What should I try in order to make a faster load work in my 30-30?

[Centaur 1]

I'll try and give all of my load info, hopefully someone will help guide me in the right direction. I've finally started casting and loading for my Marlin 336SS in .30-30. I bought the Ranch Dog TLC311-165-RF mold and a .310" Lee sizing die. My barrel slugs at exactly .308, and I had no leading problems at all. When I load to an OAL of 2.432", I get very light rifling impressions that are nice and even all the way around the nose of the boolit.

My alloy is range scrap from an indoor pistol range with an equal mix of cast and jacketed lead plus I added 2% tin. I don't have a hardness tester, but the boolits were soft so I heat treated them to 460*F for an hour, then water quenched in tap water. They're now too hard to scratch and when I try the bend test, I can bend them about 45* then start bending back before they break in half. I wish that I could say what the alloy is and how hard they are, but I can’t.

The powder that decided to try first is IMR 4895; my hopes were to find a powder that I could use to make a mid-range load about 1600 fps, as well as a full power hunting load going 2100 fps. I tried loads from 23 grains up to 32 grains, in one grain increments. My brass for my testing is all Winchester once fired, trimmed to 2.030”, C.O.L. is 2.432” which just touches rifling, and I used the factory crimp die. Primers are CCI #200. To make matters worse I don’t have a chronograph either, but nothing showed any signs of high pressure.

I used a lead sled solo, and all shooting was done at 100 yards. Here’s the list with powder weight and 3 shot group size. 23gr - .57”, 24gr - 1.4”, 25gr - .84”, 26gr – 1.4”, 27gr – 1.94”, 28gr – 3.32” (starting to show signs of the boolit not hitting the target squarely), 29gr – 3.04”, 30gr – 3.3”, 31gr and 32gr – no group and the boolits were definitely starting to wobble.

I’m getting really good groups at the slow end, but I wish that I could get better results at faster velocities. According to Ranch Dogs web site, my load with 25gr of powder should be traveling at 1600 fps, and he lists a 33.6gr load a tad over 2200 fps. So now that I’ve bored the heck out of anyone reading this, why did my boolits start to give out at the 28 grain load? The way the boolits were just flying all over the place with 31grains and above I thought maybe I had leaded the barrel, but that wasn’t what happened. The barrel was clean as a whistle. So where do I start if I want to get more velocity. Is my lead too hard or too soft? Should I try a different powder since imr4895 is on the slow side for the 30-30?

Thanks for any ideas.......Mike

[GRUMPA]

Well I must admit your doing real well in the experimenting department. I shoot lead in my 06 and am getting to the point of really tuning it in. I had to use like 4 powders before I got the 1 that worked for my rifle. The powders were for me a little tricky to figure but I got mine down to 1in at 100yds at about (no crony either) 2k FPS with my 311291 mold.

I found out thru trail and error that my rifle only liked (commercial lube) LBT Blue. I never got into making my own but I got some of the new LOTAK stuff and have yet to try it out. Just have to wait till the winds stop here. But I'd try a different lube and powder and see if that steers you in the right direction it did for me it might for you. And yes I heat treat mine just like you did with yours.

[ktw]

My best results with full power loads with several bullet designs in the 30-30 came with an even slower powder: H414/W760 in the 34-35gr range.

I tend to oven heat treat, similar to the way you describe, wheel-weight alloy for most rifle bullets that I plan to shoot 1900 fps+ at the range and keep a few oven heat treated 50-50 (wheel-weight/pure lead) alloy bullets around to load for actual hunting purposes.

-ktw

[geargnasher]

That was a good excercise, Centaur. You discovered the chase. Push it 'till it fails, then try to determine why it failed, fix it, and push it 'til something else fails.

If you didn't have any leading after all of that, I'd say you reached the point with your particular setup where either the alloy failed, or the launch pressure got too high for your chamber clearances, forcing the boolit to expand the neck sideways and getting damaged upon liftoff.

