Advice needed

[Kermit2]

On a previous date I had posted regarding sizing and lubing boolits. I need some further advice. I tested some of the boolits in question. They were cast using a 50 / 50 (give or take a little) alloy of wheel weights and soft lead. I used a Lyman 429421 mould. The boolits were run through a .430 sizing die. I barely touched any part of the boolits. I put lube in the lube grooves, but also smeared some on the sides of the boolits. I loaded the boolits in new Starline .44 special cases and used Winchester large pistol primers and 7.0 grains of Unique powder. I crimped using a Lee factory crimp die.

I fired 30 rounds and chronographed them. The average velocity with my Ruger Blackhawk and 4 5/8" barrel was 917 fps. I had leading in the rear half of the barrel. The boolits appeared to be trying to group well though I had two distinct groups a small distance apart. That I suspect may have to do with how I was seeing the target due to light conditions, etc.

I have several more of the 50/50 cast bullets left. I'm considering backing down to 6.5 grains of Unique to see if that helps stop the leading with that alloy, and when those boolits are gone switch to straight wheel weight alloy. I'd really appreciate some more advice on this little problem. Thanks for all your help!

[dverna]

My guess is the bullets are a tad undersized.

Have you slugged the barrel and measured the bullets?

Don

[txbirdman]

I'm with dverna in regard to undersized bullets. Take an appropriate size fishing weigh. Apply an little oil and drive it through you cylinder from the rear. You should be able to get a good reading with a micrometer and go from there. Sometimes you can apply a little liquid alox to the bullets before loading and get good results with slightly undersized bullets.

[geargnasher]

Three things to check.

1. Slug the barrel from the muzzle end all the way through with a soft lead slug, "barrel" fishing sinker, or boolit cast from soft lead. Measure the groove dimension on the slug. Then, slug it again, stopping about an inch from the forcing cone, then drive the slug back out the muzzle end using 2" sections of 3/8" birch dowel rod fed in one after another through the forcing cone through the cylinder opening in the frame until the slug comes back out the muzzle. This second slug will determine amount of "thread choke" present in the forcing cone area by comparing it's measurements to the ones from the first slug that was driven all the way through. "Thread choke" will cause a boolit to be swaged undersized as it passes through the area of the barrel where it threads into the frame and cause a loss of gas seal and leading as it passes beyond the restriction. The restriction is present in many revolvers from the barrel being over-torqued in the frame, causing it to crush down. Firelapping or reaming the throat are common fixes.

2. Slug all of the cylinder throats in the same manner, record the measurements. If any of the throats are smaller than the smallest groove dimension, you will need to ream the cylinder throats or have someone else do it for you.

3. Load, crimp, and pull a boolit from an empty case. Measure it. If it's the same size or smaller than the smallest groove dimension, then you need to do whatever it takes to make is come out of the case .001" or so larger than the groove dimension. That could mean a harder alloy, a larger expander, a mould that casts a larger boolit, or some combination of those things.

I think you're problem lies with a boolit that is too small to begin with, but case swage, cylinder throat swage, and thread choke are three things that can and often do cause the problem you're having even if the boolits are the right size when you go to seat them in the cases.

Please review this carefully again and ask if you have any questions.

Gear

[Char-Gar]

You didn't tell us what kind of lube. Lose that Lee FCD.

[Kermit2]

Bullets were lubed with Lyman Ideal bullet lube. What's the reasoning behind not using the Lee factory crimp die? Thanks.

[462]

Bullets were lubed with Lyman Ideal bullet lube. What's the reasoning behind not using the Lee factory crimp die? Thanks.

Load a dummy round, then pull the boolit. If it measures less than .430" your question will have been answered.

That die creates more problems than any other piece of reloading equipment.

[XWrench3]

the first thing i am going to suggest is the easiest. change lubricants. believe it or not, it can and will make a huge differnce if you get the right one. one easy and cheap one to try is Kendall super blu hi temp automotive grease. just make sure there is none on the bottom of the boolit when you load it, it will foul out the powder. it is readily available at many auto parts stores, and if you find it does not work, grease is always handy around the house. also, I am a big fan of lee fcd's, IN RIFLES! in handguns, i have had them cause me nothing but greif. at least as far as cast boolits go. i believe that they squash the boolit to much. try using the taper crimp that is in your seater die. if that does not do the trick, you will have to go to the next level and actually check the size of the end of the chamber (cylinder), and the bore of the barrel. it is possible that the end of the cylinder is small enough that it is squishing your boolit undersize before it gets to the barrel. i know there is a specific name for this, but i am to tired to think that clearly right now. i just remember checking mine trying to diagnose my problems. also, check to make sure the bore is not constricted where the barrel threads into the frame. mine was. i used abrasive coated bullets to open this up in mine (s&w629). it is still a little tight there, but no where near what it used to be.

