Sloppy .45 Colt chambers----SOLVED.

[geargnasher]

Hey gang, if you ever wanted the solution to this common problem, I have found it.

The answer is to use boxer-primed 7.62X54R brass. The ancient and venerable rimmed Russian cartridge has a .064" rim thickness, only .004" thicker than standard .45 Colt, and it cas thick case walls. All that is needed is to whack it off to 1.285", turn down the rim to .512", turn the base of the head to fit your chamber (mine took only about .004" total diameter reduction, from the rim and fading up .200" or so), and open up the shellholder to accept the new case which doesn't have a rebated groove like most modern .45 Colt does. The resulting case looks like an old balloon-head case, plus has a hint of the bevel on the breech face of the cartridge. You can size this case to fit any .45 Colt chamber, and it is still thick enough to hold even a .452" boolit in a .482" chamber with only .0015" clearance around the "neck" of the case. If a person had a tighter chamber, they could always neck turn or ream the brass to fit. With my setup, it is perfect with the "neck" at full thickness.

Why you ask? Here's my reason: I'm trying to get my H&R Classic Carbine to shoot straight, which is quite a task with the rather generous throat dimensions and the oversized chamber. I found that the Lee 457-340-RF makes a perfect bore-riding, throat-fitting boolit for this gun when seated so the first band is against the sharp bevel of the base of the lands, and this takes groups from 6" at 50 yards (with 250-ish grain anything) to 2-1/2" with the 340, sized .453". Still one big problem, though. Even "neck sizing" the Starline .45 Colt brass, I still had a loaded neck diameter of .475" in a .482" chamber. That's SEVEN THOUSANDTHS neck clearance, even using fireformed brass to center in the chamber and a snug bore-rider nose to center the boolit in the bore. Whaddaya think happens when the fireworks goes off? The last two driving bands of the boolit have a lot of room to go sideways before getting extruded into the bore. Ask a silhouette revolver shooter how much difference a cylinder throat .007" larger than boolit size makes to a group. Or how much accuracy difference .007" out-of-time makes. I'm looking forward to seeing how much correcting the neck clearance will help my accuracy, Ill bet it's a bunch.

The Russian brass has some other advantages as well, smaller case volume, thicker head, large rifle primer, handy for using Reloader 7 Ruger-level loads in the H&R. In a revolver there might be issues with the thicker primer cups, but if a person neglected to clean the primer pockets a LP primer should work fine.

Something else to ponder here, those of you stuck with one of the dual-purpose .45 Colt/.410 barrels in a Contender, Judge, or Handi rifle, there is enough brass left on the Russian case to stretch the boolit pretty close to the rifling, especially if you cut the neck off, annealed the shoulder slightly, and opened it up straight. Just a thought in case somebody wanted to try it.

Now I need some boxer-primed Russian brass and a Lee .45/70 FL sizer die whacked off to .45 Colt length, and a .45 Colt trim die. Does it ever end?

Gear

[Three44s]

I am in the process of trying a .45/410 barrel right now in the TC and I have lots of Russian cases (new) ........ you've got my head BUZZIN'

Thanks

Three 44s

[geargnasher]

New would be best, all I had was a couple of 1F range pickups that had been fired in sloppy Mosin chambers (I assume, pretty good bulge in them). You might not have to turn down the heads with new stuff, only the rims. Let us know.

Gear

[x101airborne]

Gear.
As always an informative post with USEFUL information. I have been using 303brit cases in my 44 mag for crimp over full length shot shells so I see your necessity on this one. BTW, any chance you could make up one of those milk jug forming dies and sell to me? Always wanted to try your shot cups but have no access to make a former. Thanks!

[jerry_from_ct]

I always been interested in alternate case forming, great way to salvage old brass or make up obsolete calibers.

7.62 x 54 is great for making 8 x 50/56r
.308 into 45 acp
.223 into 7.62 x 25

plenty of examples.