Easiest thing to do is try a slower powder to get a gentler "liftoff". A good, soft launch, or liftoff, is critical to good accuracy. Faster powders build peak pressure when the boolit is just engraving the rifling, or within an inch or two into the barrel. Slower powders build peak pressure after the boolit has engraved fully and is already moving along pretty well down the barrel. The key is to use the slowest powder you can that will accomplish two things: One, burn consistently at the working pressures of your cartridge, and two, be finished burning and cooling off as the boolit nears muzzle exit so the muzzle pressure is as low as possible, minimizing blast upset of the boolit as it clears the crown. Barrel length, boolit weight, and charge volume make these goals a "moving target", and often you get to a point midway through a workup with certain components where you have to change alloy (or temper), then lube, then powder as you go up the velocity spectrum in order to keep everything balanced. Just like building a vehicle, an economical grocery-getter has different needs than a top-fuel dragster, but they both have to have their own set of components matched to work together to get their respective jobs done.

I'd say go get a pound of Reloder 7 or WW748, start with midrange book loads for the equivalent jacketed weight. You should get into the high 2200's before you run out of case volume with 748. A slightly compressed load of 748 is right at top-end for the cartridge. See if that doesn't take care of your stability problem near the high end. If not, you may need to use Reloder 7 and some BPI Original compacting granular filler, RX7 has a smaller loading density than 748 and only a slightly faster burn rate in this cartridge, so it leaves some room for the filler, which will protect the boolit base better through launch and muzzle exit.

I've tried H414, but I can't get enough of that stuff in the case to get the same velocities I can with 748, and it's kinda spooky sometimes, really hard to light it consistently without magnum primers, and magnum primers can unseat the boolits by themselves. Hodgdon had some data for it, but it was with J-words and very, very narrow charge window like 296.

Gear

[Centaur 1]

If I go with a slower powder I'll probably have to forget about using only one for mid range target loads as well as full speed hunting rounds. It's my understanding that most slow powders don't like being reduced too far. Although with the 4895 that I used I got two groups under an inch, and two more that were under 1 1/2". That's not too shabby for a lever action rifle that was getting pretty hot with all the shooting that I did. From what I've seen there isn't much loading data for the slower powders in the 30-30, I assume that's because they're not needed for jacketed bullets.

One other thing that gear is making me think about is seating depth. This batch was seated .005" from touching the lands. The ogive on this boolit is a very long tangent style ogive, and I can seat the boolits out sow that they go into the rifling .005" and still not feel any resistance when closing the lever. Maybe I should try that so the boolits get started in the right direction. When I said that the boolits weren't hitting square, I was looking at a hole that was clean cut on one half(like a wadcutter hole) and the other half would have small tears around the edge. It was still a round hole and there was no evidence of keyholing, just that weird hole.

Thanks for all the suggestions........Mike

[geargnasher]

I have a Ranch Dog copy of that boolit with real lube grooves, I seat them to "just" engrave as the lever closes on my 336.

If you want ONE powder for the .30-30, my advice would be to use Reloder 7. I've reduced it to as little as fifteen grains under the 165-grain boolit plus 3/4-grain of Dacron, and paper gas checks. That gives very good accuracy, about 1300 fps or so, 1180 without the Dacron, and a clean burn with the filler. Turn around and use tougher boolits, a little slicker lube, copper gas checks, and run them at 2100 fps to make a good hunting load.

Another perspective is that, if you only have room in the budget for one type of powder, ten grains of Unique behind air-cooled wheel weights cut with some pure lead or stick-on wheel weights will punch clean through a whitetailed deer at 75 yards and still mushroom enough to put it down quickly. RX 7 is about thirty bucks a pound, Unique is cheaper an you use half as much. So you don't really need the velocity at shorter ranges, what you need is practice learning the trajectory/POI at different ranges. Don't let me or anyone else talk you into the "velocity trap" if you don't need the ability to make 150-yard shots. You obviously don't need any practice learning how to make tiny groups with that gun!

Gear

[Centaur 1]

I'm using Trail Boss for the low end loads and looking at my results I should use the imr4895 for mid-range loads at 1600fps. I have to assume that my lube is adequate for full speed since it works for others and this boolit was designed for it. I'm looking at the chart and rx7 is faster than 4895, maybe I should try 748 or blc-2 for more velocity.

[1Shirt]

Can't go wrong with the RD 165. My 94 likes .311-312 and Can Red lube. 4895 shoots well in mine, but don't overlook 2400 either. It is faster than 4895, and cheaper to load due to charge weight, and shoots well in mine. Good luck with your testing!
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Baja_Traveler]

26 grains of good ol' Varget and that bullet will knock over the 70 lb steel rams at 200 yards every time. Thats what I use every weekend...

