Leading

[Bushrat]

I have been reading this fourm for several years and have tried everything but both of my 45s lead. I use wheel weights, canuba red, 4.1 grains of Clays with 200 swc and 3.9 grains with 230 round nose. I have 3 barrels and they all lead in the first inch of the barrel and they lead very badly with as little as 20 rounds. All of the barrels mic at .452. I have hogged out my sizer to .3535 in with no improvement, crimp is now set at .471, toobig for good preformance in my Heine tight chambered barrel, but feed and functions well in the Colt and Sringfield barrels What am I missing?

[waksupi]

Leading in the first inch, would tell me your bullet is either undersized, or too hard.

[Bushrat]

I made a mistake in the orginl post the bullets are now sized to .4535 not .3535 sorry about that.

[captaint]

Bushrat - What are you measuring your barrel groove dimensions (from a slug, I hope) with?? The wheelweights - are they clip on or stickies?? Are they air cooled or water dropped?? Sounds like you got a little large with lapping out the sizing die. It should have been good at about a thou smaller, but I doubt that's causing the lead. Were your barrels really clean and copper free when you began this project?? And finally whose molds are you making your boolits from (if you're not buying them) ?? Be patient, this can be straightened out, changing one thing at a time. enjoy Mike

[Bushrat]

I started many times with very clean barrels, I honed the sizer die out a little at a time as I tested. The bullets are cast from an NEI mould and a a Lee six holer The wheel weights are clip on, and the bullets are air cooled. As stated the barrels slug at .452 and all three lead the same.

[Moonie]

You mentioned your crimp. What are you using to crimp, FCD? Have you pulled a loaded boolit and mic'd it to make sure it isn't getting sized down by your crimp die?

[RobS]

Load up a dummy round and pull it so you can measure the very edge of the base of the boolit. If it is small then load up another dummy round but don't crimp it so you can find out if it is happening during the seating stage or if the swage down is caused during crimping .

Also how long are you waiting after casting to load the boolits?

[MtGun44]

I'm in agreement with Rob -

Try a few without a crimp - loaded by hand into the chamber to avoid any chance of
pushing the boolit into the case. See if this eliminates leading.

Another thing is to seat a boolit but not crimp then pull it and measure the actual diameter
after seating.

Bill

[Bushrat]

I will pull some bullets and try some without crimp. I am not sure what to do if it shoots well without a crimp as it is kind or hard to get a 45 auto to feed without one. I have used Lee Factory crimp and it fed my Heine barrel much better and the leading was the same as my taper crimp. I seat and crimp in seperate steps, and have been loading the 45 for many years with several moulds and have slways fought leading.

Any help is welcome

[geargnasher]

Actually, .45 Autos feed flawlessly without a crimp, provided the boolits are the right size. You only need enough "crimp" on magazine-fed automatic pistol cartridges to iron out the flare of the case mouth. Set your crimp die to make them straight, and verify with a micrometer or good calipers that the mouth OD is the same dimension as the case OD 1/16" back from the mouth. If you're shooting really oversized boolits chambering can be a problem.

When you say "Mic", do you mean a bona fide, name-brand 0-1" micrometer, or a $20 set of Harbor Freight digital calipers? I have a stable full of .45 ACPs of all flavors and the only one with a barrel that doesn't slug .451" is a Kimber that has gobbled up ohmygod boxes of J-words in competition and has almost no rifling left, and a reverse-taper that makes it really unsuitable for cast. I find it possible, but unlikely that any of your groove diameters are really .452", so you may in fact be oversizing the boolits.

About that oversizing, are you measuring the boolits? A .4535" sizer won't make a .452" boolit .4535" unless it's a base-first sizer and you "bump" it pretty hard at the bottom.

Pull a seated boolit as has been suggested and measure it with the same too you used to measure your barrel slugs. In fact, if you still have them, compare a pulled boolit directly to your slugs to eliminate a calibration issue.

Gear

[Bushrat]

I use a real micometer, I have seen to many bullits set back to load and auto without any crimp. I know you can't bump up a bullet without a lot or presssure, but my moulds cast almost .454 so that isn't a problem. I will reslyg may barrels, and pull some bullets, just to make sure.

