Cast bullet target rifle selection.

[williamwaco]

I want a new rifle.

It will be used for targets and plinking only. It will never be used on game.

It needs to be pretty heavy. At least nine pounds including a large scope.

It will be used for cast bullets exclusively.

The most important criteria is accuracy from 100 to 300 yards.

It must be a bolt gun.

It must be a production model readily available.

It must use a cartridge that is based on ( can be made from ) either the 30-06 or the .223 Rem.

I don't think I am interested in re-engineering the .22 long rifle so I am not interested an any caliber less than .243.

What would you recommend?

[Doc Highwall]

30BR that and 308 Win are the most used in cast bullet competition. I am using 308 Win myself with SAECO #315 bullet.
Don't forget most dies are made for jacketed bullets.

[TCLouis]

Savage in 308?

[Doc Highwall]

Savage model 12 single shot in 308 Win.

[Ben]

http://www.savage-rifles.com/item/9041_Savage_Arms_Rifles_Shotguns_SAV_01063_10FP___ _LE_308_.aspx

[geargnasher]

Savage model 12 single shot in 308 Win.

Very nice. Is yours the standard left feed/right eject with 1:12 twist?

Gear

[HARRYMPOPE]

Ditto on the Savage heavy barrel 308's of any flavor.The Remington 308 700 Varmints or SPS/PSS's also do very well.I used to shoot Cast Bullet Assoc. matches with my old wood stock 700 varmint 10 years ago just as the Savage HB's came on.They pretty much took over but felt the 700 wasn't giving up much raw accuracy wise,the savage rode the bags better.Cant make a bad choice with either.

HMP

[runfiverun]

savage made thier f-class 308 with a 1-13 twist.
and if shooting a 223 at 2700+ is re-engineering the 22 lr i wanna see the lr spec sheets and chrono data.
any hunting rifle will do fine from 100 through 300 yds.
just get them up over 1900 fps.
you should easily be able to hold around 1 moa accuracy.
anyways a ruger v/t rifle in 308 [ with 1- 10" twist bbl] will do what you want in the weight you are asking for.
use the rcbs 165 silhouette [water dropped ww's 1% tin added or a 4/6/90 alloy] will fit the throat well enough with 28.5 grs of h-4895 with a filler should fit the load criteria.
using winchester brass and win lr primers with cases trimmed to 2.05". primer pockets cut to depth and flash holes cleaned and uniformed.
use .002 neck tension and flare the case mouths with no crimp. [leave the flair to help center the case mouth squarely]
you will want to mark the scope for 5 mills of drop from 100 to 200 yds and just a tick over 5 mils for 200-300 yds.
have fun.

[waksupi]

Your criteria knocks out the best selections for the purpose.

[HARRYMPOPE]

Your criteria knocks out the best selections for the purpose.

what would that be?

HMP

[waksupi]

There are so many nice old falling block and rolling block rifles that would do the job, with more class. I think just considering single shot bolt actions eliminates the nice old target rifles.
Now, if you just had a nice Farquarson......

After considering your handle, you have to ASK?!!!!![smilie=1:

[waksupi]

Uh Hem. Did I mention I am currently building a Hoch/Miller action .33 Winchester Schutzen rifle that will soon be for sale?......

[HARRYMPOPE]

There are so many nice old falling block and rolling block rifles that would do the job, with more class. I think just considering single shot bolt actions eliminates the nice old target rifles.
Now, if you just had a nice Farquarson......

I have to agree it's more fun to stuff a cast bullet load in a,Martini, Hi wall or 44-1/2,but at current frenzy prices for "nice old single shots" a bolt gun the better bang for the buck though not as "sexy" i agree.The only single shots i have seen outshoot heavy 30 BR bolts in head to head matches have been DeHass/Millers in 32 Miller short or 32-40.But that could be because Tommy Mason and Bev Pinney were behind them!

HMP

[PAT303]

I'd build a heavy barrelled ruger No.1 in 32/40 with tight chamber and mold cut with the throating reamer. Pat

[Mk42gunner]

I want a new rifle.

It will be used for targets and plinking only. It will never be used on game.

It needs to be pretty heavy. At least nine pounds including a large scope.

It will be used for cast bullets exclusively.

The most important criteria is accuracy from 100 to 300 yards.

It must be a bolt gun.

It must be a production model readily available.

It must use a cartridge that is based on ( can be made from ) either the 30-06 or the .223 Rem.

I don't think I am interested in re-engineering the .22 long rifle so I am not interested an any caliber less than .243.

What would you recommend?