[dverna]

3 shot groups do not tell you much. It is possible to get a "good" group with a load that actually shoots poorly. Preliminary testing should be done with 5 shot groups, then go to ten shots when you want to know what the load will really do.

If you need two different burn rates to achieve your accuracy goals, that is a small price to pay. Bear in mind that the 2200 fps load is going to be your hunting load and a pound of powder is going to last a long time. Your "mid-range" needs can be accomplished with a lesser charge of a faster powder. I suspect the mid-range load will be the one you use the most so geargnasher has given you some good advice that will save you money.

Load development is fun but can be frustrating. It becomes a balance of your goals and how much effort is justified to achieve them. If your current 25 gr. load will put 10 shots into an 1 1/2" at 100 yards you have a great 1600 fps load - be happy. Changing powders (if that is all you need to do) to get to 2200 fps is a very small "inconvenience".

Don

[Centaur 1]

A lot of good advise from everyone, I really appreciate the help. I'm just a little confused about which direction to go next. When I chose to start with 4895 it was because I read that out of the slower powders, it has a good reputation about how well it works with cast boolits. I'm checking the burn rate comparison chart and 4895, blc-2, varget, and 748 are all next to each other. I think that from everyone is saying, a slower powder gives a gentler push which is beneficial for lead, but too slow and I won't be able to get enough powder in the cartridge to achieve full speed.

dverna, I started with 5 of each load, I used 1 or 2 to get on target then shot 3 for group. I was just trying to find what range of powder to concentrate on the next time. I had shot 60 rounds in less than 2 hours and my barrel was getting pretty hot. Next time out I'll try 10 each of 23, 23.5,24, 24.5, 25, 25.5 and 26 grains now that I know my rifle likes loads in that range. Maybe I should even try some of the heavier loads in a cold barrel and see what happens.

[cbrick]

I think that from everyone is saying, a slower powder gives a gentler push which is beneficial for lead, but too slow and I won't be able to get enough powder in the cartridge to achieve full speed.

That's how I go about it. Gear gave you some very sound advice. A simple way to say it is, Use as slow a powder that will get you to or close to your your velocity goal.

A bit of a side step from that for me is in my 30-30 using RCBS 150 Gr. FP - SAECO #311 160 Gr. and RCBS 180 Gr. FP and SR 4759.

I haven't looked for the mouse fart loads you tried and I haven't tried to push the envelope with it either. I started out looking for 1850 - 1900 fps for 200 meter silhouette targets.

It's been some successful testing so far. All with standard large rifle primer, no fillers, Winchester brass, all testing was with AC CWW +2% tin. No leading with any.

The RCBS 150 at 2140 fps @ 19.0 Gr., (should test 18.5 Gr. and re-group, just don't need 2100+)
SAECO 311 160 at 1920 fps @ 18.5 Gr. (accurate)
RCBS 180 at 1880 fps @ 19.0 Gr. (needs tweeking and grouping)

None of these loads are max but again, I wasn't looking for max. The SAECO 311 load is surprising accurate but I wouldn't call it a hunting bullet, too small of a meplat for my tastes.

Felt recoil is mild compared to similair velocity bullets/loads with powders such as 3031.

Just something here for the grey matter to chew on. There are numerous choices and ways to go with the 30-30, many work very well.

Rick

[leadman]

I use H4895 in my 30-30 Contender carbine with the Lyman 311041, at 172grs. I assume you are installing a gas check on this boolit?
I would load as long an overall length as you can as this will help. Also let your rifle cool some between strings.
If your rifle has micro-groove rifling you may have to harden up your alloy some. I had a Marlin 30-30 with micro-groove and had to add some linotype to my WW alloy if I wanted to shoot full velocity loads in it.
If you want to know how hard your alloy is you can send me a couple boolits and I will test them for you.

[Larry Gibson]

Well let's see; accuracy started going around 28 gr of 4895 which was probably pushing around 2000 fps+/-. Marlins in 30-30 have 10" twists. Pushing 2000 fps is pushing 144,000 RPM. You have come up against the RPM threshold with that combination of componants. I would suggest working with slower powders that have the loading density to lesson the accelleration. Win 748 and Hodgdon LeveRevolution and H380 come to mind. Another consideration is that that particular bullet is not a good enough design to push above 1950 fps, 140,000 RPM, especially if the barrel of your rifle is a 20" one.