Still looking

[fredj338]

Pull a bullet after seating & crimon & measur eit. I agree, the LFCD is a no go for me & lead or plated bullets @ 0.452" or larger. The distortion of the bullet causes a loss i accuracy. You might just try switching powders or try bumoing your charge wt up a 0.1gr or 0.2gr. SOmetimes the uberfast powders will allow gas blow & you get early leading at low prssures. You could also try a softer alloy. I shoot a 50/50 lead/clip ww for most of my 45acp stuff, leading is pretty much a none issue. My powder fo choice in the 45acp for all bullet wts is WST.

[geargnasher]

I use a real micometer, I have seen to many bullits set back to load and auto without any crimp. I know you can't bump up a bullet without a lot or presssure, but my moulds cast almost .454 so that isn't a problem. I will reslyg may barrels, and pull some bullets, just to make sure.

Still looking

Good to know. I'm going through a process of elimination here since you didn't give us all the info originally. You'd be surprised how many people think they can measure boolits with a plastic caliper.

If you have sufficient neck tension and a firm enough alloy, you will never see setback in a .45 auto without any crimp at all. If you need to crimp to keep the boolits in place, you're doing something very, very wrong. The crimping you're doing could be the whole problem.

Like Ric said, either your boolits are too small when they enter the bore, or they are too hard for the pressures to which you're loading.

Gear

[noylj]

No body ever agrees with me, but I would take 10 as-cast bullets and tumble lube them with LLA and see what happens. I have found that LLA really cuts down on leading of undersized bullets, wither by itself or as an adjunct to an already lubed bullet.
Your problem, as stated above, is caused by the bullets being too small in diameter or the alloy being too hard.
When you slug your barrel, you have to use a slug of lead that is larger than your barrel's groove diameter. I take a lead bullet and squeeze it in a vice to get a diameter of 0.46+. This ensures that I am actually slugging down to the groove diameter.
Most .45 Autos are quite content with 10 Brinell alloys. My 1911s are all quite happy shooting 0.454" bullets.
As so many have said, pull a couple of rounds apart and determine what the as-loaded bullet diameter is.

[MtGun44]

Beware the PISTOL version of the Lee FCD. Note that this is totally different than the
RIFLE version of the Lee FCD, same name but totally different concepts.

Bill

[Bushrat]

I pulled some bullets today and they all mic between 452 and 453 they were from batches that were sized different. I re slugged my barrels and used a micormeter and they were 4515 a451 for the Heine. I will up the charge as I am running out of things to try. I had the same problem with 231 but will try some Unique. I don't have access to soft lead but will try to round some up.

Thanks all

[BulletFactory]

How hard is it?

[Bushrat]

I don't have hardness tester but it is wheel weights and aged a few months. I have been loading cast bullits for about 45 years and can't seem to solve this one.

[MtGun44]

I'd try Titegroup, W231, BE or Unique. Clays is very clean burning but it is too fast for the
.45 ACP for full power loads. Hodgdon data shows that you cannot reach full normal
velocity with 230 gr loads before you overpressure, too fast for that combo. Titegroup,
Bullseye and W231 are just about optimum burning rate for .45 ACP. Unique is a touch
too slow, you will get large velocity deviations with low crimp tension and 200 gr
boolits, but it clears up with 225 and a very tight crimp. This shows that Unique is on the
edge of too slow for light boolits in .45 ACP. Interestingly, even when you are getting
125 fps extreme spread on 10 shot strings over the chrono, the accy is still excellent.
Go figure.

How about just a rough barrel? Maybe a quick run of 5-10 rounds of very fine (~400 )
grit fire lapping may help. I have numerous 1911s and shoot .452 commercial and my own
castings to the tune of many thousands of rounds per year. Leading is barely perceptible
at 3000 rds or so with the commercial - a few streaks in the first half, but never increases,
scrubs out very quickly, like 20 passes with a bronze brush. With my boolits, zero leading.

I am thinking maybe it is just a rougher than normal barrel. But the Clays powder seems like
it may have some relevance.

Bill

[Three44s]

Seriously,

I'd get a bottle of Liquid alox and just tumble lube your sized lubed slugs over the top of your red lube.

