crimp and cast bullets

[milprileb]

While pulling off all my Lee carbide taper crimp dies and replacing with factory type, it dawned on me: I don't have a clue what is enuff or too much of a crimp. I got calipers so is there a general rule of how much I should measure to see if enuff crimp is being applied to pistol ammo : 9mm and 45ACP ?

Up to now, I was just swagging it.

I do believe I was swaging bullets using the carbide crimp die which has been discussed on this board a bit. Or I have the Lee die perfectly adjusted incorrectly !!

[gray wolf]

The best answer is no crimp,

Just remove the flare at the end of the case, the one you put there to help get the bullet started in the case. Then take the barrel out of your pistol and confirm that the round drops freely into and out of it under it's own weight.
These rounds use a taper crimp, it does not tighten the hold on your bullet.
What they can do is loosen the hold on a lead bullet, why ?
because if it's over done the lead bullet is reduced in size when the brass is squeezed down,
then the brass springs back but the lead does not.
Bullet hold is achieved by friction, this is accomplished by using the correct size expander plug. ( bottom half of the die that flares the case mouth.
So just crimp enough to remove the flare at the case mouth, crimp is not even a good word to use. The important thing is having the bullets function in your pistol.
See above about dropping a round into your chamber.

[Mavrick]

I believe more problems are caused by the use of that "factory crimp die" than it EVER solved. I doesn't do much with j-word bullets, and nothing but harm with boolits.
If you want to use your calipers, just measure the case barely below the "bell" then at the mouth of the case to be sure you haven't any bell left with the boolit seated.
I'm talking of straight auto cases, ie .45 ACP, 9mm Luger, .40 S&W, 10mm etc.
Have fun,
Gene

[mdi]

I started reloading before Lee came out with their "Factory Crimp Die" for pistols, and there were prolly bizillions of 45 ACP rounds reloaded before that. When I began reloading for autoloaders, I studied and researched how to "crimp" them (I don't like to use the term "crimp" when talking about auto cartridges with new reloaders, but prefer "flare removal", because no "crimping' is done, just straightening out the flare of the case mouth). I believe the trem "crimping" causes too many problems for the new reloader, they may be looking for some visible change in the case. I have no use for a Lee FCD. Some fellers measure the mouth of the case to determine how much flare removal is being done (I've read .472", but have never measured mine). There is no magic involved, just de-flare the case mouth until you get the "plop" test success...

[1Shirt]

I crimp for heavy recoiling loads in 357, 44M, 308, 06, 375H&H, 444, and 45-70. Don't really have to for 45-70 as I shoot a #1, but it shoots more accurately with crimp. Don't like blt jump in revolvers due to the possibility of cyl jam. Have seen it happen.
1Shirt!:coffee:

[fredj338]

You can measure, but most exp reloaders can eyeball it. If it looks like a crimp on a TC, it' too much, if you still see a flare.bell, it's too little. You can always measure it, but I never have. IMO, the LFCD is a solution to a non existent problem. My tests in 45acp shows a degredation of accuracy w/ softer cast & plated bullets.

[onondaga]

I consulted with the Lee Technical Dept on this very subject and was given a specific answer regarding my .458 Win Mag loads with the Factory Crimp Die and cast boolits. The representative told me to measure the crimp at the case mouth diameter and measure the case diameter 1/8 inch from the mouth. He recommended a .002" to .004" smaller diameter at the crimp and advised me that it is a very small area to measure accurately and to also use a magnifier to view the placement of the dial caliper jaws for the measuring.

My crimp is into the flat of a driving band on a cast lead bullet and I set the die to crimp .003". This has worked well in my application. He said that is a good general rule to set the die to crimp .003" into a driving band on cast boolits but also warned that heavier than recommended crimping is likely to tear off Gas Checks when shooting loads with Gas Checked boolits.

Gary

[captaint]

What grey wolf said..... My 45ACP rounds generally end up at .472 at the rim. I use a Lyman M die and Lyman "taper crimp die". Alls well... Mike

[nwellons]

Good question. I'm pretty new at reloading and just started crimping for a 1911. I think I was in the ballpark but thanks to everyone for the answers.

[Bullwolf]

I am going to echo a couple of others here for 45acp.

Generally I will taper crimp to .473 at the case mouth for MY personal 45acp pistols.

If the rounds are going to be fired in any guns, other than my own, I will taper crimp down to .471 so I know the boolits will always chamber reliably. I don't especially like to over crimp, it just overworks the brass for no good reason. I know that in my guns, .473 will always chamber.

.471 taper crimp will consistently fit in my case check gauge though.

I own a Lee Carbide Factory Crimp Die, but I have not had a reason to use it yet.
If it isn't broken... there is no need to fix it.

I typically like to use a RCBS 4 die set, and I seat, and then taper crimp in a separate step.
(I seat in a backed off roll crimp die)

My personal favorite TL452-230-2R 45acp boolits are sized at .452, and I like them to stay that way.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3864

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3862

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3863

I make sure I have enough case flare so I don't shave lead off my boolits, or size down my boolits when I seat them. I don't really trust the Lee factory crimp die not to size the boolits down either.

