Developing Loads for my .357 Mag and 35.303

[Jacko.357]

Morning folks, bear with me, long post, lots of questions and musing's most of which I've discussed addinfinitum with a mate with lots of cast bullet experience but always open to others sharing there experience !!!

I've just started Casting my own projectiles. At present I'm on a budget and am using a borrowed Lyman 358 315 mould for my 35.303. I have swapped some Leatherwork for an Ideal 357 446 mould for my .357 mag

I'm confident I have the .357 mag sorted - here's what I'm doing.

At present I'm shooting Westcast .358 158gr RNFP 15gr AR2205 and 180gr RNFP 13.5gr AR2205 from it with excellent accuracy and zero leading. Sure the Westcasts are good value but this is an exercise in greater self sufficiency with my shooting.I have previously established .358 cast projectiles shoot well.

I have a .358 Lee resizing die. My Rossi M92 has .350 Bore / .357 Groove

I'll be pan lubing using homemade lube 200 grams Red Carnuba Wax, 200 grams Bees Wax, 100 grams Parrafin, 100ml ATF. It's not quite the consistency of crayon when set. Don't know at this stage if it will require stiffening up with a little more Bee's Wax ?? Parrafin ?? Carnuba ???. Any suggestions or experience to share ???

I also have a bottle of Lee ALOX lube. Is it worthwhile lubing with this alone or perhaps lubing with ALOX then pan lubing. Waste of time ??? One or the other ?? I'm drawn to making my own shooting / hunting gear so mixing my own lube holds lots of appeal !!

I am limited just now in projectile choice for the .357 mag to the Ideal .357 446 mould, a plain base SWC. It feeds slickly through my lovely Rossi's action, guess I'll find out soon enough if it will shoot.

With a view to the the plain base projectile I've cast from straight wheel weights I have loaded up only one load at the moment 161gr 357 446 6.7gr of AP70N [ Universal ]. Book suggests about 1400 fps, I'll mess about with this load up or down looking for best accuracy and function.

AP70N fills the case well but it does not develop the .357'mags full ballistics. I have another option of AR2205 which is finer grained and at least in my experience is best with stiffer loads. As my lube's performance is unknown at this stage I am leaning towards the slower velocity's the AP70N loads will develop.

I will be buying a RNFP mould similar to the Westcasts but Gas Checked for my .357 mag. I'll develop faster hunting loads with AR2205 once I purchase this mould.

35.303 - This is where I am a little patchy

I know I should do a chamber cast and slug my barrel but due to my impatience I have cast projectiles using a borrowed Lyman 358 315 mould and curiousity is killing me as too how well these projectiles will shot. It casts a .359 208 gr gas checked projectile from straight wheel weights.

I am saving at present for a custom mould and do intend to do a chamber cast to determine throat length and slug my barrel to determine bore and groove diameter for the 35.303. I'd like something around 230 gr and be able to replicate my Jacketed loads but this is a way off yet. If the 358 315 projectiles shoot I'll be quite happy and cast up a mess of projectiles to hold me over until I get the custom mould.

I only have AR2208 powder on hand. It fills the case very well. I currently use 44 grains under a 225 grain Sierra Gameking projectile. This load fills the case almost to the base of the case neck and shows zero signs of pressure. It simply struck a sweet spot with the Rifle. No actual chrony numbers but according to Data I have approx 2200 fps.

I have loaded some rounds with 38 grains of AR2208 under the 358 315 projectiles [ 208 grain ] Judging from load data I have this should give me around 2000fps. I guess I'll find out if they shoot soon enough. I have seated the gas checks and sized them through my Lee .358 sizing die

If the .358 sizing die proves unsatisfactory I will buy a .359 sizing die and keep the .358 die for my .357. I really should slug my barrel !!!!!!

I have a copy of Lymans 3rd edition at hand. I read Loads using fast Pistol Powders being used with Cast Bullets loads and similar cartridges to my 35.303. Usually they talk of Unique or 2400 powder with velocity around 1600 fps. As I use similar powders for my .357 mag and .44 mag Lever Rifles there is not just a curiousity factor but a practicality factor also.