[geargnasher]

If Lyman 50/50 isn't working, and you have any interest at all in sorting this out, refer to post #4. Do those things, get familiar with the crucial basic dimensions of your handgun, and learn how to fit the boolit to the gun. Taking the necessary sizing measurements are basic steps to shooting cast boolits in ANY gun, there is a lot more to consider in the fitment department here than there is with jacketed bullets, where you just seat them to the SAAMI spec, see if they chamber, and go shoot.

With cast boolits, fit is first and formost. Creating as perfect a seal between the barrel and the boolit (called "obturation of the bore", where the boolit obturates it by conforming under pressure to seal the bore) is Job One with cast boolits or you're practically guaranteed to have leading.

If your boolit is too small to begin with, or gets that way somehow by the time it makes it into the rifling of the barrel, it will gas-cut and lead. I don't care what lube you use, or how hard it is, it will lead if it's too small or if there is an imbalance between pressure and boolit hardness.

Gear

[MtGun44]

Believe what you have been told. Lee PISTOL FCD is sometimes found to be sizing the
boolit down, too. Very bad.

What lube?? NRA 50-50 is the old standard for a reason. Not that there are not others
that are also good, but PLEASE start with 50-50 and put that variable in the "OK" column
at least at first. After you have some successes, THEN go off and fiddle with lubes.

Try 10 gr Unique, too.

Bill

[Kermit2]

Thanks for all the replies. I don't have a micrometer to take measurements with. Sorry. Out of curiousity I did take one of the boolits in question and then took the Lee factory crimp die and turned it upside down. I dropped the boolit nose first into the factory crimp die. It went to the bottom without touching anything. I turned the die back upright and the boolit just dropped out. No signs on the sides of the boolit that it touched anything. Not scientific by any means but seemed to indicate to me that the factory crimp die is not sizing the boolit if it's not touching it. What say ye? Change to straight wheel weight alloy next? Hate to just write off the mould as it's brand new. :veryconfu

[44man]

The FCD will size the boolit in the brass, not the bare boolit.
The die is harsh on brass too and will again size a soft boolit as it tries to open the crimp.

[357shooter]

Thanks for all the replies. I don't have a micrometer to take measurements with. Sorry. Out of curiousity I did take one of the boolits in question and then took the Lee factory crimp die and turned it upside down. I dropped the boolit nose first into the factory crimp die. It went to the bottom without touching anything. I turned the die back upright and the boolit just dropped out. No signs on the sides of the boolit that it touched anything. Not scientific by any means but seemed to indicate to me that the factory crimp die is not sizing the boolit if it's not touching it. What say ye? Change to straight wheel weight alloy next? Hate to just write off the mould as it's brand new. :veryconfu

Like 44man said.

You forgot the brass, when reloading the bullet is never put through the die by itself. Also, even if it doesn't size on the up-stroke, it may on the down-stroke. After the crimp has been applied.

It may not happen to every bullet, it depends on the brass and the amount of crimp, and bullet diameter. But downsizing some and not others is still a problem and leads to inaccurate results when shooting, and leading as well.

[WILCO]

I don't have a micrometer to take measurements with. Sorry.

Having a micrometer is important. They are cheap enough at Harbor Freight or Home Depot:

http://www.harborfreight.com/catalogsearch/result?q=micrometer

http://www.homedepot.com/Tools-Hardware-Hand-Tools-Measuring-Tools-Micrometers/h_d1/N-5yc1vZapxg/R-100659779/h_d2/ProductDisplay?langId=-1&storeId=10051&catalogId=10053

[Larry Gibson]

Alloy was 50/50, lube type still unknown? Suggest Javelina.

Larry Gibson

[462]

Because you said that you don't have a micrometer, it's possible, then, that you have not slugged the barrel and cylinder throats. Even if you did, and measured the slugs with a caliper, you will not have obtained an accurate measurement.

Re-read Gear's posts. Until you have done as he advised, you are chasing your tail, wasting time, powder and primers.

Alloy is not your problem. If the boolit is of the correct size, that alloy will suffice for maximum .44 Special velocity. (Arguably, .44 Magnum, as well.)

