Age hardening and the gift of patience

[pcarpenter]

I have been casting for close to a year now after decades of shooting bullets others have made. I've read up a bit and know that the general concensus is to let recently-cast bullets age for weeks or months, but I am curious how critical this is?

I've done a few experiments measuring a bullet after a few hours then a day then several days and shrinking is not much of an issue as best I can tell. at most it's a tenth or two. My alloy is typically WW plus a percent or so of tin....and sometimes some "leaded up" wheel weight alloy to allow for better sealing in revolvers.

I tend to have just brief chances at range time and so I get a chance to maybe cast a few of something and want to load them sooner rather than later so they can go with me on the next trip to the range. I hate missing out on these sort of rare chances to test things. On the other hand, I don't want to reach the wrong conclusions because I didn't wait for the size and or hardness to stabilize.

Paul

[btroj]

I cast when I can, shoot when I can. I shoot what I have on hand. Might be 2 days, 2 months, 2 years old. They all seem to work.
I think that we sometimes get too hung up on little details.

Just because we can measure it doesn't mean it matters!

[RobS]

The big thing about age hardening as it relates to reloading is case swage. It can happen to a boolit that may not be hard enough to withstand the stress the cartridge case puts on the it. An air cooled antimony boolit such as WW alloy has an aging effect where as tin/lead alloy doesn't so that is another miss conception as well.

A WW boolit (air cooled) cast one day and reloaded the next may not be yet hard enough and swage down during reloading (seating/crimping). Case expanders obviously help when using soft alloys and many people have their reloading dies setup for it so they may not have the same experiences as someone who doesn't use an expander die that is, let's say, .001 under the boolit's diameter. Everything is relative to reloading practices, cartridges being reloaded, boolit sizing diameter, alloy etc. which is why there is so much bickering going on about air cooled boolits not working or air cooled boolits that are working and so on and so forth.

I've been giving the only for sure info.
1. Slug the bore (preferably with pure lead) and measure.
2. Load up a dummy round, pull it, measure it, and make sure it is the needed diameter for the bore.

It doesn't come any easier than this in making sure a person is doing a critical step right............BOOLIT FIT!!!

[captaint]

Paul - Try not to get caught up in the minute details. Not for pistol ammo anyway. I usually let my boolits sit for a week after casting, before I load them. I have loaded them the next day and not noticed any difference in performance. If they have some antimony in them (WW's) they will get a little harder after sitting a few days. A little harder. enjoy Mike

[mpmarty]

I cast up hundreds of boolits at a time. I don't load them until they are at least ten days old and in some cases much older. I do not size them at all, just tumble lube and put in 45acp cartridge boxes (378gr 45/70 boolits) nose down.

[pcarpenter]

Yeah, I don't want to be too cought up in minute details provided that's really all it is. My real concern was not with how quickly I could shoot them, but with how long I should wait before sizing them. Folks addressed hardness and I was more curious about shrinkage. ie. don't size a bullet to .357 and then find out that it shrank by a thousandth by the time I go to use it. It sounds like that's a non-issue. I am a real follower of making bullets fit by knowing bore size and sizing them over that by at least a thousandth, but I want whatever size I choose to be the *real* final size.

I do see how soft bullets could be more prone to the case swaging issue an that it's the *real* final size that counts. I tend to stay with soft bullets so they will bump up....especially in revolvers. I do use a lyman expander for some cartridges which is a real asset with cast bullets, but there's still plenty of chances to squish a bullet in trying to get it roll crimped later.

I have yet to water drop any bullets. For the semi-auto stuff, maybe I should try that. Then, they are ready to go pretty quickly, and softness is not so huge an issue.

Thanks for all the help
Paul

[williamwaco]

I tend to have just brief chances at range time and so I get a chance to maybe cast a few of something and want to load them sooner rather than later so they can go with me on the next trip to the range. I hate missing out on these sort of rare chances to test things. On the other hand, I don't want to reach the wrong conclusions because I didn't wait for the size and or hardness to stabilize.

Paul


Paul,

There is a LOT of information on the web about hardening, heat treating, aging, etc, etc, etc.

This stuff is largely correct and TOTALlY IRRELEVANT for your purposes. These minutiae are of interest primarily to people who are more interest in the process of casting than the process of SHOOTING.

I have been casting and SHOOTING cast bullets since 1956. Mostly handguns but a significant number of .30, .338, .358, .375 caliber rifles.

I have cast well over 100,000 bullets for my own use. 99.999% of them were what would today be air cooled wheel weights. My handgun ammo routinely produces sub inch groups at 25 yards, one to one and one half inch groups ( 5 shots ) at 50 yards. the rifle cast bullets group in .75 to 2 inches at 100 yards. ( 3 shot groups. All were cast from 100% wheel weights.

Here is the rule you are looking for.

If you can pick'em up in your bare hand, they are ready to size, lube, load, and shoot.

[RobS]

Folks addressed hardness and I was more curious about shrinkage. ie. don't size a bullet to .357 and then find out that it shrank by a thousandth by the time I go to use it.

Boolits with antimony will actually become larger as they age harden.

[btroj]

Like he said- if they are cool enough to pick up they are ready to shoot.
Yeah, a bullet might get a bit bigger with age. So what? I can't say that I have noticed it ever made a real difference for me and my shooting.

Again- just because we can measure it doesn't mean it matters.

[cbrick]

This stuff is largely correct and TOTALlY IRRELEVANT for your purposes. These minutiae are of interest primarily to people who are more interest in the process of casting than the process of SHOOTING.

Oh really, you seen to know EVERYONE ELSE including what and how they shoot very well.

Well, actually . . . not even a little.

Let's see if I have this right . . . We do it your way or we are not shooters. Ok, got it.

Rick

[HARRYMPOPE]

Paul,

These minutiae are of interest primarily to people who are more interest in the process of casting than the process of SHOOTING.



If you can pick'em up in your bare hand, they are ready to size, lube, load, and shoot.

well put,i have shot rifle bullets minutes after casting and shot them into small groups at 100 yards.

HMP

[cbrick]

well put,i have shot rifle bullets minutes after casting and shot them into small groups at 100 yards. HMP

As have I. What could this possibly prove? That it is the only possible way? That there could be no possibility of a better or different way? Obviously to Harry Pope it means that if others don't do it your way they are not, could not be shooters.

Great perspective you have.

Rick

[HARRYMPOPE]

As have I. What could this possibly prove? That it is the only possible way? That there could be no possibility of a better or different way? Obviously to Harry Pope it means that if others don't do it your way they are not, could not be shooters.

Great perspective you have.

Rick

not sure how to read your reply? The point was i was agreeing with "williamwaco" in shooting is the proof,not theory.I have similar experience to his anyhow.Maybe we are both wrong on young bullets,but that's what forum debate is about<G> I think william is correct in that much internet cast bullet stuff (probably not here) is repeated theory by non shooters and wasn't trying to put down anybody who disagreed with him.

HMP

[cbrick]

HMP, Ok, the proof is in what shooting? Sure you can cast, load and shoot a bullet. Depending on the alloy and the firearm/cartridge its to be fired in and the results you would like to get from it, it could make a difference.

williamwaco said, and you agreed with him that:


This stuff is largely correct and TOTALlY IRRELEVANT for your purposes. These minutiae are of interest primarily to people who are more interest in the process of casting than the process of SHOOTING.

If you can pick'em up in your bare hand, they are ready to size, lube, load, and shoot.

A blanket statement like that is childish. It speaks of doing it his way or how could you possibly be a shooter. It speaks of "he has done it and was happy with his results therefore everything else is irrelevant. It speaks of him refusing to learn anything new and anyone that tries to is not a shooter.

And you agreed with him.