One of my loaded rounds will not slide easily into a Lee FCD, yet it will fit, and head space just fine in my chamber. So the Lee FCD will be working either the brass, or the boolit down just a bit more than I really need it to.

However, one day I might just use the Lee FCD as a check die, but for jacketed ammunition only.

- Bullwolf

[a.squibload]

I figured one more thread and I would go to bed.
This one helped me build my knowledge base on "taper crimp".
Maybe it should be called "friction fit" or something.
I freely admit I have been doing it wrong (although the boolits flew out the muzzle end).
Coming from revolver reloading I read about taper crimp, and still got the wrong idea.
Didn't size cases properly and had to crimp the heck out of 'em to hold the boolits.

I have measurements from another thread to check my expander plug and "crimped" .40 cartridges.
It's starting to make sense!

PS: I use my barrel as a case gauge, guess that's OK.

PPS: Bullwolf, good looking ammo. I'll get me a 45 one of these days.

[Bullwolf]

Thanks a. squibload

I lose more sleep from the "just one more thread before I go to sleep" thing myself.

Speaking of which I should really go to sleep myself, just after this one more post.

I tend to use my favorite 45's barrel as a head space gauge, and something of a case gauge too.

If it fits in my Springfield 1911, it will fit in my old Colt 1911, and everything else I own as well. But I will use a SAMMI case check gauge, if I am making ammunition for someone Else's guns, other than my own.

I notice quite a large variance in brass thickness too.

I find that it often helps if you separate your brass, and work with batches that are all of the same brand and head stamp, if you can.

It is annoying when I am using Winchester Brass and I get my crimp set just the way I want it, and I go and lock down the die... Then my next batch of brass turns out to be Remington and quite a bit thicker than what I was previously using, wrecking my perfect adjustments. Of course forcing me to go back and re-adjust my dies all over again.

If I want to be consistent, I like to do batches using all of the same brand, and head stamp of brass, at the same time.

However there have been days where I would just churn out a large quantity of low quality mixed range target fodder, while using a progressive press and random range brass, but it would often bite me in the rear later.

It is almost always well worth the time it takes to sort into batches by manufacturer.

- Bullwolf

[Shiloh]

Just close the bell. maybe a fraction more. That's all.

If you leave the edge up from the belling, there could be feeding issues from finicky feed ramps.
Shiloh

[Frozone]

.......

It is annoying when I am using Winchester Brass and I get my crimp set just the way I want it, and I go and lock down the die... Then my next batch of brass turns out to be Remington and quite a bit thicker than what I was previously using, wrecking my perfect adjustments. Of course forcing me to go back and re-adjust my dies all over again.......

- Bullwolf

I'm not sure I understand this.
How can the thicker brass wall effect the Outside Diameter?? It will tend to swage the boolit a little more but you can't increase the OD and not have been in error on the first crimp setup.

The case trim length will effect the crimp far more than brass thickness. Make sure all your cases are the same length. They can vary considerably between manufacturer.

[mdi]

I consulted with the Lee Technical Dept on this very subject and was given a specific answer regarding my .458 Win Mag loads with the Factory Crimp Die and cast boolits. The representative told me to measure the crimp at the case mouth diameter and measure the case diameter 1/8 inch from the mouth. He recommended a .002" to .004" smaller diameter at the crimp and advised me that it is a very small area to measure accurately and to also use a magnifier to view the placement of the dial caliper jaws for the measuring.

My crimp is into the flat of a driving band on a cast lead bullet and I set the die to crimp .003". This has worked well in my application. He said that is a good general rule to set the die to crimp .003" into a driving band on cast boolits but also warned that heavier than recommended crimping is likely to tear off Gas Checks when shooting loads with Gas Checked boolits.

Gary

Gary, 458 Win. Mag. is a rifle round and uses a different Lee Factory Crimp Die, which uses a collet. The pistol cartridge FCD uses a carbide sizing ring ahead of a standard taper crimp...

[Char-Gar]

Lee Factory Crimp dies have distorted far more cast bullets than a taper crimp ever did. A properly adjust taper crimp die will do no harm to cast bullet in the 45 ACP and 9 MM rounds.

Here is how such a taper crimp die is adjusted. No need to fuss or measure.

1. Insert a factory or military round into the press ram and lift to full height.
2. Screw by hand, the TC die down on the round as hard as you can. Use only you hand and no tools.
3. Set the die lock ring and you are good to go.
4. Make of the case will make no difference

Remove you barrel and use it as a bullet seating gauge. Seat the bullet a little at a time, until the case head is flush with the rear end of the barrel hood. Now try the round in a magazine and if it fits, you are good to go.

Loading for the autopistol is not near as difficult nor confusing as many folks make it. We have been loading the 45 ACP round for 100 years and there are no secrets about how to do it.

[sisiphunter]

I have never used the factory crimp die on pistol/straight case rounds. I do use a roll crimp in my 44mag carbine, works great and shoots best that way. As for rifle i almost always crimp. I tested in 303brit and found a good heavy factory crimp works best for accuracy. At least in my application. I have also found using the FCD on J-words also helps for me at least. In my 223 for example a Savage Edge, using without crimp gave my 1-1/2" grouos at 100m. Using the crimp tightened them up to .5" groups consistantly......