Using your criteria adds up to a heavy barreled Savage in .308 Win. Brass could be made from the .30-06, but it wil be a lot easier to buy new brass.

Robert

[rays308]

I recently picked up a new Savage 10FP in 308.

It will do what your asking with any cast boolit from 160gr on up.

[Doc Highwall]

waksupi, I cannot wait to see some pictures of that Hoch/Miller action in the build.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm going to recomment the savage F Class or Palma rifle in .308W with 13" twist for the factory selection.

Better yet would be to find a M70 or M700 older target rifle and rebarrel with a 28 - 30" heavy Palma contour barrel in 30-06 with tight neck and a 14" twist. Second would be a shorter action target or "varmint" rifle in .308W or .243 and rebarrel with the same barrel only in .308W. If the M70 in .308W still had a 12" twist in good shooting condition I would try that before rebarreleing.

Those options give you proven bolt actions with good triggers, excellent stocks for target work, cartridgeas fof known excellent performance to 300 yards and the correct twists for maximum target load performance with both velocity and accuracy.

Larry Gibson

[captaint]

I'm getting ready to break in a new Win HighWall in 38-55, cast boolit only rifle. Doesn't meet the criteria for brass, and probably won't see a scope, unless my eyesight goes downhill. Can't argue with the .308 though. Outstanding caliber, for whatever. enjoy Mike

[Doc Highwall]

geargnasher, my rifle is a left hand Remington 40X, but I am thinking of having Savage make me a left handed model 12. I live about 40 minuets from the factory and I know the designer of the original 110 rifle and he still goes there even though he is in his 80's.

[mpmarty]

I bought a Savage in 308 accutrigger, pillar bedded,4X14X60 scope cast boolit only rifle.

[williamwaco]

I'm getting ready to break in a new Win HighWall in 38-55, cast boolit only rifle. Doesn't meet the criteria for brass, and probably won't see a scope, unless my eyesight goes downhill. Can't argue with the .308 though. Outstanding caliber, for whatever. enjoy Mike


I hope you have better luck with it than I did. That exact rifle sent me over the edge to look for a bolt gun.

[williamwaco]

There are so many nice old falling block and rolling block rifles that would do the job, with more class. I think just considering single shot bolt actions eliminates the nice old target rifles.
Now, if you just had a nice Farquarson......

After considering your handle, you have to ASK?!!!!![smilie=1:

Waksup!

You sound like a guy I would love to spend a rainy Sunday afternoon with in your shop talking about accurate rifles.

I too have suffered from a long term love affair with the beautiful and elegant single shot rifles. I have been in love with them since about 1960. I still am. I own three of them right now. Since 1965, I have owned one Remington rolling block, two Martinis, one Springfield trap door, five Ruger No.1s, and my latest, a modern Winchester 1885 in .38-55.

A very great American ( in my opinion) - Col. Townsend Whelen often said "Only accurate rifles are interesting". That is certainly true but they don't have to be accurate to be beautiful.

I have owned around 50 + bolt guns from a Remington 788 to a Remington 40XB-BR and a Paul Jager custom .270.

Here is where you are going to get upset with me. Of all the rifles I have ever owned, the least accurate bolt gun, was more accurate than the most accurate single shot.

Apparently you can make them shoot. I can't. None of the single shot rifles I have owned could be depended on to break two MOA at 100 yards. Including the Ruger No 1 varmint rifles.

Over the past 12 months, I have fired over 300, three shot groups from the .38-55 using two Lyman, and one Lee Bullet. Unique, 2400, AA No 9, 4198, and 2015. combined into 64 different loads. Cases were "prepared" according to the suggestions in Precision Shooting Reloading Guide. Ultimately selected less than 60 out of 200 Star Line cases.

Yes, I shot some fabulous 3 shot groups. Two under a half inch. Around 30 under an inch. The over all average is about 2.75 inches. All the very small groups were "flukes", none of those individual loads would average two inches.

"If you can't have what you like, you better learn to like what you can have."

That is why I am specifying it must be a bolt gun.

Please feel free to enlighten me. You will not hurt my feelings by telling me I am stupid.

PS:

I know . . . You are thinking this guy couldn't hit the ground with his hat. ( I would be thinking that too. )

I get three inch groups at 100 yards with My .357 Mag Thompson Contender. ( cast bullets )
I get 4 inch groups at 100 yards with my Winchester 92 .357 Mag - With Iron sights. (cast bullets)
I get 4 inch groups with my Marlin 336 - 30-30 (cast bullets) with Iron sights
I shoot in the .3s and .4s with my heavy .223. Varmint grade bullets
I shoot in the .7's and .8s with my deer rifles ( all bolt guns ). Sierra bullets

[williamwaco]

Thanks to ALL for your opinions. Sounds like the nod goes to Savage.