My preference here would be to thin the LLA with mineral spirits and make a thin coating ........ with my LLA only slugs I run the thin mix twice and load as cast.

I'd really go easy on that crimping as well.

Three 44s

[XWrench3]

i had a heck of a time getting my taurus 24/7 to quit leadding using the lee six cavity 230g rn mold, i tried a lot of things, the two things that helped the most (i now get zero leading) was NO CRIMP, and (believe it or not) using Kendall Super Blu automotive grease for lubricant. when i use the super blu, the bore after 200 rounds looks as clean as when i started. the rest of the gun does not, but the bore does.

[Bushrat]

How do you apply the automotive lube? Can I run it through my Star?

[MtGun44]

One of the BIG name custom revolver gunsmiths has been quoted as answering to the
question of "Which boolit lube is best?" --- something like "Use whatever you want as long
as it is soft and gooey." I tend to come down on this end of the spectrum, even though I
do see some success with some of the hard lubes. Automotive grease maybe a bit soft
for much handling, but probably lubes really well.

Bill

[Cadillo]

I have no reference for loading data with that powder, but I can tell you about my leading experience. When I first starting casting, all my guns leaded badly when shooting my new bullets. I tried various sizing die sizes, lubes, and alloys. The cure was quite simple. I was loading the bullets with too light a powder charge. Once I got up to 5.0 grains of 231 with my 200 grain bullets, the leading disappeared as if by magic.

Check your loading data. If it is in the bottom end of the range indicated in you manuals, try bumping it up a bit, and see what results you get.

Stay within exceptable limits as per your manual!

[Bushrat]

I headed to the range yesterday to shoot an Action Pistol Match and grabbed a coffee can of ammo I loaded just before heading south for the winter. The load was 4.1 clays behind a lee 200 grain SWC sized at .453 oal 1.25. The load shot great and only a tiny bit of leading, now can I do it again. Tried to duplicate it today and will test it soon.

Thanks all

[Pirate69]

"I have hogged out my sizer to .3535 in with no improvement, crimp is now set at .471."

I checked the dimensions of the 45ACP. It appears that it tapers from the base (0.476") to the case mouth (0.473"). Is it possible you are swaging the boolits 0.002" with the crimp? With the 0.471" crimp and a combined thickness of 0.021" thickness for the brass (my estimate on measuring), the boolit must be 0.450" at that measuring point. Just my thoughts.

[gray wolf]

I think the OP stated that he has the same problem with different pistols,
So I don't think it is a scratchy barrel problem. Don't get all hung up on lubes and chase that Rabbit down a bunch of holes. The 45 is a simple low pressure platform to load for,
also don't get caught up in the crimp spin, over crimp or for that matter any crimp on a 45 does nothing to hold a bullet and prevent set back. It held in with the friction that is created by using the correct size expander ball on the end of the die that flares the case. Just remove the flare and check to see the rounds enter the barrel and fall out under there own weight.
Over crimp will squeeze the lead, the brass springs back and the lead does not
( bullet gets smaller. Air cooled WW should be fine for your bullets, or just get a little roofing sheet lead and cut the WW 30,40, or 50%. Bulls Eye powder 4 grains or tite group 4.3 grains is a nice 200 grain load. The 4 of B/E is also great for the 230 grain bullets.
Again leading in the first part of the barrel on different pistols negates a bad barrel,
come on--they can't all be bad. I have not found many as in very, very few 1911's that wont shoot a .452 .453 lead bullet. I use a simple lube of 1 pound Mycrocrystaline wax and 1 table spoon of Jojoba oil .453 lead bullet with very as in almost no crimp, you can't see it.
.472 at the case mouth. Using the K.I.S.S. process the 45 is a hard cartridge to screw up
So I am betting it is a simple little fix you have not hit on yet. Stay with the help here and I think we can fix it.
Now I do one of my step out on a limb things
You talk about set back in a way that it could be a concern of yours ?
If I were of the mindset that I was worried about set back I could easily over crimp, how could you not ? If your head says set back, what other thing would you do to prevent it ? I could see it happening. Crimp that sucker good and the mind says --there take that--try and set back now.

