Dacron woes

[Tatume]

Hi Folks,

Slowly I am gaining some experience with Dacron filler, and so far none has been good. My most recent experiment was side by side tests of the 9.3x74R cartridge in a Ruger No. 1. Both loads used a 0.368” LBT LCFN GC bullet at 270 gr, cast of wheel weights. They were loaded with 30.0 gr IMR-3031. The cartridges without filler ran 1450 fps. Those with filler would not chamber (which I didn’t realize until I drove to the range, having checked only the non-filler cartridges while in my shop). I foolishly forced a couple into the chamber and they made 1550 fps, but the rest I couldn’t even force in.

When I returned home I measured the unfired cartridges, and could find no dimension out of the ordinary. Bullets were re-seated deeper, but still would not chamber. I tried resizing the loaded cartridges with the stem removed from the FL die, to no avail. Then when I re-seated even deeper, and also resized, the cartridges chambered freely. Fortunately the loads are very light, and I can at least reclaim my expensive cases by firing the remaining cartridges.

The only thing I can figure is that the Dacron must have been forced between the bullets and neck walls. I put about 3-4 gr of Dacron in the case and pushed it down until it was even with the case mouth. My reasoning was that the bullet would push it the rest of the way, and I would be assured of a column of Dacron that filled the space from the powder to the bullet base.

If I try Dacron filler in this cartridge again, I will push the filler down until it just clears the neck. That’s a big “if” though, as I may abandon the material altogether.

Take care, Tom

[dnepr]

I don't know if Dacron in jammed in the neck would be a problem but I always thought it wouldn't help so I try to push the dacron to the neck shoulder junction . I use some sort of dowel to push it there before I seat the boolit ,

[Tatume]

Thanks Dnepr, that's what I had in mind too.

[The Double D]

The Dacron needs to be compressed into the case not just a tuft pushed down a ways.

[BruceB]

I've used dacron for many years with great satisfaction.

"3-4 grains" of dacron is FAR, FAR too much.

In the huge .416 Rigby case, I use barely ONE grain of dacron with a 55-grain powder charge. It should NOT be tightly compressed. Also, I don't weigh the tufts....just tear off "about the right amount". (Experience helps with this.)

All that's needed is a light fluffy tuft of sufficient density to prevent powder movement...NOT a compacted dense mass. This low-density/low-mass property is the reason that dacron, used in that fashion, can be added to so many loads without having much effect on pressures.

Do some searching on "dacron"...there's enough reading for a month!

[rintinglen]

Bruce speaks wisdom. I use a healthy pinch and push down onto the powder with a peice of dowell. In my 45-70 loads, I haven't found it to make much difference, but in my 30-06 reduced loads, groups shrank noticeably.

[The Double D]

Read Charlie Dell for wisdom and an understanding of how this work....sooner a later a tuft wil cause a problem..

[Tatume]

If a tuft of Dacron is pushed down onto the powder the barrel can be ruined. There must be sufficient material to completely fill the air space, and some compression is required.

[Nrut]

My reasoning was that the bullet would push it the rest of the way, and I would be assured of a column of Dacron that filled the space from the powder to the bullet base.
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>>>Push the Dacron down until it touches the powder..
Don't guess..
There should also be enough Dacron in the neck of the case so when you seat the boolit it compresses the Dacron to insure that there is no space between the boolit and the powder no filled with Dacron..
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>>>If I try Dacron filler in this cartridge again, I will push the filler down until it just clears the neck. That’s a big “if” though, as I may abandon the material altogether.
Take care, Tom
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Tom,
Nope, that wouldn't insure that the Dacron will be touching the powder..
Your Dacron loaded rounds "have" to be larger than your non Dacron loaded rounds to cause them not to chamber..
Personally when I use Dacron in straight or nearly straight walled cases I use the Nitro for Black formula..
Otherwise I find a powder that doesn't need Dacron to perform..

Good Luck..