Rick

[HARRYMPOPE]

sorry you are offended we disagree with you cbrick

HMP

[cbrick]

sorry you are offended we disagree with you cbrick HMP

Not offended.

Neither am I afraid to learn something new.

Neither do I believe that if you don't do it my way or if you try to learn something you are not a shooter.

It seems that these things don't apply to everyone though huh?

Rick

[geargnasher]

What's with the recent blast of comments on several threads regarding over-complicating, overthinking, over-obsessing etc.?

For those nagging types, please go to the Shooter's Community Center forum and have a gander at Ken's sticky "The Salad Bar Forum". Some of us have simple goals, some of us "imagine more".

Seems like there are some VERY small-minded points of view being tossed around, and I don't find it in the least bit productive. I've solved problems by obsessing over minutia and hashing it out with other, like-minded members that 90% of the membership here have never even conceived of, so it may seem irrelevant to them.

If you don't think that the fine points of boolit and brass sizing, boolit hardness and composition, lube ingredients, throat fit, state of anneal of case and gas checks, neck tension, seating depth, throat fit, primer choice, filler type and amount (if any), and lot-to-lot variations of powder as well as twist rate, groove depth, chamber/bore alignment, crimp style, and a hundred other minute considerations don't matter or need to be thought about much, then either you are extremely lucky, or have much lower standards than I do for my accuracy.

There is also a huge difference between a person who casts and loads mainly to save money on ammo for fast-moving, short-range pistol competition, and the guy who's loading for benchrest competition, or the guy who's working on a balance of accuracy/terminal performance for his favorite high-powered meatgetter. This forum is an outstanding place that welcomes all extremes of the hobby and anything in between, much of which is dictated by the goals and relative curiosity (or lack therof) of the individual member. If you give no more thought to your long-range competition rifle loading technique than you do to your barely-makes-power-factor blazing ammo, your groups will not be impressive. As the goals get higher shooting cast, the whole process neccessarily becomes a little more complex.

It's a large spectrum, and if you don't like the agonizing details, leave me and the rest of us that are riding the ragged edge of the envelope to our chosen tasks. I'll still take time to help people who are trying to figure out for the first time how to get a wheel weight into a cartridge, even though criticizms of my advice, such as my pointing out that mould and pot temperature actually matter even for a .38 Special boolit, seem endless.

Gear

[captaint]

Learn something new??? Whew - long way to go. I have a lot of molds that I'm still getting aquainted with. Seems like every time out, I learn something. That's one of the things that keeps all this interesting. You know, besides shooting that ridiculous group!!! enjoy Mike

[cbrick]

I'll still take time to help people who are trying to figure out for the first time how to get a wheel weight into a cartridge, Gear

Geez Gear, that's easy!

Rick

no, wait, I think I read one of the little details was that your supposed to apply heat first.

[cbrick]

Learn something new??? Whew - long way to go. Seems like every time out, I learn something.

Yep, same here. Hope I never stop learning. All those irrelevant little detials that I have picked up from this forum over the years have taught me a lot. Long way to go.

Rick

[btroj]

What Gear? One size doesn't fit all?
I don't worry the aging thing because I don't shoot for small groups or try to push the envelope on things. I don't think the average cast bullet shooter does either.
IF you are a person looking for extreme accuracy, pushing the velocity envelope, dealing with difficult bullet fit, or other unique situations, then use, bullet age and hardness/ growth may matter.
Unless you have a situation where bullet aging can make a difference then don't worry about it.

Too many newbies get hung up in thinking that every minute detail is extremely relevant. People need to realize that some shooting sports have unique requirements that lead to unique loading techniques. These techniques may well be specific to that sport and may have little relevance to other shooting sports. Things like neck turning, annealing after every firing, neck sizing only. I don't use a bulge buster when loading 9mm because I don't load for a Glock that needs it.

We all have specific, or general needs, from out carting and loading techniques. What works well for one may not work for another. Mine changes from time to time. I am shooting way more handgun now that I did a few years ago. That changes my needs. I will change again towards fall as I prepare for hunting, different needs. I try to tailor the Technique to the need. To me, that keeps it simple.

I agreeing about continuing to learn. The key is understanding when to apply what you have
learned.

I will admit to being a " keep it simple" guy. That works well for me. I also feel strongly that it is the best way for a beginner to look at things. Beginners need to learn to cast a decent bullet, load them, and shoot them. They need to learn to observe and understand why a certain load worked and another did not.

I suppose that what we really need is for people to ask more specific questions. Knowing the application and knowledge level of the person asking the question would certainly make it easier to give an appropriate response.

Brad

[Pirate69]

I have been recently looking for some information on this subject. I assume, and please correct me if I am not, that a boolit cast of pure lead will not grow with age. It is the Sn and Sb that results in the growth. I am interested in learning how much you can expect a boolit to grow as a function of the SB and/or Sn content. Has anyone seen any data on this subject?

[btroj]

It is far more the Sb that causes the age hardening/ growth. Don't have any data relating percentages to potential growth.
You are correct on the pure PB not growing or hardening with age.
Adding As also can have a distinct impact upon the age hardening of a bullet, don't know about size.
One of our biggest problems is that unless we start with foundry pure metals we have mixtures of metals which may be unknown. We have a general range for current WW metal but it is by no means precise.
I tend towards using alloys that have a pretty low Sb content, below 3% usually, which reduces these effects. This is part of why I tend to not worry them alot.

The man has a good question- is there a chart or something that shows the age related growth of a bullet based upon Sb content? I have seen lots pertaining to hardness but not size.

Brad

[Char-Gar]

I cast when I can, shoot when I can. I shoot what I have on hand. Might be 2 days, 2 months, 2 years old. They all seem to work.
I think that we sometimes get too hung up on little details.

Just because we can measure it doesn't mean it matters!

That is what I do also and reflects my thinking on the issue at hand.

[geargnasher]

Pirate and Brad, there is a very good chart in Lyman Cast #3 on p.58, top of page that gives the spectrum of calibers in three alloys plus pure lead. It does not account for variances in mould temperature affecting boolit size in Sn/Sb alloys, or the first-week growth rate, but these are slight.

I agree that the hobby should only be made as complex as the needs of the shooter and the particular situation, but one must have a pretty comprehensive understanding of what they're doing so they will know WHEN and HOW they can streamline a process for speed and simplicity or when they are really just going to to have to buy a neck turning tool.

Gear

[btroj]

I have seen that chart and understand how alloy can affect diameter. I understood the original post to be about diameter increase over time due to alloy. I have seen some here claim it is up to 1 to 2 thousandths with some alloys.
As for having an understanding about what they are doing, that is the hard part. I see there being a big difference between learning and understanding. We can teach a person to do something but they must work to understand what is happening.

Brad

[RobS]

The main thing I brought up with this entire age hardening issue is a very basic principle to loading cast boolits and one that is largely credited for the success of shooting cast, BOOLIT FIT, plain and simple. Sure a person can load up a freshly cast PB boolit and swage it down in the reloading process (seat/crimping) but if it remains larger than the bore's groove then there is boolit fit. A person can use an expander that opens up the case to assist with less neck tension for those softer alloyed boolits. Additionally a person can cast up a rifle boolit and slap on a gas check to protect the base from swage down then load it up the same day and have good results however slam a PB one into a case which could swage the base down under groove diameter combined with higher pressures and watch those impressive 3/4" groups blow out.

I've read and been part of countless threads concerning leading issues and more times than not it comes down to a boolit that is undersized. Either the boolit started life undersized or it become undersized somewhere between the time it left the mold and was loaded. All in all do with it as you want but more than likely those doing what they feel is satisfactory are not having leading and/or accuracy problems and probably because the boolits are the right diameter for their firearms.

