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Char-Gar
05-12-2011, 01:00 PM
When describing the personality of some folks, I have heard it said..."He is the kind of guy that find a rattlesnake under every bush!"

A more literal translation is, he is the kind of guy that is always looking for problems and finds them where they don't exist.

As I read this board I see many such folks here. Just saying.....

thx997303
05-12-2011, 01:08 PM
Yeah well, that may be, but there's another saying, a prayer more like.


God grant me the strength
to accept the things I cannot change;
courage to change the things I can;
and wisdom to know the difference.

This is one of the things you aint changin, so be strong my friend.

1Shirt
05-12-2011, 01:19 PM
Have always been fond of the old Harry Truman saying regarding having his enemies on his staff. He said "I'd rather have them inside the tent p-----g out, than outside the tent p-----g in!

And the old Pa. Dutch sayin: "Ve get too soon old, and too late smart!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

Char-Gar
05-12-2011, 01:39 PM
Oh well, that is what I get for trying to be subtle. I have never done subtle well. I see many folks on this board worrying about things that are really non issues and making bullet casting and shooting far more complex than it is. Newbie read this stuff an get lost and frustrated with the artificial complexity of this stuff.

markinalpine
05-12-2011, 02:13 PM
To bad he's dead now, but the comedian Phil Hartman might have been able to create a character such as "the Anal Retentive Boolit Caster" or "the Anal Retentive Handloader."
:groner:
Mark [smilie=1:

sundog
05-12-2011, 02:21 PM
Yessir, just about everything I know, I've learned the hard way....

45 2.1
05-12-2011, 02:27 PM
When describing the personality of some folks, I have heard it said..."He is the kind of guy that find a rattlesnake under every bush!"

A more literal translation is, he is the kind of guy that is always looking for problems and finds them where they don't exist.

As I read this board I see many such folks here. Just saying.....

Yep, but just where do they have the knowledge to tell when they get the right stuff. Quite a few different viewpoints occur here... most of which works somewhat good to better. Which is the best for what they want..........???....... they won't know till they TRY IT and not repeat what they've read.

geargnasher
05-12-2011, 02:28 PM
Why is this even a topic?

THX covered it pretty well.

Gear

deltaenterprizes
05-12-2011, 02:37 PM
Oh well, that is what I get for trying to be subtle. I have never done subtle well. I see many folks on this board worrying about things that are really non issues and making bullet casting and shooting far more complex than it is. Newbie read this stuff an get lost and frustrated with the artificial complexity of this stuff.

You sir are correct, over the 25 years plus that I have been casting and reloading, I have found a lot of emphasis placed on minor details that would more suited for Bullseye or benchrest competition.
The beginner needs the info to produce decent lead slugs, size them to a nominal diameter for the caliber, properly prepare the brass case and prime it, charge the case with a safe amount of suitable powder, correctly seat the projectile to the maximum OAL and apply the proper crimp for the cartridge.
Most ammo will out shoot the shooter and many of the "must do" chores are much ado about nothing.
New loaders need to assemble ammo that functions and go shoot it to sharpen their shooting skills so they can hit the target and then worry about making little tiny groups with the ultimate boolit weight specific powder charge combo.
Safety concerns are the most important to the newbie.

Char-Gar
05-12-2011, 02:38 PM
Gear... Your are right. It isn't a topic worth the time. It really isn't even good self therapy for me. I could not find a way to delete it..so...just FIRGIT IT! I am going to go and water the yard now. It is very dry down this way.

Von Gruff
05-12-2011, 05:14 PM
I see many folks on this board worrying about things that are really non issues and making bullet casting and shooting far more complex than it is. Newbie read this stuff an get lost and frustrated with the artificial complexity of this stuff.

:drinks:

Von Gruff.

missionary5155
05-12-2011, 05:21 PM
Hey Charger Are them fires anywhere close to you ?
Mike

Recluse
05-12-2011, 05:44 PM
I was at an antique store yesterday in Granbury, Texas. I found an old-fashioned rotary dial telephone--one of the old metal ones with the metal dial.

The shop-owner even had it wired into a new wall type adapter. Out of curiosity, I tried the phone out--I used it to call my cell phone.

It worked just how I remembered them to work when I was growing up.

But when I used it to call in for a weather briefing (I was riding some weather out before flying out), I kept having a hard time with the prompts of "push one for. . ." and "push two for. . ."

But hey, the phone still basically worked and I could communicate same as I did forty-plus years ago. I just couldn't get a weather briefing or check my messages. I could almost hear Orville Wright calling me a big sissy.

So, I got home, albeit flying in some weather which could've been kind of dangerous if I had been some newbie pilot and didn't know what I was doing. When I got the plane back in the hangar, I took the old Model T and gave the hand-crank a couple of good turns and fired 'er up.

It was still raining by the time I finally got home three hours later--that ol' T won't quite hit the speeds my more modern pickup will, plus it leaks and the rain whips in and out all the time. So instead of 45 minutes in dry comfort with my favorite C&W station humming in the background, I had three hours of wet, bouncy, noisy and slow travel.

But hey, it got me home all the same, right?

Just saying. . .

:coffee:

gray wolf
05-12-2011, 07:28 PM
You sir are correct, over the 25 years plus that I have been casting and reloading, I have found a lot of emphasis placed on minor details that would more suited for Bulls eye or bench rest competition.
The beginner needs the info to produce decent lead slugs, size them to a nominal diameter for the caliber, properly prepare the brass case and prime it, charge the case with a safe amount of suitable powder, correctly seat the projectile to the maximum OAL and apply the proper crimp for the cartridge.
Most ammo will out shoot the shooter and many of the "must do" chores are much ado about nothing.
New loaders need to assemble ammo that functions and go shoot it to sharpen their shooting skills so they can hit the target and then worry about making little tiny groups with the ultimate boolit weight specific powder charge combo.
Safety concerns are the most important to the newbie.

I agree, but don't you think all that requires a little Minutia ?



Oh well, that is what I get for trying to be subtle.

SUBTLE ? I was never issued any

btroj
05-12-2011, 08:01 PM
Chargar, I feel your pain. As for subtle, why bother. It is lost on people today, sort of like sarcasm. People today want to be spoon fed.