[jerry_from_ct]

I am in the process of trying a .45/410 barrel right now in the TC and I have lots of Russian cases (new) ........ you've got my head BUZZIN'

Thanks

Three 44s

I considered that, but having read some of the feedback elsewhere on it thought it probably wasn't a good idea.
The extra case length invites charges w/ a smaller volume and possible detonation issues, off course if one was to exclusively use Trail Boss powder only that would most likely be fine, due to it's bulkiness.
A standard T/C 45 colt charge in an extended case may have issues, T/C 45-70 acceptable charges in that case would most likely be the safest.

My .02 cents
Be safe...............

[geargnasher]

Jerry, that's why God invented Dacron. Trail Boss isn't bulky enough to fill even half a regular .45 Colt case at max charge. If you use Unique I doubt there would be any issue at all, even without filler. I can put ten grains of Unique in a .30-'06 load and it barely fills 1/3 of the case, no problems there, either.

Gear

[Doby45]

No pics? it never happened. ;) You KNOW better Gear..

[btroj]

No pics? it never happened. ;) You KNOW better Gear..

Yeah, where are the pics Gear? You know how we are around here, we want pics.

Brad

[geargnasher]

Gear.
As always an informative post with USEFUL information. I have been using 303brit cases in my 44 mag for crimp over full length shot shells so I see your necessity on this one. BTW, any chance you could make up one of those milk jug forming dies and sell to me? Always wanted to try your shot cups but have no access to make a former. Thanks!

If you're making .44 Magnum shotshells, just use cushionless .410 wads cut to cylinder length after seating against the overpowder wad. Two wraps of cellophane tape should keep the petals together, seal the end with epoxy. Also, apply a bead of airplane glue inside the bellmouth of the case, and roll-crimp to hold the shotcup in.

Gear

[geargnasher]

Oh Geez, here we go!

Far left: Impact slug of the chamber.
Second from left: Dummy round with FL sized .45 Colt case, used to set seat/crimp die. Note the special wrinkle I cast into the boolit nose.
Next: First attempt to convert Russian brass, this was a Wolf Berdan case, very thick aluminum walls. Note the hourglassing from being FL sized in .45 Colt die, and groove cut for shellholder above rim.
Far right: Converted brass case, needs fireforming to blow out the body from the sizing die, I overdid it a bit although the last 1/2" of the case head is unsized. This is where cut-off .45-2.1 or 2.4 dies would work well for FL sizer dies.

Gear

[ktw]

Why not just load bullets sized large enough to fit your fire-formed 45 Colt brass? 457122, 457191 and the Lee 457-340-RF appear to be tailor made for this application. Most of these allow you to size in the range of 457-460, as necessary. .457 fits my 45 colt lever gun's fire-formed brass.

I understand the fun of finding a different way to skin the cat, but it seems to me that finding a bullet to fit would be a lot less work than modifying a cartridge case to fit.

-ktw

[geargnasher]

KTW, I'm not particularly inclined to try to fire .459", 15-bhn boolits through a .4515" groove-diameter barrel, especially with a case full of Reloader 7 behind it. There are limits to the practicality of things.

Gear

[RobS]

Oh Geez, here we go!

Far left: Impact slug of the chamber.
Second from left: Dummy round with FL sized .45 Colt case, used to set seat/crimp die. Note the special wrinkle I cast into the boolit nose.Next: First attempt to convert Russian brass, this was a Wolf Berdan case, very thick aluminum walls. Note the hourglassing from being FL sized in .45 Colt die, and groove cut for shellholder above rim.
Far right: Converted brass case, needs fireforming to blow out the body from the sizing die, I overdid it a bit although the last 1/2" of the case head is unsized. This is where cut-off .45-2.1 or 2.4 dies would work well for FL sizer dies.

Gear

Now we know you are full of B.S. :lol:

[geargnasher]

Slow learner, eh Rob? :kidding:

That's a spiral wrinkle, it deflects air in a spiral to help keep the rpm up at longer ranges. ;) The one in the pic is for a left-hand twist, like my H&R has. It wouldn't work so well in a Winchester, it would act more like a brake on the spin. I also have some ocean-front property......

Gear

[Doby45]

Is it near Arizona? I have been wanting to get some of that action for a while now..