[Bushrat]

I pulled a number of bullets from different batchs of loaded ammo I had on hand and none were under .452 I have been crimping at .471 for some time and still get leading. I did load some today at .4725 but not sure they will work in my Heine barrel when it get a little dirty. I hope to get to the range again soon and repeat the results from my lead free day last week.

[noylj]

Let's get back to basics:
If the leading is at the beginning of the barrel, the bullets are either too small (don't care what the barrel mics at, they are too small) or they are too hard (or both).
What is the as-cast size of the bullets and has the OP tried 20 as-cast and LLA tumble-lubed bullets yet?
With a properly sized/over-sized bullet, you don't need hardly any lube for .45 Auto.
Re: slugging the barrel
The slug must be larger in OD then the larget possible dimension of the barrel. This means that the slug should be about 0.460". You are not going to squeeze the slug up to a larger OD, so you have to start at the top. Look at the slug and see if the groove-image (the OD of the slug) looks like it have been squeezed down. If it measure the same as the slug going in, you need a bigger slug.

[Pirate69]

Not trying to argue here. But if you measure the brass thickness, you should find it around 0.011". The thickness of both sides would be 0.022". If the round diameter is 0.471" at the crimp; how can the bullet diameter not be 0.450 or less at the point of the crimp?

[geargnasher]

Not trying to argue here. But if you measure the brass thickness, you should find it around 0.011". The thickness of both sides would be 0.022". If the round diameter is 0.471" at the crimp; how can the bullet diameter not be 0.450 or less at the point of the crimp?

Often brass diameter is even thinner in .45 ACP, I've seen quite a few in the .010" range. You make an excellent point. I'm not sure, though, whether that was the crimped mouth dimension or the loaded "neck" dimension.

Gear

[williamwaco]

No body ever agrees with me, but I would take 10 as-cast bullets and tumble lube them with LLA and see what happens. I have found that LLA really cuts down on leading of undersized bullets, wither by itself or as an adjunct to an already lubed bullet.
.

You have two recommendations here to try an Alox lube. Listen to these guys. They know what they are talking about.

If your bullets are already lubed, re-lube them with the LLA tumble method. You do not need to remove the existing lube.

I have had ZERO luck with these modern hard lube brands. All of them I have tried both Red and Blue alike do virtually nothing to reduce leading. I occasionally buy commercial bullets lubed with these lubes. They all lead like crazy. If I tumble them with LLA ( In a zip loc bag) the leading magically disappears.

To be sure, I have NOT tried them all. I have tried four or five of them, enough to know that i will not be trying any more of them.

"If it ain't Alox, it ain't bullet lube."

[geargnasher]

Just my dos centavos, but if you have to go through all that to get a .45 ACP to not lead, sumphin' stinks.

Liquid Alox by itself will usuall do the trick if everything else is even close.

Gear

[Bushrat]

I tried alox with as casted bullets both in 230 and 200 grain, the leading was the same. I have read many posts here over the years and not everyone is excited about alox, but many are. I you read my above post you wil see I finally achived a lead free barrel with conventional lube. I am however trying to do it again, and am looking for a better way. I will try alox again, but giving up my star luber will be a hard thing to do.

I am thankfull for all the help I received here.

[prs]

How many times, after a good hard rain, do you find traditional lubed boolits at the foot of the berm with that hard lube still right there in the groove? It did a heck of a lot of good, didn't it?

I have seen such boolits with that hard lube where you can see evidence of gas jetting right past the lube and the lube in that area survived it better than the boolit base. Hard lube is good for shipping and warehousing. Softer types are good for shooting.

prs

[williamwaco]

[QUOTE=Bushrat;1273251
-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

I will try alox again, but giving up my star luber will be a hard thing to do.

-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[/QUOTE]

Yikes! Bushrat. No one would ever ask you to give up your Star machine. ( Unless you want to send it to me for "proper disposal")

You can get multiple versions of Alox/Beeswax lubes for the Star. - and it is available from many sources, not just Lee.

If you have a Star machine of any kind, by all means treasure it.

For a test, you can take the bullets you have already sized on your Star and tumble or dip them in liquid Alox Or spray them from a spray bottle. ( I don't recommend the spray method)

I bought 500 9mm 147 gr truncated cone bullets from a major vendor about a year ago. The were hard cast and lubricated with a highly touted lube.