Some people are more advanced than others and chose to be which shouldn’t be a problem for anyone as I see it. Blanket statements are useless in regards however as there are some who express their thoughts with zero information regarding what they are doing. An example of a blanket statement: "I shoot cast boolits the same day and have no problems." When the light shines in to find out this person is loading up a freshly cast boolit that is a 1:10 tin-lead alloy which is useless info for someone using a completely different alloy. Additionally such person using the tin/lead alloy is also using an expander die that is .001 under the boolit diameter where as another person who is having problems may not be using an expander appropriate for softer alloyed boolits or freshly cast antimony-lead alloys that haven’t age hardened enough for their current reloading set-up. More information in commentary would clear the air. A more suitable statement would be, "I shoot cast boolits the same day that are cast with 1:10 Sn-Pb and use a .451 expander die for my .452 sized boolits. The boolits leave the case after loading at .452 and work well in my .451 45 auto barrel."

I will admit that I've left some blanket statements too as I'm not perfect either but someone usually comes back and asks what's up which allows me a chance to state what I'm doing in more detail.

[pcarpenter]

I sure didn't mean to start an argument over this and I am advanced enough to filter the "don't worry about it, it truly doesn't matter" comments from the "yes it makes a difference, but you wouldn't know the difference" comments.

As a little background, I have been handloading (I rarely use the term reloading since I hardly ever buy loaded ammo) for about 25 years. I load for maybe 20+ different cartridges including some wildcat rifle stuff where I am sort of an accuracy buff, but not a benchrest shooter. I own a bunch of Wilson hand dies, and neck turn for some tight necked guns. On top of that, I am an engineer by degree, so you know the personality type ;) In short, I understand esoterics and that sometimes to make the next Nth degree of accuracy improvement you have to sweat seemingly small details. Some folks will look at you like you are crazy for sorting cases by weight, for example. I don't have time to do this for all guns, but the process has taught me that if you are doing all the obvious stuff, sometimes the answer lies in the not so obvious stuff.

Admittedly, though, I don't tend to spend as much time worrying about that sort of thing with cast bullets...but this was the reason for my question. Knowing that bullets with antimony and tin are apt to grow rather than shrink means one less thing I can be concerned with for my purposes. It would be interesting to know how much age growth or hardening occurs over time with various alloys, so a guy who did want to let them harden a bit before sizing could know whether we are talking days, weeks or months.


That having been said, sometimes the little details do mean something. The concept of "case swaging" didn't strike me until I read about it here, some months ago. Yeah...it may *seem* trivial until you have been trying to resolve leading problems in a revolver and you *know* that they were sized properly but still may not fit just right. Same deal with say slugging a bore, but forgetting to check the cylinder throat diameters. Sometimes the devil *is* in the details.

I am glad, however, to know that in the case of some semi-auto bullets I whipped out the other day and want to get on with loading, I can size away today, tumble lube (it's a TL Ranch Dog bullet in this case), and probably make ammo tomorrow and all should be well.

thanks to *everyone* for their input and for the concern that I might be lead astray.....my "you don't need to worry about that because you are just getting started" filter is "ON".:-D

[geargnasher]

Excellent posts and excellent points, RobS and PCarpenter, my thoughts exactly.

Gear

[williamwaco]

Boolits with antimony will actually become larger as they age harden.



How much age does it take?

How much do they expand?

I have a small supply of H&G # 51s I cast in 1972. They were cast of WW ( with antimony ).

In 1972 the day after they were cast, they measured .357 diameter.

In 2011 they measure .357 in diameter.

Of course, I could be off a half a thousandth, I only used a caliper to measure them.

[RobS]

How much age does it take?

How much do they expand?

I have a small supply of H&G # 51s I cast in 1972. They were cast of WW ( with antimony ).

In 1972 the day after they were cast, they measured .357 diameter.

In 2011 they measure .357 in diameter.

Of course, I could be off a half a thousandth, I only used a caliper to measure them.

The initial aging period of a week or two after casting is when they can grow in size. Depending on the antimony % as to the amount of growth. Some have had .0005 and some people have even stated .001. I'm seeing .0004-.0007 ish with my results however sizing within 24 hours after casting does reduce these numbers.

[geargnasher]

A lot of it depends on the caliber. Larger boolits will grow more than small ones.

I recently made a bumble. I cast some .45 Colt boolits and got in the mood to lube-size them about a week later, so I took full advantage of that rare event and sized just under 1K of them. About a month later I loaded ten boxes for stock, failing to recheck the size. A few days later I got to the range and discover that they won't chamber in either one of the revolvers I brought. I re-miced them, and discovered that they had grown a full thousandth at some point over the course of a month, and since I size the front band to an almost interference fit in both guns, they wouldn't chamber.

I figure that this is due to the fact that I used 50/50 isotope lead and battery terminal ends for this particular batch, and it has virtually no arsenic in it that I know of, which dramatically slows the growth/age hardening of antimony. Not the amount, but the timeline. When I size a week later (as is normally my practice, give or take a couple of days) with WW-based alloy I never have this problem since it's mostly through growing by then. It seems that the other alloy wasn't, and continued to grow and harden after sizing and even after loading.

Gear

[swheeler]

"I am a real follower of making bullets fit by knowing bore size and sizing them over that by at least a thousandth, but I want whatever size I choose to be the *real* final size." quote by PCarpenter

I hope you mean GROOVE diameter and not BORE diameter. You would be better off sizing to throat diameter or maybe a couple ten thousands under. As an engineer remember it's all in the little things, like misusing groove and bore diameters.

[btroj]

I suppose I never worry about such issues because the age growth thing has never bitten me. Yet?
I should say this, I don't tend to worry over issues that have not hit home with me directly. I have never had an issue with a bullet growing enough after sizing to cause issues with my ability to shoot the ammo. Who knows, they may have frown but still chambered and shot. I don't generally measure ammo that is loaded so I don't know, do I?

I will say that I rarely cast and size in the same day. This is because I don't usually have the time to do both. I can't say how long it will be before I size Abu let as they may sit for years unsized, depends upon when I need them. I just don't have that organized a system. Not my nature.

In the end, it is like Someone else here has said. It only matters when it does.

Brad

[RobS]

In the end, it is like Someone else here has said. It only matters when it does.

Brad


All in all do with it as you want but more than likely those doing what they feel is satisfactory are not having leading and/or accuracy problems and probably because the boolits are the right diameter for their firearms.

Yep...........

[casterofboolits]

An extremly intresting and informative thread.

I've been casting my own boolits since 1973 and the Lyman handbooks were my bible. After I started IPSC in the early 80's I went from casting a couple hundred to a couple thousand boolits a month. Alloy was wheel weights with lino, stereo or monotype added. Moulds were a pair of two cavity Lee 452-228-1R. These moulds served well for a couple years. I atually cast about a thousand boolits in a couple hours one day. I was bemoaning the fact that I was not looking forward to lube/sizing that many boolits with my RCBS tool to a buddy and he stated "have I got the solution for you", he left and came back with a Star Lube/sizor. What a difference.

The point of this ramble is that I ended as the local boolit supplier and sold several million boolits over the years.

How is this relevent to the current discussion? When casting a particular boolit, you always have over runs which I keep in one pound coffee cans. Some of these cans I know are over ten years old.

So, I checked a couple cans.

1. Lyman #356637 09-147-RFBB Originally sized .3560 now .3564

2. Saeco #930 38S-158-SWCBB Originally sized .3570 now .3575

These were checked with my Brown & Sharpe 0 to 1" mics. after they were cast and rechecked today with the same mics. I do not think this was spring back.

These were the only boolits I have that I know are at least ten years old and were checked for size after lube/sizing. I may have some Magma 45-230-RNBB in my old sample box which I will dig out later and check.

How important is this info to me? Not much. After all, I was a "spray and pray" IPSC shooter and only cast pistol boolits. How many of us let boolits sit around for a decade?