Learning about shooting isn't done at a computer, it is done at the loading bench and the range. Period.

onondaga
05-12-2011, 08:05 PM
"As I read this board I see many such folks here. Just saying..... "

I have had enough counseling and therapy that I can confidently identify that statement as an insulting technique by the use of passive aggression that conceals the target of the insult by leaving an open statement and not naming names.

That doesn't take a lot courage. I prefer to tell people directly that they are wrong and back it up with accurate facts.

"geargnasher : Why is this even a topic?"

I agree.

Gary

runfiverun
05-12-2011, 09:43 PM
i think i see chargers point.
however many people see things from the what has worked for them perspective.
44 man for instance, hardness, seating pressure, and neck tension are what gets him by.
for others it's about size ,softness, and powder selection.
pure speed for some.
accuracy.
hunting.
price.
volumne.
pick a category user and your answer is gonna vary.

Recluse
05-12-2011, 09:53 PM
This is also probably not exactly a "beginner's forum" when it comes to reloading and shooting.

I think most folks shoot for a number of years before delving into the world of reloading--and then they spend a number of years in reloading before considering the joy of rotting your brain with lead fumes.

There ARE some complexities when it comes to reloading that will and do affect accuracy and consistency. There are those same things when it comes to casting.

If one simply strives for minute-of-gallon-water-jug at 25' with their reloads and cast boolits, then no, no complexities needed--only safety issues.

But if one wishes to do better, consistently, then the details begin to take over and become an inarguable factor.

:coffee:

leftiye
05-12-2011, 10:12 PM
Well said Recluse! Maybe another trajectory (may sound anal, but just ask yerself-) - "Why not do it right?" Gonna put that in my signature line(s).

stubshaft
05-12-2011, 11:59 PM
Leftiye, doing it right has many different meanings to different people. What works for you may not work for me. I understand what you are getting at but I (we) have gotten to where we are (in the casting scheme) by DOING it and experimenting with the variables. I can feel Chargars frustration when you read a thread by a noob about "which alloy for..." when it is obvious that they have not taken the time to even research it themselves.

cbrick
05-13-2011, 12:44 AM
Recluse, very, very well said in both posts.

Also already said is that different things are important to different people. For some casters as long as it comes out end of the barrel and they got it to do so as cheaply as possible they are happy campers, nothing else matters. Others want to know the details of what could make it better, more accurate, faster, whatever. More important to them is . . . WHY?

I've been casting for about 30 years and handloading much longer. I've been a member here for 5 years, in that 5 years I've learned more about casting than in the first 25. I am a better caster and better at figuring out why something does or does not work right.

Perhaps some new casters get caught up in the details when they first join here but that is a far better situation than when I started casting, no internet, no castboolits, little in the way of books that didn't just spread the old wives tales.

Details? You bet . . . Keep'em coming.

Rick

noylj
05-13-2011, 02:34 AM
The problem I see just in the last 10-15 years in many fields is the desire to find every possible problem and then try to solve them all at once.
You take a perfectly fine 1911 and, even before firing it or any other 1911, you have a beaver-tail safety, extended slide release, over-size mag release, ambi and large thumb safeties, a mag well, a full-length recoil rod installed, and get the front strap cut with 30 lpi checkering.
Then you wonder why it doesn't carry well or is temperamental.
The new reloader doesn't want to work up a load. He wants to know what "the load" is (for IDPA, SD, whatever) so he can immediately load that and be done.
All I read on forums are posts where the OP has just loaded a max load or within 0.2gn of max load, without working up, because that is what the "pros" are using. Then they want to know if the pressure signs are because he used a shorter COL than the self-named pros.

Bullwolf
05-13-2011, 05:16 AM
The problem I see just in the last 10-15 years in many fields is the desire to find every possible problem and then try to solve them all at once.
You take a perfectly fine 1911 and, even before firing it or any other 1911, you have a beaver-tail safety, extended slide release, over-size mag release, ambi and large thumb safeties, a mag well, a full-length recoil rod installed, and get the front strap cut with 30 lpi checkering.
Then you wonder why it doesn't carry well or is temperamental.
The new reloader doesn't want to work up a load. He wants to know what "the load" is (for IDPA, SD, whatever) so he can immediately load that and be done.
All I read on forums are posts where the OP has just loaded a max load or within 0.2gn of max load, without working up, because that is what the "pros" are using. Then they want to know if the pressure signs are because he used a shorter COL than the self-named pros.

An interesting 1911 analogy there, I liked it quite a bit.

It reminds me a bit of my life. The first pistol I ever shot as a teenager was my grandfathers old series 70 Colt 1911 brought home in his kit bag. I loved that gun, still own it and shoot it. He even had an old Colt Ace 22 conversion kit for it. I have had quite a few 1911's over the years, both Colts and other knock off brands.

Sometime around 1994 I decided that I absolutely needed this sexy stainless Colt Gold Cup Delta Elite National Match 1911, with an ambidextrous safety, extended slide release, full-length recoil guide rod, mag funnel, memory beaver tail grip safety, action job, bobbed hammer, trigger over travel stop, blah blah blah. You get the general idea.

To make a long story short, I got the overworked Colt series 80 1911, and I did not like it one bit. I shot my old 1911's just as well, if not better than the new fancy gun. So I simply went back to shooting my old series 70 guns again, and made noises about selling the modified gun.

My friend thought it was the best thing since sliced bread, and quickly bought it off me. I hope he is still happy with it. It was one of the few guns that I have sold in my life, that I don't miss to this day.

Don't get me wrong, there are some fine modifications that you can make to a 1911, but in general I think John Moses Browning got it just right out of the box. If I could change one thing it would be square trigger guard, but that's just my personal preference. If I was a lefty I would probably appreciate an ambi safety quite a bit more too, but there is such a thing as too much of a good thing too.

I like to shoot, and I like to reload. Sure I could just buy box ammunition, but I am a bit of a hands on sort of guy. I like building things with my hands. Working on my own cars too, and I enjoy casting and creating my own loads for my guns.

My Grandfather melted lead, and so do I. It makes me happy, and it helps keeps me in touch with a simpler time. It's ironic how as I get older, I find that some of the simpler things worked just fine, and in many cases they even work better than the complicated solutions we grew to rely on daily.

My own personally tailored loads often perform better for me than factory ammunition. Even more so when I match the load to the gun. I enjoy dialing in a load, stumbling upon, or intentionally working up really accurate load for a particular gun, or narrowing down what makes a problem child a finicky eater.

