Range report: 9mm Mak

[Jal5]

Been reloading jacketed rounds for this CZ82 for the past year with good results using Bullseye and trimmed down Win brass for 9mm Luger.

Tried the Lee 95gr. RN boolit with Bullseye, CCi 500 primer, and trimmed Win brass. 3.3 gr. BE was the best 5 shot group at 2.42" but none of these test loads shot to POA, they were pretty consistently left low. This 2.42 group was stringing too top to bottom. This from a sandbag hold. My reloads with 95 gr. Berrys plated bullets shot all 10 into a 3" target spot at 7 yds off a sandbag. Using 3.6 gr of Bulleseye.

any thoughts about the difference in POI?

Should I try a different powder for the cast boolits?

Thanks.

Joe

[TCLouis]

3.3 gr. BE . . . 3.6 gr. BE

Big effect in that little case.

I have yet to figure a catch system so I am willing to shoot my formed brass in the 82.

Like all Russki gear, it extracts and EJECTS spent cases.

[Jal5]

Yeah they do fling the brass. I use a tarp suspended from the roof of the shooting stall down to the concrete floor, that manages to block 99% from running off! It is a pain trimming down the 9x19 even though I have a load of them to use.

what about other powders or is the Bullseye optimal? I tried test loads with 3.2-3.5 gr. BE. The 2nd best group was 2.57" plus one flyer (my bad) and this one did group very close to the POA without stringing @ 3.5 gr.

My next trial will be both 3.3 and 3.5 shooting 10 of each and see how they shoot.

[Fishman]

I can't help with other powders. I've only ever used bullseye with the lee boolit with great results in a couple of Makarovs. Might want to look at your crimp?

[watkibe]

I was walking on a dirt country road near my house and found a cartridge case on the ground. The headstamp said "9x18". All I knew was that put it between the 9x19 and the 380. Cartridges of the World informed me that this was the 9mm Ultra, an experimental cartridge used in a few Sig pistols for evaluation by some European police agency. Yikes ! What is THAT doing out here in the American boondocks ?
After several deep breaths, I correctly identified it as the 9mm Makarov ! Whew ! Lots of surplus pistols around, OK, that makes more sense.
Sorry, I know this is unresponsive to your powder question, but I figured this is the only 9mm Mak thread I have ever seen, and it's my big chance to tell my little story, lol. Thanks !

[Jal5]

Anyone else have any suggestions on 9x18 boolits?

[Rocky Raab]

Ahem. Point your Firefox browser HERE (http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/Makarov.htm)

[acl864]

I've had excellent results with 3.5 gr. Bullseye and the Lee bullet in my CZ-82. My buddy swears by W-231/HP-38 under the same bullet. I've also used Universal Clays (very similar burn characteristics to Unique) with jacketed bullets with excellent results.

[JIMinPHX]

I was walking on a dirt country road near my house and found a cartridge case on the ground. The headstamp said "9x18". All I knew was that put it between the 9x19 and the 380. Cartridges of the World informed me that this was the 9mm Ultra, an experimental cartridge used in a few Sig pistols for evaluation by some European police agency. Yikes ! What is THAT doing out here in the American boondocks ?

I ran into a Walther PP Super at a range in Miami that took the 9x18 ultra. Apparently those things had been sold in reasonable quantities on the surplus market in Canada a few decades ago & this one had moved to the states with a snow bird.

The barrel was only marked 9x18. When the woman who was shooting that gun ran out of ammo, I offered her some of my 9x18 mak ammo, thinking that a European gun marked 9x18 must be a mak. That gun promptly locked up tighter than a crab's hind quarters (which are water tight). The slide would not go into battery. I later picked up a piece of her brass & figured out what had happened. A wooden dowel & a soft mallet got things straightened out, but left me a little more cautious about 9x18 barrel markings.

As for shooting Maks, I have found that 3 grains of BE in starline brass keeps me hitting golf balls at 25 feet at point of aim in two different pocket guns. Those things aren't massive power houses, but they are a lot of fun & can be surprisingly accurate. For the price, I think that the surplus guns in that caliber are a great bargain.

[JIMinPHX]

Anyone else have any suggestions on 9x18 boolits?

I just use the Lee mold. Leadman has a flat point mold in that caliber from a group buy. A lot of people seem to like his boolits.

[JIMinPHX]

One word of caution, unless that CZ of yours is a locked breach gun, stay away from the Wolf 120-grain HP ammo. It's loaded to a higher speed than the standard 90-95 grain ball ammo on the market & less that 1 magazine full was enough to damage a blowback gun to the point where it would not fire anymore.

[HATCH]

mihec has a makarov mold
http://www.mp-molds.com/shopping/pgm-more_information.php?id=10

I got it. Its nice.
It functions just fine in both my east german and my bulgy mak.

[BCB]

I have one of the Russian Makarov’s—‘bout $125 a dozen years ago!!!...

A dang basic handgun that is crudely constructed, but about a functional as many that cost more. It is simple to break down and clean…

Regardless, I shoot the Lee boolit also (Lee 365-95-1R), among others, and brass made from 9mm—sized and trimmed. (Too much work as far as I am concerned)…

I have used AA#5, AA#7, Green Dot, HP-38, Red Dot, Scot 453, Unique, and WC-540.

The best accuracy was with AA#7, Unique and WC-540…

Velocities run from 823 fps to 960 fps.

Accuracy was not too bad at 25 feet. The sights and trigger are at best, terrible!!!...

Good-luck…BCB

[Jal5]

thanks for the ideas guys. I will try with the BE for another test then try Unique which I have plenty of. 231 has been mentioned by a lot of people so I may try that too if not satisfied with what I already have on hand.