I think we all work to fill the needs of our hobby and do things, not wrong, just different and I would never chastise anyone for not doing it my way. My way works for me. YMMV

[HARRYMPOPE]

[QUOTE=casterofboolits;

I think we all work to fill the needs of our hobby and do things, not wrong, just different and I would never chastise anyone for not doing it my way. My way works for me. YMMV[/QUOTE]

perfectly said.

HMP

[pcarpenter]

I hope you mean GROOVE diameter and not BORE diameter. You would be better off sizing to throat diameter or maybe a couple ten thousands under. As an engineer remember it's all in the little things, like misusing groove and bore diameters.

I assume by bore diameter, you were referring to the diameter measured at the lands. I meant at the grooves. When we slug a bore (I usually use Cerrosafe and cast it), isn't that so you can measure groove depth? I thought slugging the bore (which presumably gave you a *bore* measurement) was a reference to the larger diameter.

Maybe I am mis-understanding, but lands and grooves are both elements of a rifled bore. And, yes, I am sizing them .001"-.002" over the largest diameter (groove diameter) where I have that luxury. I own about 10 revolvers and a majority of them have a bore diameter well larger than what most molds for the cartridge will produce on a good day. Knowing what I know now, I should have purchased custom molds for my .44's for example since with factory molds I am lucky if I can get .4295 out of most of them with WW alloy. That's a case in which if there is some growth to be had by letting recently cast bullets age a bit, it makes sense for me to do that before sizing. In my case, sizing just barely cleans up the roundness and is more of a method for applying lube than changing diameter.

paul

[cbrick]

I assume by bore diameter, you were referring to the diameter measured at the lands. I meant at the grooves. When we slug a bore (I usually use Cerrosafe and cast it), isn't that so you can measure groove depth? I thought slugging the bore (which presumably gave you a *bore* measurement) was a reference to the larger diameter.

Maybe I am mis-understanding, but lands and grooves are both elements of a rifled bore. And, yes, I am sizing them .001"-.002" over the largest diameter (groove diameter) where I have that luxury. I own about 10 revolvers and a majority of them have a bore diameter well larger than what most molds for the cartridge will produce on a good day. Knowing what I know now, I should have purchased custom molds for my .44's for example since with factory molds I am lucky if I can get .4295 out of most of them with WW alloy. That's a case in which if there is some growth to be had by letting recently cast bullets age a bit, it makes sense for me to do that before sizing. In my case, sizing just barely cleans up the roundness and is more of a method for applying lube than changing diameter. paul

Groove diameter yes BUT your speaking of revolvers. In a revolver the single reason for knowing the groove diameter is to be assured that it is at or smaller than throat diameter. Revolver bullets need to be sized to a mild snug fit in the throats.

Revolver throats are the best sizing die there is. If you have, as an example, a groove diameter of .431" and throat diameters of .429" sizing your bullets to .431" or larger for a groove fit would be useless. When the bullets exit the throat they will be throat diameter, in this example .429" regardless of the .431" groove diameter or sizing them even larger than groove diameter.

Bullet growth by aging is minimal, probably .0005" at most with a reasonable Sb alloy. High Sb alloys will grow a bit more but most of this growth will be in the first few weeks, for the most part any aging growth won't matter much, there mormally isn't enough change to alter bullet fit.

If you have bullet designs in molds that you like but they are casting too small for your firearms consider beagling or Erik Ohlen at Hollow Poiint Bullet Mold Service. Erik is a master of the CNC machine and opening up the driving bands so the mold will cast at the diameter you request. He has done several for me and I couldn't be happier, he is a true craftsman and has a rock solid warranty.

Rick

[myfriendis410]

Kind of back on topic:

I use range lead and tin for my .45 acp loads 'cause I want ammo that knocks down bowling pins at 8 yards quickly. I use ww and tin to load my Sharps to shoot groups that are pleasing to me at 100 yards. If I had a longer range I'd be using that.

So, for the topic let's get back to ww in a rifle. I have been casting these and using a technique to harden by freezing. One of the main reasons to use wheel weights is because of the arsenic in the metal which is present to cold harden or "chill" the metal for hardening. It is supposed to nearly double the hardness of wheelweights. Some of this hardening effect is lost over time, but stabilizes at some value higher than "as cast".

Is there anybody here using this method? Is there any validity to this?

[buck1]

A blanket statement like that is childish.
Rick

I agree, just too many varriables to say.. all ,always,never,etc.
What load,pressure etc...
If a light load will work with a soft boolit fine. As for me , I must agree with rick on this one.......Buck

[geargnasher]

Kind of back on topic:

I use range lead and tin for my .45 acp loads 'cause I want ammo that knocks down bowling pins at 8 yards quickly. I use ww and tin to load my Sharps to shoot groups that are pleasing to me at 100 yards. If I had a longer range I'd be using that.

So, for the topic let's get back to ww in a rifle. I have been casting these and using a technique to harden by freezing. One of the main reasons to use wheel weights is because of the arsenic in the metal which is present to cold harden or "chill" the metal for hardening. It is supposed to nearly double the hardness of wheelweights. Some of this hardening effect is lost over time, but stabilizes at some value higher than "as cast".

Is there anybody here using this method? Is there any validity to this?

Kind of back on topic, but not really.

I haven't done it myself, but someone here (BABore I think) has studied the effects of ambient temperature on the rate of age-hardening and IIRC freezing the boolits slowed down the age-hardening process dramatically, and a mild warming in the oven accelerated the rate to just a few hours.

Here, I found one of the threads...http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=114406&highlight=freezer+oven

Gear

[RobS]

Correct on the temps. I will often use an oven to speed up the aging of my boolits. Two to three hours after cast simply put in at 200 degrees for an hour and then leave the boolits in the oven to cool. WW boolits can reach their age hardness in 48 hours with this approach. Two exposures with a minimum of 7-8 hours in between sessions and the aging can be done in 12-24 hours depending on the time between.

Also using a quality oven thermometer helps in keeping oven setting consistent as not every oven is correct with its dials etc. and to hot can actually reverse the process keeping boolits soft.

[myfriendis410]

What I read indicate that the presence of arsenic allows for cold hardening by freezing i.e. "chilled shot". This is supposed to double the hardness of ww. I haven't actually tested the difference, but noted the bullets frozen for 48 hours were much harder to size. I got it from the treatise on bullet alloys from the LASC (great source of information).

[geargnasher]

What I read indicate that the presence of arsenic allows for cold hardening by freezing i.e. "chilled shot". This is supposed to double the hardness of ww. I haven't actually tested the difference, but noted the bullets frozen for 48 hours were much harder to size. I got it from the treatise on bullet alloys from the LASC (great source of information).

Nope. Antimony and trace Arsenic are present in all hardness grades of shot. Chilled shot has the least, and is the cheapest. Magnum shot has the most of both, and is the hardest, and most expensive, commonly having 6% or so antimony content.

All shot is "chilled" as it hits the quenching liquid, "chilled shot" is just a term for low-grade stuff, has nothing to do with freeze-hardening.

Gear

[felix]

Actually, arsenic is used as a lead shot coagulator using its strong surface tension capabilities. Most "impurities", one of which is arsenic, cause a wild freezing point and a long slush stage amongst lead, tin, antimony alloys. ... felix

[cbrick]

What I read indicate that the presence of arsenic allows for cold hardening by freezing i.e. "chilled shot". This is supposed to double the hardness of ww. I haven't actually tested the difference, but noted the bullets frozen for 48 hours were much harder to size. I got it from the treatise on bullet alloys from the LASC (great source of information).

Nothing on the LASC site about "freezing" alloys but yes, great source of information. [smilie=1:

Gear and Felix are correct about arsenic in shot, shot won't drop round without it.