You get a certain sense of pride making your own, that you don't get if someone just hands something to you - Just like in real life.

Sure, I have learned a lot of things from the school of hard knocks, but I have learned quite a bit here reading other peoples problems, tips, and tricks, and even sometimes opinions too.

People can sometimes be stubborn, difficult to help, hardheaded and opinionated too, but there are a few real gems who post here often. They really help make the place the great community that it is. At the end of the day, that was what made me sign up and start posting, instead of simply lurking on the board.

You can't please everyone, and really why would you want to?

Thanks for letting me reminisce out loud.

- Bullwolf

303Guy
05-13-2011, 05:50 AM
I think many new casters and hand loaders want to talk about what they are doing and asking questions is talking. Getting answers is being in touch with others in their field of interest

leftiye
05-13-2011, 03:18 PM
Leftiye, doing it right has many different meanings to different people. What works for you may not work for me. Stubshaft

I'm sorry, but most of them are wrong. Thas all there can possibly be to that. Not by any means to be offensive (me?) but I see that as maybe merely being politically correct (gargle).

I was not advocating any set path in my statement. It's just that like "Just say no to drugs", there is always a point where we can choose to do a good job (to the best of our knowledge and ability), or we can choose to do a lesser, or maybe Half a$$ed job. And its so easy to choose the right.

Char-Gar
05-13-2011, 03:46 PM
"As I read this board I see many such folks here. Just saying..... "

I have had enough counseling and therapy that I can confidently identify that statement as an insulting technique by the use of passive aggression that conceals the target of the insult by leaving an open statement and not naming names.

That doesn't take a lot courage. I prefer to tell people directly that they are wrong and back it up with accurate facts.

"geargnasher : Why is this even a topic?"

I agree.

Gary

Send me the bill for your professional opinion. I will put it with the others I don't intent to pay. Read down to posts 4 and 10. They might be a little more to your liking. Don't know...just saying..

Oh yes... I have extensive training in counseling and I can say with some confidence you have some unresolved anger issues, that get directed inappropriately to folks on this forum. That will be a nickle please. We will talk about your God complex latter. :-)

Charles

PacMan
05-13-2011, 06:07 PM
Well seems that we have them hanging out and not sure WHOSE tape to use.

You know i have been working hard at learning the cast bullet thing.Been after it for just over a year now and because i am a member of this forum i know more than i should in such a short time.

I have always been the type of person who wanted to find his own way and that has caused it own problems in the past. But in doing so i have learned valuable lesson's that will not be forgotten. Yes i need help with some things, most likely a lot, but know that with presistance i wil prevail.

Having said that i have not ask some questions on this forum or any other because of some of the replys that i have seen given to similar questions asked here.

Do i fear you or your remarks-NO WAY. Either on the board or face to face. Life is to short to listen to somes shortcomings.

Dwight

303Guy
05-14-2011, 03:15 AM
dwight hardy, just go ahead and ask. You have the humour to take the replies as they come without taking offense. Remember that every seemingly 'dumb' question has several folks wanting to ask the same thing but just don't know how to word it or are just too shy to ask. Aiming that at everyone - not just you. Besides, it makes for conversation! (And hey, you'd be surprized at how much the rest of us learn from those question and answers - as well as the 'critical' ones. :drinks: (There ain't no-one who's perfect and can still call himself human).[smilie=1:

Canuck Bob
05-14-2011, 05:14 AM
To you experienced guys, everyone of you has helped and educated me. Many of us rookies like looking at details and techie stuff. Many newcomers are get-er-done guys and I suspect both types do well here. Thanks.

If you read more than a few posts you know Bullplate is good stuff for aluminum moulds. Dirty lead will drive you crazy in a bottom pour. Splash some coffee in your melt and get hurt. Sizing your bullets properly is job one. Decent start-up gear can be bought cheap but might need some tuning. Wow, this stuff makes casters not the opposite. The worst thing about any thing new is immediate and chronic failure without someone getting your back.

The most important lesson has been, no matter what problem I will encounter I'll get real solutions. Those solutions might be highly detailed or simple but I know they work.

Me, I'm the kinda guy who would choose lapping a small mould over beagling. I think the techie term is masochist.

I really love the technical arguments. Noone here has strong opinions! A man with the strength to speak up is a lot more valuable than a politician who governs by poll results.

Char-Gar
05-14-2011, 10:18 AM
Dwight.. I am with the others who say go ahead and ask. That is how learning happens. I guess the intent and meaning of the original post was to be "noobie friendly".

When I started casting I only had the Lyman 40 handbook and some advise of the local gunsmith which was brief. I just had to find my way through trial and error.

Today with the Internet, the new caster has many, many resources at their disposal. Quite often too many. The new caster is flooded with answers, some of which are fact and many of which are opinion. Some of the answers are directed to the question, but many leads the new caster down rabbit trails.

I try to put myself in the shoes of the new caster and doing so I would be perplexed and somewhat confused. Way to many of the answers are distractions rather than instructions. Way to many folks riding their own hobby horses and telling the new caster, it is the only way to get things done.

In all truth, the basic of casting are pretty simple and easy to learn. After the basic are learned, then things can get pretty complex, pretty fast. IMHO, the new caster should be helped with the basics in order to have success up front and not have to chaise their tales due to a flood of information which is often conflicting.

I will confess to being a teacher in one form or another all of my adult life. It concerns me that all to often the new casters are being confused rather than taught. So, I do have an agenda in all of this. I am not just trying to be a cranky old jerk.

I want more folks to start in casting and cast bullet shooting and to have quick success to encourage them to continue and not throw up their hands in frustration.

I should have know better than try and use indirect speech as such can be misconscrewed very easily. I just want to start a discussion and perhaps give folks something to think about if they are truly interested in helping new casters.

So, the bottom line is what is the agenda of those who answers new casters posts. It is to help the new caster or to demonstrate just how much knowledge the person has by making it far too complex. Is it about the new caster or about "me" (generic me).

Doby45
05-14-2011, 11:31 AM
Amen, Chargar..

geargnasher
05-14-2011, 12:20 PM
Dwight.. I am with the others who say go ahead and ask. That is how learning happens. I guess the intent and meaning of the original post was to be "noobie friendly".