Larry Gibson

BTW; Older Winchester M94s (pre Jap made ones) have 12" twist barrels and can do better, upwards of 22,00+ fps, before coming up to that level of RPM.

[plainsman456]

Has anyone tried IMR-3031 in their 30-30 with this weight of boolit?
I have used WIN 748 and 2400 so far and they surprised me with their accuracy.

[docone31]

Iffen it were me, as I have had great results with paper patched .30 cal loads,
I would go with paper patching.
I would size the patched loads to .309 and go with start load data for jacketed loads.
That is the size I do my -06, and 7.62 loads.

[geargnasher]

Dang, Larry, ain't that axe sharp yet? :kidding::brokenima:dung_hits_fan::popcorn:

I maintain that he's just reached the point where one of the components being used has reached it's point of diminishing returns, probably the alloy or the initial pressure building too fast. My .30-06 will shoot a 170-grain boolit quite well to at least 2300 fps with a 22" barrel, and it has the same twist rate as Centaur's Marlin.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Has anyone tried IMR-3031 in their 30-30 with this weight of boolit?
I have used WIN 748 and 2400 so far and they surprised me with their accuracy.

Yep. All I used with J-words, but it was never quite as accurate with cast as 748, 4198, and RX7 in my two guns using cast boolits. A good powder, though, YMMV.

Gear

[BABore]

Has anyone tried IMR-3031 in their 30-30 with this weight of boolit?
I have used WIN 748 and 2400 so far and they surprised me with their accuracy.

I use 3031 along with the 311041 for my 30-30 load. I'm running about 1.5 to 2.0 grains below maximum Lyman 48th data for a 180 gr. jacketed bullet. This load has worked out well in two different Marlin 30-30's. One was a Micro-Groove and the other an original Ballard rifled. Boolits were sized to the fired case mouth ID and above groove diameter. 50/50 WW-Pb alloy water dropped for 20-22 bhn and lubed with MML. Boolits seated to engrave into throat and rifling.

This is only from my experience and in no way meant as any disrespect to RanchDog. I have never been able to drive a TL grooved or modified TL grooved boolit to as high a velocity as a boolit with normal driving bands with any kind of accuracy. I've tried them with both LLA and conventional lube. Best accuracy has always been a couple hundred fps short of where a normal design will peak. IMO the bearing surface (not length) is the problem.

[Larry Gibson]

Dang, Larry, ain't that axe sharp yet? :kidding::brokenima:dung_hits_fan::popcorn:

I maintain that he's just reached the point where one of the components being used has reached it's point of diminishing returns, probably the alloy or the initial pressure building too fast. My .30-06 will shoot a 170-grain boolit quite well to at least 2300 fps with a 22" barrel, and it has the same twist rate as Centaur's Marlin.

Gear

Gear

Maintain what you will but like so many others Centaur 1 has come up to the RPM threshold of 140,000 RPM and after accuracy went south. Coincidence? But if so there sure is a lot of that "coincidence" isn't there. If you note I gave him some advice on how to proceed beyond the threshold. I have numerous 10" twists that I have pushed the RPM threshold upwards with. Many others have done the same. It is not difficult but it take knowledge and the correct type of bullet and other componants to do it with. The RPM threshold is not a "limit" as you apparently still think it is. It is not as it can be pushed higher as you've done.

However, as BABore also mentions as I did, the design of that bullet may limit it to below the RPM threshold of 140,000 RPM for best accuracy regardless of other measures taken to push it to higher velocity with accuracy. I have pretty much the same bullet only mine is a 150 gr. I have not been successful with maintaining accuracy over 1900 fps in any cartridge with 9.5 to 10" twists regardless of the cartridge or other componants used. In 12" twists I can push it to 2000 fps and maintain accuracy but above that it is not consistent. Next to a long nosed pointy cast bullet that design is the hardest to maintain any accuracy with at higher velocities. Design of the bullet does have a lot to do with it:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[Centaur 1]

Well let's see; accuracy started going around 28 gr of 4895 which was probably pushing around 2000 fps+/-. Marlins in 30-30 have 10" twists. Pushing 2000 fps is pushing 144,000 RPM. You have come up against the RPM threshold with that combination of componants. I would suggest working with slower powders that have the loading density to lesson the accelleration. Win 748 and Hodgdon LeveRevolution and H380 come to mind. Another consideration is that that particular bullet is not a good enough design to push above 1950 fps, 140,000 RPM, especially if the barrel of your rifle is a 20" one.