Rick

[myfriendis410]

Yeah; I just went back over the LASC website. What is weird is, I'm SURE I read about freezing for 48 hours ww cast bullets as a hardening technique. I must have been hallucinating on vapors off my lead pot or something. Maybe CRS has set in. I remember the article talking about heat treating with a convection oven and found all of that info again.

I suppose I need to revisit all of my after-casting procedures. Damn.

[cbrick]

Yeah; I just went back over the LASC website. What is weird is, I'm SURE I read about freezing for 48 hours ww cast bullets as a hardening technique. I must have been hallucinating on vapors off my lead pot or something. Maybe CRS has set in. I remember the article talking about heat treating with a convection oven and found all of that info again.

Well, you may have read that . . . Someplace.

It wasn't however on the LASC site. I've never posted any such a thing, I've never even heard of doing this.

There are those that believe age softening after heat treating is much more rapid than it is and feel that if they are stored in the freezer after HT age softening will be arrested. The truth is that age softening after HT is a fairly slow process and keeping them in a freezer is hardly worth the effort unless you don't plan on shooting them for 25-30 years or so.

Rick

[myfriendis410]

Well, sorry about the misdirection. That's gonna bug me.......

[BABore]

I currently use 50/50 WW-Pb alloy for the bulk of my shooting needs. Being lower in antimony and arsenic that that of common clip-on WW's, they seem to take a bit longer to stabilize in hardness. When I used straight WW alloy, I did alot of experiments on water dropping, oven heat treating, annealing, and curing time. In most all cases, with both WW's and 50/50 alloys, I have found that measured hardness peaks at 1-4 days. For most low pressure applications (below 25 kpsi), I did see much difference in accuracy whether I shot the boolits on day one or a month later. I have seen some difference in some loads that operate in the 25-40 kpsi range. Not all the time and it depended on the gun. Above 40 kpsi is where I noted the main difference between week old boolits and those aged 1-2 months or more. The accuracy difference wasn't simply blown groups, but those one or two unexplain flyers in each group. When I would notice this going on, I would make myself a note to retry that same load a month or so down the road. In every case, the older boolits shot more consistently. I will still shoot young boolits to get that glimmer, but always wait a bit longer to see what is really capable.

One question/comment I have for Gear and others in regards to age growth. A couple years back I came acrossed a batch of 400 grain 475 cal boolits I casted about 2-3 years prior. I was getting loaded up for a shoot with some fellow members here. These boolits were cast from straight WW's and oven heat treated. One box was checked, sized, and lubed at 0.478. The second box was oven heat treated only. Who knows, maybe I ran out of GC back then. My normal procedure is to OHT, check and size in a nose-first push-through, then lube. Both boxes were OHT'd together and measured 28 bhn after 1 week. Now, 2-3 years later, they still measure 28 bhn. Good as it blew that old wives tale away. When I went to size and GC the second batch, I couldn't get them through my Rockchucker. Upon mic'ing the boolits, I found that they had grown from 0.478+ to 0.483. Just under 0.005" of growth. In a panic I checked the already dressed boolits. They were still at the sized diameter of 0.478. I ended up annealing the big boolits, OHT'd again, and sized right away.

It got me wondering about the sizing of a heat treated boolit just after it was HT'd. I've never found that it degrades hardness if done within 24 hours. I have found, through further experimenting, that sizing after heat treating will arrest any growth in the sized areas only. Just looking for comments on if you've had similar findings.

[cbrick]

Similair experience except it never occured to me to check the diameter.

I was cleaning out the cabinet under my loading bench and discovered a few boxes of RCBS 35 200 gr. FN, properly labeled with alloy, date of HT, sized diameter and BHN. They were 10 years old.

I expected them to be putty after 10 years, they had been oven HT'd to 30 BHN and sized .357" for the throats of my FA revolver, they had been stored at room temp for 10 years. I checked the BHN on several of them and they were still 26 BHN. Sadly I never thought to check for any aging diameter increase. My routine is to cast and then gas check and size within a few days then oven HT. When I am ready to shoot them I then lube them in a die .001" larger than the sizing die.

Your bullets still at 28 BHN after 3 years and mine loosing 4 BHN in 10 years could be accounted for by the 7 year difference or by the percentage of tin. A higher tin percentage will age soften a bit quicker, my standard alloy is clip-on weights plus 2% added bar tin.

Rick

[geargnasher]

BABore, you have much more experience with the long-term studies of this than I do, and this is one of the things I've recently taken great interest in, since boolit growth weeks or months down the road has a really annoying effect on precisely fitted boolits seated in cases with the necks turned to give an exact loaded neck clearance dimension. Growth of even .0005" can take a good thing and make it a dangerous thing in short order if the tolerances are tight enough.

I find it interesting that your boolits stopped growing if they were sized right away, but maintained BHN even after the undized ones grew. I've never had a boolit grow more than about .002", in .45 Caliber, but I don't have many that are more than a year or two old. I did have one batch of 60/40 COWW/SOWW+ 1%Sn cast in 452374HP and sized .453" and lubed from about three years ago that I was going to ship to another member to try out, just for grins I checked them and they were .455". I zipped them throught the push-through again to make them the size I told him they'd be, but a question mark remained in my mind about what old boolits in my stockpile cabinet are doing while I'm asleep. I never did check the bhn of the aged ones, they were about nine a few weeks after casting, and performed very well in the .45 ACP. The only record of that I have is notes on targets.

I've noticed some basics, that arsenic content of an antimonial alloy affects the timeline of aging (duh), but how direct that correlation is between rate of age and rate of growth, I couldn't say. It seems from a few observations that most of the growth with air-cooled alloys happens right along with the hardening, but I have yet to do a really scientific study.

Generally, I work on a project-by-project basis, casting boolits ahead of time and shooting them in a week or a month, rarely stockpiling until I settle on a final load. There are only about three calibers that I care to be this precise with, and the boolits I stockpile for experimenting get sized and lubed just before loading since I'm not doing any super-hard heat treating with them, or the alloys are soft enough heat-treated to not be a problem sizing months after casting/heat-treating.

I'm paying more attention now to growth factors now, so it will be interesting to see more specifically what trends show themselves.

Gear

[btroj]

Babies, do you think the OHT made a difference in the growth over time? In other words, would they get the same size wether heat treated or not?
How does water dropping affect future growth of a bullet? I water drop everything out of convenience and wonder if that is why I haven't had trouble with bullets getting fatter with time.

This sure looks like an area screaming for a good, solid study. Too bad it requires months or even years to get a good handle on things.

Brad

[RobS]

btroj:
Brad,
What do you mean, it's only details and just because we can measure it, it doesn't mean it matters........................................... . I believe that is what you said.



BABore:
Bruce,
I've noted that sizing shortly afterwards also reduces the growth of antimony alloyed boolits as well and if done shortly after casting less than 1 BHN has been tested on the drive bands doing things this way. I don't have any lying around that are 2 and 3 years old. Like Gear mentioned it sounds like you are on top of us all in regards to this topic. I've used my oven at 200 degrees to speed up the aging process and I'm going to do some work on as cast diameter and BHN a few hours after casting and then do some "speed aging" in the oven and record the results just for light of experimenting.

[cbrick]

Well, a month and a half doesn't do it. The only thing I'm currently heat treating is for my long range FA 357 top end loads, this revolver likes 18 BHN. They are cast, sized & gas checked and then into the oven. My Star .357 die sizes my alloy at .3569" to .3572", if enough are measured that is about the spread and the average.

The throats on the FA are .3570" and very uniform, the bullets are a mild snug fit, if they grew much at all they will not chamber.

