38 Special Factory Duplication #3

[RDub]

Continuing with the endeavor to duplicate the Remington-UMC .38 Special 158gr Lead RN factory ammunition,..as promised, I re-shot the .38 Special trials last Saturday.
It was a blistering 65°F, or so, in the Southern Oregon foothills.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/DSC00190.jpg

The birds were chirping, the bugs were flyin.. So it was time.
Everything about this trial, including components lots, chono distance, gun, and where I shoot, is exactly the same as last time… ( if you need to catch up, check the link)

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/186472-38-spcl-factory-dup-phase-2-a.html

only thing different is the weather.
Here is what I came up with;

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/5-1-11.jpg

As anticipated, I had some velocity gains, and some stayed the same.. but what was really weird, some actually lost ground.
The groups tightened up as well as the extreme spreads, for the most part in the warmer weather.

The only load that was close to the Rem factory load was the 4.7grs N-320 load. (target #8)

The Winchester and Remington factory loads gained a little bit, while the Fed American Eagle stayed the same.

The big gainer was Universal with an increase of 68 fps over last time... I wonder what will happen if I shoot this load in 85°F weather.., followed by Power Pistol with 46 fps gain. Titegroup had a 43 fps increase. SR 7625 had a 34 fps increase.

The velocity losses were a little puzzling..

AA #5... -77
ZIP... -30
Red Dot... -27

The rest of the results are as follows;

Remington factory load... +13... Slight gain
Winchester factory load... +32... Gain
Fed American Eagle... -2 ... Virtually no change

Bullseye ... +10 ... Slight gain
700-X ... -7... Virtually no change
AA #2 ... +7... Virtually no change
231 ... +6 ... Virtually no change
HP-38 ... +1... Virtually no change
Unique... -2 ... Virtually no change
N-320... +11... Slight gain
Herco ... -9 ... Virtually no change
SR 4756 ... -7 ... Virtually no change

Giving thought to the idea that 3.5grs of Bullseye behind a 158gr lead RN is the long established factory duplication load, depending on what bullet you were working with and what factory load you were duplicating, could be possible and accurate.

The Remington load is a tough nut to crack staying within published max load data, and using this Speer lead RN bullet.

So the next step will be to see just what it will take to get this Speer bullet to achieve 770fps from a 4” barrel with the powders tried. Yes, they will be over the listed ‘max’ but now I’m curious. Then again, maybe in 85° weather I’ll get some very different results… We’ll see. Got wait until July or so though..

Maybe later, if I get real ambitious, I’ll try doing this again with another bullet.

Hard at it…


http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/DSC00183.jpg

[dverna]

You are one talented and methodical man.

I just KNOW I would shooting into the wrong target at least once.

Don

[Char-Gar]

Looks like you are having allot of fun in your effort to prove a point. Do you think you have proved anything yet and if so what?

[RDub]

Looks like you are having allot of fun in your effort to prove a point. Do you think you have proved anything yet and if so what?

Lol.. Well, it all started a while back when I chronographed some Rem-UMC .38 Spcl 158gr LRN ammo and was very impressed by the velocity I got.
I discovered that the Rem-umc round was loaded with 4.0grs of 'something'. So I thought as a handloader, I should be able to duplicate this performance. I had no trouble doing this with my own cast bullet, but I wondered if I could do it with a swaged lead bullet like the Rem load uses. So it all took off from there.
Turns out the Speer LRN bullet, which I thought was most similar to the Rem bullet, is rather difficult to push down the barrel compared with a cast bullet. Of coarse we all know it would be, but I wanted to see just how much..

So either the Rem bullet is lubricated with something much different than what Speer lubes their bullets with.. or.. Rem is using some blend of powder that has more energy than anything we can buy at the store.. or both. As the results show, I cannot touch 770fps with 4.0grs of anything available to me with the Speer swaged bullet.

Bottom line is, I believe that the ammo makers use their own custom blends of powders, not the stuff we buy at the gun store. I think there are some that don't believe this..