Doesnt really address FCD in pistols, but my experience anyways.

[gray wolf]

Don't know anyone that separates 45 cases according to case length, or anyone that ever trims 45 cases. What would you trim to ? there all short after 1 or 2 re-size and shoot.

[geargnasher]

Here's the dope on the Lee FCD for STRAIGTHT-WALLED PISTOL CARTRIDGES, the rifle FCD is a different animal altogether, and a great product for cast shooters.

First, the pistol FCD has a carbide sizer ring in the base which is exactly the same size as the one in the sizer die. Usually the cast boolit expands the case more than the sized diameter because it is slightly oversized compared to jacketed stuff. When you run your cast boolit cartridge through the FCD, the ring swages BRASS AND BOOLIT together until the OD of the case is the same as it was before seating. The result is your .452" boolit is now .450", as an example.

For .45 ACP and 9mm, all the crimp you need is just to straighten out the bellmouth, NO MORE.

The difference between the automatics and the revolvers with regard to crimp is the inertial forces on the cartridges NOT being fired during a recoil event. With revolvers, static inertia of the unfired boolits during recoil will cause them to pull out of an under-crimped or insufficiently-tensioned case. That's why revolver designs have a dedicated crimp groove for the most part. Automatics, on the other hand, generally try to force the boolits DEEPER in the case under recoil, because the boolits encounter the front of the magazine under recoil and the static inertia of the CASE tends to drive the case down around the boolit. So, no crimp at all is necessary with the autos except to close the bellmouth enough so they will chamber.

What IS important about loading for the autos is that the expander actually EXPAND the case down just past where the boolit base will be seated, thus creating a little ledge inside the case. Just the right amount of expansion is important, too much and there won't be enough case tension, too little and the boolit will be swaged undersized when seated in the case. This latter is a chronic issue with tough, high-pressure cases like the 9mm and the .40, not so much with the old .45 ACP. This ledge left from a correctly sized expander spud will prevent the boolit from going deeper under recoil, raising pressures when it's chambered and fired, and causing a Kaboom. I've had it happen, not good.

GW, I agree fully! If you're trimming you .45 ACP brass, you REALLY have too much time on your hands! I've NEVER seen a .45 ACP case that wouldn't chamber due to being too long, and I've fired some dozens of times.

Gear

[midnight]

I used to trim them to 0.888 when I first started to load and only had pickup brass. The shortest ones were 0.888 so I trimmed them all to that. Then I bought 500 new cases and found none of them were Saami length, not even close. I let all the 0.888 cases lay at the range and havn't trimmed another one since.

Bob

[fredj338]

The case trim length will effect the crimp far more than brass thickness. Make sure all your cases are the same length. They can vary considerably between manufacturer.
In revolvers, yes, length matters more for roll crimp. In psitols, a thicker case can certianly cause an issue as the OD will be slightly larger than thinner brass. I find the odd thicker case in ym range pickups & it will fail my case gage after loading.

[Bullwolf]

I'm not sure I understand this.
How can the thicker brass wall effect the Outside Diameter?? It will tend to swage the boolit a little more but you can't increase the OD and not have been in error on the first crimp setup.

The case trim length will effect the crimp far more than brass thickness. Make sure all your cases are the same length. They can vary considerably between manufacturer.

Perhaps I worded this poorly due to lack of sleep.

While loading up a large batch of cast 45acp boolits sized at .452....

I loaded up the first half using Winchester Brass, ran it through my dies, checked head space in my 1911 and double checked the loaded round with a case gauge. I got my taper crimp set the way I liked it, and measured at the case mouth to .473 then I locked down my taper crimp die.

I then loaded the last half using the Remington Brass. I ran it all through my same dies, set up the same way. It would not chamber in my gun. The taper crimp on the case mouth of the Remington Brass measured around .475

The only change for me was using the Remington Brass.

I ended up tightening up the crimp considerably for the batch of Remington brass. A few more partial turns of the die, and it would chamber. It then measured .473 at the case mouth.

Could I have made a mistake and locked down the dies wrong? Sure it is possible. It is also possible that the brass was a bit longer than the previous batch.

Of course that is also why we double check things too.

Either way, I easily managed to fix the problem.

I was using once fired Remington, and once fired Winchester Brass. Sadly I have loaded it all up and I did not bother to check its overall length, but I don't usually see once fired 45acp cases stretching a whole lot either, so I don't often check or trim, unless it is brand new brass.

I assumed (yes I know, always a bad idea) that the Remington brass was just thicker, and that was what was affecting my crimp. I suspect you are correct and that the Remington case length was just longer than the Winchester brass.

I just usually see long cases happen more often in bottle neck rifle cartridges, than in straight wall pistol cartridges, especially when shooting mild cast loads in 45acp.

Translation: I don't typically trim 45acp, like I do rifle brass.

I also have noticed that a taper crimp is also quite a bit more forgiving of a longer overall length, than a roll crimp is.

Your post motivated me go back and measure a few different brands of 45acp brass that I had on hand.

