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View Full Version : Need opinions - what would happen???



DukeInFlorida
05-16-2011, 06:22 PM
Some background first.......

I have been loading 357 Sig ammo. It's all law enforcement range brass, virtually all of it once fired. Most of it (99%) is Speer.

A recent batch of brass (5,000 pcs or so) has been giving me fits! About 2-3 pcs out of a hundred have been wreaking havoc with the primer knock out pins in Lee Precision full length resizing dies. I've had 4-5 look like they broke, deep inside the holder pin. Figured they went "crunch" and went somewhere (goodness only knows....)

Through some testing with an RCBS die set (also 357 Sig), I discovered the same thing....... Except, because the RCBS dies are made different (much longer knock out pins, most importantly), I saw that the knock out pin got pulled out of the sizing rod collet. Sticking straight out of the case mouth. And, in the course of inadvertently installing a new primer (the old primer indeed got knocked out), was able to seat it over the pin stuck in the flash hole................

REVELATION!

I now know that the 4-5 "missing pins" from the Lee set pins are indeed stuck inside assembled ammo.

So, here's my question:

What would happen if I dropped one of those rounds (with the primer pin stuck in the flash hole, and new primer in place over it) into a gun, and pulled the trigger?

Would it?:
A) Completely misfire, because the pin is blocking the hole, and no flash would ever get to the powder?
B) The primer would build up enough pressure to blow the pin out of the flash hole, and the powder would ignite?
C) The pressure resulting from the weird B) scenario would cause damage to the shooter and the gun?
D) Or, the pressure would be fine, and the pin would get shot out the barrel with the bullet?

I'm up against pulling about 200 rounds. Not a biggie in terms of safety rules. But am I worrying needlessly?

So, this batch of Speer brass has undersized flash holes.

My work around was to polish the RCBS knock out pin down a thousandth or so (they are normally .060", and I reduced it to .059", and it's highly polished now.)

Thanks in advance for opinions.

CATS
05-16-2011, 06:28 PM
I do not know what would happen, but for only 200 rounds I would pull them all down and not feel bad about doing it.

BulletFactory
05-16-2011, 06:38 PM
Yep, I wouldnt chance it. The other possibility is that it might force the primer rearward, and if it ignited the powder, I could see it burning the breech face, and sending lit powder in other places its not supposed to be. Or the pin could get stuck in the barrel making a squib out of itself. The next bullet that runs into that thing could cause all sorts of problems.

I've pulled a couple hundred rounds before, its not so bad once yiou get the rhythm going. Besides, its fun to throw the old bullets back into the pot, you get good flux from the lube grooves, a nice puff of smoke and a little pop of fire from the powder. I find it quite amusing for some odd reason.

JCherry
05-16-2011, 06:49 PM
Just wondering but would a strong magnet do the job?


Have Fun

JCherry

Kraschenbirn
05-16-2011, 06:58 PM
Pull 'em down. Why take a chance on wrecking a good gun? Not to mention the potential for collateral damage to yourself and/or any bystanders. Just my nickel's worth...

Bill

30CAL-TEXAN
05-16-2011, 07:04 PM
Do you think there would be a significant weight difference in the loaded rounds?

If so, weigh them all on an digital scale and pull the heaviest ones untill you find all of your pins.

This is of course assuming that you know exactly how many you are looking for.

Cherokee
05-16-2011, 07:18 PM
Pull 'em.

canyon-ghost
05-16-2011, 07:19 PM
Flash hole reamer, Duke? Thanks for posting that, learn something every day.

Ron

btroj
05-16-2011, 07:20 PM
What would happen? Can't say for sure. The real questions this, are you willing to find out?

Not me.

Brad

Doby45
05-16-2011, 07:22 PM
I had the exact same experience with the batch of Speer 357SIG bras I got. I even lost approx the same number of "pins" and I shot all mine with zero issues. I found out I was missing the decapping rod "pin" when I would be depriming the brass and suddenly I was not depriming anymore but the decapping rod was still in the die but the little piece was missing. This happened to at least four of the Lee depriming rods. I would say the worst thing that could happen would betheroindwouldnotfireifthepin is still in the flash hole. I would not breakdown 200rds of ammo

Matt3357
05-16-2011, 07:30 PM
Super strong neo magnet should be able to sort them. That is, if you know how many pins you are missing.

Matt

mold maker
05-16-2011, 07:30 PM
I'm surprised that there was room to seat a boolit over the pin without setting off the primer.
I'd say you were already lucky and shouldn't push your luck. The suggestion to weigh and pull the heavy ones makes sense indeed, but only if ya know exactly how many to look for.
Even then pulling all of them is the safe route.

geargnasher
05-16-2011, 09:52 PM
I dislike Speer brass in any caliber I've seen it in. Mainly due to needing to swage every flash hole to get the new primer to seat, and the tendency of the case heads to be concave toward the primer pocket.

Gear

Cadillo
05-16-2011, 10:48 PM
Flash hole reamer, Duke? Thanks for posting that, learn something every day.

Ron

I agree. My experience with Speer brass is that the flasholes are way too tight. I scrap it when it turns up in my brass bucket. Too much trouble for handgun brass.

Doby45
05-16-2011, 11:05 PM
My experience with the 2,000 I got made it so that I will not use it anymore also..

prickett
05-16-2011, 11:13 PM
What would happen if I dropped one of those rounds (with the primer pin stuck in the flash hole, and new primer in place over it) into a gun, and pulled the trigger?


Funny you should ask... just had this happen to me the other day. After failing to get a grip on the stuck pin with pliers I realized I could shoot it out. So, I did. Worked like a charm. Just shoot it somewhere you'll be able to recover it (and somewhere safe).

EDIT - Hmmm, I now see you have loaded rounds. I noticed mine before dropping the powder or seating the bullet, so mine were just primer shots. So, never mind.

runfiverun
05-17-2011, 01:17 AM
might just knock the boolit forward with the primer force and not ignite the powder.
might knock it forward and set off the powder.
might not go off.

Bwana
05-17-2011, 07:39 AM
I use a RCBS die set and when I first encountered these problems I called RCBS and they sent a new decapping rod with their fix which was a smaller diameter decapping pin. No problems since then. Call RCBS and they will take care of the problem for you.
A strong magnet, as suggested, would work. Firing them might be injurious to the bore. Pulling them would be a chore; but, I like all things reloading. You get to decide.

DukeInFlorida
05-17-2011, 08:06 AM
Thanks all for the opinions (I realize that they are that... opinions).

I'll pull them all down, as most suggested.

99% of all of the 357 Sig brass that I have seen is Speer. So, there's no getting around that. I don't have the budget for NEW brass.

I have the "defective" pins on their way back to Lee, along with some brass samples, and the sizing die. We'll see what they say.

I know one thing, no matter what I get for returned pins, I'm going to chuck them up in a drill motor, and reduce the diameter and polish them. I have a few "tight hole" brass samples which I can use as a quick check gauge for testing whether the pins will fit.

The flash holes get punched at the factory (not machined), so it;s likely that Speer didn't change out their punch when the flash holes started getting smaller (the punch gets smaller and smaller as it wears out). Bad Quality Control on their part. But since they manufacture the brass as a One Time Use Only product, I can't really complain to them (as one would do with Starline.....)


Funny you should ask... just had this happen to me the other day. After failing to get a grip on the stuck pin with pliers I realized I could shoot it out. So, I did. Worked like a charm. Just shoot it somewhere you'll be able to recover it (and somewhere safe).

EDIT - Hmmm, I now see you have loaded rounds. I noticed mine before dropping the powder or seating the bullet, so mine were just primer shots. So, never mind.

Your comment tells me that the pressure from the primer would certainly force the pin out and into the cartridge, but it's unclear what would happen to the powder.

This adds further confirmation that I should just pull them.


Flash hole reamer, Duke? Thanks for posting that, learn something every day.

Ron

Heck, NO! Don't wanna add another operation to the equation! The polishing of the pins to a slightly smaller diameter hould do the trick.


I'm surprised that there was room to seat a boolit over the pin without setting off the primer.
I'd say you were already lucky and shouldn't push your luck.

The Lee pins are only about 3/8 inch long. Not long enough to interfere with the seating of the bullet, or to get pushed further into the primer.


Super strong neo magnet should be able to sort them. That is, if you know how many pins you are missing.

Matt

I'll try digging up some kind of super strong magnet and will report back. I should check some of the other pins I have here to see if they are 300 series stainless steel (which will not pick out the pins).

I'll also do some weighing of the rounds, and see if I can detect the added weight of the pins. Being as the pins are very short and very slender, there's not a lot of weight involved. It might be less than the differences in the weight of the bullets, and the cases. The powder is very accurate, 8.9 grains of Blue Dot. Fills the case up to the neck.

blackthorn
05-17-2011, 10:03 AM
Just a thought---would you add bits of hard metal to your powder charge? If you did, what are the odds those bits of metal would damage the bore? I'd pull them!!!

Blammer
05-17-2011, 03:54 PM
if you have good hearing, shake each round next to your ear, see if you can hear it rattling around inside.

mpmarty
05-17-2011, 04:06 PM
Pull them!

mold maker
05-17-2011, 04:12 PM
If the pins are attracted to a magnet, you might find them by passing the primer past the needle of a compass. Any deflection of the needle would indicate the presence of iron.
The lead boolit will also have an effect since it won't allow polar magnatism to pass through it.

DukeInFlorida
05-18-2011, 08:39 AM
Blammer, the pins are press fit into the flash holes. Hard enough to pull them out of the rods. No rattling.


if you have good hearing, shake each round next to your ear, see if you can hear it rattling around inside.

DukeInFlorida
05-25-2011, 09:10 AM
Ok, I was able to find a really small and powerful magnet. Came out of a SONICARE toothbrush. It's the small magnets at the very bottom of this image:
http://ecx.images-amazon.com/images/I/21VD612PEBL._AA300_PIbundle-1,TopRight,0,0AA300_SH20_.jpg

I tried the magnet on one of the replacement primer knock out pins that Lee sent this week, and was worried that it might be 300 series stainless steel. JOY! It stuck aggressively to the pin.

I laid the magnet down on a bench top, and tried to stick the primers for the suspicious assembled cartridges...... A few dozen tries into the exercise, and CLICK! One stuck. Opened that one up, and yessir, we have a winner! Stuck primer knockout pin stuck tightly in the flash hole.

I ran through the rest of the batch, and indeed found and accounted for all of the missing pins.

Now, I'll just knock those few apart, and shoot the rest!

Thanks for the magnet suggestion. It never would have occurred to me to try that. Took me all this time to find a donor toothbrush head. Those little magnets are very powerful!

astroskg
05-25-2011, 05:31 PM
my two cents strong magnet sounded good and so did the digital scale test . might find a few, otherwise pull them. if you don't i will quote some others quote i read today

"Your never to old to learn something stupid"

DukeInFlorida
05-25-2011, 06:40 PM
I haven't pulled the KNOWN bad ones yet. I have clearly marked them with Sharpie (so they don't accidently get mixed back in), and will do the digital scale weight test, and report back later as to whether they could be detected by weight.

fredj338
05-25-2011, 07:05 PM
Good job, the magnet was a great idea! Now if you are going to continue using Speer brass, particularly the nickel stuff, turn down your decapping pin. I use Dillon dies, beefy decap pin & it just reswages the primer hole as it punches the primer out.

DukeInFlorida
05-26-2011, 08:43 AM
I weighed the ones that responded to the magnet. I actually also had one that barely responded to a magnet... Had to float the magnet on a card on some water, an put the head end of the case near the floating magnet to really confirm. When pulled open, that one had the primer knock out pin inside the case, but not stuck in the flash hole.

All of the primer knock out pin rounds weighed 4 grains more than they should have. So, the knock out pins weigh 4 grains, enough that weighing the rounds would have also worked. That is a lot more than the normal variations in case weight, powder weight, bullet weight, etc combined.

So either the magnet test or the digital weigh test would have worked.

Hope someone else benefits from this thread!


Good job, the magnet was a great idea! Now if you are going to continue using Speer brass, particularly the nickel stuff, turn down your decapping pin. I use Dillon dies, beefy decap pin & it just reswages the primer hole as it punches the primer out.

Fred,
I checked my RCBS and Lee pins. They seem to use the same raw materials: .060" diameter very hard wire. Their method of cutting the pins leaves a bulge at the end of the pin.
My method of dealing with this is to chuck the knock out pin rods in a drill motor, round over the bulge with a fine file, and reduce the diameter of the pins with emery cloth, finishing with a diameter of .059", highly polished. They now go through even the tightest Speer flash hole. I've saved a few of the tightest ones to use as future gages.

XWrench3
05-26-2011, 09:03 PM
i guess i wouldn't be so much worried on the first one you pull the trigger on. my concern would be the following shot(s). if one of those pins laid in the bore, and the next boolit came along, MAN, IT COULD GET REAL UGLY! i would try the super strength neo-magnet, but if that was not 100% concliusive, as much as i hate to say it, you will NEED to tear them down until you find all the missing pins.