Research continues...a few more questions please, veteran casters

[bullpen7979]

Recently, I started a thread regarding getting the first mold for the CZ P01 9mm.

This one was suggested:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=916523

This is the Lee 6 cav 358-125 RF. This has been reported to produce good results.

I've been lurking enough to know this is no guarantee that it will do well for my gun...

I have tried slugging my barrel, and for some reason, I can't seem to get it right.
I had a few lead pointed nose slugs I got from a local gun show several weeks ago.
I put Rem oil all over the slug and all over the inside barrel, and I could only knock the slug in just far enough to engage the rifling on the breech side. Didn't even get rifling marks past the lube groove. Is this sufficient? How does one brace the barrel when pounding the slug in? I didn't want to damage the crown, so I was reticent to put that on anything resembling a hard surface and then hit the slug.

I guess my thought at this point would be to ask if anybody out there happens to have this mold, and further, be willing to cast/size a few to whatever you are using in your 9 and USPS me a few to load and try out? I would gladly cover postage/other expenses.

If I have gleaned a "bottom line" from reading, would it be correct to say that to avoid leading problems, one should shoot the biggest boolit that will chamber/feed reliably? Or, (as it were), is there more to it than size?

[mooman76]

That's why I like using soft lead round balls slightly larger than the bore size. Works much easier.

[bullpen7979]

I wasn't able to find anything like that. All I found were size too big.

[Atakawow]

I can tell my PO1 will not feed those bullets. Mine shoots bullets sized to .356. It may work for you, but why not get a bullet designed for an auto? Something like these:

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=658356

or

http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=141131

[giz189]

Get some large size fishing weights. Make sure to get the lead ones though.

[onondaga]

When you get the right size piece of soft pure lead for slugging, grease the barrel heavily, even Vasoline is fine and grease the ball also. I use a leather mallet to pound the ball flush. once it is flush I use a brass rod and tap it with the mallet, after the first inch it is easy.

If you are having a hard time starting the ball it isn't pure soft lead. With pure soft lead you should be able to do this on your lap with a handgun.

Gary

[Larry Gibson]

bullpen7979

Quite frankly I am of the opinion that the 358-125-RF is a very poor choice for the 9mm. That cowboy action light weight bullet made for .38s might be made to work but why (?) when there are so many quality 9mm designs available. I suggest you get the Lee 356-120-TC, cast them of WW + 2% tin, lube with a good 50/50 lube like Javelina, size them at .357, load over 4 gr of Bullseye and go shooting.

Larry Gibson

[Blammer]

If you're having trouble slugging the barrel. Don't!

Size and lube some of your boolits, seat them in a case, (no powder, no primer) and see if they'll chamber. If they don't then you know you'll need to size them a bit smaller. If they do, load up a few to shoot, see how they do. You may be surprised!

I have a few guns I've never slugged and they shoot just fine.

Plus, the easy trick to get leading out of a barrel is to use a few strands of chorboy (the copper one) on a cleaning patch and it'll all wipe out easy.

[fecmech]

I would second Larrys recommendation of the Lee 120TC. That is a very accurate bullet that feeds well in anything and usually drops .358 out of the molds. That is the TC with the lube groove not the tumble lube version.

[prickett]

If I have gleaned a "bottom line" from reading, would it be correct to say that to avoid leading problems, one should shoot the biggest boolit that will chamber/feed reliably? Or, (as it were), is there more to it than size?


I think that truly sums up the whole "slugging" suggestion. Getting the correct size is crucial, but, slugging is only partially helpful. Once you've successfully slugged the barrel, you still have to determine which size bullet produces the least amount of leading. I slugged my barrel, but had to up the bullet diameter by .002 to stop leading.

I think a better way would be to just start with a .358" bullet and see if it feeds and leaves the barrel lead free (seems like the majority of the folks suggest .358" for 9mm's). If so, you are done. If it doesn't feed, try a .357" bullet. Does that feed? Does that lead the barrel? If it feeds, but leads the barrel, or doesn't feed at all, you need a different bullet shape and start back at the .358". Eventually you end up with something that both feeds and doesn't lead.

Unfortunately, this gets expensive, because you need a .358 and .357 sizer. And, you may need to purchase multiple molds.