When I started casting I only had the Lyman 40 handbook and some advise of the local gunsmith which was brief. I just had to find my way through trial and error.

Today with the Internet, the new caster has many, many resources at their disposal. Quite often too many. The new caster is flooded with answers, some of which are fact and many of which are opinion. This is true in all facets of life. It is up to the individual to develop the ability to judge what is useful and not to his particular needs. Some of the answers are directed to the question, but many leads the new caster down rabbit trails. This is the nature of forums. Usually there are enough folks interested in keeping the thread on track that it stays so.

I try to put myself in the shoes of the new caster and doing so I would be perplexed and somewhat confused. A much more difficult task than it might seem at first. This is evidenced for example by many of the greenhorns that struggle through 30 or 40 posts, only to find out that an FCD ring was causing their leading. They didn't know enough yet to realize that could cause an issue, and many of us don't think about it either because such knowledge is automatic to us, now. Way to many of the answers are distractions rather than instructions. I would say that that is a reflection of the different personalities of the posters, and we all have different ways of saying things. Way to many folks riding their own hobby horses and telling the new caster, it is the only way to get things done. Yep, I have quite a few hobby horses myself. Like don't ruin the poor fool by telling him it's ok to crank the pot temp up until the knob breaks off. The majority of people still tell the new guy that, and don't believe it matters, because they haven't figured it out yet themselves. I try to get newbies started off on the right foot with a good, basic understanding of the process and the most foolproof ways I know of to accomplish it. The laws of physics, the properties of metals, and thermodynamics, unknown to most uneducated people, affect our hobby greatly and are easy to understand if put in simple terms, and often knowing the underlying reasons for certain procedures will aid the new guy in correcting issues he may have later with a different mould, alloy, or gun. I think you'll find that many people are stuck in a rut that "works" for their purposes and naturally assume that it will be that way for everyone. This is where the "opinion" vs. "fact" comes in, I often lay out facts of nature, and people think it's "just your opinion". I think that good, old-fashioned Ignorance and Pig-headedness is the problem with many of these things, and I aim to bring as much light as I can to those who are interested, and maybe to a few who aren't interested.

In all truth, the basic of casting are pretty simple and easy to learn. Very true, but there are so many different opinions about what these basics ARE, that the confusion begins from the outset. After the basic are learned, then things can get pretty complex, pretty fast. IMHO, the new caster should be helped with the basics in order to have success up front and not have to chaise their tales due to a flood of information which is often conflicting. I couldn't agree more. I'm beginning to think that the only real solution here is to just keep referencing the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook or one of the other good bullet casting manuals rather than try to educate the basics over the internet. This brings me to mention a pet peeve of my own, the Slob Newbie. He's the guy who, like with everything else in his life, whips out his Uberphone and goes to Ask.com to find out how to make his own boolits. He follows a link to here, and demands that we tell him how to do it, but don't make it complicated or expensive. I wish I had a key that would reach through a monitor and slap the person on the other end sometimes.

I will confess to being a teacher in one form or another all of my adult life. It concerns me that all to often the new casters are being confused rather than taught. So, I do have an agenda in all of this. I am not just trying to be a cranky old jerk. I sure wish you would have said that in or OP, because it sure seemed to me you were just venting about people who seem to want to do nothing more than stir a pig ol' stinky pot of :dung_hits_fan:. which irritates me too, but that's life, not worth posting about.

I want more folks to start in casting and cast bullet shooting and to have quick success to encourage them to continue and not throw up their hands in frustration. I think that's why the fellers over at LASC put so much effort into their little "book" on casting, they had the same thing in mind. I think that's what most of us want here.

I should have know better than try and use indirect speech as such can be misconscrewed very easily. I just want to start a discussion and perhaps give folks something to think about if they are truly interested in helping new casters. Yes, you should have known better! Gary really nailed the reasons why! IF you wanted to stimulate the thoughts of those who are truly interested in helping new casters, THIS post is the way to do it, not the "indirect" way. Indirect barely works in person, and almost never at all on the internet.

So, the bottom line is what is the agenda of those who answers new casters posts. It is to help the new caster or to demonstrate just how much knowledge the person has by making it far too complex. Is it about showing-off, ego-inflation, or is it about telling the WHOLE story about what's going on in as many different ways as possible so that maybe, just maybe, the light will break through a crack somewhere and the person will have that "OH!" moment that they will remember and will help them for the rest of their time with this hobby. You know about teaching, and about different learning styles. I think a person gets a good smattering of info from lots of angles here, if they don't savvy the techicals, perhaps someone can make a simple analogy that they can understand. Is it about the new caster or about "me" (generic me).

It's about ME. If I didn't get some kind of reward out of reading and posting, I wouldn't do it. Neither would you.

Gear

btroj
05-14-2011, 12:31 PM
I agree entirely about newbie overload. The new caster needs to worry about getting the hang of casting good bullets. Then load and shoot them.
I have said it before and will ay it again- learning about casting and loading is done at the bench, pot, and range, not at a computer.
I think newbies are too often afraid that leading is a sign of failure. I view it as an opportunity to learn more. Why did it happen? What can stop it!
I think newbies see the topics discussed here and panic. They feel that they are all relevant, all the time. They worry over numbers like hardness rather than trying to understand what they mean and how to balance them.

I thought the original point by Chargar was well made. I agree entirely. Learning is an active process!

Brad

bhn22
05-14-2011, 12:40 PM
There are "reloaders", & "handloaders".Reloaders want to make their own ammo, for various reasons, and many develop into handloaders, who are the fussy guys who want to know what works, how it works, and why it works, and even why it doesn't work, and what will make it work. There are different levels of bullet casters too, also for vaious reasons. Some want just cheap bullets, some go far, far beyond that. And some go so far beyond that, that they're completely off the radar. This site has a difficult time addressing the needs of all these different groups sometimes, mostly because there are so many different levels of experience and interest. I've noticed extreme impatience between some of the more experienced members, most seemingly due to different priorities and different experiences. How many times have we seen a new member ask a basic question, then seen 2 or more of the more experienced members fight over their particular positions on the original question? There are a couple of threads right now with this going on. Meanwhile, what is the new guy supposed to think? Perhaps that this isn't worth the hassle because it's too complicated?

markinalpine
05-14-2011, 01:07 PM
HINT: Hover your cursor over the title in the forum list, and you'll get a BRIEF view of the first part of the post. If you're hypertensive, cranky, or out of sorts at the moment, and you think it might be one of those DUMB questions, then ignore it.
Mark :coffeecom

Smoke-um if you got-um
05-14-2011, 01:23 PM
[QUOTE=Chargar;1269209]Dwight.. I am with the others who say go ahead and ask. That is how learning happens. I guess the intent and meaning of the original post was to be "noobie friendly".