Hey.. the kids are gone.. the wife is sick of lookin at me.. and I have a little time on my hands.. what can I say?;-)

[Char-Gar]

It has been a very long time since the big ammo producers used the canister grade powders available to us handloaders. Their powders also have all sorts of additives not available in canister grade powders.

At one time you could buy Remington handgun bullets in bulk, but I am not sure that could be done now.

Those Speer swaged bullets roll snake eyes for me, before I get to factory velocities.

Press on, I can't think of a better use of a man's time.

[Shooter6br]

I have a Mod 10 Smith (1967) Load 147 WC with 3.5 g and 158 g with 4.5 g Unique

[fecmech]

I find it hard to believe you can't get 770 FPS with 4.0 of bullseye. The Lyman cast bullet handbook shows 4.2 BE on all their 158 gr. cast bullets and also on the 358429 at 168 grs. These are all standard pressure loads not +P. I run 4.2 BE with a 158 RN in a K-38 for my Hunters Pistol silhouette load, that clocks right at 900 fps out of my 6" bbl.

[35remington]

How about trying these powders with the exact factory bullet rather than a substitute that does not have a concave base? I think that's what the factory bullet has.

Relating with a different bullet will be difficult.

[RDub]

I find it hard to believe you can't get 770 FPS with 4.0 of bullseye. The Lyman cast bullet handbook shows 4.2 BE on all their 158 gr. cast bullets and also on the 358429 at 168 grs. These are all standard pressure loads not +P. I run 4.2 BE with a 158 RN in a K-38 for my Hunters Pistol silhouette load, that clocks right at 900 fps out of my 6" bbl.


I couldn't do it with 4.2grs of Bullseye (target #1).. I shot this round last Saturday. This is just for illustration only. I used SWAG to guess what it would take to get to 770fps. Some were close, some not so close.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/5-7-11.jpg

You can usually always get more velocity from a cast bullet than a swaged lead bullet with any given load. I've seen this over and over. If you go back though the links to my very first trail, I was using a 358311 .358 to duplicate factory velocity and had no trouble doing it.
This Speer bullet is a different story..

[RDub]

How about trying these powders with the exact factory bullet rather than a substitute that does not have a concave base? I think that's what the factory bullet has.

Relating with a different bullet will be difficult.

I would love to find some Remington Lead RN bullets. If you know where I can get some, I'll try this again.. Remington offers the SWC bullets but I've never seen any RN.

[35remington]

If all else fails, pull a few of the factory bullets and see if your powder charges work to duplicate their speeds using the identical bullet.

If bullet protrusion in the case is less than the factory load, velocities will be slower. Usually cast bullets run a tad faster than swaged with identical charges assuming same weight and same seating depth.

[RDub]

If all else fails, pull a few of the factory bullets and see if your powder charges work to duplicate their speeds using the identical bullet.

If bullet protrusion in the case is less than the factory load, velocities will be slower. Usually cast bullets run a tad faster than swaged with identical charges assuming same weight and same seating depth.

Hmm, not a bad idea..

Yes.. Earlier in this process I was using some 358311 Lyman sized at .358 and I had no trouble getting 770 fps with those. Just had to find out what these swaged bullets would act like.

[Swede44mag]

Great report & shooting. How big are your dots?
I used to love to shoot 38special untill a friend got me started on 44mag.
With the cost of lead I may have to go back to 38spc just to conserve my lead.

[runfiverun]

i notice that gun likes to throw a flyer.
something else to investigate..........

[RDub]

Great report & shooting. How big are your dots?
I used to love to shoot 38special untill a friend got me started on 44mag.
With the cost of lead I may have to go back to 38spc just to conserve my lead.

They are 5½". The same size as the black on a standard 25yd Slow Fire target.

Shoulda mentioned that I guess.

[RDub]

i notice that gun likes to throw a flyer.
something else to investigate..........

Yea I noticed that too.. I think its just me.. lot of shooting for one day..