[TRX]

I'm still fond of the .300 Whisper idea.

It was originally designed to stay subsonic, and since it didn't have to transition through the sound barrier as it slowed down, it could theoretically be more accurate at a distance. To make up for the lower speed, a heavier bullet was used.

It always looked tailor-made for cast bullets, at least to me.

[williamwaco]

if shooting a 223 at 2700+ is re-engineering the 22 lr i wanna see the lr spec sheets and chrono data.


=============================

WOW, I guess that is certainly not reverse engineering the .22lr. Is that actually possible? How did you do it? I would love to try it. That is fast as I normally shoot jacketed bullets from my .223. I call it my .223 Hornet.


I remember back in the '60s experimenting with .22 cal cast bullets that just vaporized. We just saw a puff of gray smoke about 30 yards out. I don't remember the loads and we didn't have cronographs back then.

[williamwaco]

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Don't forget most dies are made for jacketed bullets.
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Thanks! That piece of advice just saved me about 50 bucks.

I can't find any dies on Midway that seem suitable. What dies should I look at?

[Doc Highwall]

Redding bushing dies allow you to change the bushings that size the neck in .001" increments to eliminate oversizing smaller for jacketed bullet size bullets.

Then you need a die to expand the inside of the case necks and put a small bell to allow you to start the bullet straight and the best one for that is the Lyman M-die.

Redding makes the bushing dies that will size only the neck for bolt actions and single shot rifles and they also make a full length die that takes the bushings for lever action and semi auto rifles. I have both kinds myself depending on what I am using them for. What is really nice about them is just by changing the bushings you can use the same set of dies for both jacketed and cast bullets, I know I do.

Example I shoot cast bullets sized .310" to .311" out of my Remington 40X, but I shoot only .308" jacketed bullets out of my palma rifle, but that might change. My Palma rifle has a tight barrel that measures .298" bore .3065" groove.

Another thing that is nice about the bushing dies is different lots of brass and different brands have different case neck wall thickness's allowing you to change the bushings to maintain bullet pull with out over working the case necks.

[captaint]

WW - While I'm looking forward to my HiWall project, I'm not expecting to see bolt rifle groups. Not fired by me, anyway. A number of years ago, an old gunsmith friend told me "Mikey, you can't get a single shot to shoot like a bolt gun. It just doesn't (generally) happen". I think if I can shoot under 2 inches, consistently, I'll call it good. AND, I'll really enjoy myself in the process. Not sure that with the stock sights I can do that - we'll see.
I do have a Rem 700 in .308 that I intend to cast some boolits for and see what that one will do. Either way, it'll be a journey. enjoy Mike

[303Guy]

Unique, 2400, AA No 9, 4198, and 2015. combined into 64 different loads.These are all quite fast powders are they not? Where would 2015 fit in the scheme of things? I would start off with AR2209/H4350 in the 38-55 and then up to Varget (AR2208 to us down under where it is made). But I don't have one so ...


... an old gunsmith friend told me "Mikey, you can't get a single shot to shoot like a bolt gun. It just doesn't (generally) happen". Why not exactly?

[Harter66]

William,
I know what you mean about the shooting of various rifles,my expirence is with a single rifle that should shoot much better than it does. Its a 1965 30-06 Savage 110 LH w/1-9 twist . I went through 15 maybe 18 boxes of factories from 150-210s,the best pattern was 12". Bear w/me. A workmate was cleaning out his garage and brings me about 160 rnds of LC-42. Gift horse ,right? So I take some and head to the range ,right of no tweeks i shoot a 3"5er',I walk out sure enough . I do my lil'victory dance ,sit back down add 2 more to then the last 3 go wild , like a foot from the group,1 left,1 low, 1 who knows! Short version I blame mounts ,rings, the ancient K4 weaver. A month later I take all the left over LC and partial boxes to the range ,I'm bent and going to get empty brass to biuld a "good" since this must be ammo defects! No since wasting it straight out shooting proficiency. After 60 rnds I'm looking down range and someting is going on that almost looks like groups . Sure enough I getdown range and there are 3 4" groups and 10 or so just random shots . Turns out this rifle is just way touchy about its peak. I weighed all of the empty cases into lots and had 20 or so that wer e light or heavy and 40+- of each w/in a gn of each other for 3 lots. .3 grn of 4350 makes the difference between clover leaves and 1.5" groups a full gn will open it up to 6",that makes a gain of just 60fps. More recently I picked up a 308 110E madee in the mid-80s . It shoots everthing (so far) into 4" or less no tweeks most loads can be "dialed in" under an inch in 2 range trips,as long as j's stay under 175gns. I've not gotten to it w/a lot of cast yet but it did like the Red Dot loads found here.