Charger- I agree with you, there are too many here that are callous and demeaning to the new guys asking questions. Just as 303Guy pointed out most just want to interact with a question/answer session, knowing their is a live body on the other end. An answer with some reference posts is a better way of guiding the new guy to the previous posts for additional information. Banging on the guy because he may not have the knowledge you possess only does harm, mostly on the guy doing the banging. I have taken several of these gentleman to task and have been warned by the moderators my actions are not to be tolerated. I have to agree with them and now simply tap the report this listing button and provide them with an opportunity to correct the situation. From what I've seen they, in most instances, take care of it. Anybody caring to disagree with me, feel free to do so. Courage manifests itself in many ways. The courage to start this post is one of of them. Ohh..... by the way...... "just sayin".....

Mike

Char-Gar
05-14-2011, 01:47 PM
"It's about ME. If I didn't get some kind of reward out of reading and posting, I wouldn't do it. Neither would you." Gear

Everyone is entitled to their own opinions and can live by their own standards. However, on the above I must take strong exception. Some, perhaps many or most humans are driven by self interest, but not all. Self centerdness is very human and unless a person gives conscious and consistent effort to be other centered, it will prevail. Life is a struggle between what we are and what we can be. I will continue the struggle as long as I have breath. You can choose whatever path suits you.

deltaenterprizes
05-14-2011, 02:20 PM
I think most folks shoot for a number of years before delving into the world of reloading--and then they spend a number of years in reloading before considering the joy of rotting your brain with lead fumes.

:coffee:

I was lucky in that I ran into a gentle man that had been reloading for a while and shortly after he taught me to reload he got into casting and taught me. I later found out that his mentor in reloading and casting was his nephew that had been doing it for years. I was able to benefit from years of experience from the get go. There was also a great group of guys in the gun club that were willing to help a noobie, but I also ran into the "that's good nuff" crowd that as long as it went down the barrel and made a hole in the target it was good nuff!
I learned the best info from the guys that had little tiny groups on the target down range!

Char-Gar
05-14-2011, 02:24 PM
Smoke-um.. I have received a warning or two from the Moderator over the years. But, I pretty well know where the line is and try and stay on "this" side of it.

The Moderator has a number of concerns that I do not. He is concerned about the peace and harmony quotient of this board as well he should. Too many folks just start slinging insults and get personal when the disagree. This kind of stuff can ruin a board.

My main concern is the quality of information on this board. This board has grown many fold since I first started participating on Shooters.com back in the late 90's. The average level of knowledge about firearms, handloading and shooting has declined sharply with the grown. However that does not stand in the way of folks "playing expert" on the Internet.

There are folks on this board who know far more about the technical end of cast bullet shooting that I ever will. For that reason I try and stick with what I know based on my experience. I don't want to be guilty of posting over my head.

I have noticed there are a few folks on this board whom I just rub the wrong way. They feel duty bound to take a personal swipe at me every time they get a chance. They can save their barbs as I am not going away, at least not this week anyway. :-)

Years ago, my Grandfather told me..."Son if you don't want to make waves, don't ever say nothing, don't ever do nothing and don't ever be nothing.".

Bass Ackward
05-14-2011, 03:01 PM
I just love it when expects brag or bad mouth something, or say something is physically and mathematically impossible, only to have another guy come in a have great success with what was just bad mouthed. Or fail with their advise. Whether that is LLA to RPM or velocity limits.

Why? Cause that guy didn't bias himself with opinions or stereotypes and untruths and let his gun and target be the judge.

The only problem on this board is that misery loves company. Others want to collaborate their failure as limits with people that have the same limits / problems. Then they believe that because several others failed just like they did, then their IS a right way.

Their only problem is because they are close minded to try something else.

This board isn't for the guy who can follow the yellow brick road and has success. It's for the guy that does and fails.

If you are a believer that there is only one or a best way or limits for cast; good / bad lubes, a magic or poor bullet styles or design, limits, an ideal hardness level, one sizing strategy or anything else that there is a subject for, then YOU are a stereotype creator and the enemy of cast education / success.

Insanity was defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

There are no limits unless you or your gun make them or you quit. It only makes a difference if it does. And the only opinion that counts is the target.

btroj
05-14-2011, 03:04 PM
I will admit that many here have ruffled my feathers over the years. I let it go much of the time as these are the same people who have opinions I actually value.
I know darn well I have irritated more than a few here. I can be abrupt and snarky at times.

I agree with Chargar that over all firearm knowledge has declined over the last few decades. We live in an era of buy a gun, buy some ammo, and go bang away. This is the group that brought us mall ninjas. Some of these guys do show interest in loading or casting but they don't have mindset to learn the old fashioned way.

I too have a limited knowledge base on some topics. I am certainly not an expert on lube. I also do not shoot for small groups off the bench. These are areas I tend to speak little on other than to say I use lube, I don't develop formulas for it.

Chargar, don't stop being you. We need honest opinions, not just more ****. I want to know what works for YOU, not what you heard about third hand.

Brad

geargnasher
05-14-2011, 03:19 PM
Chargar, please don't make the mistake of confusing "selfishness" with "self interest". Same difference with egotism vs. egoISM. I speak of the latter, and it's the only true and decent reason anyone does anything. You might preach altruism or selflessness, but you wouldn't do it if it didn't ultimately reward you. You might not want to think so, and you might not believe me, but that's the way it is and there isn't anything wrong with that philosophy. Life IS a struggle between what we are and what we can be, and if you don't embrace your own value FIRST, then how will you grow? We'll just agree to disagree on that subject.