Larry Gibson

BTW; Older Winchester M94s (pre Jap made ones) have 12" twist barrels and can do better, upwards of 22,00+ fps, before coming up to that level of RPM.

My rifle is a Marlin 336SS with a 20" barrel, and 10" twist rifling. I see where a chrony would be a big help. There's not much loading data for the 30-30 with slow powders and cast boolits so I have to assume how fast they're going. If 28 gr of 4895 is giving me 2K, that's faster than I thought. I was going on some quickload data that says 25.9 gr = 1600 fps, and 35.6 gr = 2253 fps. On the other hand Realguns.com data says 22 gr = 1612 fps, so I'm really just guessing at my speed.

leadman, yes I'm using Hornady gas check, I might take you up on your offer after a little more testing. Thanx.

[Centaur 1]

I'm looking some more at jacketed data, I know that it's not the same but I'm assuming that it might be in the ball park. The Hodgdon web site lists 29.8 gr imr4895 at 1938 fps with a 170 gr bullet. My boolits weigh 173gr with lube and check. That's getting right at the 140,000 rpm's that Larry was talking about. 30 grains was as fast as I could go before my group size disappeared, it was 3.3" but by then my barrel was too hot to touch since I didn't have the time needed to let it cool. I'm going to try starting there with a cold barrel and see what happens. I really appreciate the time that y'all are taking to help me with this.

[Larry Gibson]

Centaur 1

I also doubt the 28 gr load was 2000 fps from the 20" barrel. It is close to that from 24" barrels. That's without a dacron filler. With the filler (1/3 gr) the velocities are a bit higher, especially with 26 - 29 gr of 4895. Also the flavor of 4895 can make a bit of a difference.

Larry Gibson

[Jech]

Centaur, I have a Marlin 336SS in 30-30 that had a short throat much like you describe. For plinking rounds, I found that an OAL of 2.432" slightly engraved the bullet but it greatly improved my standard deviations from the 55-65fps range to 25-35fps. RanchDog's plain-base TLC311-165-RF at 2.432" charged with 7.3gr/Unique gives me right around 1200fps and 8.0gr gives 1370fps. My alloy is not optimal yet so beyond that velocity, accuracy takes a nosedive.

Using a gas checked version of the bullet, 30.8gr/W748 lit with a magnum primer again at the 2.432" OAL is pushing 2,000-2,050fps from my barrel. This is my go-to "full power" load as it has shown itself to be very accurate. 1.5-2" groups are the norm with a scope, 3" groups if I'm using my '67 336 Texan which has Williams peep sights.

[Char-Gar]

I have fired thousands of cast bullet loads through various 30-30 rifles. They are a natural combination. I stick with powders that have been around for a long time and which I have worked with for many years. I don't get any surprises this way and consistent good results.

For loads up to 1.7K fps, I use 4227, 4759 or 2400. They all do just fine. When I go higher I uses 3031 a couple of grains down from top end Lyman charges. The velocity of these loads is at or near factory ammo speed. 3031 and 4895 are very close in speed and application and while the charge weights don't interchange, they both give excellent results in the 30-30.

With the right alloy and a gas check cast bullets can be shot at full factory ammo velocities and the same or better accuracy. I use good old Lyman No 2 for these loads. Air cooled WW do just fine for the lower velocity stuff. If you are a hunter a cast bullet from the 30-30 is just as effective at 1.6 - 1.7K fps as higher velocity stuff. Put an ACWW 160-190 bullet of good design, at 1.6K fps into the right place on a deer and you will have a dead deer.

I am certain there are other and more recent powders that do just as well, but I see not reason to change what has worked for me for 50 years. I am a shooter by nature and not a tinkerer or experimenter. I load to shoot and not shoot to load.

[geargnasher]

Gear

Maintain what you will but like so many others Centaur 1 has come up to the RPM threshold of 140,000 RPM and after accuracy went south. Coincidence? But if so there sure is a lot of that "coincidence" isn't there. If you note I gave him some advice on how to proceed beyond the threshold. I have numerous 10" twists that I have pushed the RPM threshold upwards with. Many others have done the same. It is not difficult but it take knowledge and the correct type of bullet and other componants to do it with. The RPM threshold is not a "limit" as you apparently still think it is. It is not as it can be pushed higher as you've done.