I went through this process with my CZ-75. I tried the bullet you mentioned (.358 RNFP), the .358 SWC, and finally the .356 TC.

The first design has such a gradual ogive that the oversized bullets (.358") contacted the lands unless the bullet was seated very deeply. Sized .357 resulted in leading.

The second design resulted in numerous failures to feed due to the short OAL. When lengthened, the bullet again contacted the lands, causing failures to go to battery. Sized .357" resulted in leading.

Finally, I bought the .356 TC and beagled it with aluminum tape, resulting in a bullet sizable to .358. Due to its fairly steep ogive, I get a long boolit (preventing feed jams) that doesn't contact the lands (iow, success).

PM me if you need samples in any or all of those three designs. I can size them to either .358 and/or .357 also.

Best of luck - it is a long road, but worth it.

P.S. Also, consider the accuracy of one boolit/sizing vs. another. So, if 2 boolits/sizings work, you should then use better accuracy as the deciding factor.

[mooman76]

If you still want to slug your barrel and still need slugs, PM me an address and I'll send you some. I slug like onondaga does only I use a plastic headed mallet. You don't want to use a metal hammer because it's too easy to ding the muzzle no matter how careful you are. And like he said once you get it started it past the muzzle it goes in easy.

[MtGun44]

I have had excellent results with .356-120TC sized to .357 or .358 in many different brands
of 9mms. Avoid TL designs with 9mm, as it is a somewhat marginal lube system and 9mm
is very demanding. Not that it cannot work, but I think experience here indicates a lot of
trouble with TL designs in 9mm.

Bill

[geargnasher]

Prickett, alloy hardness, toughness, and malleability together with powder selection could also be manipulated to have a large effect on leading, loaded diameter, and accuracy.

Gear

[prickett]

Prickett, alloy hardness, toughness, and malleability together with powder selection could also be manipulated to have a large effect on leading, loaded diameter, and accuracy.

Gear

Great point Gear. In fact, now that I've established my diameter and boolit design, I'm about to seek the minimum allowable hardness to prevent leading.

To the OP, all my experimenting was using straight clip on WW's (water dropped - which I do for convenience more than anything). Given that, the alloy is sufficiently hard that hardness shouldn't be a factor. I've been told elsewhere on this site that 1/2 WW, 1/2 lead should be hard enough. I'm now going to try that out, as I can get lead cheaper than WW's.

[shoez]

bullpen7979

Quite frankly I am of the opinion that the 358-125-RF is a very poor choice for the 9mm. That cowboy action light weight bullet made for .38s might be made to work but why (?) when there are so many quality 9mm designs available. I suggest you get the Lee 356-120-TC, cast them of WW + 2% tin, lube with a good 50/50 lube like Javelina, size them at .357, load over 4 gr of Bullseye and go shooting.

Larry Gibson

I actually had that Lee 356 120 grain TC mold a few years ago. It was my first attempt to load cast boolits in the 9mm. Mine keyholed. They measured in at .356 also. I sent that one back to Lee. After reading an old article by Mike Venturino, I tried Lee's .358 105 grain swc. They actually come out of the mold at .359" so I sized them to .358" and they worked and fed great from my Ruger P95. But I never sized my barrel. It may have been oversized.

[geargnasher]

Great point Gear. In fact, now that I've established my diameter and boolit design, I'm about to seek the minimum allowable hardness to prevent leading.

To the OP, all my experimenting was using straight clip on WW's (water dropped - which I do for convenience more than anything). Given that, the alloy is sufficiently hard that hardness shouldn't be a factor. I've been told elsewhere on this site that 1/2 WW, 1/2 lead should be hard enough. I'm now going to try that out, as I can get lead cheaper than WW's.

Hardness is always a factor. Often it's a factor that actually matters quite a bit, sometimes not so much. My experience has shown me that the alloy needs to be reasonably suited to the pressures involved, or you can have leading issues no matter what the size. Too hard can be as bad or even worse than too soft.

Don't make the mistake of minimizing the effect water-dropping, or any drastic change to alloy temper or composition, can have. You say you do it out of convenience, but if you found a more convenient way to air cool your boolits you might find suddenly that your formula doesn't work any more. It's a pretty drastic change when you consider you might be taking an 11 bhn alloy and making it 21 or more, or a 13 bhn alloy and making it 25. That can have tremendous consequences on what will or will not lead in your gun, what shoots straight, and what will cause higher pressure with the same powder and charge weight.