OAL

RP-------------.889
CBC-----------.890
IMI------------.887
PMC-----------.888
Federal-------.883
Blazer--------.887
Federal-------.887
Hornady------.887


Quite a bit of variance, for just a few different brands of cases. I sadly have loaded all of the problem brass already. . I made notes, and I will be sure to check after I fire it, to see if it will be of an abnormally long overall length.

I also notice that different kinds of brass, will seat primers differently. Some brass is easy, some requires a touch more effort, but each has its own unique feel. Since I do not hand prime, I still prefer to sort my brass and do all the same brand of head stamp at once.

One piece of Blazer 45acp with a small pistol primer pocket instead of a large pistol primer pocket, can really throw off your game if it gets mixed in with your standard brass - especially when you are using a progressive press.

I have loaded lots of mixed brass before, and I just find it is just smoother when I sort out the steel cases, the brass, the nickel cases, and military brass, and then do it all in the same batch, but that's just me.

Sorry for the confusion, and thank you for the OAL clarification Frozone. I do not wish to spread misinformation, and I am glad that you called me on it.


- Bullwolf

[mdi]

This question comes up more and more frequently now. I guess a lot of new reloaders are having problems straightening the case mouth on their auto cartridges.

I think a sticky should be made from geargnasher's last post, or at least the first 2 paragraphs. Explained very well. I learned this about a dozen or so years ago (mostly from reading and experience; visualizing the interior of a chamber during feeding).

[a.squibload]

Thanks to all, good info.
I never used to trim 44 brass, some of it I fired MANY times.
Just didn't seem to stretch.
Now I have a pistol that headspaces on the case mouth,
I'm sure the design was intended to confuse me!

I find when swaging pistol cases into boolits I get different nose filllout.
At first I weighed the cores and the cases, and measured the cases.
Didn't seem to be that much difference, but still I got different results
for a given die adjustment.
Probably due to the cases as the cores are very close to the same weight
(as I get better at casting).
I think I'll start separating cases before I start, for swaging and reloading.
And I definitely have a different perspective on crimping now.

[casterofboolits]

The most uiseless piece of reloading gear I ever bought was an RCBS 45 ACP Trim die when I first started loadin for My 1911 in 1974. It is still "new in the box" on the shelf!

Most of my 45 ACP is military and I keep it in 1,000 round lots, after five firings the brass is regulated to practice rounds.

As to crimp, just enough to remove the flair.

[Bullwolf]

Just in case anyone was lying awake at night wondering...

I pulled some of the cast 45acp Boolits that I loaded with Remington Brass.

and

I pulled some of the cast 45acp Boolits that I loaded with the Winchester Brass as well.

Over All Length on the Winchester Brass averaged pretty consistently around .888

Over All Length on the Remington Brass averaged around .887

So, the Remington Brass was not too long, if anything it was a tad shorter.

The Remington Brass that I was using was some once fired Golden Saber HP fodder. The Brass also happens to be nickel plated. It was just a tad thicker than my Winchester Brass was. Perhaps there was a thicker plating of nickel on the outside of the case, or maybe Remington 45acp brass from that lot just came out thicker.

I could not really mic the thickness of the brass accurately, without destroying the cases, and cutting them so I could open them up really, but I could come close enough with calipers to tell it was a little bit thicker than the Winchester Brass that I had previously been using.

For the record, I ran my micrometer over the pulled .452 cast Boolits, they are all still .452. Seating, taper crimping, and then gently pulling the rounds in the thicker Remington Brass (using a kinetic bullet puller) has not re-sized my cast Boolits at all. My default ingot alloy has a tad more Linotype in it than is really necessary for 45acp though, and it makes the Boolits a bit tougher than they need be for the mild 45acp cartridge.

I can also shoot plain old Air Cooled Wheel Weight lead just fine in 45acp, and it is even easier to re-size. In general, I have found the 45acp to be a pretty forgiving cartridge to load for.

I also have an old RCBS Case Trimmer 2, that has yet to trim a piece of 45acp brass. Maybe someday I will cut some 308, or some 30'06 down to 45, but not today.

I have mostly used it for rifle brass like .223, and bigger 30 caliber stuff. I did use it to make some 38 S&W cases, that I cut down from .357 brass though.

Just and update for you guys, and thank you for listening. :castmine:

Cheers


- Bullwolf

[myg30]

First, Bullwolf, I need to know if you polished them babys up for the picture pose, or do you just load the prettest ammo I've ever seen ? Great lookin stuff !

I always learn something new when I get the time to read here. Never used a FCD, but must have always over crimped the cases do to wrong info when learning to reload pistol. This is CHANGE I can appreciate !!
Keep up the good work !

Mike

[geargnasher]

Bullwolf, I feel it is very important to reiterate, in the light of the OP, that you are NOT using an FCD on your brass, and that's why you aren't getting boolit swaging.

As an experiment, load one of your thicker-walled, unprimed, sized, and expanded junk cases with one of your boolits, then change out the taper-crimp die for the Lee FCD, pull a boolit and measure it. You'll see why people have problems after using that die.