I happen to get a lot of enjoyment out of helping other people learn something. But I will not harm myself to to do so. I've shipped lots of odds and ends to folks trying to sort out issues, things like properly expanded pistol brass, sample boolits, etc. Many here have done the same for me, often it's at our own expense and time to pack the items and take them to the PO, but if it helps someone solve a problem that's a reward in itself. That's the sort of thing this community does, and I try to be as generous with commodities as I am with my time and keyboard, but I don't see anyone making sacrifices here, nor to I think there would be anything respectable in doing so. Sometimes I'm short, cranky, etc, but I try to just stick to the point. You want help, I'll do my best. I spent an entire evening once with three Genreral Inorganic Chemistry textbooks so I could explain, in chemical equations, what goes on when we "flux" our melt, and WHY some methods are better than others. I think it was lost on almost everyone who looked at it, but the basic information was there. Glen Fryxell (who has IIRC at least a master's in Chemistry) would understand and probably offer some corrections to the math, but I doubt he would find much wrong with the basics of the reactions. I did that to show the guys who "flux" with kitty litter that they are doing a good thing to prevent oxidation, but not doing anything to reverse oxidation that may have already happed. Those are FACTS. My opinions are always based upon the facts I have and know, and these facts as I understand them are subject to change without notice if I get better information. I don't know everything (many times my groups show it), but if I post some advice, I can certainly back it up, and if someone posts something that's just plain wrong, I'll set the record straight with the evidence to prove it. Many times opinions differ based upon experiences, and what works for one person may not work for another, but some things are constants. Lead melts at 621F at my house, your house and anyone else's. Moulds have to be a certain temperature to function properly, and I can tell you a quick way to find just what that temperature is. Certain alloys are best maintained at a certain temperature, that's based upon experience and results. Other people cast at different temps than I do and get good results, but I find this doesn't work for everybody. Many of the points outlined in cast bullet publications are spot-on, and are aimed at the general caster, kind of a "rule of thumb". I try to pass this on because it often works the best for me, too. Again, many people jump in and give poor advice because they don't understand the problem themselves. That's where I jump in and give the "complicated" answer, in order to promote the general understanding and dispell the sort of myths that make life hell for a new caster. Ultimately, I try to be the guy that I wish I had had standing over my shoulder along the way, offering possible explanations and corrections of failures, improvements, and generally sharing what knowledge he had of the process. I learned more on this forum in the past two years than I did in the previous fifteen put together, and it's thanks to people who put forth the facts, and not uneducated opinions, that helped me the most.

I agree fully with the gist(sp?) of what you say about judging a question for what it is, and giving the appropriate level of advice. If someone posts pics of their boolits and asks for opinions on them, I try to be contructive and critical at the same time, if I think it matters. If it's .45 ACP boolits and there are a few pits and rounded bands, I say shoot them and quit worrying about it unless you have problems and usually make a comment about when and where "perfect" boolits really matter, I shoot ugly boolits all the time at short ranges and it works just fine provided the basic fit is ok and everything else about the load is decently balanced.

In the end I think we're trying to do the same thing, and I hope we are succeding. I think we are, even if we disagree on many things. The casting world needs as much perspective as it can get to be it's best, as does the world in general, and if one thing can be found here, it's the gamut of perspectives.

Gear

cbrick
05-14-2011, 03:37 PM
I read as many posts as I can by those as or more experienced than myself for the sole reason of making me a better, more knowledgeable caster, to further my education of a fascinating hobby. I also read as much as I can from other sources, the metals industry as one example.

To some on this board that is a total waste of time and effort. Learning something new is completely irrelevant.

The new caster posts that I answer is for the express purpose of helping a newbie get started in the right direction, a direction that will help them become better casters more quickly. Why? Because I love casting and it is important to me help others get started and receive the same enjoyment from it that I do. It is help that I didn't have getting started 30 or more years ago and I enjoy helping them avoid many of problems I faced.

To some on this board that makes me a snob. To them there is but one reason, one purpose only, to show off how much I know. No other reason is even a possibility to them.

How quickly some are to show off how little they really understand about people, how tightly squeezed shut they have their eyes. How proud they are of both counts.

Those types of people should never judge others by looking in the mirror.

Rick

Smoke-um if you got-um
05-14-2011, 03:41 PM
I too have a limited knowledge base on some topics....... Chargar, don't stop being you. We need honest opinions, not just more ****. I want to know what works for YOU, not what you heard about third hand.

Brad

I could not agree more. Limited knowledge or complete lack of knowledge on some, or many, topics does not indicate that a person is "uneducated" as a former post seemingly suggests. This is exactly the kind of thread that provides someone with the opportunity to reevaluate themselves and perhaps be better for it. Some will and some will not. If only one person adjusts their attitude for the better then the thread has been worthwhile. Almost forgot,I did not name the person in the former post due to any "passive,aggressive, or lack of courage nonsense. It was simply for others to see it for themselves by finding it and form their own opinion as to the context of the statement. Opinions will vary, as they should.

Mike

Char-Gar
05-14-2011, 03:42 PM
Gear

What was that again... Oh yes... "A distinction without a difference". I certainly don't want to embrace myself. I do need to accept myself for what I am and then move on throwing some things overboard. Perhaps that is another distinction without a difference.

While we may agree on many things about cast bullets, I doubt if we will agree on the nature of humankind. I am a committed orthodox Christian and my views of such matters are determined by my faith. Psychology is interesting and I have spent lots of time in the study of the same, but in my world Scripture trumps psychology.

I don't know what your spiritual views are, but you response indicates to me that they are not the same as mine. I am not trying to cause a ruckus, just trying to be direct and clear. Just saying...

runfiverun
05-14-2011, 11:35 PM
gear:
i recall when you read those books.
i also remember it helping me.
the math not so much, but the full explanation cleared up the oxygen free zone.
and how it helped with the oxides.
iv'e probably misexplained it a few times but got the point across because i knew what it was doing.
thanks.

noylj
05-15-2011, 02:57 AM
Sizing my cast bullets is job none. As-cast works for me in 9x19, .38 Super, .40S&W, .45 Auto, .44 Rem Mag, and .45 LC. A simple tumble lube in LLA has worked for me for a decade or more.
Finding lead is becoming job one!

William Yanda
02-12-2012, 07:18 PM
Oh well, that is what I get for trying to be subtle. I have never done subtle well. I see many folks on this board worrying about things that are really non issues and making bullet casting and shooting far more complex than it is. Newbie read this stuff an get lost and frustrated with the artificial complexity of this stuff. Char gar


+1 or what he said

beagle
02-12-2012, 07:45 PM
Corky, I'll bet you were big on "peeing on the fence" in your early days./beagle


Yessir, just about everything I know, I've learned the hard way....

williamwaco
02-12-2012, 08:42 PM
Oh well, that is what I get for trying to be subtle. I have never done subtle well. I see many folks on this board worrying about things that are really non issues and making bullet casting and shooting far more complex than it is. Newbie read this stuff an get lost and frustrated with the artificial complexity of this stuff.