If you have it available, you might want to try Alliant 2400 powder. Irregardless of how one views him, Elmer Keith used 2400 to take the .44 Special to its full potential.

Let us know your slug dimensions, and we can proceed from there.

[mdi]

+1 on lose the FCD. I had similar problems with two of my .44 Magnums using a Lee die. My Puma has a groove dia. of.431" and the Lee die swaged down my bullets to .429" - .430", as best as I could tell. Leading and poor accuracy. They dropped from the mold .432" - .433". Try some reloads with everything the same except roll crimp in a second step with your seating die (back out the seating stem and lower the die until you get a good roll crimp)...

[Echo]

>MY< first advice is to up the powder charge. Lyman shows a max of 13 grains Unique with that boolit. I believe you aren't bumping the boolit hard enough to get it to expand into the throat/forcing cone I wouldn't go over 13, but I would sure move up toward it until I got accuracy with no leading. And that boolit/alloy combination should handle the velocity OK.

On re-reading your OP, I see you are using 44Sp brass. My comments still apply, but not to the 13 gr limit. I stay with upping your dose of Unique somewhat, since you are shooting in a BH.

[Char-Gar]

My thoughts on the issue at hand.

1. The old Lyman gooey black lube will probably work OK, but there are far better lubes on the market.
2. Your alloy is on the soft side. I am not a fan of rock hard bullets, but they can lead due to excess softness. Straight air cooled wheel weight will be idea for your subject.
3. Your original charge of 7/Unique is a good charge and not the source of your leading.
4. You have your answers about the Lee Factory Crimp die.
5. Gear is correct...you won't know the answer to your problem until you know the dimensions of your pistol and the bullets. Until then you are just chasing your tail.
6. Sometimes even if you have done everything right, you will have leading due to micro-burrs in the pistol barrel. Rough barrels can be cured, but it is the last thing (not the first) thing you deal with. Out of the scores of sixguns I have owned and shot, only two could not be cured of leading by proper handloading. Those two required the barrels to be smoothed.

[big dale]

You might try casting a pot full of straight wheel-weight metal to see if your gun likes it. Over 90% of my 41 and 44 magnum boolits that I have used since the mid 60's have been straight wheel-weights. I have never had a problem with the crimping done by the standard dies in my factory die sets. Adjusting the crimp die on 44 's is about as easy as it gets. All but one of my Ruger Blackhawks or
Super Blackhawks have been happy with the boolits sized to .430.

Keep changing only one thing at a time till you figure it out. Once you do that buy the biggest can of Herco or Unique you can find. I have lost count of the number of 8 pound kegs of Herco I have used up in my 41's and 44's.

Have fun with this stuff.

Big Dale

[Larry Gibson]

Ok, the old Lyman Ideal lube.....missed that.....should still be ok but switching to Javelina will be a great improvement. + another on just roll crimping with the seater die and forgeting the factory crimp die AND upping the charge. Load 7.5 gr Unique under that 421421 bullet. That is the classic Skeeter Skelton .44 Special load and has always shot well in my .44 Magnums.

Also, on your next casting session use a 60/40 WW/pb mix and add 1 - 2% tin and casting hotter will probably give you a better fill out, more consistent bullets and a bit harder alloy. I also size most all of my cast .44 bullets at .430 as that size does quite well in all 4 of my .44s. At practical handgun ranges using the iron sights I can't see any difference between the same loads with .430 sized bullets and those that are .431 or .432 to "fit" the throats of 2 of my revolvers. Bullets of .431+ in PMC or R-P cases many times won't chamber easily in the Contender barrel. The .430 is a perfect fit in the Contender and Colt Anaconda.

The Ruger FTBH and Saur Western Marshal have throats of .431 and .432 and they do just as well with the .430 cast bullets. Actually I blissfull was shooting very well with the 5,000+ rounds of 429421s at .429 I put through the Western Marshal SAA before I learned that it just wouldn't shoot well unless the bullets "fit" the throats. The "test" used to be once around the cylinder into 1" at 25 yards over a sand bag rest. The Western Marshal would do that quite regularly with that .429 sized, WW alloyed, Javelina lubed, over 23 gr H4227 or 22 gr 2400, loaded in a Lee loader ammo. Of course "fit is king" and I'm sure it would do a lot better with a .432 bullet but my old eyes can't see the difference to make it happen. Thus 1" at 25 yards with once around the cylinder with .430 sized bullets in the same load I shoot in all 4 guns will do it for me.

Larry Gibson