Gear

[1bluehorse]

I reload 45 colt not ACP. I've read so much of this "the carbide factory crimp die is swaging my cast bullets down to .429-.451-.357 (name your caliber) so I thought I would pull some of my reloads that were crimped using the LCFCD. The 45 cal boolits were all sized with a Star sizer at .452. Pulled boolits still measured .452....pulled some 44mags that were sized at .430, crimped with the LCFCD, still measured .430
Maybe others are having a problem but according to what I measured I'm not. I also have no problems seating and crimping with just the seater die.

[Frozone]

first, the pistol fcd has a carbide sizer ring in the base which is exactly the same size as the one in the sizer die.


you are wrong!

[Bullwolf]

First, Bullwolf, I need to know if you polished them babys up for the picture pose, or do you just load the prettest ammo I've ever seen ? Great lookin stuff !!

Mike


I do polish them up a bit. Tumble Lubed Bullets spinning around in a tumbler full of well used corn cob media get sorta gunky.

I am occasionally anal enough to take a rag and polish the Tumble Lube off the outside of the bullets before, or after I tumble them. In this case I did just that for the picture.

Also in my experience my old Linotype alloy, when cast at just the right temperature, not too cold and not quite frosty, comes out really shiny and stays that way for quite a long time.

It makes a hard bullet though which is not always desirable, but it is quite resistant to surface oxidation over time, unlike my straight wheel weight lead.

The problem with my Linotype (heck it could have even been Mono type) is that I never really knew exactly what the alloy composition was of the individual pieces of type, before I went and melted it into ingots. It tends to cast a bit on the pink colored side, making me think it has some Bismuth in it however.

Gear has mentioned quite a bit about printing type,and probably knows a lot more than me about the subject.

My Grandfather ran a print shop, and I inherited quite a bit of his old "Linotype" offset printing type when the medium became obsolete. I still alloy it with Wheel Weights when I want an especially hard, or shiny Boolit.

- Bullwolf

[Bullwolf]

Bullwolf, I feel it is very important to reiterate, in the light of the OP, that you are NOT using an FCD on your brass, and that's why you aren't getting boolit swaging.

As an experiment, load one of your thicker-walled, unprimed, sized, and expanded junk cases with one of your boolits, then change out the taper-crimp die for the Lee FCD, pull a boolit and measure it. You'll see why people have problems after using that die.

Gear

Gear is correct, and I also am guilty of drifting a bit off topic.

I did not, and DO NOT use a Lee FCD on my brass. I had only mentioned that I did not get bullet swagging down from my pulled cast Boolits from the slightly thicker brass due to an earlier comment from Frozone.

The Lee FCD has a smaller inside diameter, and I have no desire to swage down my .452 cast Boolits, since they are sized perfectly for my 45acp bore.

My nice shooting, loaded rounds head space fine, but they do not fit easily in the Lee FCD. I have zero inclination to shove one of my rounds in the Lee FCD and size it down more than it needs to be. Other than for an experiment, or to prove a point, there is just no reason to do it.

I am a big believer in the old saying... If it aint broken - Don't fix it.

If the Lee FCD works great for others, that's cool for them, but it seems like it's use is meant to address a problem, that I do not have.

I already have a RCBS Carbide sizer die, I don't really see the need to use another sizing die, a second time during my crimping stage when using cast Boolits.

I also do not like when the FCD is meant to be used. I size my brass, then I flare it, and I use a generous case flare to make sure I do not shave, or size down my cast Boolits. I do not understand why I would want to size the now loaded round down again. (heck that was my first step after all, why do it again with the boolit in the case neck?) after flaring and gently seating a cast Boolit, and then removing the bell from the case flare with a taper crimp die, why would I even need to re size my brass again, and risk swaging down my loaded cast Boolit?

I will just keep the Lee FCD die on the shelf in case I ever find a use for it with FMJ ball ammo. Or alternatively, maybe one day it will get put to use as a brass bulge buster.


- Bullwolf

[prs]

I have Lee 4 die sets in three hand gun calibers; 38spcl, 45 Colt (LC), and 40 S&W. In all three of those the FCD die's carbide case sizer is larger than the one in the deprime/full length sizer die. The FCD case sizer ring should not make firm contact with the case unless there is a problem. One exception to that observation is when using .454" boolits in the Colt revolver cartridges with the M die that fits them, then the FCD sizer does make contact - but with that boolit size I crimp and seat in the standard die. Even with roll crimp rounds, but especially with taper crimps, less is more. With taper crimps, the consensus now seems to be none is more.

prs

[Johnny_Cyclone]

Bullwolf,

How about knocking the carbide ring out of the FCD, and just using it to close the case flare.

Leave the seating die set to only seat. That way if one runs into a brass thickness issue they can just adjust the carbide-less FCD to modify the crimp. This leaves the seating die setting alone, and it would remain just where they wanted it for OAL..?...no boolit swaging, more range brass-pick-ups flexibility, and a spare sizing ring should they ever score up the carbide ring of the station #1 sizing die??

Just a thought

I hate to see a die just setting there while the others haft'a work for a living..

[Dale53]

I disagree with the consensus regarding taper crimping. I taper crimp to a very specific dimension of the mouth of the case (.470"). The taper crimp serves at least TWO purposes: first and most evident is that it removes the case flare (necessary when seating cast bullets), second, it prevents deep seating when the bullet strikes the loading ramp of the barrel. This second is a necessary safety precaution. Deep seating in the short .45 ACP case can raise pressures to the point that it can blow out cases and damage the pistol and operator.