6 weeks ago I HT'd 500 for the next year or so, when sized (before HT) the diameter miked spot on. I just went and checked 9-10 of them, zero growth, not a tenth. Its only been 6 weeks for this batch but I typically do 400-500 at a time and a year or more later before they are used up and when loaded and fired they chamber perfectly so I can assume that a year+ doesn't grow them.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Interesting. That's one more example of sizing "green" boolits killing the age-growth. I wonder if this is a trend. Never thought of it before.

For the stuff that really matterson exact size, like I said, I size right before loading and shooting just to be sure, so I haven't created much of an opportunity to tell.

Gear

[cbrick]

I have many different containers of various bullets, some cast years ago and never used. They are all un-sized and not heat treated. I usually keep pretty good notes on things like as cast diematers, casting date etc. In the morning I'll see what I have that may be of use to this thread, ie, see if any grew on me.

Rick

[BABore]

Babies, do you think the OHT made a difference in the growth over time? In other words, would they get the same size wether heat treated or not?
How does water dropping affect future growth of a bullet? I water drop everything out of convenience and wonder if that is why I haven't had trouble with bullets getting fatter with time.

This sure looks like an area screaming for a good, solid study. Too bad it requires months or even years to get a good handle on things.

Brad

I have only observed the age growth with heat treated boolits. I haven't looked into any air cooled samples.

As far as water dropped verses oven heat treated boolits, I don't see any difference in hardness values at all. My WW boolits always get to 28-30 bhn with either method and my 50/50 always hits 20-22. I try to maintains a specific casting cadence and mold temperature so the results are the same. I rarely OHT anymore, now that I have it down pat.

As Gear mentioned, in alot of cases age growth is unwanted as the boolit already fits well. But, there are also cases where you may have a bore rider with a smallish nose. A bit of age can do wonders.

I have previously posted that I have experimented and tested the concept of producing a boolit with a hard shell and progressively softer core. With bigger boolit diameters it's fairly easy to do with good temperature control and alloy selection. IMO this is partly the reason that a longer cure time after hardening produces a more accurate boolit. It's easy to hardness test the boolit exterior. I always get max peak hardness withing a few days. When testing core hardness, the only reliable method I found was expansion tests in media. The quenched boolit has its exterior rapidly quenched while it's temperature is above the threshhold where hardneing occurs. It gets hard fast. What about farther into the boolit? There's a depth point where the alloy will harden and then a bit farther in where it won't because convection pulled the heat below the threshhold. I think the farther you get away from the exterior, the slower the hardness is to peak at this depth. That is likely why you have to wait longer for the accuracy and consistency. Increase the antimony and/or temperature before the quench and you deepen the transition point, decrease the wait time, and increase final hardness. Just theory on my part, but I got glimmers of this when I was playing around with HT temperatures and media tests. Myself, I like to cast a good hunting alloy that's hard, tough, and has a soft core for expansion. I purposely operate just above the HT temp threshhold and prefer to wait on my boolits.

[btroj]

I agree on the internal hardness thing with you. I like an allot for hunting that will heat treat to a higher Bhn yet stay malleable enough to upset some. This is mostly for my 45-70.
I don't shoot enough off a bench to be able to say that I have noticed differences in accuracy based upon how long a bullet has been sitting around.
This is an area that I need to look into more. I have a few bullets that fit pretty snug when cast, I wonder how they fit now?

RobS- when I say that it is only detail and that just because we can measure it dent mean it matters I mean just that. I can hardness test a group of bullets and say that some are 15 bhn and others are 19 bhn. This may have no real world affect on anything. If you are a plinker and they both shoot to your needs, did the differing hardness matter? I am only trying to point out that not everything has a practical application in all shooting arenas. If I was shooting for small groups I would weigh my bullets, I don't shoot for group so I don't. To me, it doesn't matter so I don't measure it.

This has been an interesting discussion on age growth. I have never personally seen it but don't doubt at all that it exists. Sadly, I mostly shoot Ruger an Marlin firearms and they aren't too picky about a fat bullet. That may be part of why I haven't seen this, my guns allow even a fatter than normal bullet to chamber.

Brad

[cbrick]

I went through some old boxes of bullets I have stored, found a box of 100 of RCBS 7mm 145 gr bullets. I gotta melt some of this stuff down, they are dated January 28, 1995. There were a half dozen in the box that had been sized/lubed .285" @ .2848", the rest are as cast. All of them are air cooled clip-on WW +2% tin.

Note with them say as cast diameter of .2849". Today they are .2851". The sized ones today are .285" +- a couple of tenths, not perfectly round so measuring tenths is tough.

I also found a box of SAECO #071 dated 1996 but this mold casts so out of round it's tough to say what they actually cast at, I dumped these back in the pot.

From this I would say it's a safe bet air cooled WW doesn't grow with age, sized or not and if they do its a matter of a couple of tenths, insignificant in my book.

Rick

[geargnasher]

[snip]...
From this I would say it's a safe bet air cooled WW doesn't grow with age, sized or not and if they do its a matter of a couple of tenths, insignificant in my book.

Rick

Thanks for checking, Rick.

I wonder why we seem to be having such different results.

My short-term experiences have shown on many occasions using a similar alloy that there is significant growth in the first month, most of which takes place in the first week, when air-cooling and not sizing until later. I've also seen size grow in the same short period of time with sized boolits, but I wouldn't say that in some instances the sizing doesn't curb the growth rate. All I know for sure is that I've seen up to .002" in a week after casting with .45 caliber, and about a thousandth or so in .30 and .35 caliber using clip-on wheel weights with about one percent added tin. It's the effect of sizing and the long term effects that I never really studied.

Gear

[45 2.1]

I rarely OHT anymore, now that I have it down pat.

All that time of telling me 435 degrees...... Hee hee hee.......:mrgreen:

To everyone else:
For the record .......... it makes a very great difference what alloy you choose and the way you cast. Results vary quite a bit.

[felix]

Yes, it does, and sometimes big-time. ... felix

[BABore]

All that time of telling me 435 degrees...... Hee hee hee.......:mrgreen:

To everyone else:
For the record .......... it makes a very great difference what alloy you choose and the way you cast. Results vary quite a bit.

That was so it would sink in you old fart!:mrgreen:

For everyone else;

Using 50/50 WW-Pb, I found that OHTing at 435 F, for an hour, followed by a quench in 55 F water would produce the same exterior hardness and core softness as my water drop technique. To get consistent water dropped boolits I had to have the mold at a temperature that would make the entire sprue go from liquid to shiny-solid in 3 seconds. This was followed by a 3-4 second cooling in front of a HS fan, then cut. A small amount of sprue material would be torn out which doesn't affect accuracy to any extent. That's how you can get WD'd and OHT'd boolits to come out to the same hardness. Increasing the oven temperature to just below the slump point didn't/doesn't increase hardness. It does increase the skin or depth of hardness. The 50/50 alloy I use is based on near pure (5-6 bhn) lead and WW's. Sorted WW's that will HT to 28-30 bhn when used straight.

[45 2.1]

That was so it would sink in you old fart!:mrgreen:

I listened, but didn't change.............. your the guy that changed to my method............ Hahaha you somewhat less old fart.

[btroj]

How important is that additional cooling in front of the fan before water dropping? I water drop but drop them right after cutting the sprue. I shot a bear last year with a bullet that was 11 to 12 bhn air cooled but 22 or so water dropped. They would expand a bit in the clay berm at 100 yards when started at 1650 from my Marlin 1895. Leading was slight, not enough to bother me for a plain base hunting load. This is my idea of a good hunting alloy.
It sure looks like I am way under recording/ measuring things. I have bullets I sized long ago and I have no idea what they measured then. I just sized em. You guys sure make me look lazy.......

[cbrick]

Good, complete notes are as important in casting as it is in handloading.

I'm the opposite of BaBore, I never water drop anymore, if I'm going to HT they go in the oven though very few get hardened. Most of my handgun and rifle loads work well with air cooled WW but HT does have its place and can be a useful tool for the caster.