Anyone have this problem with that Lee mold-
had 4 or 5 of those boolits get stuck up in the seater die today when I was trying to crimp the rounds. They seated fine in the case but got jammed in the seater when I adjusted it to crimp. Didn't happen on any of the plated bullets I regularly use. I am thinking I may have a wide variation in the dia. of the boolits and I am trying to reload them as cast. A real pain and I was tired so at that point I gave up and will go back to it tomorrow night.

[JIMinPHX]

Anyone have this problem with that Lee mold-
had 4 or 5 of those boolits get stuck up in the seater die today when I was trying to crimp the rounds. They seated fine in the case but got jammed in the seater when I adjusted it to crimp. Didn't happen on any of the plated bullets I regularly use.

I have 1 set of Lee dies that does that to me if I run boolits that are more than .004" above nominal diameter.

[JIMinPHX]

Ahem. Point your Firefox browser HERE (http://www.reloadingroom.com/index_files/Makarov.htm)

That's a nice write up Rocky. Thanks for taking the time to put that together.

[Three44s]

"keeps me hitting golf balls"


I'm going to point one of my Brother-in-Laws to this post the next time he hassles me for also using them!

He's an avid golfer and he really chaffs me about it ........

As to the original OP's question: When I have a low POI ....... I resort to a slower powder and/or a heavier bullet.

Three 44s

[noylj]

Have you tried AA2 or even AA5?
POI is affected by bullet weight and velocity (time in barrel as gun begins to recoil).
Is the gun rifled with standard lands/grooves or polygonal?

[9.3X62AL]

I've used the RCBS cast RN 100 grain boolit since I first got my East German Makarov in 1991. I've used Bullseye, WW-231, Red Dot, and Unique with about equal results. The pistol's best loads run that casting at 1000-1025 FPS, and reflect its generic load data that calls for "380 ACP data + 10%". OEM ballistics show 95 grain RN/FMJ running 1115 FPS.

That kind of velocity is at the upper end of suitability for blowback pistol actions. Such loads buck and bark pretty strongly. Running them 100 FPS slower decreases recoil and enhances controllability while providing a meaningful increase over typical 380 ACP ballistics. The Makarov pistol is little more than a Walther PP on steroids, and its slide/recoil spring must be hand-retracted to be appreciated. MONDO strong.

[JIMinPHX]

My experience is pretty close to what Al said. I've clocked factory 9-mak ammo at around 1050fps. My 3-gr of BE loads give me around 900fps with gentle recoil & good accuracy. The felt recoil difference between 900 & 1050fps is substantial.

You just about need a crow bar to overcome the springs behind the slides & triggers on most of the maks.

The .380 factory ammo that I've tested ran around 800-950fps depending on brand. American Eagle was the hottest. PMC Bronze Line was the slowest.

[Jal5]

noylj-
it is polygonal rifling in the cz82
I have not tried anything other than BE so far. Will try Unique since I have that already.

JIMinPhx-
I think mine maybe inconsistency in that first cast with the mold resulting in some bigger boolit diameters. I will check on them.

Joe

[hades]

First off I need to say that this place is AWESOME. I've learned a lot from some of you guys including 9.3x62AL who gave me some great advice through facebook cast bullets. This is my first post, I know getting wordy.

I've got a CZ82 and have been reloading for it since I bought it last year. With the Lee 100gr RN I've got some great groups,
Here are the loads that have worked for me so far
3.7 gr Unique
3.2 gr Bullseye
3.1 gr Clays

Shooting these loads off a stack of 5 gal. buckets and beanbags under the hands at 10 yds can consistantly give me a 1 3/4" 5 shot group with 2 or 3 touching using the Unique load with Clays opening up a little bit and Bullseye out to 2 1/2".
All bullets are visually inspected for any culls and tumble lubed with no sizing.
OAL is 0.945 which I've found in My CZ82 to be about max length without the bullet slamming into the lands.

Recording all my data in a nice table and measuring out to 1/8" to get the best loads possible. I also bought a .366 hollow point MP mold, my first high dollar mold, and it is a work of pure perfection. Haven't shot to many or them yet but the unique looks promising.

This is a hard caliber to find much data for but I wouldn't go much higher than 3.8 unique. The other two are probably a decent amount below max.

Let me kn

[Jal5]

Thanks for sharing your data, I want to try the Unique for my cz 82. The 3.5 gr BE I use with that Lee boolit is a little hot, I may look at lowering it a bit and see how it shoots. The biggest problem is how it flings the brass! Joe

[hedgehorn]

watching this one for the Mak

[hades]

Jal5
I think I went up the 3.4 or 3.5 with the bullseye and it did seem hot but also my groups opened up. So with bullseye 3.2 is my load. But try the unique it is much better for me than the bullseye.
When I bought my CZ last year I did a little google research on the gun and one thing someone somewhere recommended is to replace the recoil spring with a stiffer one. I bought a 19lb one and you can get a 21lb one also. I think stock is 15 or 16. This helped out some in how far the brass gets thrown. I bought mine from Wolff. Only regrets is not buying a 19 and a 21 just to see how the 21 would be since the springs are like $8 and shipping $7.

[Jal5]

I plan to replace that spring also, tired of searching for my brass! Joe

[mpmarty]

be aware that increasing the spring tension imparts more wear on the pistol also. There is a fine line between the shock of going to full recoil with a weak spring and the shock of going into battery with a strong spring. Look at what arrests the forward motion of the slide and decide how much battering that part can withstand.

[390ish]

I have had best results with AA2 out of a polish p64