Here's an example. You go to .358" with a really hard, brittle boolit. It works for you with most powders, probably. If you were using a hot load with slow powder, it might lead the first part of the barrel because it isn't malleable enough to obturate the bore well until the pressure finally builds up. If you're using a fast powder/mild load, it's probably fine, and might be with medium-burn rate powders too (just speculating based on trends I have seen with my guns). Now, if you went to air-cooled straight ww alloy, you might find that .357" would shoot straight and not lead at all in anything from Bullseye to Blue Dot. Maybe. Or you might have to switch back to .358" for the hotter stuff. Then again you might find that your dies and brass don't work with .357" boolits, but if you loaded with my dies that expand the case more you could shoot WD .357's all day with any powder on your shelf with no leading. Maybe.

My point is that you have established your boolit diameter for that boolit alloy, temper, and style. Change any one of them enough and that diameter could be out the window with your pet load. Same thing if you change powder burn rates or charge levels very much. It's all a balance.

Gear

[Recluse]

Avoid TL designs with 9mm, as it is a somewhat marginal lube system and 9mm is very demanding. Not that it cannot work, but I think experience here indicates a lot of trouble with TL designs in 9mm.

Bill

+1

I've given up on TL boolits for 9mm. Right now, my best shooter is the 105SWC sized to .357. But it's a plinking boolit.

Will have to break down one of these days and try the 120TC. I've just been so danged snakebit on 9mm and cast that I'd just as soon put a Democrat for President bumpersticker on my truck as to go through all that pain again. [smilie=b:

And this from a guy who always crows about "enjoying the journey more than the destination." Still, reckon I'm going to have to break down and give it another run.

:coffee:

[JIMinPHX]

9mm barrels seem to vary in diameter more than most other calibers. I would certainly try to measure the groove diameter some way before choosing a boolit diameter to start with. As has been said, a soft lead ball & a good supply of grease are the best tools for the job, but if you need to, use another method to get some sort of measurement, then do what you have to do.

I've drilled a hole in a 2x4 & poured pure lead into that to make a slug before. the slug comes out looking ugly with a bunch of surface imperfections, but it works as a slug. If you can't do that for some reason, then at least try pouring some candle wax in the barrel, then knock that out & see what it measures. If you stuff a cleaning patch in the barrel, about 3/4" from the end, then you should be able to pour a short wax casting of the bore. It's not as good as a lead slug, but at least it's something.

[bpratl]

Melted a clean stick-on wheel weight in a table spoon with a propane torch, warm up mold and fill one cavity. I than squished the casting in a vice to make it slightly fatter and drove it through with a brass rod.

[biker_trash_1340]

I wasn't able to find anything like that. All I found were size too big.

I used a black powder 45cal round ball to slug all my 9mm. Just take the ball and start tapping it with a hammer on the bench turning it as you go. Once you get to the point it will start, lube it and tap it through.

I'm not having any problems casting and shooting the TL in my 9's. (3)
I just have the (Lee TL356-124-2r) sized at .357, WW quenched using Unique and the 45-45-10 lube. So far little to no leading, very accurate.

Also using a (Lee 358-105-SWC) st lubed, sized at .357 so far no problems, just one gun has a hard time feeding the SWC.

I just received the (Lee 356-120-TC) st lubed, in the mail, the price was right. So i'm going to give that a go.

From what I've seen on here, I'm surprised I'm not having all the problems that people are having with loading the 9mm. :-)

[bullpen7979]

I would second Larrys recommendation of the Lee 120TC. That is a very accurate bullet that feeds well in anything and usually drops .358 out of the molds. That is the TC with the lube groove not the tumble lube version.

Can I tumble lube with the lube groove version of the mold? Or would that be a problem? Forgive, I just don't know what I don't know.

[Recluse]

Can I tumble lube with the lube groove version of the mold? Or would that be a problem? Forgive, I just don't know what I don't know.

Absolutely.

In fact, I generally tumble-lube my 105SWC boolits (standard lube groove) and my 358WC boolits with standard grooves with excellent results.

:coffee: