Need help with minie ball loads

[yotatrd4x4]

Ok I have hunted with a BP rifle for along time in North Carolina when I was growing up and it was an old Hawken Renegade 50 with 1 in 48 twist. Back then I didn't reload or shoot much so I went along with dad and used loose pyrodex rs and a conical. Now I like to shoot and love to tinker with loads for accuracy and to hunt. Anyway enough rambling I have a knight LK-93 which is the same as the newer knight bighorn except I have a 22inch barrel which I love and use num 11 caps not that 209 ****. I got a Lee target minie mold and the minies were pure lead I put them down the barrel and they engrave just a little on the rifling but are too loose to carry to hunt etc. I know they should be loose for ease of loading my question is can I use a wool wad over it too keep it tight for hunting or cardboard wad etc. I Prefer a homemade type wad or something to keep them tight so I can carry the gun all day and not have to worry is the minie loose or not. Any help will be great thanks.

[frontier gander]

lightly knurl it between 2 files. Doesnt take much pressure either so go easy.

[Maven]

If frontier gander's suggestion doesn't improve the way the Minie Ball fits your bbl., try Beagling the mold. Here's a link to the Castpics site and tutorial: http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/MoldMods/default.html

[405]

I imagine the Knight has a pretty true bore with the diameter at the breech the same as the muzzle. The isuue can be really problematic in older muskets where some are loose in the breech and tight in the muzzle so I know what you are talking about with a loose minie and the potential for it to move after loading. I wouldn't think that putting a wad on top would cause pressure problems as much as it might destroy accuracy. Dunno?

Knurling might work- easy to do and worth a try. One thing I've done, and it works, is to tumble lube with Rooster Jacket lube (the same idea as Lee liq alox type) but better IMO. Tumble lube. Let dry overnight. Tumble lube again. Let dry overnight. That will add a fairly tough outer coating of lube that in effect increases the diameter of the bullet so it will give a snug fit. If that doesn't work you could try a single wrap of thin paper around the minie. Use thin paper. Wet the paper. Make a single wrap. Let dry. Smear on a little minie type lube just before loading. Again, I've tried this and it works. The paper patch thing is a little tedious but for hunting purposes not unreasonable. I've shot some of my best groups out of a rifled 'minie' musket using the single wrap paper patch deal. Anyway, good luck.

[NickSS]

if it lightly engraves it probably wont move during normal hunting. To try it load it and then bumb the muzzle lightly and then see if it moves with your ram rod. If it does move, try a card wad over the bullet

[yotatrd4x4]

It loads with hard thumb pressure but once past the muzzle it will slide up and down by flipping the rifle up and down so I know it fits too loose for anything other than target shooting

[gew98]

Of the two 50 cals I cast minie's for one is generous in bore size and does what the OP mentioned. I just took a wood dowel and sanded a gentle cone end to it and if I sit the minie on it hollow end on the dowel I light push it down and expand the skirt a tad , grease and then load....works like a charm no files no hassle. I usually cast a bunch and expand a handfull and leave them in the pouch with the muzzler with the big mouth...just grease and go when needed then.

[gew98]

Oh ; A tip if it helps on the grease. Years ago I worked at a shop that rebuilt and rewound electric motors. After the stators or armatures are rewound with copper wire any machine fit is slathered up with this thick industrial grease - called "orange grease". It resists the heat of the oven and multiple dips in varnish. When all said and done it's still maleable and scrapes off easily. Now on BP bullets like minies it is the shiznit and will hold your minie in place over the charge I'd wager.

[yotatrd4x4]

Ok I tried knurling it made no difference. I put it in and it's tight for the first 2 inches then loose so my bore isnt perfect. I also tried to beagle the mold with no luck and I also tried to hone the mold still too loose. Anyone else gor any ideas I really don't wanna shoot sabots unless I have to. I also tried a cloth patch but it's too tight. I also have a lee improved minie mold in 54cal could I size it down to make it work anyone got a sizing die that's around 51 to 52cal. I tried a 54 unsized and can't get it down the barrel. I do have a lee push thru die in 451 I don't use could it be opened to .510 to make it work with the 54 mold?

[frontier gander]

if you're from alaska, why not order from bull shop bullets? Hes located in alaska and you can get around 100 conicals for $30

Do search on the name.

[yotatrd4x4]

I know him and have used his lubes but refuse to buy boolits when I can make them myself for way less money. I just made a 51 cal push thru sizer with an old wells swags die that was shot.

[yotatrd4x4]

Well gents I tried to beagle my mold and it didn't really help I think it's hard to beagle a single cavity mold that has no room on either side. I have decided to try something else. I tried to size my 54 mold to 51 but it's too difficult to do so I am thinking of sizing the 50 target minie to .490 and patching it. What do you think will that work ok? I know it needs to be tested but does it sound fesible

[405]

Yes, paper patching is reasonable but there is usually a bit of trial and error involved. Assuming a .500 bore (land to land), the .490 bullet twice wrapped with light weight paper (conventional paper patch paper and technique) will yield a bullet that is about .497 diameter. If you use a slightly thicker and more common paper you may end up with a patched bullet that is a little larger than bore.... which is what you are looking for so it doesn't move when seated. You can also lap out your sizer a little at a time so as to allow experimenting with different paper patched diameters. Also, using paper patched bullets in the muzzle loader may require more frequent bore swabbing maybe even between shots. While tedious... paper patching may prove to be a solution that gives good accuracy as a bonus.

[yotatrd4x4]

Ok I may try to paper patch I am ok with it being slow I just wanna get good use of the mold and I really don't like sabot setups. I mean why have a .50 if it don't shoot a .50 boolit? I have paper patch 45-70 boolits with good results with note book paper so I may size my boolits to .50 double wrap then resize to .50 again. I will give it a try and see what happens. Also what about using a traditional cloth patch like you would use with a round ball. Seems that may be a good option too?

[405]

Sure, a cloth patch might work if the bullet started out small enough to compensate for the much thicker cloth patch. The average cloth patched bullet using pillow ticking will increase in diameter by about .03". That would mean a .490" bullet would increase to .520". A twice wrapped paper patched bullet using common 20lb paper will increase by about .015". A twice wrapped paper patched bullet using thin cotton paper increases by about .007".

I guess the whole idea is to end up with a final diameter that is just enough over-sized to keep the bullet in place but not so large that is requires a big hammer to start it down the bore. I'd think a final diameter .001-.003" larger than the bore diameter (land to land) would do that. The mechanics of cloth patching and starting/loading a skirted minie will be different from doing the same with a round ball even using the same diameters and patch materials.

[nanuk]

I have a couple questions, as I am not familiar with the rifle

does it have the muzzle relieved of rifling? if not would it tear a paper patch? Have you tried the R.E.A.L. boolit?

if it does, then PP may work well, as well as a cloth patch. Also, an oversized boolit that just fits into the relieved area can be rammed with a short starter into the rifling.

I have a tool that I used to relieve my rifling on my Traditions, and plan on trying several .510 boolits.

[yotatrd4x4]

Rifling is not releived it runs all the way to the crown. I used a lee case mouth expander to open up the hollow base a bit but my issue is the muzzle for about 2 or 3 inches is tighter than the rest of the bore so it's hard to start then loose again as it goes down. It's tighter than it was before it would slide on it's own now I need a little ramrod pressure to move it so I may alox them 2 or so times and also keep expanding the bases and see if that will work. I have not tried a real boolit but wish I would have as the hollow minie seems to be an p i t a already.

[405]

Whew! About 18 yrs ago I shot a Knight 50 with all manner of loads. I even slugged it early on to check the bore & groove diameters and did not notice any variation in bore diameter between the breech and muzzle ends. It seemed to be a very consistent, well made barrel. Those tight muzzles I thought were artifacts of some of the 150 year old rifled muskets.... I have one. The only other constricted bores in modern guns I've seen have been usually associated with where dovetails were cut or other barrel attachments have been swaged on or areas held by a vise during manufacture. Hmmm... running out of ideas. :(

[tacklebury]

Try honing the muzzle end lightly. Perhaps a dowel rod with a little emry cloth? Or take to a smith to hone it. I've seen diamond hones for doing shotguns, but don't know if they make one for .410 size, because that might work also. Just a thought. You could hone a few strokes, check fit, hone again, type cycle until you smoothed out the variation.

[mooman76]

Might try adding a touch of tin to make the minies larger or switch to the T/C maxies.

[Maven]

"Might try adding a touch of tin to make the minies larger or switch to the T/C maxies." ...mooman

Yota...., I have a .50cal. Knight Bighorn (Green Mtn. bbl.) that isn't at all happy with Lee REAL's or Lee Minie's as all e molds cast too small, even when I used WW + 1% Sn rather than Pure Pb to cast. Paper patching the 320 gr. REAL helped some, but none was as accurate as the .50cal. T/C Maxi-Ball. From my experience, the T/C Maxie-Ball molds were held to tighter tolerances than the Lyman's (can't speak to the Saeco's as I've never seen one). .50cal T/C Maxie-Ball molds appear quite regularly on Ebay and can be had for a very reasonable amount. In short, mooman's suggestion is worth following.

[Bill*]

Isn't anything done to increase the diameter going to be undone when the boolit is pushed through the "tight" area at the muzzle? Or do they bounce back a bit? If not, I would think you could lap the tight section near the muzzle

[yotatrd4x4]

Yeah it seems since the muzzle is tight no matter what I do it will be loose in the lower half of the barrel. I am gonna just cut my issues by buying some sabots and just load my rcbs 250k 44 boolits in it. I hate to do that but the plastic stays tight since it springs back after the tight spot. I guess the 250k with 90 to 110 or so grains of pyrodex will get about anything on the ground.

[Maven]

"...cut my issues by buying some sabots and just load my rcbs 250k 44 boolits in it. I hate to do that but the plastic stays tight since it springs back after the tight spot."

The RCBS 44-250K with MTM green high pressure sabots is a very accurate load in my Bighorn as well.

http://mmpsabots.com/

[yotatrd4x4]

Thanks for the info Maven I will try those since the knight is designed to shoot sabots anyway. I read somewhere else on here that the 1in28 twist barrels sling the 250k very very well.