I promptly loaded 200 of them and went to the range. One magazine of them totally coated the first two inches of my bore with lead. Turned my 9mm from a 2" gun at 25 yards to a 6" gun at 15 yards. ( off the paper at 25. )

I mixed some LLA with naptha 50/50. I wanted it really thin. I poured it into a small dish just deep enough that when I dipped the cartridges in it bullet first. It covered the entire nose of the bullet but did not get on the case.

I took those back to the range the next week and they were grouping at 2" again with zero lead.

I then tumbled the remaining 300 of these bullets and they shot beautifully with no leading.

[Bushrat]

Most of my bullets tested were lubed with canuba red, some later one with white label 50/50 neither one is what I would consider hard. Old soft googy lube is in my opinion a mess I can do without. I may run alox over the 2000 cast and sized bullets I have on hand. I will be on the range all day on Friday, more testing and relult will follow.

[noylj]

Leading in the first few inches of the barrel points to a bullet that is too small or an alloy that is too hard. Since these were commercial cast bullets, you could be suffering from both problems.
I have found that many bullets that the maker swears were sized 0.401 are actually 0.0400-0.4005, and my barrel runs 0.4005. I don't see why they can't size them 0.402 to "ensure" that they will fit a 0.400-0.4005 barrel. My own cast bullets come out at 0.402-0.4025 and the shoot very well as-cast and tumble lubed.
I also found that any leading with commercial bullets was always solved with one or two thin applications of LLA -- especially the "too" small ones.

[Char-Gar]

Questions like yours (OP) about persistence and incurable leading occur often on this board, with all kinds of responses.

IMHO the solution begins with an understanding of the term "leading". Way to many folks think there will never be any trace of lead left by the bullet in the barrel. I am talking handguns here. This can be true if gas checks are used, but 95% of the time there will be a lead wash in the barrel with plain based cast bullets.

The issue is not whether or not there is trace lead in the barrel, but how much. If you can fire 100 rounds and accuracy hold up, you don't have "leading". If, you can use a good fitting bronze bore brush with solvent and remove the lead with a dozen or twenty back and forth strokes, then you don't have "leading".

Allot of this stuff has to do with expectations not being meet. Are the expectations reasonable or misguided. This is the first question to answer. All to often we jump to solve a mechanical issue, when it is a human issue.

If after reading the above, you still have "leading", then and only then do you have an issue to deal with.

[bruce381]

my 2 cents i have shot 200 gr SWC acww for years with 231 5.5 gr no lead (in 2 or 3 1911's) went to AA #2 at think 5.0 gr and lead like a sewer pipe went back to 231 all gone. So i guess pressure or pressure spike makes a bigh deal. bye the way guns loadss brass etc all the same in above other than powder and charge. I will try a higher load of AA#2 one day see if the leading comes back but for now the powder change made the dif.

[geargnasher]

my 2 cents i have shot 200 gr SWC acww for years with 231 5.5 gr no lead (in 2 or 3 1911's) went to AA #2 at think 5.0 gr and lead like a sewer pipe went back to 231 all gone. So i guess pressure or pressure spike makes a bigh deal. bye the way guns loadss brass etc all the same in above other than powder and charge. I will try a higher load of AA#2 one day see if the leading comes back but for now the powder change made the dif.

You have to balance the alloy hardness and malleability with the powder burn rate and charge weight. Also lube needs to be in the ballpark with viscosity for the application as well. And select the right primers.

Gear

[BD]

I'm going with my usual minority opinion here once again.

Have you taken a look at the throat? I've seen quite a few 1911 barrels lead in the first inch from folks sizing SWCs to .452 and shooting them in a new .451 barrel with no throat. Think about it for a minute. If you jam a .452 object with a square leading edge through a .451 hole with a square leading edge you are gonna shave some lead from the boolit every time. The easy way to check this is to clean your barrel well, then fire one round only. Then pull the barrel and take a close look at it. Maybe run one dry tight patch through. If you see lead shavings in the beginning of the barrel you'll get a clue. The cure for this is a throating reamer, or 2,000 rounds of jacketed ball, or using a TC or ogival boolit sized to the proper diameter and seated so it can alighn with the throat when chambered, (also much more accurate).