One thing that has me pondering though is I often read of these reduced loads with fast Pistol Powders and no filler. I'm not sure I'm sold on using fillers but for the life of me I can't work out how the powder stays up against the Primer without fillers. Any thoughts on the use of such Powders and the pro's and cons of fillers in cartridges such as my 35.303 where air space must be an issue ???

Paper Patching - is an option for me to achieve my 35.303's full ballistic potential ??? I have done some research and am intrigued !!!! Any folks here Paper Patch for plus 2000 fps 35 calibre Rifles

I have my 1894 Marlin .44 mag to develop cast loads for next - barely touched the surface and I'm hooked.

regards Jacko

[gerrycan]

Welcome to the madness Jacko, I,m in Aus and also shoot 35/303 etc. I think you are on the right track but you need to be "scientific" and take one step at a time.I think you have enough stuff to get started with so eliminate one load or rifle at a time. I shoot at some ranges that are limited to 1500 fps so I,m used to light loads[mostly Trailboss and Unique] PM me if I can help I will,regards, Gerry.

[Mk42gunner]

Jacko.357

I'm not an expert on making lubes, but it sounds to me like you have more carnuba wax in your mix than is absolutely necessary. Look up the FWFL short version in the stickies in the lube section. Once I made my first batch, I haven't tried any other formulas.


I'm not familiar with most of the powders you list, so no advice there.

Take a few minutes and slug your rifle barrel, it will tellyou the minimum sizing diameter pretty quick.

Have fun and be safe,

Robert

[303Guy]

I'm not familiar with most of the powders you list,AR2208 is Varget and AR2205 is H4227. The lots will differ and the consistancy will no doubt be better with Hodgdon's powders but they are the same thing.

Jacko.357, I would suggest you could use AR2205 as well as AR2208 for cast in your 35-303. I would think that velocities with cast would be in the 2000 - 2200 fps range with AR2208 and less with AR2205. The 35-303 has the same case capacity as the 358 Winchester (but a lower working pressure - something like the starting loads for the 358).

Check out this link for Lyman loads.
http://www.castpics.net/project2/CastDatalist.php?start=2861

Fillers - you could safely use wheat bran over 2205 in your 35-303. It does raise the pressure a little. Dacron or polyester fibre is grat stuff for holding the powder against the primer. Very little is required. It should not be compressed into the case. Wheat bran should be slightly compressed only. Cotton wool works fine but can start fires! Wheat bran has a bore cleaning action. It also forms a wad behind the boolit.

[Jacko.357]

Thanks for the reply's fella's. First up I'm wrapt 2 out of 3 know the 35.303. Seems there is quite a community of them out there.

303Guy, Thankyou for the link, I will study it. Just curious. As ADI make these powders for Hodgdon I assume your reference to greater consistency is a reference to greater quanity of the same batch numbers being shipped to the USA and smaller lots sold here.

Still not sold on fillers, something intuitive in me that a wad of filler with the potential to scrub a bore can't be good for a $1000 match grade barrel. I am still open to this option though. I will look further into it as I am intrigued with the versatility of fast Pistol powders

MK42gunner, you are the second person to mention to me about the quanity of Carnuba wax I used. From the little I know for sure , the advice I've been given and what I've researched I had pondered if I need to dilute this mix a little with more Bee's Wax. With luck I'll get a chance to shoot and see on Sunday.

gerrycan, thanks for you offer of assistence I'm sure I'll call on your help. Not sure if my process is Scientific but on Sunday I will be shooting only the loads I mentioned earlier from these Rifles and annilizing the groups or patterns [ hope not ] and checking the Bores of both Rifles for leading. I do not expect the .357 mag Rossi to lead.

I'm not a betting man and would not take odds on the 35.303. I suspect I need to mess with the lube, size of the projectile simply as I ordered .358 spec barrel from TSI. Off track a little but the quality of this barrel is AMAZING- I'll know soon enough if straight wheel weights will obuterate enough after being sized to .358 and whether I also need to mess with the alloy I'm using.

I am enjoying the exercise my Noggins getting on this learning curve

regards Jacko

[MBTcustom]

Hey there Jacko, I just got done building a 35/303 to my own specs on the military rifles forum. I love the concept of this rifle and it seems to fill a niche that no other firearm can.
If you find any reloading info can you PM me?

