and the kids LOVE shooting it, and gas checks & primers are the principal cost items. Load cost is in the 11-12 cents per round ballpark, which is slightly over half the price of 17 HMR, which it parallels in performance on little critters. Past 125 yards, the 25-20 is FAR more decisive. A more perfect jackrabbit-to-coyote levergun caliber has yet to be created.

[Wayne Smith]

I just did just over 100 older Winchester cases. Lost about 10% and lubed with graphite about every other one. ANY, and I mean anything unusual on the neck of the 32-20 case causes a crease. Mine had been somewhat brittle when trimmed and some had tiny to noticable tears on the edge of the neck. Since they were that brittle I annealed them in my lead pot.

Each tear became a crease. Would it have if I had not annealed them? I don't know. Would I have had other problems sizing them if I hadn't annealed? Probably. The point is that my cases were not ideal examples to attempt this sizing and I still only completely ruined about 10%. I'm using cases with small creases. Do they affect accuracy? Probably. I have at least 70 cases out of the 100 that are undamaged so I intend to find out.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Nearly forty years ago I was gifted with a large quantity of .32/20 cases, even some with Savage headstamps. At the time I had a Win. 1892 in .25/20. A common hardware store 7/8-14 X 2 bolt with a blind hole drilled from the end toward the head made a poor man's forming die. The hole was an intermediate diameter splitting the difference between the outside neck diameter of the two cartridges. A countersink made with a tapered stone in the drill motor provided an easy entry for the parent case into the die. Final forming was done in the FL .25/20 die. No cases were lost in this project, which I called ".270/20" at the intermediate stage.

[leftiye]

Ah thinks I'll jus' buy some 25-20.

[Mk42gunner]

Ah thinks I'll jus' buy some 25-20.

Much easier that way, as long as the brass is available.

Last year I couldn't find any .25-20 brass to feed my new Husqvarna. The only .32-20 I could find was Remington Nickel plated.

I sized it down using the seating die as an itermediate step; it worked okay albiet with a 10-12% loss due to neck creases. If you decide to do this anyway, make double sure the necks are round before ever trying to squeeze them down.

Shortly after gaining all that experience; I found a full box of WW .25-20 brass, an almost full box of Remington factory loads and a 311316 for $40.00 at a gunshow.

I am now set for quite a while since my .25-20 is a single shot.

Robert

[wrecksj]

A number of ways to do this successfully. Here are some links to review:

Using sizing die: http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/384197-case-forming-25-20-32-20-brass-pic-heavy.html
Using a handmade riser/caseholder for intermediate sizing to .270 Win: http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/26002-25-20-reloaders-52.html#post962565
Visuals/experience from using both the .270 intermediate sizing AND RCBS form/trim die: http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/26002-25-20-reloaders.html#post1929274

I suggest that you don't wait around for .25-20 brass; it ain't coming back anytime soon.

[UBER7MM]

how about expanding .218 bee up to .25-20?

This works. The 218 Bee is a bit longer which give one room to cut it to size. 32-20 is really too short.
As others have stated, 25WCF brass is expensive and hard to come by. That Midway price sounds reasonable by today's standards.

I hope this helps,

[wrecksj]

Much easier that way, as long as the brass is available.

Last year I couldn't find any .25-20 brass to feed my new Husqvarna. The only .32-20 I could find was Remington Nickel plated.

I sized it down using the seating die as an itermediate step; it worked okay albiet with a 10-12% loss due to neck creases. If you decide to do this anyway, make double sure the necks are round before ever trying to squeeze them down.

Shortly after gaining all that experience; I found a full box of WW .25-20 brass, an almost full box of Remington factory loads and a 311316 for $40.00 at a gunshow.

I am now set for quite a while since my .25-20 is a single shot.

Robert

Just make sure that you use something, like a 32-20 M die, or a Lee Universal Expander, or really anything round that you can push just a tad in to the mouth of the .32-20 to make sure that it is round, before going into the seating die or any other intermediary sizer. I did this on a recommendation from another gent, and I have eliminated the creased neck issue completely.

[leftiye]

how about expanding .218 bee up to .25-20?

Seems they stopped making it. It's rarer than proverbial "Hen's teeth."

[Mk42gunner]

I've got one fifty round box full of .218 Bee "mystery loads" (I have never had a Bee and have no idea what is in them) that need pulled down. I have not attempted to make them into .25-20 because with the difficulties I had with the .32-20 operation, I really don't want to try pushing the shoulder back.

Plus, I might just come up with a .218 Bee someday.

Robert

[9.3X62AL]

Seems they stopped making it. It's rarer than proverbial "Hen's teeth."

Haven't tried it, not having a 218 Bee.....but I imagine reforming the 218 from 25-20s is an easier and more successful process than reworking the 32-20 to either of the smaller calibers. I have a good stock of 25-20 on hand, but I hope the makers don't abandon it. I think 32-20 and 44-40 will stay around a while, CAS folks shoot enough of it to at least keep Starline in the game. 38-40 isn't a huge rework from 44-40. But if we lose the 25-20, 2 calibers will then be unobtainium.