[RobS]

The trick would be to duplicate the exact wrinkle multiple times for multiple super spin boolits..........then I'll confirm you as a caster of all traits. :drinks:

[btroj]

Nice work Gear. Luckily my Marlin, while it has a big chamber, shoots well.
Sad that a guy has to do this much work to get a solution to a problem that should not exist.

Let us k ow if they improve accuracy or increase velocity. Will be interesting to see.

Brad

[Piedmont]

I was wondering how good a job H&R did on these. Now we know.

We have a member and his name escapes me who had a pretty ingenious solution to a poor dimensional job on a foreign single shot in .45 Colt. He turned it into a .45-60. That would get rid of everything H&R did wrong. Your barrel might be a bit tight for it, but maybe if one specified a tight reamer he could then use bullets around .454 or .455".

The .45-60 is a great cartridge for what most of us do with rifles.

[Catshooter]

I was wondering how good a job H&R did on these. Now we know.

Well no, now we know how good a job they did on Gear's rifle. Mine has a fine chamber and needs no help. They aren't all like his (or mine, for that matter).

That's pretty ingenious Gear, I like it.

I've tried twice to sell my new Lapua x54r brass here but it's expensive stuff. Now I'm kinda glad it didn't go. My NEF .45 Colt doesn't need this fix, but I am a big fan of the caliber. Ya never know, might just come in Handi.

Thanks for the fix.


Cat

[geargnasher]

I was wondering how good a job H&R did on these. Now we know.

We have a member and his name escapes me who had a pretty ingenious solution to a poor dimensional job on a foreign single shot in .45 Colt. He turned it into a .45-60. That would get rid of everything H&R did wrong. Your barrel might be a bit tight for it, but maybe if one specified a tight reamer he could then use bullets around .454 or .455".

The .45-60 is a great cartridge for what most of us do with rifles.

Actually, it's SAAMI that screwed the pooch when they were attempting to standardize this cartridge. H&R, like most other manufacturers, are just doing what they're told. The modern .45 Colt, meaning most guns made after WWII and loaded with smokeless powder, have .451" groove diameters instead of the old .454"-ish grooves of yesteryear. I don't know the particulars, but chambers were spec'd large on these modern guns so they could still chamber and fire older ammo loaded with the big boolits. Unfortunately, it stuck. Dick Casull tried to fix it in his guns, specifying .4775" chambers, and the .460 S&W Magnum has a .478" chamber spec and, undoubtably, thicker-walled brass. With a .451" jacketed bullet, the case only needs to be 12.5 thousandths thick around the boolit to give a .001" chamber clearance.

I think H&R did a fine job on this rifle, but it's typical of standard chambers. It's .482" at the front and .484" at the rear. Spec is .480". Even if it was .480" it wouldn't be nearly close enough for my likes, and the groups show it. I have a Ruger New Vaquero that has .490" chambers. Brass fired in it looks like an anaconda that swallowed Rosie. I also have a pair of Cimmaron 1872 Open Tops, and they have wonderful, .475" chambers and .452" throats, .451" grooved barrels, and group .4525" boolits very, very well. The cylinders on the Open Tops are so small that the chambers nearly cut through the locking notches, so they made the holes as small as possible. I think some common sense was ruling at Uberti when they did that, somebody said "hey, all the ammo is less than .475" loaded, why make the chambers .480"?

Gear

[nicholst55]

Actually, it's SAAMI that screwed the pooch when they were attempting to standardize this cartridge. H&R, like most other manufacturers, are just doing what they're told. The modern .45 Colt, meaning most guns made after WWII and loaded with smokeless powder, have .451" groove diameters instead of the old .454"-ish grooves of yesteryear. I don't know the particulars, but chambers were spec'd large on these modern guns so they could still chamber and fire older ammo loaded with the big boolits. Unfortunately, it stuck. Dick Casull tried to fix it in his guns, specifying .4775" chambers, and the .460 S&W Magnum has a .478" chamber spec and, undoubtably, thicker-walled brass. With a .451" jacketed bullet, the case only needs to be 12.5 thousandths thick around the boolit to give a .001" chamber clearance.