[Nrut]

If a tuft of Dacron is pushed down onto the powder the barrel can be ruined.

That doesn't make sense..
Also it's the chamber that can be ruined by ringing it..

There must be sufficient material to completely fill the air space, and some compression is required.



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[Tatume]

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The chamber is part of the barrel. Ring the chamber, replace the barrel, no?

[Tatume]

Nope, that wouldn't insure that the Dacron will be touching the powder.

Good Luck.

As I said, the column of Dacron extends from the powder to the bullet base and is compressed.

Thanks, Tom

[Nrut]

The chamber is part of the barrel. Ring the chamber, replace the barrel, no?
No..
Set the barrel back and rechamber to the same round or go to a larger dia. round..

The part that doesn't make sense to me in your post #8 is that you are saying two different things:

1. If a tuft of Dacron is pushed down onto the powder the barrel can be ruined.
2. There must be sufficient material to completely fill the air space, and some compression is required.

[geargnasher]

I'll bet you have woes. But don't blame the Dacron. Where did you get the idea that you needed more than a grain of the stuff???

Dacron isn't supposed to be used the way that you'd use cereal grain or granular filler. I've never seen any published information that suggested more than just a very small amount, and none saying to use compression.

There's a "sticky" here somewhere with some golden information from people who know what they're doing and have the test equipment to prove it, the purpose, application, and use of Dacron filler is explained quite well.

It doesn't take much, and it needs to be "fluffed" up or "lofted" to completely fill the space between the powder and the boolit base, you want it to be as airy as possible, not packed down. It will do it's job just fine that way, even finer powders don't migrate through the springy fibers as the Dacron keeps the powder situated in the bottom of the case.

I routinely see 50-200 fps gain when using Dacron, it raises pressure by supporting better ignition and "fooling" the powder into thinking it's in a smaller case.

Gear

[Nrut]

I'll bet you have woes. But don't blame the Dacron. Where did you get the idea that you needed more than a grain of the stuff???

Dacron isn't supposed to be used the way that you'd use cereal grain or granular filler. I've never seen any published information that suggested more than just a very small amount, and none saying to use compression.

You should read "Nitro for Black" articles by Ross Seyfried and Sherman Bell in the "Handloader" and the "Double Gun Journal"..
You can apply the same formula to straight and tapered cases that were never loaded with black powder to begin with, like the 9.3X74R with if you have some black powder to get your measurement from..
Sherman Bell pressure tested his loads in the series of articles "Finding Out for Myself" in DGJ..
Also check out the reloading forum on the NitroExprss.com website..
Very interesting reading especially if you like old single shot and double rifles..

There's a "sticky" here somewhere with some golden information from people who know what they're doing and have the test equipment to prove it, the purpose, application, and use of Dacron filler is explained quite well.

It doesn't take much, and it needs to be "fluffed" up or "lofted" to completely fill the space between the powder and the boolit base, you want it to be as airy as possible, not packed down. It will do it's job just fine that way, even finer powders don't migrate through the springy fibers as the Dacron keeps the powder situated in the bottom of the case.

I routinely see 50-200 fps gain when using Dacron, it raises pressure by supporting better ignition and "fooling" the powder into thinking it's in a smaller case.

Gear


......

[Larry Gibson]

As already noted; way too much dacron. should only use enough to fill the air space. Dacron fillers do not need to be compressed at all. Use enough so the filler stays "fluffy" and just fills the air space. I just push the dacron into the cases below the case mouth and let the bullet push it down on the powder and do any "compression".

Tests with 4759, 5744, 3031 and 4895 powders in my .375 H&H and the 45-70 show anything over 1.5 gr dacron is a detriment to accuracy. Most often 1 gr is sufficient. with smaller case a1/3, 1/2 and 3/4 gr of dacron are quite sufficient. The use of the dacron filler does in crease velocity because it reduces the useable case capacity and increases ignition efficiency.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Here' 4 grains lightly fluffed next a 50 BMG round, I think you are using a little too much!