[Jacko.357]

goodsteel. I have spent a lot of time looking for online 35.303 data, there is nothing meaningfull out there. I was given some computer programme generated data by a fella that built his 35.303 using a Mk4 No1 action. I built mine on a No1 Mk3 action so I started 2 grains under his minimum levels.

Bearing in mind to this point I have only fired jacketed bullets in my 35.303 I can not offer advice on any other projectile than the 225 grain Sierra Gameking. Initially I am planning too get a mould made in 225 gr to 235 gr range but also have plans for a 250 to 270 gr cast projectile. I know one chap who shoots a 300 grain Cast projectile from his 35.303.

I started at 42 grains of AR2208 / Varget and struck a sweet spot with my Rifle at 44 grains of AR2208 / Varget. I had loads up to 45.5 grains that simply did not shoot as well. 44 grains of AR2208 / Varget fills the case to approx the bottom of my case's shoulder.

I have seen no need to push past 45.5 as 44 grains shoot's so well but there may well be another sweet spot with stiffer loads. At 45.5 grains of AR2208 Bolt Lift was silky smooth and there was zero pressure signs with the case. The data I was given indicates a max load of 48.9 grains. which would be a slightly compressed load in my cases. My case neck is close enough too one calibre deep.

I cross referenced my results and the data given to me with .358 Winchester loads listed on Hodgdon's and ADI website and am 100% satisfied that as .303guy has eluded too that 10% under Hodgon's or ADI's starting .356 / .358 Winchester loads are a good place too start, I'd bet you'll finish up a couple of grains under listed max loads for the .358 Winchester.

I have just spent a bit of time looking through the link that 303guy posted above and it looks very handy, thanks for that.

Next question I have relates to that link - the old H4227 same as IMR 4227 debate.

Another thought arising from looking over the data in the link is how the heck can ADI powders made in Australia under the Hodgdon banner be 1/2 the price in the USA ???????????????????????????????

regards Jacko

[Mk42gunner]

AR2208 is Varget and AR2205 is H4227. The lots will differ and the consistancy will no doubt be better with Hodgdon's powders but they are the same thing.


Thanks for the info, I knew ADI made a lot of Hodgdon's powders but was unsure of exactly what ones. Instead of giving bad (or dangerous) advice, I would rather admit that I don't know.



Another thought arising from looking over the data in the link is how the heck can ADI powders made in Australia under the Hodgdon banner be 1/2 the price in the USA ???????????????????????????????

regards Jacko

Taxes?? Competition in the marketplace bringing prices down?? Economy of scale?? Who knows for certain.

Robert

[303Guy]

Still not sold on fillers, something intuitive in me that a wad of filler with the potential to scrub a bore can't be good for a $1000 match grade barrel.Agreed! I do believe though, that the 'scrubbing' effect is only a cleaning action which 'might' be good for cast boolits in so far as it keeps leading down to acceptable levels. But with AR2208 being a 100% load density for J-words, a 80% to 90% load density would seem to me to be perfect for cast boolits without any filler hassles. It worked very well in my 303 Brit with a milsurp barrel. I did use a heavy boolit laced with my own lube concoction which I refer to as 'waxy-lube'. It's simply Lee Alox with candle wax and STP smoke stopper. I melt it in a little pot I made using high wattage resistors as heaters.

This a loaded boolit dipped in the stuff.
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-338F_edited.jpg

I wish I had put all seven of my test loads through the same target!
http://i388.photobucket.com/albums/oo327/303Guy/MVC-457F_edited.jpg

To be fair, that was only 45m but then again, my heard-beat was causing as much 'spread' as the target shows.

Point is - you have the world at your feet with your rifle! I wouldn't be surprized if'n you produced bug-hole groups.:drinks:

Same applies to goodsteel.:drinks:

[Jacko.357]

303guy your Waxy Lube has me thinking again, I had never heard of dipping loaded projectiles in that manor.

It's already a 3/4 MOA Rifle with Jacketed bullets, I'd be dissapointed if I could not eventually match this with cast. I'd rather it was a 3 or 4 Red Stag Rifle though :bigsmyl2:

In the last few day's I have began too ponder that in order to take advantage of the case filling capacity of AR2208 and the 1:12 twist rate whether I should just skip to a 250 to 270 grain mould instead of worrying about a lighter projectile.

Off to the range toomorrow so hopefully I've have a few answers

regards Jacko