I think H&R did a fine job on this rifle, but it's typical of standard chambers. It's .482" at the front and .484" at the rear. Spec is .480". Even if it was .480" it wouldn't be nearly close enough for my likes, and the groups show it. I have a Ruger New Vaquero that has .490" chambers. Brass fired in it looks like an anaconda that swallowed Rosie. I also have a pair of Cimmaron 1872 Open Tops, and they have wonderful, .475" chambers and .452" throats, .451" grooved barrels, and group .4525" boolits very, very well. The cylinders on the Open Tops are so small that the chambers nearly cut through the locking notches, so they made the holes as small as possible. I think some common sense was ruling at Uberti when they did that, somebody said "hey, all the ammo is less than .475" loaded, why make the chambers .480"?

Gear

While I've been told that the only way to get a tight Ruger .45 Colt chamber is to start with a .44 Mag cylinder and rechamber it with a minimum dimension reamer, I have encountered one Ruger .45 Colt with reasonably tight chambers. I happen to own it, too - an older 5.5" stainless Redhawk. The chambers run right at .478".

[Piedmont]

Actually, it's SAAMI that screwed the pooch when they were attempting to standardize this cartridge. H&R, like most other manufacturers, are just doing what they're told. The modern .45 Colt, meaning most guns made after WWII and loaded with smokeless powder, have .451" groove diameters instead of the old .454"-ish grooves of yesteryear. I don't know the particulars, but chambers were spec'd large on these modern guns so they could still chamber and fire older ammo loaded with the big boolits. Unfortunately, it stuck. Dick Casull tried to fix it in his guns, specifying .4775" chambers, and the .460 S&W Magnum has a .478" chamber spec and, undoubtably, thicker-walled brass. With a .451" jacketed bullet, the case only needs to be 12.5 thousandths thick around the boolit to give a .001" chamber clearance.

I think H&R did a fine job on this rifle, but it's typical of standard chambers. It's .482" at the front and .484" at the rear. Spec is .480". Even if it was .480" it wouldn't be nearly close enough for my likes, and the groups show it. I have a Ruger New Vaquero that has .490" chambers. Brass fired in it looks like an anaconda that swallowed Rosie. I also have a pair of Cimmaron 1872 Open Tops, and they have wonderful, .475" chambers and .452" throats, .451" grooved barrels, and group .4525" boolits very, very well. The cylinders on the Open Tops are so small that the chambers nearly cut through the locking notches, so they made the holes as small as possible. I think some common sense was ruling at Uberti when they did that, somebody said "hey, all the ammo is less than .475" loaded, why make the chambers .480"?

Gear

Actually I was addressing the photo of your loaded rounds. Looks like you have to seat your bullets out pretty far. Dan at Mountain Molds called that a "toilet bowl" throat when referencing his .357 Marlin. It is my understanding that revolver chambers are set up this way and when you take that same reamer and a funnel, or toilet bowl, throat it is no longer such a great idea when you want to get accuracy from a rifle. Look at an impact slug from typical .45-70 barrel and compare to your .45 Colt and you will see what I mean. This is probably the main reason it is hard to get accuracy from revolver chamberings in rifles.

I believe the .44-40 reamers are set up differently and there are .44-40 rifles that really shoot.

[geargnasher]

Well, look at the chamber slug on the far left, does that tell the story?

The rather generous throat is the whole reason I'm using the 340 grainer. When I first purchased this gun, it was to satisfy my want for a companion carbine to my fleet of revolvers, and double as a short-range meatgetter. Problem is, even my Ruger NV will outshoot this gun at 25 yards from a rest with pistol ammo. So I threw in the towel and decided to make a mini-sharps out of it. Something about lemons and lemonade. I don't know anyone who's really tried to make a heavy hitter out of the .45 Colt quite like I'm doing here, but I'd like to hear from anyone who's got some experience here. The setup of this gun's throat makes loading heavy-for-caliber boolits possible, and the normally too-large case volume of the .45 Colt now becomes a pretty decent volume for Trapdoor 45/70 energy levels with medium-fast rifle powders. Like most of my projects, this one got started one way and then proceded out of hand until it has become quite the monster.