+ONE.

I am with Char here. Many of the questions are about things they heard about might have happened to their friends, father's, girlfriends, third cousins, school teachers, ex husband read in an old magazine instead of:

"I am having this problem, how do I fix it."

Casting and shooting cast bullets is not rocket science.
Really good shooters were doing it 150 years ago with a mold, a spoon, and a campfire.

I was doing it 50 years ago when I didn't even know the content of wheel weights, had never heard the acronym BNH and used scrap candles as my thermometer. And - I had much better equipment than the average reloader at the time. I had a CH C frame press and Pacific Dies. Many I knew were still using the Lyman Tong tools

Some people today want to come in sounding like Stephen Hawking when they haven't even learned 2+2. Some of them are asking about metallurgy when they haven't even bought their press and dies yet.

Load some and shoot some.

Have some fun.

We ( most of us ) do this for enjoyment, not for torture ( Although some times it turns out that way. )

Find a real problem and then worry about fixing it.

( I don't do subtle well either.)





.

armexman
02-12-2012, 09:15 PM
I have been at this "forum" since Shooters. And I know EVERYTHING about casting!Anyone need help?

The only reason I know everything is I had the humility to learn from all, including some that have left.
I see new people in here asking questions; some are here for rapid information (don't bother me with the details, please)
Others come here and look in (lurk), and realize that they are at the cuspid of a site that has knowledge beyond belief. Those I believe are the future of what is not a dying artform. To those types of persons ,I pray for, as here they will one day reach the level I am at now.
Again, Anybody want my help? not many takers as I have not the patience of some saints that inhabit this forum.
My point. Let all those whom are new to this site, ask there questions and gently point them to the search function; they to will in 5-10 years know everything too.

noylj
02-13-2012, 03:42 AM
I know I am old and cantankerous, but I agree: too many newbies are trying to solve all problems, real and imagined, before they ever start to reload.
I always recommend to start simple and worry about real problems if they ever come up.
I can load perfectly acceptable ammunition, for pistol and rifle, using the little Lee Reloading Press and frequently suggest that a newbie start out with one and learn before investing what, to me, is REAL money.
The little press is not the best--it takes more effort to size--but the ammunition is just as good.
Then, there are all the posts for new and better ways to clean brass, when a wipe of the exterior will do everything needed.
Start simply and LEARN. You will learn what is important to you and you can make your own decisions and not worry about "peer pressure" from the blue, red, or green folks.

stubshaft
02-13-2012, 03:53 AM
[QUOTE=noylj;1587968]I know I am old and cantankerous, but I agree: too many newbies are trying to solve all problems, real and imagined, before they ever start to reload.[/QUOTE


EGGSAKTLY:shock:

cbrick
02-13-2012, 08:25 AM
I know I am old and cantankerous, but I agree: too many newbies are trying to solve all problems, real and imagined, before they ever start to reload.

Well, it's settled then.

ALL posts on this board are strickly for newbies.

NO one with any experience may read these posts because you might learn something new or different or possibly even better.

ALL advice posted will now be to buy LEE and go with as little equipment as cheaply as possible, your good to go.

If it melts it will make great bullets, just do it and stop worring about what it is and why it leads and is inaccurate. Just shoot it, your good to go.

Fluxing is a waste of time, simply apply heat, pour and go shoot. Quit trying to make it hard, your good to go.

No need to worry about sizing, just shoot it, your good to go.

Don't worry about leading, just shoot it, your good to go.

Geez, now there is no need for any one else to post anything cause I just posted all any newbie will ever need to know.

Ah . . . Life is good. And so simple.

Rick

ku4hx
02-13-2012, 09:22 AM
Somewhat similar to "Solutions looking for a problem" sort of thing.

Too many people look at every event as a failure necessitating a run to get somebody else to tell them "the answer". As a former teacher I always found it was far better to give the questioner the tools and let them learn for themselves. Many "problems" are simply normal occurrences along the learning curve and some learning curves are steep and some seem level.

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he'll feed himself for a lifetime.

But I swear, it seems that reading a subject's classic literature is no longer relevant. When I started casting, I was the only expert I knew and I needed help. So I read Lyman's Cast Bullet manual ... every word of it, made all sorts of notes and did my best not to hurt myself.

Not just here, but on every forum I'm a member of or simply frequent for that matter, way too many questions are so basic and so well covered in the literature I just shake my head. And if you say "look it up" (as I used to say as a teacher) you're often accused of being old fashioned, not a team player, argumentative and etc. Well, so be it.

badgeredd
02-13-2012, 11:14 AM
Somewhat similar to "Solutions looking for a problem" sort of thing.

Too many people look at every event as a failure necessitating a run to get somebody else to tell them "the answer". As a former teacher I always found it was far better to give the questioner the tools and let them learn for themselves. Many "problems" are simply normal occurrences along the learning curve and some learning curves are steep and some seem level.

Give a man a fish and he'll eat for a day. Teach him how to fish and he'll feed himself for a lifetime.

But I swear, it seems that reading a subject's classic literature is no longer relevant. When I started casting, I was the only expert I knew and I needed help. So I read Lyman's Cast Bullet manual ... every word of it, made all sorts of notes and did my best not to hurt myself.

Not just here, but on every forum I'm a member of or simply frequent for that matter, way too many questions are so basic and so well covered in the literature I just shake my head. And if you say "look it up" (as I used to say as a teacher) you're often accused of being old fashioned, not a team player, argumentative and etc. Well, so be it.

Kinda my take on several items.

I subscribe to the KISS method for a newbie and try to remember that I was once in his shoes...over whelmed with the abundance of information. I often just shake my head to myself and move on because the question has been answered SO many times and it is obvious the questioner has NOT made any attempt to find an answer or to try to solve their own problem.

I also shake my head and just move on when a few (and I mean few) self proclaimed experts give their opinions as facts. I've learned so much on this board from so many. Some because they were right, some because they weren't. Often opinions are the same as facts but occasionally they are not the same critter.