.470" crimp standard does NOT damage bullets, helps feeding, and eliminates telescoping of bullets (deep seating) when the bullet slams into the loading ramp.

I ran IPSC matches for five years (40 matches with attendance running 50-60 shooters). Those who taper crimped to .470" had NO problems such as I am discussing and those who did not often did. I have personally put around 200,000 rounds of .45 ACP downrange and consider that of some experience.

Dale53

[geargnasher]

you are wrong!

Nope. I have had the FCD in .45 ACP, .40 S&W, and 9mm, and they all had the same exact carbide ring in both the sizer and the FCD. Yours may measure different, and if that's true I guess that makes what both of us wrong.

I'll make you a deal. I won't say they're identical if you won't say they aren't, because apparently there are significant production variances in them. Fair enough?

Gear

[Bullwolf]

OK I had read this thread often enough that I decided to do the Lee FCD test.

I ran an empty piece of cartridge brass through my RCBS Carbide Sizer die it comes out around .465 at the case mouth

That will fit easily in my Lee FCD die without touching the sides hardly at all - it just glides through.

When I load cast Boolits, I flare the case out, seat, and then usually taper crimp my 45acp down to .473 at the case mouth for my guns, or .471 for 100% reliability in others guns.

.465 seemed a bit too tight to be running through the Lee FCD after I have seated a cast Boolit .

.473 brass case mouth
down to
.465 brass case mouth

Something has to give I figure, and it will likely be my .452 sized cast lead Boolit.

So I sit down and decided to waste one of my precious cast lead Boolits, and make a dummy cartridge. I might as well since I have all the dies out anyways at this point, and now I want to know for sure.

I lubed and ran a really hard .454 Linotype Boolit through my Lee sizer, and it now mics at .452. This is a really tough boolit that is 1 part Linotype, and 2 parts Wheel Weights, likely much harder than your typical 45acp cast lead Boolit will ever need to be.

I flared and seat it in my dummy case. my seat die just barely removes the bell of the flare off the case.

Now the case mouth mic's at .480 after seating with no crimp having been applied.

I removed the seat component in the Lee carbide FCD, back the crimp off quite a ways, and I just let the carbide ring re size the whole cartridge. It took a fair amount of effort, I assume because I did not lube the case.

I ran a micrometer over the outside of the case mouth again at this point.
I was very surprised to see it come out at .473 and it fits nicely in my favorite 45acp barrel. I was not expecting that at all. I really thought it would size it down much smaller, like say around .470 or smaller diameter.

Now I wasn't so sure about how this would all turn out , so I pulled the Boolit on the dummy round gently using my old kinetic bullet puller, and ran the Micrometer over it. Presto a .451 diameter lead Boolit now.

I wasn't just sizing the brass, I also re sized my really tough cast Lino Boolit through the brass using the Lee FCD.

To be fair, when I taper crimp with a normal die I just do the case mouth though and not the whole bearing surface of the bullet. The Lee FCD re sizes almost the whole length of the cartridge.

It wouldn't have been a bad thing if I was going to load, and shoot jacketed ammunition. My 1911 prefers .452 not .451 cast lead Boolits though. Heck, some folks out there even go as large as .453 -.454 diameter.

I know can say with 100% certainty that my Lee FCD will mess up a .452 or larger cast lead 45acp Boolit, and swage it down to .451

I have seen it first hand in 45acp now to my own personal satisfaction.

Sometimes you just have to prove it to yourself. They say seeing is believing. My results echo the same thing that the experts have already been saying on this thread. The Lee FCD will swage down oversize cast lead Boolits.

As a sizer die, I don't have a problem with the FCD die, it does almost the same thing as my initial Sizer/De-priming die. After running this test I would use it now to reload target full metal jacket ammunition, if I had to.

However I will NOT be using it on seated cast lead Boolits EVER, especially after this little experiment.

Feel free to run the same experiment for yourself.


- Bullwolf

[Bullwolf]

Bullwolf,

How about knocking the carbide ring out of the FCD, and just using it to close the case flare.

Leave the seating die set to only seat. That way if one runs into a brass thickness issue they can just adjust the carbide-less FCD to modify the crimp. This leaves the seating die setting alone, and it would remain just where they wanted it for OAL..?...no boolit swaging, more range brass-pick-ups flexibility, and a spare sizing ring should they ever score up the carbide ring of the station #1 sizing die??

Just a thought

I hate to see a die just setting there while the others haft'a work for a living..


I have heard of people doing exactly what you have suggested.

The thing is... I have a 4 piece RCBS carbide die set in 45 acp

I have two types of crimp dies, a roll crimp die and a taper crimp die.

I use the roll crimp die backed way off, as just a bullet seating die. Then I have the seating stem removed from my RCBS taper crimp die, and I taper crimp after seating as a second step.

I like the idea of the Lee FCD, (Heck, it sounded good enough on paper to purchase in the first place) but... I really have no use for it.