A member here has very kindly put a few .460 S&W Magnum cases in the mail for me, I'm going to investigate case wall thickness and hopefully it will be good enough to use without buying and modifying any more Russian brass, but I suspect I'll be making some to compare accuracy-wise, now that I have a good solution.

Gear

[ktw]

The rather generous throat is the whole reason I'm using the 340 grainer. When I first purchased this gun, it was to satisfy my want for a companion carbine to my fleet of revolvers, and double as a short-range meatgetter. Problem is, even my Ruger NV will outshoot this gun at 25 yards from a rest with pistol ammo. So I threw in the towel and decided to make a mini-sharps out of it. Something about lemons and lemonade. I don't know anyone who's really tried to make a heavy hitter out of the .45 Colt quite like I'm doing here, but I'd like to hear from anyone who's got some experience here. The setup of this gun's throat makes loading heavy-for-caliber boolits possible, and the normally too-large case volume of the .45 Colt now becomes a pretty decent volume for Trapdoor 45/70 energy levels with medium-fast rifle powders.

This was a thread from a while back on Shooters Forum about using Lyman 457122-HP in 45 Colt carbines/rifles. For all of the reasons you are trying to address.

http://shootersforum.com/showthread.htm?t=22882

My carbine is a Winchester 94. It shoots most jacketed bullets and 18+ BHN gas checked bullets in normal 45 Colt diameters well. I never had any success with 10-15 BHN plain based bullets (what I really wanted to shoot) until I started loading the 300-340 gr 45-70 designs sized at fire-formed case diameters. Now I'm a happy camper. I normally use H110 for this application.

-ktw

[geargnasher]

Thanks, KTW, a feast of good information.

Gear

[Piedmont]

Gear, I went and reread your first post and I am not seeing the groove diameter of your rifle barrel. What is it? I would aproach this by loading ever fatter bullets rather than thicker brass because you are still going to have the toilet bowl throat. Why not try .454, .455 and maybe even larger with that heavy bullet? Combine that with sizing the case only about half way so the fireformed brass fits the chamber more closely at the back.

This way the barrel throat is more filled (width, not just length), the back of the chamber is more filled, and the front of the chamber is more filled because the bullet is fatter. Better alignment all the way around, or am I missing something?

[geargnasher]

I mentioned the groove diameter in post #13, .4515". In my opening post, paragraph 3, I pointed out that I'm only "neck sizing" the fireformed brass, meaning only sizing the part that actually holds the boolit, which isn't very much in this instance.

Your point about filling the toilet bowlwith a larger diameter boolit is a good one, but I'm using .453" boolits as it is, and that gives me .475" loaded neck diameter in a .482" chamber. To maintain .0015" total diameter difference, I would need a boolit measuring .4595"with the Starline .45 Colt brass. I don't really want to force a boolit to downsize eight thousandths here. Even if it didn't create excessive chamber pressures, it is likely to distort the boolit so much that accuracy might be lost anyway.

Gear

[ktw]

Even if it didn't create excessive chamber pressures, it is likely to distort the boolit so much that accuracy might be lost anyway.

You'll never know until you try it. ;-)

I found these this spring while walking out to the 300 yard line. They are snow caught bullets from my 45 Colt Carbine, loaded at .457 and shot through a .452 groove diameter bore. The one at the far right is unfired for reference.

I was surprised at how little distortion I was getting from either the bore sizing or the use of H110 with a plain based bullet. The only form of distortion I can see is a very small nib where a land exits a bearing surface boundary. If I had sized them to 453 before loading they wouldn't have produced anywhere near as good of a group on the target as these do.

I have tried these oven heat treated in an attempt to increase neck tension without sizing down the bullet, but the vast majority have been shot as ACWW, lubed with NRA 50-50 at .457 over 21.5 H110/CCI350/moderate neck tension+crimp/seated out to touch the lands.