I like my Savage's but if I were "in the games" i'd try a 700 BDL.

[williamwaco]

[QUOTE=captaint;1273171]WW - While I'm looking forward to my HiWall project, I'm not expecting to see bolt rifle groups. I think if I can shoot under 2 inches, consistently, I'll call it good. AND, I'll really enjoy myself in the process. Not sure that with the stock sights I can do that - we'll see.


Before I scoped mine, I was able to do 1.5 to 2 inch groups at 50 yards with the tang sight. Around 6 inches at 100 yards. ( The increase at 100 yards is because I can't see that far, not due to anything about the rifle. )

[williamwaco]

These are all quite fast powders are they not? Where would 2015 fit in the scheme of things? I would start off with AR2209/H4350 in the 38-55 and then up to Varget (AR2208 to us down under where it is made). But I don't have one ..?

Guy.

Unique is the time honored cast bullet powder for rifles. It is said if there is one universal cast bullet rifle load, it is 10 grains of Unique. That load works in virtually all rifles except the very small cases. ( Most people today don't realize that Unique was introduced as a rifle powder, not a pistol powder. The first can I owned was labeled "Unique Rifle Powder", I used it in the 22 hornet. I don't remember the load but it was significantly less than 10 grains.

When I started researching loading data for the .38-55 literally every thing I found recommended 8 to 10 grains of Unique as a very nice load producing around 1100 fos for the 8 grain load and 1300 for the 10 grain load. No load I ever found exceeded the accuracy of these loads.

All the people writing about the .38-55 said that although Unique was good, 4198 was better. I didn't have any 4198 but 2105 has a virtually identical burning rate so I tried it. It worked well but no better than Unique so I bought a bottle of 4198. Same result.

I tried 2400 and No 9 because they were in between and because they were on the shelf.

In my experience most initial load powder selections are based on what the loader has on hand. I certainly would not go out and plunk down $20 to $30 per bottle for three or four powders to "try out".

[Char-Gar]

I wanted a rifle just like the one you desire 5 years ago. I wanted it for a test bed so I could test and learn about cast bullets. I bought a Remington 700 VS LH (.308). It will deliver regular 10 shots .75 MOA groups with loads it likes. It wears an old Redfield 12X scope. I used a Farrell base, with the extra taper, so I could get on target and still have plenty of adjustment left in the scope.

I sometimes fight the urge to put a high dollar custom barrel on the rifle, but the urge usually goes away by the next day. I could probably eek about a little more accuracy, but don't need it. The Remington barrel give me all the accuracy I need for fun and learning.

I hear good things about Savage rifles also. I have a 16 in .308 but it has a very light and whippy 22 inch barrel. It makes a great hunting rifle and plinker, but is no great shakes for really small groups. Something with a heavy barrel would probably do much better, but I am happy with my Remington.

P.S... The best load I have found is one of the first I tried. 50/WC872/Rem. 9.5/165 RCBS Sil. I cast the bullets from either ACWW or No. 2 and size .310. Lube is my homemade Beeswax/Vaseline concoction I have been using for 50 years.

[williamwaco]

================================================== ========

P.S... The best load I have found is one of the first I tried. 50/WC872/Rem. 9.5/165 RCBS Sil. I cast the bullets from either ACWW or No. 2 and size .310. Lube is my homemade Beeswax/Vaseline concoction I have been using for 50 years.
================================================== ========




Chargar,

WHAT is it about first loads?

There is something spooky going on there.

I have been doing this for 55 years and at least 90% of the time I never manage to improve on the first load.

[Char-Gar]

We usually give the first few loads our best thinking.

[303Guy]

We usually give the first few loads our best thinking. That's what I was thinking too! But all this talk has made me try out a fast powder that I have on hand and I'm actually quite exited about range testing it. My powder is a bulky shotgun powder by ADI - AS30N. I worked up a load to 10grs of the stuff under a 206gr boolit (paper patched) which I also used as fire-lapping boolits with some stuff I found at my clients premises. (Autosol Metal Polish).

Pressure is moderate to mild and load density is 45%. Great because a double charge comes up to the base of the shoulder where it is very visible! (And no doubt saved me and my rifle!:roll:).

As a side note, this Autosol stuff polished the case pretty damn good too (I smeared it over the case to polish the chamber a bit at the same time).