[The Double D]

I'll bet you have woes. But don't blame the Dacron. Where did you get the idea that you needed more than a grain of the stuff???

Dacron isn't supposed to be used the way that you'd use cereal grain or granular filler. I've never seen any published information that suggested more than just a very small amount, and none saying to use compression.

There's a "sticky" here somewhere with some golden information from people who know what they're doing and have the test equipment to prove it, the purpose, application, and use of Dacron filler is explained quite well.

It doesn't take much, and it needs to be "fluffed" up or "lofted" to completely fill the space between the powder and the boolit base, you want it to be as airy as possible, not packed down. It will do it's job just fine that way, even finer powders don't migrate through the springy fibers as the Dacron keeps the powder situated in the bottom of the case.

I routinely see 50-200 fps gain when using Dacron, it raises pressure by supporting better ignition and "fooling" the powder into thinking it's in a smaller case.

Gear

Read Dells work on the Schuetzen Rifle, Seyfried, Bell and Wright work on the NfB loads they all discuss it in writing.

There is a far difference between a fluffed up tuff and removing the air space. And I also agree that 3 grains in the is far to much, far far to much for the li9ttel cartridges menbtion. You don't need to compress it into a solid mass but you do need to get the air out.

I use 3 grains in my 577/450 but I have a lot off air space. I do weigh every thing that goes in the case. Only makes sense to have everything uniform.

[Larry Gibson]

The Double D

Consider also the difference between a much lighter recoiling load that 30 gr of 3031 has vs that of the much greater mass of powder used in some of the much greater case capacity cartridges mentioned in those writings. This is especially the case where additional cartridges, to the one being fired, are in the second barrel or magazine. if too little dacron the enertia from the recoil adversely affects the "fill" and powder migration may easily occur. I have had this happen, especially if a wad is used instead of a filler. Dacron should also not be used as a wad. It is my opinion that nothing should be used as a wad. I've yet to see definative proof that an appropriate dacron "fluffy" filler has caused any problems, especially "ringing". All of my tests measuring not only velocity and group size but also pressure indicates there can be too much dacron used. I have not found any evidence that a "fluffy" dacron filler causes any problems or inaccuracy if an appropriate powder for the cartridge is used.

Larry Gibson

[The Double D]

The problem with fluffy is that it subjective, Your fluffy and my fluffy could be two different values and that is where folks get in trouble..

Dacron has a long documented history of ringing chambers when not properly used. Dell's work is with light loads and in his work indicated that Dacron was the most likely to cause ringing when not properly used...I think you will find his writings enlightening. you can get his book from ASSRA.

A measured amount is quantitative and repeatable, fluffy is a guess..

And yes to much can be used .

[BOOM BOOM]

HI,
Dacron/Kapok fillers in my 1,000's of 7mm/06 cases with pistol powders & rifle powders have all been 1gr. or less, not compressed. No rings.
:Fire::Fire:

[1Shirt]

BruceB hit it right on the head! Way-way-way to much fill. I use about 1/2-1 grain with reduced cast loads for ctgs in the 308 vol and up. I cut squares from the material, and I pull it apart for a "fluffy" insert. I push it down as far as the base of the neck. I have been using fill now for over 30 years and never had a problem. Frankly don't see how you can get the 3-4 grains that were listed in the case over the powder.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Larry Gibson]

The Double D

The problem with fluffy is that it subjective, Your fluffy and my fluffy could be two different values and that is where folks get in trouble..

There is a 'sticky" titled "Fillers" on another forum at this site. You will get a good definition or idea of what is meant by "fluffy". Dacron does not need to be compressed, it just needs to fill the air space. Hence the use of the word "filler".

Dacron has a long documented history of ringing chambers when not properly used. Dell's work is with light loads and in his work indicated that Dacron was the most likely to cause ringing when not properly used...I think you will find his writings enlightening. you can get his book from ASSRA.