This is a permanent fixture in my loading room, it is on a bench right next to a laundry room type sink. Each of those three pans will hold 300 35 caliber bullets at a time, far more of a smaller caliber of course. Far to easy to do them all at once and have the uniformity of the convection oven and they all hit the same temp water at the same time. The pans are flat bottom spagetti pans with the hole enlarged for better water flow. Notice the clips on the sides of the pans so that they cannot go deep enough into the pan below to touch the bullets in the lower pan.

Rick

[geargnasher]

If you get 300 35-cal boolits in each, I'm guessing you pile them in there? Looks like I've been wasting my time standing them on their bottoms and meditating before the quick transfer from convection rack to bucket without knocking any over until the quick flip/dump.

Gear

[cbrick]

All stood on end so the weight of one isn't on others. The pans must be a bit larger than the picture makes them look huh.

Rick

[BABore]

How important is that additional cooling in front of the fan before water dropping? I water drop but drop them right after cutting the sprue. I shot a bear last year with a bullet that was 11 to 12 bhn air cooled but 22 or so water dropped. They would expand a bit in the clay berm at 100 yards when started at 1650 from my Marlin 1895. Leading was slight, not enough to bother me for a plain base hunting load. This is my idea of a good hunting alloy.
It sure looks like I am way under recording/ measuring things. I have bullets I sized long ago and I have no idea what they measured then. I just sized em. You guys sure make me look lazy.......

It all depends on the mold size, boolit diameter, and how it holds heat. I'm facing the sprue plate in front of the fan as soon as it solidifies. The sprue is still shiny at that point. If I were to do it without the fan, the mold blocks would cool more than I would want while waiting on the sprue to set up just enough. If I used a wet rag, then you tend to over cool the plate too much. I ladle cast and pour a real generous sprue so it keeps the plate hot.

On bigger boolits I usually have to also hold the open, empty mold in front of the fan for several seconds after dumping. All timing to keep a very consistent block and sprue plate temperature.

[cbrick]

If you get 300 35-cal boolits in each, I'm guessing you pile them in there? Looks like I've been wasting my time standing them on their bottoms and meditating before the quick transfer from convection rack to bucket without knocking any over until the quick flip/dump. Gear

Hhmmm . . . Got to thinking about this, did you think it was a toaster oven? It is a full size convection oven and the pan diameter takes up the entire interior.

Bullets are stood on their base against each other to help hold them up when they head for the sink. 35 caliber and up and there isn't a lot of problem with them falling over, the smaller the caliber and a few will tip over when hitting the water, doesn't seem to hurt anything. I don't dump them in the sink, I set the pans down in the sink and leave them sit in the pans.

I do pretty much as BaBore does with the fan (except the water dropping). I pretty much need to with the really great sprue plates on the MP and NOE molds. The much thicker steel of the plates holds more heat much longer than either aluminum or brass so I hold the sprue towards the fan to cool the sprue, keep the plate from getting too hot and not cool the mold more than needed.

I also ladle cast and pour a very large sprue, I hold the mold over the pot and let the lead flow over the side of the mold. Put the ladle back in the pot and with the tip of a gloved finger across the side of the mold while its still really soft breaks off the excess and it falls back into the pot leaving just the sprue on top.

Rick

[BABore]

That sounds like me casting.

I too flick the drippings off and usually the big lump at the free end of the plate which I run away from me. A quick trip to the fan, then back over the pot where I hand cut the sprue and dump it right back into the pot. A quick base check while it's heading to be dumped.

[geargnasher]

Rick, I know what you're using, but I was off a bit on the scale of the baskets in my mind, it just seemed like a high number for the size of your baskets. I've been wanting to use some sort of basket like that to make quenching easier and to keep the boolits from impacting anything during or at the end of the dive. I use a small countertop convection/toaster oven that does ok of heat even-ness, better than a conventional full-size oven by far.

Gear

[RobS]

Oven “Speed Aging” of Antimony Alloyed Cast Bullets

BHN/Diameter Testing:

Cast Bullet: 300 Grain LFN style--268 bullets total
Alloy: Air cooled supposedly WW
BHN tester: Homemade 5/32 ball bearing; 60 lbs pressure impressions; similar to the Lee Tester
Oven: Convection oven
Oven Temp: 200 degrees
Oven thermometer: Taylor oven thermometer

Three tested bullets:
1. Control bullet- not sized or oven treated
2. Bullet sized to .4531 and oven treated
3. Un-sized bullet and oven treated

Two Hours after cast- preliminary measurements:
1. Control bullet: .4559 bullet diameter; with a .0694 indention = 10.7 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4531 bullet diameter; with a .0694 indention = 10.7 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4560 bullet diameter; with .0695 indention = 10.7 BHN
*all un-sized bullets measured were between .4559-.4560 with all bullets having a BHN of 10.7

I placed all bullets (267), excluding the one control bullet, in the oven for the first 1 hour, 200 degree treatment. I placed the sized test bullet and the un-sized test bullet in the middle of the pan surrounded by the other 265 bullets.

Session 1 measurements:
Oven at 200 degrees and bullets in for an hour while being left in the oven to cool with a total time of 2 hours--approximately 4 hours after initially being cast:

1. Control bullet: .4559 bullet diameter; with .0694 indention = 10.7 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4531 bullet diameter; with a .0611 indention = 13.9 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4559 bullet diameter; with a .0612 indention = 13.9 BHN

After 8 hours from the end of the 1st session or 12 hours after being cast I re-measured the three bullets prior to the 2nd oven aging session.

1. Control bullet: .4558 bullet diameter; .0662 indention = 11.8 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4531 bullet diameter; .0611 indention = 13.9 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4560 bullet diameter; .0610 indention = 13.9 BHN

Session 2 measurements:
Back in the oven at 200 degrees and the same procedure as session 1 was utilized. Bullets cooled in the oven and then measurements were taken. Total time from initial casting session was 14 hours.

1. Control bullet: .4559 bullet diameter; .0662 indention = 11.8 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4531 bullet diameter; .0571 indention = 16 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4560 bullet diameter; .0572 indention = 16 BHN

I plan to keep these bullets so I can do a one month follow up. I suspect the untreated bullet will “catch up” to the oven treated. My next venture will be into water quenched bullets to see if there is any growth with oven speed aging as well as to chart BHN readings.

For your viewing pleasure:
http://i612.photobucket.com/albums/tt206/RobS01/IMG_4549.jpg
The top left is the initial impressions 2 hours after cast then the bottom left is just after the first oven session. The bottom right impression was taken just before doing the 2nd session (12 hours after being initially being cast). The top right impression was just after the completion of the second oven session.

[Char-Gar]

Lord give me patience, and do it RIGHT NOW!

[williamwaco]

\
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------
From this I would say it's a safe bet air cooled WW doesn't grow with age, sized or not and if they do its a matter of a couple of tenths, insignificant in my book.
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Rick
Ditto: +1

I have some H&G No 51s that I cast in May of 1972. I sized them. .357 and checked them with my dial caliper of the time.

I no longer have that dial caliper but my new one says they are .357.

All the comments about bullets growing got me interested in testing the effect of time on size so I bought a high quality Micrometer and began some testing with newly cast bullets from the same mold.

It says those 1972 bullets are .3568 to .3572. Of course none of them are perfectly round.

My current tests indicate no change in any measurement after about 30 minutes. Of course those changes were shrinkage, not growth - and this test has only been going on for one week.

[milprileb]

Are we at the end of the internet yet?

[RobS]

Oven “Speed Aging” of Antimony Alloyed Cast Bullets

Continued- Test conducted similar to the air cooled testing in Post #75.