The day I learn nothing by coming to this forum has yet to come. If it ever does, I'd be surprised. AND if it ever does, I believe I will be a smaller person.

Edd

Recluse
02-13-2012, 02:04 PM
Some people today want to come in sounding like Stephen Hawking when they haven't even learned 2+2.

( I don't do subtle well either.)


Yep. I've seen new members come in who are NEW casters themselves, and after a few months of semi-successful casting, they become the new forum experts--injecting their opinions everywhere and on everything.

Used to see it on the reloading forums all the time--brand new reloader gets his Rock Chucker kit or Lee Challenger kit, loads up several hundred rounds of .40 S&W or .223 (or name your caliber), manages to keep them all on the paper, then *voila* he becomes the prolific poster the reloading forum has seen in weeks, if not months.

I generally try to post on MY experiences, which are not always the right way to do things, even though sometimes they worked (even a blind squirrel can find a nut). Doesn't matter how long I've been handloading or casting or shooting, I'm an absolute babe in the woods here.

And I like it that way.

:coffee:

williamwaco
02-13-2012, 08:37 PM
Yep. I've seen new members come in who are NEW casters themselves, and after a few months of semi-successful casting, they become the new forum experts--injecting their opinions everywhere and on everything.

Used to see it on the reloading forums all the time--brand new reloader gets his Rock Chucker kit or Lee Challenger kit, loads up several hundred rounds of .40 S&W or .223 (or name your caliber), manages to keep them all on the paper, then *voila* he becomes the prolific poster the reloading forum has seen in weeks, if not months.

I generally try to post on MY experiences, which are not always the right way to do things, even though sometimes they worked (even a blind squirrel can find a nut). Doesn't matter how long I've been handloading or casting or shooting, I'm an absolute babe in the woods here.

And I like it that way.

:coffee:


Sounds like You-Tube.

There are some really good videos on there but I have seen videos on casting that are positively dangerous made by people who clearly had cast less than 100 bullets in their life.


.

williamwaco
02-13-2012, 09:03 PM
I just love it when expects brag or bad mouth something, or say something is physically and mathematically impossible, only to have another guy come in a have great success with what was just bad mouthed. Or fail with their advise. Whether that is LLA to RPM or velocity limits.

Why? Cause that guy didn't bias himself with opinions or stereotypes and untruths and let his gun and target be the judge.

The only problem on this board is that misery loves company. Others want to collaborate their failure as limits with people that have the same limits / problems. Then they believe that because several others failed just like they did, then their IS a right way.

Their only problem is because they are close minded to try something else.

This board isn't for the guy who can follow the yellow brick road and has success. It's for the guy that does and fails.

If you are a believer that there is only one or a best way or limits for cast; good / bad lubes, a magic or poor bullet styles or design, limits, an ideal hardness level, one sizing strategy or anything else that there is a subject for, then YOU are a stereotype creator and the enemy of cast education / success.

Insanity was defined as doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

There are no limits unless you or your gun make them or you quit. It only makes a difference if it does. And the only opinion that counts is the target.


Bass, Are you my long lost twin?

Have you noticed that most of the stuff that you absolutely can't do, abaolutely will not work, is the same stuff that magazine writers have been copying and pasting since the 1950's without even trying it.

Most of these boards are peopled with members who have read a lot of boiler plate but shot very little.

By some lucky circumstance this board has a large percentage of users who have read a lot, didn't believe it, then shot a lot and disproved most of it. If they couldn't disprove it they found a way around it.

I have reached the point that almost every new experiment I undertake is designed specifically to disprove something that "every one knows to be true".

"They" are almost always wrong. Fortunately they are right often enough to make it an interesting persuit.


Cheers.

white eagle
02-13-2012, 09:11 PM
Oh well, that is what I get for trying to be subtle. I have never done subtle well. I see many folks on this board worrying about things that are really non issues and making bullet casting and shooting far more complex than it is. Newbie read this stuff an get lost and frustrated with the artificial complexity of this stuff.

keyboard animosity
:holysheep

Cadillo
02-14-2012, 03:41 PM
Some people's lives lack adversity sufficient to keep them properly focused with regard to priorities, and how to spend their too plentiful idle time.

As my Grandfather used to say:

"An idle mind is the Devil's workshop."

For those of you who come here to discuss even complex issues regarding casting, sizing, etc., many thanks! You have greatly shortened my learning curve in this endeavor. While I don't use every technique I read here, I often use them as a starting point to see what does and does not work for me; something which has saved me a lot of time and grief over time. For that reason I log onto this website nearly every day and certainly every time I get on the net.

As someone else once said:

"As soon as you stop growing, you begin to rot."

jandbn
02-14-2012, 08:52 PM
If some one is seriously interested in learning the many varied aspects of this hobby (obsession in my case according to the better half) like I was and still am, time needs to be spent learning before doing. To me that amounts to reading and researching. If after exhausting available resouces and not finding an answer, then ask the questions.

I spent over two years (including lurking) reading almost every day here before attempting to pour my own last October. After my grade school education here, I was prepared to pour my own when I did. From clip on wheel weights to boolits, the whole process went without a hitch due to CB. I had never given thought about boolits prior to finding CB. Now after pouring my own, I have to learn the many finer details of this hobby so I keep reading.

From what a person can learn here just by reading, I believe the quality and quantity learned easily surpasses a 4-year college level education. Even though I might be able to learn a college level education here, I don't believe for a minute that I could ever learn it all. That being said, I will continue to read and learn. And when I can't find an answer, I will ask because members here are more than willing to help.

Lizard333
02-14-2012, 09:00 PM
I have to admit, I have been guilty of some of the accused posters, that have worrie much about nothing. Before I started casting, I spent several months reading, reading and reading some more. Once I actually started casting, despite the research and knowledge I thought I knew, I still had a LOT of questions. I really appreacited the help I recieved, and still do, from this forum. If I can help a NOOB, I will, if for no more reason than to repay the help that was given to me. The knowledge was freely given, so why not return the favor.

I have come to respect a lot of the guys on this forum, because they take the time to help. Without helping and answering the seemingly meaningless questions, this forum would suck. Because so many help us out, this forum gets so many members and so many hits.

Bottom line, keep helping, and try to keep the misinformation to a minimum, by speaking up, politically correct, or not.