The first Kimbers after the move to NY were known for not having much, if any, throat. Sizing to .451 cured the leading in at least a dozen of them that I know of.

There is no logical reason why anyone's 1911 "needs" a boolit with a diameter larger than the throat. These are not revolvers, the throat is integral to the barrel as it is in a rifle. You need to fill the throat, and no more. A lot of guys use oversize boolits and then seat them deeper so the cartridges will chamber. The result is a boolit that's not even in the throat when fired.

As far as crimp goes, if you push a loaded round against the edge of the table with your thumb and the boolit seats deeper in the case even a little bit, you need more of something. I've probably seen bullet setback jams during matches 50 times. I'd guess I've seen the mag blown out the bottom of a 1911 by set back rounds being fired 6 or 7 times. IMHO the .45 acp should be crimped such that the leading edge of the case is just slightly pressed into the side of the boolit without any real effect on the diameter of the round behind that. I have a Lee FCD die that's been in my Pro-Jector going on 100,000 rounds that does this just fine. Unfortunately the size of that pesky carbide ring in the Lee die has not been consistent over time, and an out of spec die can get you in trouble, or if your gun needs boolits over .451 even an in spec die can get you in trouble. Any taper crimp die will work as well if used in a separate station.

I'll get off my soap box now.

BD

[C.F.Plinker]

The amount of crimp to be used with the 45ACP has varied all over the place. Presently a crimp between .468 and .471 is popular with many bullseye shooters using cast boolits. This straightens out the bell and may give a little inward crimp. Now if you step back in history a little (OK, quite a bit for the younger set) John Giles who was a noted gunsmith back in the 60s and 70s ran some tests with the H&G 68 and the H&G 130 and recommended going down as far as .463. The August 1961 issue of the American Rifleman had an article by Alton Dinan Jr. (reprinted in the NRA Cast Bullets Book) where he tested both roll and taper crimps where the mouth diameter was reduced to .460 for both types of crimp. With one mold the .460 taper crimp gave the best accuracy and with another mold and different alloy the taper crimp accuracy was .25 inches larger than the roll crimp. Both molds were H&G 130. In both cases the group fired with the uncrimped cases was at least .75 inches larger than the taper crimp group. Since he did not compare light and heavy taper crimps it would be interesting to see if there are any tests done that way before writing off the use of a heavy taper crimp.

I have a crimp die set up for a .463 crimp. I took a H&G 130 boolit that was sized to .4525, and seated and crimped it. I then pulled the boolit and made some measurements. The diameter ahead of the crimp was .4525 as expected. The diameter at the front of the crimp had gone down to .444 and tapered to .446 at the leading edge of the lube groove. The diameter at the base of the boolit was .4525 so there had not been any sizing due to the seating operation. The brass was once fired WCC 75 MATCH brass.

[Armorer]

IMHO the solution begins with an understanding of the term "leading". Way to many folks think there will never be any trace of lead left by the bullet in the barrel. I am talking handguns here. This can be true if gas checks are used, but 95% of the time there will be a lead wash in the barrel with plain based cast bullets.

Chargar, Thank you for putting this into perspective. I had some of the same misunderstandings when I first started casting and shooting boolits. I think there are a lot of times when these kinds of statements will answer many questions that people didn't even think to ask. There is a huge amount of talent and knowledge on this forum, and I am certainly glad it is available for those just starting. Sometimes you just can't find the answers in a book, and you have to talk to others who are doing this too in order to make sense of things.

My ¢2
Armorer

[Jailer]

IMHO the solution begins with an understanding of the term "leading". Way to many folks think there will never be any trace of lead left by the bullet in the barrel. I am talking handguns here. This can be true if gas checks are used, but 95% of the time there will be a lead wash in the barrel with plain based cast bullets.

You know Charger, I used to think this too when I first started. I read all the threads where people reported "zero leading" and I just couldn't figure out how they were doing it. Well I ended up trying an undersize (for cast) boolit in my 21 with a KKM barrel and I did finally acheive zero leading. I've fired hundreds of rounds now without cleaning with an appropriate sized boolit for my gun and have zero leading. You can push a dry patch through on a jag and the barrel looks like it hasn't had a shot through it so I do believe no leading is possible. I've just started playing with some 38 loads in my GP100 and so far have experienced the same results.