Many of us here beg to differ with that. There is no "long and documented history". Only the mention in that book and a few articles using it as reference where dacron and other materials are used as a "wad". There is a big difference between a wad and a filler.

What you do find here is a very long and very well documented successful use of dacron as a filler with cast bullets. You quantify yourself with the words "when not used properly". Any number of things with the use of firearms "when not used properly" can cause damage or problems. The key is to use it properly not stop using it.

I might add that many here have used dacron as a wad for many years without any of the problems ascribed to it.

A measured amount is quantitative and repeatable, fluffy is a guess.

I suspect this to be the crux of your comments? Many of us have conducted extensive tests regarding the "measurement" of dacron fillers. It has been universely found that an exact amout in weight say of 1 gr vs varying weights of 3/4 - 1 1/4 gr makes no difference in accuracy, velocity variations or pressure variations. The key to using dacron as a filler is to use enough so it fills the airspace and is not overly compressed. An exact amount is not necessary.....that is not a guess either but fact based on considerable testing and use over 40 years.

If you have different data to demonstrate otherwise from extensive testing I would ask you to provide it for us to see or at least for me to see as i am always interested in such.

And yes to much can be used .

That is the point.

Larry Gibson

[Cap'n Morgan]

I was under the impression "ringing" occurs as a result of fast burning powders and trapped airspace - like Bulls Eye, Unique or BP? In lack of Dracon I use cotton wool as filler in my 45-70 loads with good results, but I only use it for medium and slower powders.

[mpmarty]

I quit using dacron in my pet 45/70 loads. I just got tired of messing with it during the loading process. I've settled on a load of 15gr of Unique behind a 378gr cast boolit. Shoots great in my Marlin with frequent cloverleaf groups at 75 yards at my backyard range.

[Larry Gibson]

Marty

That's a good load and a filler is not needed with a Unique load such as yours, as you know.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

I was under the impression "ringing" occurs as a result of fast burning powders and trapped airspace - like Bulls Eye, Unique or BP? In lack of Dracon I use cotton wool as filler in my 45-70 loads with good results, but I only use it for medium and slower powders.

All about using the filler correctly and not using it as a wad. I don't use a filler nor a wad with the faster powders as with the correct fast burning powder the wad or filler is not needed.

Larry Gibson

[Mavrick]

I'm a user of Dacron filler, and use it is several, different-sized cases, from .25/35 to .375/.348 Imp (about the same as a .45/70 but necked down a bit).
The fast, pistol-powders may not need fillers, but I like the consistency of velocity that I get with it, even up through 3031, 4895, or 4064, depending on the cartridge used.
It doesn't take much. It vanishes early in the firing cycle if you only use a grain or so. I used to weigh it but it takes so little, it was a waste of time.
Have fun,
Gene

[Tatume]

Hi Folks,

I discovered that my problem was not related to the filler at all. It was purely coincidence that I found the problem with cartridges having filler and not in cartridges without the filler. Later the same issue occurred in cartridges without the filler, and I was able to diagnose and solve the problem.

Responces have centered on the amount of filler used, and I shall take this advice into consideration. The 9.3x74R is a very long cartridge, yet I believe I can reduce the filler to about 1.5 gr (half of what I used previously) and still completely fill the air space.

Thanks, Tom

[The Double D]

Larry,


I think you and I are closer to agreement than you think; especially about the difference between a wad and filler. I have been preaching the same sermon you preach about the difference for years.


I think the fellows over at the American Single Shot Rifle Association and the Schuetzen shooters in that group might take great exception to your out of hand dismissal of their experience with light loads and chamber ringing. Your casual dismissal of their work and especially the work of Dell gives me the impression that you have never really studied their work. If you had, you would find that what you have discovered is confirmed by their findings…or in a chicken or egg analogy, you work confirms what they have been saying for years. You can always learn from the work of others.