However, as BABore also mentions as I did, the design of that bullet may limit it to below the RPM threshold of 140,000 RPM for best accuracy regardless of other measures taken to push it to higher velocity with accuracy. I have pretty much the same bullet only mine is a 150 gr. I have not been successful with maintaining accuracy over 1900 fps in any cartridge with 9.5 to 10" twists regardless of the cartridge or other componants used. In 12" twists I can push it to 2000 fps and maintain accuracy but above that it is not consistent. Next to a long nosed pointy cast bullet that design is the hardest to maintain any accuracy with at higher velocities. Design of the bullet does have a lot to do with it:drinks:

Larry Gibson

I love jerkin' yer chain, Larry! Don't confuse me with certain other recalcitrant and argumentative personalities you may have encountered in the past, I think your RPM threshold theory is compelling. I know for a fact that I have to do special things to get any gun I have to shoot straight past about 130k rpm with cast.

As has been pointed out, Centaur is dealing with fairly soft boolits with small bearing surface due to the TL grooves, and that is naturally going to have velocity limit relative to lots of things, including your RPM theory. He could go faster with what he has if he used RX7 and some compacting, granular filler, and used .32 Winny brass sized down to .30-30 so he could benefit from a tighter loaded neck diameter, but that's the hard and potentially dangerous way IMO. Water-quenched 50/50 and a boolit with real lube grooves pushed with 35 grains of 748 and Federal Standard Large Rifle primers would probably do much better, maybe even getting to 2.2k fps with some decent accuracy.

Gear

[Larry Gibson]

Not problem Gear, just wanted Centaur to know what he was coming up against. Sometimes not understanding that causes a lot of frustration trying to figure it out. As usual we're on the same page.

Larry Gibson

[Centaur 1]

I'm just glad that I'm not the only one who overthinks every aspect of what I'm doing. Some think it's frustrating, but as long as my findings adhere to the laws of nature and don't give crazy illogical results, I find all of this fun.

Gear, since you have the same design but with standard lube grooves, lets do a little experiment. I measured a RD boolit with a gas check installed. It is sized to .310", and I loaded one long so that I can see where the rifling starts to engrave the nose. Total length is .930". From the tip to where the rifling touches is .265". That meens that .665", or 71.5% of the total length interacts with the bore. I then measure each lube groove, crimp groove, and the gap that's next to the gas check. Total groove width is .186", which gives me .479" of bearing surface, or 51.5% of the total length touches the bore. The only other boolit that I have to compare it with is the Lee 150gr fn, and it's total bearing surface equals only 39.9%. Do me a favor and measure one of yours and see just how much different the amount of bearing surface is.

I can tell already that I'm so anal that I'm going to need a hardness tester before too long. I really don't think that my boolits are that soft. When they are air cooled, I can bend them back and forth with pliers and when it finally breaks the edges look more like they're sheared than broken. After I heat treated them it will bend some then break, the edges are fairly straight and it look grainy and dull. When I water quench this alloy, there's virtually no bending before the boolit breaks with an audible snap. The heat treated boolits will break straight across the crimp groove, but the water quenched ones break differently. One side will have a concave suface and the other is convex. The other test I used was the hammer blow test using a 3lb sledge hammer. The softer air cooled ones can be hammered flat. The heat treated ones, which are the ones I shot, would start to flatten, but they'd mostly go flying out from under the hammer. The water quenched ones would break in half and go flying in two directions at once. Brinnel hardness??? :veryconfu If anyone has a conversion chart let me know. Of course if I had a tester I would have just bored you with numbers instead of my desciption. :-D

I must be pretty close to achieving a good hunting round. The two powders that keep getting brought up, RX7 and 748, one is faster and one is slower than imr4895, and the one constant answer I've gotten was to use a slow powder. I'm thinking about pan lubing some and seeing if I can get them to go a little faster before the groups open up.

[Centaur 1]

Come on Gear, don't let this one die just yet. Measure up one of yours for bearing surface so that I can compare. I think that I'm going to try lubing with lithi-bee, and see how they group.

[geargnasher]

Man, I've been covered up with ASE Recerts, L1A test, and work's been crazy this week. I'll get back to you ...

Gear