The amount of crimp to be used with the 45ACP has varied all over the place. Presently a crimp between .468 and .471 is popular with many bullseye shooters using cast boolits. This straightens out the bell and may give a little inward crimp. Now if you step back in history a little (OK, quite a bit for the younger set) John Giles who was a noted gunsmith back in the 60s and 70s ran some tests with the H&G 68 and the H&G 130 and recommended going down as far as .463. The August 1961 issue of the American Rifleman had an article by Alton Dinan Jr. (reprinted in the NRA Cast Bullets Book) where he tested both roll and taper crimps where the mouth diameter was reduced to .460 for both types of crimp. With one mold the .460 taper crimp gave the best accuracy and with another mold and different alloy the taper crimp accuracy was .25 inches larger than the roll crimp. Both molds were H&G 130. In both cases the group fired with the uncrimped cases was at least .75 inches larger than the taper crimp group. Since he did not compare light and heavy taper crimps it would be interesting to see if there are any tests done that way before writing off the use of a heavy taper crimp.

I have a crimp die set up for a .463 crimp. I took a H&G 130 boolit that was sized to .4525, and seated and crimped it. I then pulled the boolit and made some measurements. The diameter ahead of the crimp was .4525 as expected. The diameter at the front of the crimp had gone down to .444 and tapered to .446 at the leading edge of the lube groove. The diameter at the base of the boolit was .4525 so there had not been any sizing due to the seating operation. The brass was once fired WCC 75 MATCH brass.

Such a timely post for my situation. I've been having some feeding problems with my 21 with a KKM barrel using a NOE H&G 130 copy. I've tried several different seating depths but it was a tighter crimp that finally cured the problem. Good thing too since my 5 cavity NOE mold is a DREAM to cast with. Drops perfect boolits effortlessly so I really wanted to get this one working.

[Armorer]

[QUOTE=Jailer;1276244] Well I ended up trying an undersize (for cast) boolit in my 21 with a KKM barrel and I did finally acheive zero leading. I've fired hundreds of rounds now without cleaning with an appropriate sized boolit for my gun and have zero leading. You can push a dry patch through on a jag and the barrel looks like it hasn't had a shot through it so I do believe no leading is possible. QUOTE]

Um,..so I stand corrected? LOL. :oops:

[Jailer]

Um,..so I stand corrected? LOL. :oops:

Not at all, trust me I'm no authority on casting. My point being it is possible just depends on the gun. I have a 9mm that no matter what I do I can't get it to shoot without at least some leading.

[BulletFactory]

I'm going with my usual minority opinion here once again.

Have you taken a look at the throat? I've seen quite a few 1911 barrels lead in the first inch from folks sizing SWCs to .452 and shooting them in a new .451 barrel with no throat. Think about it for a minute. If you jam a .452 object with a square leading edge through a .451 hole with a square leading edge you are gonna shave some lead from the boolit every time. The easy way to check this is to clean your barrel well, then fire one round only. Then pull the barrel and take a close look at it. Maybe run one dry tight patch through. If you see lead shavings in the beginning of the barrel you'll get a clue. The cure for this is a throating reamer, or 2,000 rounds of jacketed ball, or using a TC or ogival boolit sized to the proper diameter and seated so it can align with the throat when chambered, (also much more accurate).

BD

I've had one heck of a time with the .40, trying everything under the sun, and I'm sure that this is what's going on with it. My gunsmith told me that it should cost between 75 and 100$ to fix this. I am getting severe leading, and these little lead rings that build up from where the casemouth rests in the chamber. They would eventually prevent the gun from going into battery. I've tried different powders, alloys, hardnesses, seating depths, crimps, OAL adjustments, expander dies, and lubes. If you try everything and still have more lead in the barrel than what hits the target, you may want to try cutting the throat.

After this much trouble, you might just be aggravated enough to cut the guns throat, lol.

[Char-Gar]

Jailer.. Read my entire post. There is more there than what was lifted. I will stick by it.