Here is a link to the ASSRA webpage http://www.assra.com/ Click on the link to the bookshelf and go to books for sale to get a copy of Dells book. Great reading lots of good information on shooting cast bullets and single shot rifles.

I think our only disagreement is in the definition of a tuft or fluffy. There is no absolute definition in these terms your tuft and my fluff are two different things. How is a new shooter to know if his tuft is tuft enough or fluffy enough? When does short become tall?


I know what works for me and I think we are both talking about the same thing. Get the air out!!


I weigh everything that goes in the case. I do this for consistency, uniformity and repeatability. It is a technique I learned year ago when I first started reloading. It is why I weigh bullets before loading. In my old rimfire silhouette shooting days, I even weighed .22LR rounds. Uniformity, consistency and repeatability.


Sorry for stepping on your turf.

[Larry Gibson]

Not stepping on my turf at all. I have read Dell's book but it's been a while. As I recall (maybe because it's where I mostly disagreed) his cautions as to the use of dacron was with wads and faster burning powders? I also advise against that useage. Perhaps I will obtain another copy and reread it.

Also if you read the "sticky" titled "Fillers" (http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=109280) you'll find a description of my own use and others. "Tuft" & "fluffy" are descrptive terms only and in my post in that stickey you will find I recommend sizes in grain weight. The point we both correctly make here is "get the air out" or as I state; fill the air pocket which is why it is a "filler" and not a "wad". BTW; "wad" is also not a correct description as in shotgun wads....they are really fillers aren't they? Especially the older fiber wads.

Any ways my tests over the years have cosistently demonstrated that the use of a correct dacron filler over a medium or slow burning powder (for the case capacity) of less than 80 - 85% loading density increases ignition consistency and most often gives better accuracy. The use of the filler does increase velocity, increases psi and can push velocity to high for accuracy and psi too far for a specific cartridge (45-70 to be held to TD psi's for example).

Also my extensive testing has consistently demonstrated that compacting dacron into a pretty much solid wad filling the air space is many times not that detrimental to accuracy but always gives less accuracy than with a correct amount of dacron filler. A recent test with the 45-70 using 25 gr 5744 under a 413 gr cast bullet with a 3/4 gr dacron filler gave 1.5" accuracy (100 yards) at 1226 fps and 22,400 psi(M43). Using a 2.5 gr compressed dacron filler over the same load gave 2.3" accuracy at 1240 fps with 26,700 psi(M43). A lot of difference? NO there's not, both are still acceptable TD loads. However when stretching the range to 200 and 300 yards the better load with the 3/4 gr dacron filler accuracy is much better to use.

A comparable load example with a double rifle might not make any difference if the shooting is restricted to a left/right group at 100 yards or under. Such loads with heavily compacted dacron fillers do work well enough there as Seyfried and others use them. Such short range "accuracy" is not benificial to those who do shoot such loads at longer ranges. BTW; I've left a round loaded with the 3/4 gr dacron filler in the magazine (Siamese Mauser in 45-70) for 10 shots fired and then pulled it apart to check for pwder migration from the recoil. There was none. The "fluffy" of the "tuft" did it's job (just my attempt at humor). I agree that we are in agreement.

Sometimes a long discussion like this between those who do agree is very helpful to those who are not knowledgeable....that's how they learn the "why" of doing something like using a dacron filler of the correct amount:2_high5:

BTW; I also weight .22LR cartridges, swage them amd reform the noses, all for more consistency as you mention:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[The Double D]

I think if you get Dell's book you will particularly enjoy the portion where he predictably and purposely creates a ringed chamber in one shot.

[303Guy]

I use cotton wool as filler in my 45-70 loads with good results,I like cotton wool as a filler. But, it can be made to start fires! Sometimes (most often, I would think) it does not even scorch but I have produced little balls of burning cottonwool. It's actually quite difficult to find the combination that does make it burn.