The chamber is also a bit long. I can get marginally better accuracy by triming 454C brass down to actual chamber length but my rebounding hammer doesn't care for the small rifle primers, particularly in cold weather, and I haven't gotten around to addressing that issue yet.

http://i57.photobucket.com/albums/g232/ktwna/reloading/45c-cayoot-recovered.jpg

-ktw

[9.3X62AL]

No 45 Colt rifles in the stable here, but I do have a Rooger BisHawk that has typical sloppy chambers. I tried "neck-sizing" fired brass--limiting the tungsten carbide sizer's work to just the upper 1/3 of the case body. This works for about 3 loadings with 1873-level loads before the cases won't chamber easily, and reduces flyers markedly. One firing with Ruger-level loads, and they need full-length sizing.

Truth to tell, my RCBS T/C sizer undersizes the fired casings, as do many of their T/C sizers. This aggravates an already less-than-ideal condition present in the revolver, and reduces case life markedly. The real solution is a custom sizer die that sizes the fired cases sufficiently to enable chambering, PERIOD. It would be great if my .452" expander spud got a bit of engagement when run through the sized cases, but that isn't an absolute necessity. I'm tired of the "Coke-bottled" ammo aspect provided by the stock RCBS die sets in this caliber.

[Piedmont]

I mentioned the groove diameter in post #13, .4515". In my opening post, paragraph 3, I pointed out that I'm only "neck sizing" the fireformed brass, meaning only sizing the part that actually holds the boolit, which isn't very much in this instance.

Your point about filling the toilet bowlwith a larger diameter boolit is a good one, but I'm using .453" boolits as it is, and that gives me .475" loaded neck diameter in a .482" chamber. To maintain .0015" total diameter difference, I would need a boolit measuring .4595"with the Starline .45 Colt brass. I don't really want to force a boolit to downsize eight thousandths here. Even if it didn't create excessive chamber pressures, it is likely to distort the boolit so much that accuracy might be lost anyway.

Gear

Oh, shoot! There goes my reading comprehension grade! I have had a couple of leveraction pistol caliber rifles and read about this stuff for a long time, and also coontemplated building a long-barrel single shot rifle in a "pistol" caliber to run subsonically for at least 15 years. Last year I seriously contemplated buying one of these little .45 Colt carbines. If you went the .45-60 route with a good reamer, all of your problems would be gone, except your bullet would be oversize for the barrel (probably not a problem at all).

As I understand, it the only "pistol" caliber rounds that bypass the throat problems are .38-40 and .44-40, because they were rifle calibers first. I have about decided when/if I do my custom rebore single shot it will be in .44-40 or .45 AR to avoid these problems. Of course the AR/ACP will be anywhere from .451-455" in a staight-sided throat, with no "bowl" at all.

Good luck. Let us all know what ends up working best for you.

[ktw]

I'm tired of the "Coke-bottled" ammo aspect provided by the stock RCBS die sets in this caliber.

I have 3 different sets.

Lyman AA carbide sizes .003 larger than the RCBS carbide.
Lyman 310 MR sizes .010 larger than the RCBS carbide.

I'd also like to find a more generously sized size die. I have considered honing out a spare 310 MR die but just haven't gotten around to it yet.

-ktw

[JRR]

9.3,
There is a very simple solution for you. Order a RCBS non-carbide sizer. It is steel so case lube is necessary. The die has a taper that matches the chamber of the Ruger. Starline cases come from the factory straight and therefor sloppy. After once firing, than resize with the steel, tapered sizer. I have gotten at least six ruger level loads doing this.
Jeff

[geargnasher]

The top section of my Lyman .45/90 sizer will do nicely when the bottom half is cut off....

Gear

[Wally]

9.3,
There is a very simple solution for you. Order a RCBS non-carbide sizer. It is steel so case lube is necessary. The die has a taper that matches the chamber of the Ruger. Starline cases come from the factory straight and therefor sloppy. After once firing, than resize with the steel, tapered sizer. I have gotten at least six ruger level loads doing this.
Jeff

I obtained one and found that the steel sizer die does not size the base of the cartridge as much as the RCBS carbide sizer die does. One does have to clean the cases carefully and lube them. just like sizing a CF rifle cartridge....

[9.3X62AL]

OK--I'll give that a show, folks. I lube every fifth or sixth case that goes through a T/C sizer anyway, I'm not real sold on their utility after 20+ years of use. I've stopped using the T/C die entirely in 9mm, and gone back to the steel sizer.