[wrecksj]

Has anybody sucessfully necked 32-20 down to 25-20? I haven't (and yes, I tried). The brass is so thin that instead of compressing into a smaller diameter, it folds or creases. Any surplus lube makes multiple grease dents at the base of the shoulder. Too much force (no way you can do it in one step) collapses the shoulder (pay attention - the shoulder is very gradual on these) or should I say telescopes it. Starline doesn't make 25-20 brass. Waaah!

See my three part series at Marlin Owners. Links:

Post/Part #1 -> Additional .32-20 to .25-20 Progress and Enhancements (#1) (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/26002-25-20-reloaders.html#post1931067)
Post/Part #2 -> Additional .32-20 to .25-20 Progress and Enhancements (#2) (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/26002-25-20-reloaders.html#post1931073)
Post/Part #3 -> Additional .32-20 to .25-20 Progress and Enhancements (#3) (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/26002-25-20-reloaders.html#post1931111)

[pworley1]

I have had good results using a cut off 310 7mm die first before the 25 20 sizer. I also remove the expander stem from the 25 20 die when forming.

[leftiye]

See my three part series at Marlin Owners. Links:

Post/Part #1 -> Additional .32-20 to .25-20 Progress and Enhancements (#1) (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/26002-25-20-reloaders.html#post1931067)
Post/Part #2 -> Additional .32-20 to .25-20 Progress and Enhancements (#2) (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/26002-25-20-reloaders.html#post1931073)
Post/Part #3 -> Additional .32-20 to .25-20 Progress and Enhancements (#3) (http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/26002-25-20-reloaders.html#post1931111)

Salaam, Salaam, Salaam!

[wrecksj]

I have had good results using a cut off 310 7mm die first before the 25 20 sizer. I also remove the expander stem from the 25 20 die when forming.

That works equally, as you shared. My only observation is that there are smoother curves machined into the RCBS form-trim prior to the FL sizer. I really had to get one, because I found a slight flaw in my .25-20 FL sizer which constantly caught on the lip of the case mouth. The form-trim avoids that for me, and I saved $20 in postage, and probably a month waiting, to return it to the maker for repair or replacement.

As an alternative, please visit this link on the Marlin Owners site:

http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/reloading/26002-25-20-reloaders-52.html#post962565 from 2520WHV.

This device, which is mind-numbingly simple to make, eliminates the need to cut any die to get an intermediate form of the brass.

[wrecksj]

Starline .25-20

Update on .32-20. They had 21,000 on Monday, and they are all gone today. While on the phone, I asked them if they had the tooling to make .25-20; they don't.

Given that situation, I would offer to form and size for anyone who does not want to do it themselves. PM me and we'll talk about it.

wrecksj (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/member.php?38088-wrecksj)

[bbqncigars]

I had good results from using the Redding 25-20 Form/Trim die. The resulting case is a wee bit shorter by a few thousandths than the real thing.

[9.3X62AL]

Update on .32-20. They had 21,000 on Monday, and they are all gone today.

Sheesh! That is 4K per day, in a caliber that has had very few new guns made since prior to WWII. I'm glad I have enough of both 25-20 and 32-20 brasses to hold me for the foreseeable future.

[LuckySavage]

Just Googled 25-20 brass- Looks like there is 500 available here for $193. Bet you could find someone to buy the extra you don't need...

http://www.lohmanarms.com:80/product_p/remu2520b.htm=

[9.3X62AL]

Almost 39 cents each? I'll pass.

[leftiye]

You should see what .218 is going for on gunbreaker - $1.40 per each! .80 is way in the rear view.

[9.3X62AL]

I guess I shouldn't be surprised at this pricing, in the era of $75-$100 mass-market rimfire bricks. It is NUTS out there.

[rockyhound]

I called Lohman today and they don't have any 218 Bee or 25-20 even though the info on their site said in stock.

[quack1]

I'm a little late to the thread, but I formed 25-20 from 32-20 last month with 100% success. First I ran the cases over the expander to make sure the necks were perfectly round, then annealed the necks. Then I took the seating stem out of the bullet seating die and ran each slightly lubed case in. That resulted in the necks getting sized down to what looked to be 27-28 caliber for about 2/3 of their length. Then I lightly lubed again and ran them up into the full length sizing die in small increments until completely sized. I used lube sparingly and during the full length sizing would just re-distribute the lube on the neck with my fingers a few times between increments. I simply used RCBS case lube for all forming. I did get a couple small lube dents on the first few I formed, while I was figuring how much lube was needed. Turned out to be less then I thought and after adjusting, never dented another shoulder. I missed annealing one case, (it rolled away on the bench), and it took a lot more force on the press handle to form then the annealed ones.

[tomon]

A vendor here does it, out of new Starline brass. He is shutting down for a few weeks due to a surgery, but will resume. Type "Grumpa" into the search here.

[GRUMPA]

When I do those I run them through 2 intermediate form dies followed by the sizer die. So far I've done just over 1.3K with another 1K to do. The first thing I noticed when doing those (a bit late) is if the case mouth is distorted in any way what so ever the case mouth buckles even though I anneal them first. So far I've lost about 120pcs from split case mouths with creases being the major reject problem. So the way I see it 1% loss which isn't all that bad in my mind. But the 1 thing that's a must have for me is the L.E.Wilson case gauge...