BHN/Diameter Testing:

Cast Bullet: 300 Grain LFN style--30 bullets total mixed in with 200+ other bullets
Alloy: Water Quenched WW
BHN tester: Homemade 5/32 ball bearing; 60 lbs pressure impressions; similar to the Lee Tester
Oven Temp: 200 degrees
Oven thermometer: Taylor oven thermometer

Three tested bullets:
1. Control bullet- not sized and not oven treated
2. Bullet sized to .4525 and oven treated
3. Un-sized bullet and oven treated

Two Hours after cast- preliminary measurements:
1. Control bullet: .4556 bullet diameter; with a .0521 indention = 19.3 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4525 bullet diameter; with a .0522 indention = 19.3 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4558 bullet diameter; with .0520 indention = 19.3 BHN
*all un-sized bullets measured were between .4556-.4558 with all bullets having a BHN of 19.3

I placed the test bullets along with 200 other bullets, again excluding the one control bullet, in the oven for the first 1 hour, 200 degree treatment. You may ask why the importance of the other bullets and I do this so the oven temp stays more consistent.

Session 1 measurements:
Oven at 200 degrees and bullets in for an hour while being left in the oven to cool with a total time of 2 hours--approximately 4 hours after initially being cast:

1. Control bullet: .4557 bullet diameter; with .0500 indention = 20.9 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4526 bullet diameter; with a .0472 indention = 23.8 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4560 bullet diameter; with a .0471 indention = 23.8 BHN

After 8 hours from the end of the 1st session or 12 hours after being cast I re-measured the three bullets prior to the 2nd oven aging session.

1. Control bullet: .4558 bullet diameter; .0483 indention = 22.7 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4526 bullet diameter; .0471 indention = 23.8 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4561 bullet diameter; .0470 indention = 23.8 BHN

Session 2 measurements:
Back in the oven at 200 degrees and the same procedure as session 1 was utilized. Bullets cooled in the oven and then measurements were taken. Total time from initial casting session was 14 hours.

1. Control bullet: .4559 bullet diameter; .0482 indention = 22.7 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4526 bullet diameter; .0461 indention = 24.8 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4562 bullet diameter; .0460 indention = 24.8 BHN

[geargnasher]

They're growin'! It will be interesting to see what the air-cooled control boolits from both tests will do in a week compared to your twice-cooked ones.

Gear

[RobS]

My plan was to check them in a month but............................to be continued.

Just for the heck of it I took some of the 1st test's air cooled boolits that had been through the two oven treatments and put them in with the water quenched ones this last go around. I wanted to see if there was any more change in them with three exposures. They stayed put with no change to the BHN.

[geargnasher]

It was misting light rain here last night, so I took advantage and cast some 50/50 WW/roof flashing Lee 457-340-RF, water quenched.

I air-cooled every tenth one to check fillout quality, and an hour after casting I compared hardness and diameter for an averate of ten.

The air cooled ones were .4570"-.4573", very close but slightly out of round, the water quenched ones were .4578"-.4581", same slight out of roundness.

The quenched ones were 10.3 bhn, the air cooled ones were 7.8 bhn with my Lee tester.

Gear

[RobS]

Oven Speed Aged; Air Cooled set of bullets:

End Data on 5/18/11: Post # 75
1. Control bullet: .4559 bullet diameter; .0662 indention = 11.8 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4531 bullet diameter; .0571 indention = 16 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4560 bullet diameter; .0572 indention = 16 BHN

Latest Data: 5/27/11
1. Control bullet: .4560 bullet diameter; .0570 indention = 16 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4531 bullet diameter; .0571 indention = 16 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4560 bullet diameter; .0571 indention = 16 BHN



Oven Speed Aged; Water Quenched (from the mold) set of bullets

End Data on 5/19/11: Post # 79
1. Control bullet: .4559 bullet diameter; .0482 indention = 22.7 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4526 bullet diameter; .0461 indention = 24.8 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4562 bullet diameter; .0460 indention = 24.8 BHN

Latest Data: 5/27/11
1. Control bullet: .4561 bullet diameter; .0460 indention = 24.8 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4526 bullet diameter; .0460 indention = 24.8 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4563 bullet diameter; .0459 indention = 26.0 BHN ***(according to the conversion chart at .045", however, this bullet is closer to the others at near 25 BHN)

[kbstenberg]

Babore a question please. Could you give me directions on threads where you explains more on the specifics on the alloy you use for your WC WW and some more details on how you go about Water dropping your bullets. PLEASE
Kevin

[RobS]

Oven Speed Aged; Air Cooled set of bullets:

Data for 6/18/11 (31 days out)
1. Control bullet: .4561 bullet diameter;.0562 indention = 16.6 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4531 bullet diameter; .0561 indention = 16.6 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4560 bullet diameter; .0562 indention = 16.6 BHN



Oven Speed Aged; Water Quenched (from the mold) set of bullets

Data for 6/18/11 (30 days out)
1. Control bullet: .4561 bullet diameter; .0458 indention = 26 BHN
2. Sized bullet: .4526 bullet diameter; .0459 indention = 26 BHN
3. Un-sized bullet: .4563 bullet diameter; .0457 indention = 26 BHN


At this point the bullets are pretty much staying the same diameter but have picked up just a bit of hardness.

[geargnasher]

Rob, I was looking for this thread earlier but didn't find it. Glad you dug it up.

My results from yesterday evening (not quite a month, I cast my samples on 19 May) are as follows, I quit averaging ten and just tested one each from the median of the original average:

Day two: WD 15.4 bhn, .4580"-.4583", AC 8.2 bhn, .4575"-.4579".
Day four: WD 16.6 bhn, .4581"-.4584", AC 9.8 bhn, .4579"-.4583".
Day 12: WD 18.6 bhn, .4581"-.4584", AC 10.4 bhn, ..4580"-.4583" (I must have ironed our a high spot with the mic anvil, the skinny side grew but the fat side did not on the AC boolit).
Day 29: WD 20.9 bhn, .4581", .4584", AC 10.7 bhn, .4580"-.4583".

Gear

[RobS]

Gear:
Interesting that our WD WW alloyed boolits showed similarities but our AC samples were different. I don't know if it has anything to do with our casting technique or not but I know that my mold temp is hot leaving my straight WW bullets quite frosted. I can anneal the same 15-16 BHN bullets in the oven and have them stabilize out at 11-12 BHN so there is something to how hot the boolits drop from the mold.

Was you alloy straight up WW?

[pcmacd]

The initial aging period of a week or two after casting is when they can grow in size. Depending on the antimony % as to the amount of growth. Some have had .0005 and some people have even stated .001. I'm seeing .0004-.0007 ish with my results however sizing within 24 hours after casting does reduce these numbers.

Without knowledge of the diameters of the bullets you refer to here, the grown diameter numbers (in inches, I presume) are not meaningful.

A percentage of growth would be useful regardless of caliber.

If I am casting a 0.223" bullet, a difference of 0.001" over time means more than if I am casting a 45 caliber bullet.

Make sense?

[brad925]

Seeing the pot has already been stirred i may as well have a go. I am anal about accuracy in my smokeless hunting rifles. If i cant get it to shoot a minimum of 1MOA it gets a new home or a new barrel. In cast it does depend on what i am doing with it as far as as accuracy and distance when it comes to the details. Out to 200 yds a reasonable consistant boolit weight is important. 3 or 4gr variance i can live with and still have under a 2" group. But when you get to competition like silhouettes out to 500 and targets beyond the details are everything.Weight,boolit profile, lead composition, fill out, sizing and fit, all need your utmost attention if you are to succeed.
Now with all that said dont get me wrong. I find nothing wrong with trying to reach prefection. To me i find casting and reloading relaxing and i enjoy it. My only advice is if you dont enjoy casting and reloading and your trying to do everything as fast as you can stick to factory ammo. Or at very least keep your expectations low. You get out of it what you put into it.