I will just stick with using my proven RCBS die combination for cast lead Boolits as I am used to them, and they work consistently and create accurate ammunition that is a joy to shoot.

I can live with occasional little taper crimp adjustments from time to time when I am using oddball brass.


- Bullwolf

[geargnasher]

If you used a softer, less springy boolit than that lino boolit it might come out .450". I don't know, I seem to have the only FCD dies they made that have the same ring as the sizer. Thanks for taking me up on the challenge, most people here prefer to just think I'm crazy rather than actually test it for themselves.

The FCD is great for J-words, though. It is quick and near absolute insurance that your cartridges will chamber, and for competition jacketed ammo it's hard to beat. It also helps iron-out any off-center bulges from seating the bullet crooked.

Gear

[Bullwolf]

If you used a softer, less springy boolit than that lino boolit it might come out .450". I don't know, I seem to have the only FCD dies they made that have the same ring as the sizer. Thanks for taking me up on the challenge, most people here prefer to just think I'm crazy rather than actually test it for themselves.

The FCD is great for J-words, though. It is quick and near absolute insurance that your cartridges will chamber, and for competition jacketed ammo it's hard to beat. It also helps iron-out any off-center bulges from seating the bullet crooked.

Gear

No Problem Gear, sometimes you just need to test things for yourself.

It does seem like it would work good with jacketed ammo, and now I might be more prone to use it for just that. Now that I have broken down and actually played around with the FCD. If I hadn't tried it out, I would be more likely to stick with what I already know and am comfortable with.

I had thought that the FCD die might be less forgiving on a less resilient Boolit too, like say stick on wheel weight lead, but I didn't have a softer slug around to test with.

They say one picture is worth a thousand words.
http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=539&pictureid=3879
Yes, I do measure with a Micrometer, but the mic photographs quite a bit poorer than the digital calipers.


- Bullwolf

[blackthorn]

Seems to me that all this simply reinforces the notion that makers of reloading equipment direct thier efforts toward loading jacketed bullets rather than cast!

[geargnasher]

That's true. Some of the tools aren't really interchangeable, for example you need a different expander sometimes for cast.

I don't have the stats, but I'd venture a guess that there are FAR more sales of reloading components to Jacketed reloaders than to casters, so it only makes sense that the manufacturers cater to the larger market. At least you can buy "m" dies and various expanders in some brands.

Gear

[shoez]

Hi, I am a new member here. I have been using Lee FCD's for a long time on the .45 acp. I didn't know I was wrong! haha. I've seen no change in groups from using the taper crimp/seating die then swapping to the FCD. I will look a little closer, but I'll don't see me not using it. (I use Lee TL 200 gr swc, 230 gr TL rn, and 230 gr TL truncated cones, cast with ww's) Maybe this was a conspiracy from Lee to get me to buy the 4 hole turret press and retire my old 3 hole press. I wonder.........

[geargnasher]

Shoez, if your FCD ring isn't too small for your particular boolit/barrel/brass combination, then you won't have problems. I'll say your situation is the exception more than the rule. The issue is more associated with leading the first part of the barrel rather than accuracy.

Gear

[Bullwolf]

Hi, I am a new member here. I have been using Lee FCD's for a long time on the .45 acp. I didn't know I was wrong! haha. I've seen no change in groups from using the taper crimp/seating die then swapping to the FCD. I will look a little closer, but I'll don't see me not using it. (I use Lee TL 200 gr swc, 230 gr TL rn, and 230 gr TL truncated cones, cast with ww's) Maybe this was a conspiracy from Lee to get me to buy the 4 hole turret press and retire my old 3 hole press. I wonder.........


There is nothing wrong with what you are doing at all, if it is working well for you Shoez. Your gun may also have a smaller barrel that slugs around .450 or .451.

Alternatively, you could have a slightly a larger sizer ring in your FCD than I do.

Or you could even be using the perfect combination of a soft lead bullet, just the right powder to bump the slug up to the perfect size to fit your barrel, and an excellent Boolit lube. Mix it all together, and it works great in your gun. There are so many variables that it's hard to say arbitrarily that this is the one ultimate recipe to assemble 45acp with, or that Brand X is the best, or worst die to use for everyone in this caliber.

But that's not really what you are after. You are looking for the perfect combination for you, that works in YOUR gun.

Fortunately .45acp is a pretty forgiving cartridge to reload.

Everyone's components, and guns can vary quite a bit. That's why you should always slug your gun, and then measure the slug with a micrometer to see what size Boolit is the best fit.

Just like not all Lee FCD's are the same, neither are all .45acp barrels.

For my 45acp's, I pretty much require a .452 diameter, or slightly larger bullet for the best accuracy and fit, as well as to prevent leading.

Since my Lee FCD will swage down a .452 cast Boolit to .451 - It just does not work well for me.

This seems to be a reoccurring problem for a lot of new casters on the board, so when trying to help a person narrow down a leading problem, it is often suggested that they do not use a FCD. It is just one variable of many in the equation though.



- Bullwolf

[35remington]

Gentlemen, there's a relatively easy way to determine if your chosen taper crimp offers any bullet holding force under feeding in an automatic.

Take an unsized case, with dacron in the bottom to support the bullet in the desired location. Taper crimp it to your chosen dimension.

Now tap the case/bullet against your loading bench to simulate feeding impact. The mild support of the dacron won't influence results.

Guess what?

At the levels most apply it (.470" vicinity) the taper crimp does nothing to hold the bullet in place. Lead or jacketed.

To form a "shoulder" on the lead bullet to aid in resisting bullet movement, crimp must be much greater than commonly applied, in the .462-.465" vicinity, at the minimum, depending upon brand of case and type of bullet.

When using jacketed bullets, even a heavy taper crimp doesn't do much to hold the bullet due to the harder jacket resisting the formation of a shoulder to abut the case mouth. Even with a heavy crimp, the "shoulder" formed has a rounded edge that doesn't do much on a jacketed bullet.

When using mixed cases, taper crimping to a fixed diameter is difficult because of variation in case length and thickness. Therefore, I question whether crimping to exactly, say, .471" is possible in mixed brass with a single taper crimp setting, as actual measurement indicates this does not occur. It is possible to crimp such that, say, the short and thin cases are crimped to .470" while the longer/thicker cases are crimped somewhat more.

But mixed cases to a single dimension just isn't possible.

[35remington]

BTW, if you're gauging your ammo, as you most certainly should be when loading for an automatic, what purposed does the LFCD serve?

I've seen on other threads where the posters claim they make "more reliable" ammo with it.

These fellas were failing to gauge their ammo in the first place. Since you should be gauging anyway as a smart handloader should, this leaves little reason or purpose for the factory crimp die.

[geargnasher]

I often load ammo for specific guns that exceeds the limits of both the gauging set and the FCD. I use the barrel for a case gauge in those instances.

I also maintain that it is case tension, not crimp, that does the job in autos, much as it does in revolvers. Any "crimp" is merely a bonus.

My failsafe in the autos is to use an expander that expands about .025" deeper than the boolit will be seated, and the case springback makes it an almost perfect bottleneck inside the case and so gives a choke point right at the boolit base. It is amazingly difficult to force even an undersized, soft boolit past this ledge. That's why I use as close to a neutral crimp as possible, other things are at work to keep the boolit where it should be.

.45 ACP also has a pretty distinct taper just below where at typical 230 grain boolit base will sit, and the only time I had big problems was when a micro-groove Lee boolit cast from soft alloy and having a bevel base slipped into a case that for some reason didn't hold the boolit securely like it's comrades did, resulting in deep seating that caused a mild but spooky Kaboom that blew the grip panels off and destroyed the magazine. I also used the factory expander up until that point, and it only expands the case about 1/8" deep. After that little incident I had a custom expander plug made, which also eliminated the leading I was experiencing due to case swaging.

Some folks have and use a .45 ACP Roll Crimp die, and I think that's a pretty good idea. The extractor claw keeps the case sucked up against the breech face, anyway, and you'd have to put a murderous roll crimp on it to cause any headspace issues.

Gear

[35remington]

When I speak of "gauging" I mean checking the ammo to see if it will fit, so a case gauge or a barrel may be used, as appropriate to the specific load.

I'm just not convinced of the value of a taper crimp applied to the most common diameters as a bullet holding device. I feel it is of no help there, by actual test.

If you want to see a vicious crimp used in testing 45 ACP ammo, read E H Harrison's Cast Bullet manual found in this site's reference section.

They describe taper crimping to .460" with 45 ACP target loads. Now that, I will admit, will form a shoulder on a lead bullet that helps prevent bullet movement in feeding.

How many of us taper crimp that much?

[geargnasher]

I totally agree about the value of a taper crimp for holding any kind of projectile. I learned not to try to crimp at all when using jacketed bullets. If you tried to actually crimp the mouth into the sides of the bullet, the mouth would just crush against the copper jacket and smear, and when pulled back out of the die the mouth would be slack for the first 1/16" or more, actually ruining part of the case tension. Not a good situation.

Gear

[35remington]

Here's the taper crimp situation by the numbers:

0.009"......the wall thickness of Winchester, Federal, and R-P cases in my collection. Yes, they are the same, within about a quarter of a thousandth of an inch. This with new brass.

0.018"....two wall thicknesses. Add to 0.452" and we obtain .470." Taper crimping to this dimension applies no indentation into the side of the bullet whatsoever. No effect from the crimp.....it's merely flush against the bullet.

If we desire to have the case wall dig into each side of the bullet a full 0.004", which happens to be only the thickness of a typical sheet of 8.5 by 11 inch paper, we must taper crimp to a measured dimension of .462." That's not a lot of "digging into" the bullet per side.

And again, how many of us admit to taper crimping that much? Allowing for spring back of the brass, the case wall must be swaged into the side of the bullet somewhat more than that for the final measurement to obtain .462."

Chamfering the case mouth makes the situation worse, as it allows the bullet a "running start" at the case mouth, making it more likely the bullet can slip past the taper crimped case mouth.

If you want the taper crimp to provide some assistance in bullet retention, better start cranking down on the TC die a lot more than is commonly suggested.

With the most common recommendation as to final diameter it's of no use whatsoever in holding the bullet in place.