when i grow up i want to be a mold maker

[jballs918]

well guys alot of you know that im one of the younger guys on this forum. im also in the airforce. i just went over 11 years in nov. now you ask what does this have to do with this post. pretty simple, im seriously considering starting a small business when i retire. i will be 39 when i retire and i will be drawing a retirement at about 2k a month. well this means that i need some more income. i have seen alot of you guys talk about how hard it is to find a good mold maker. well i was wondering a few things.

1. how much room would be required to set up a production shop. i will most likely retire somewhere close to arkansas. so i was wondering what would be needed for the building.

2. what kind of equipment and tools woud be needed. i know that this is on how the molds are made. i have done some reading but it looks like the cherry cutting method would be good. i know there is a ton of over stuff. and if anyone know about cad stuff few free chime in.

3. next is how to learn. i most likely have to find a machinist program at a college.

well i look forward to see what you guys think

jason

[felix]

Believe it or not, University of Arkansas at Fort Smith has an excellent, very excellent, trade school division designed, built, and supported by Baldor Electric to the hilt. A multi-million dollar affair with the very latest electronics, personal computers, embedded computers, full CNC equipment of the latest and greatest. You want CAD? How about umteengazzilion number of different courses? Taught day and night! ... felix

[jballs918]

ok maybe not cad, but to learn how to put what you guys got for diagrams and make them does that make any sense

[nighthunter]

Jballs ...
Good for you buddy. I remember not being able to wait till I was 12 years old so I could get my first hunting license. Then I couldn't wait to be 16 so I could get my drivers license. Then I couldn't wait to be 21 so I could do whatever adults did. Hell ............. Now I'm 55 and I don't know what I want to be when I grow up.
Nighthunter

[montana_charlie]

Well, jballs, you might consider taking a trip to Salt Lake to visit Steve Fotou at Victory Molds. The business is for sale (at this time) and I'm sure he has every tool you would ever need.

The trip would be 'informative' for you in giving you an idea of what you'd be getting into...what problems are associated with being successful...and how much it might cost to get into the business.

There is also the possibility that you could become a 'silent partner' in the operation...which would keep it going until you are ready to buy him out...at which time he could become your 'mentor'.

You can find his address (and everything) at http://www.victorymolds.com/
CM

[Red River Rick]

ok maybe not cad, but to learn how to put what you guys got for diagrams and make them does that make any sense

Jason, why not CAD?

It almost seemed like that word scared you. CAD/CAM is the way now. Now-a-days most machining is done via C.N.C. equipment and programed with CAM software. Learning how to use a good CAD/CAM program definately won't hurt.

Accuracy starts with the drawings and progresses from there, machine, tooling, operator. You can't beat the accuracy of a good quality CAD/CAM program. Getting what you actually want and not something that looks like what you want is the difference.

I've seen it to often, somebody brings in a CAD drawing (file) and says that this is what he wants. But when you start checking the dimensions, after loading his file onto my system, you find that most of them are not exact. Line's do not intersect, arcs & radius are approx., and so-forth. Like I said, it may look good. If you take a cheap drawing to someone whom you want to grind you a cherry, and suppose he's using a C.N.C. Tool & Cutter grinder, when he plugs those dimesions into his machine/computer, that's what you'll get. And hopefully, that's what you wanted.

Yes, there still is conventional machining, that's how I learned my trade. If your wanting to set up your own small shop, then a small conventional milling machine would be perfect for cherry cutting your molds. A lathe is must, saw, drill press, beer fridge, tooling for all the above, material, etc, will also be needed. Opp's, I forgot to mention one important item "MONEY".

I've been a journeyman Tool & Die Maker/Mold Maker by trade for almost 25 years and have been running C.N.C. equipment since 89'. Basically making the part that makes the parts for company like Boeing, Bombardier, Rolls-Royce, 3-M, etc.

Bullet designer I'm not, Tool & Die Maker, I am. My love for "HUNTING/SHOOTING/RELOADING" had a lot to do with my choice of career changes, why not, this way you make your own stuff, bullet molds, guns, sizing dies, reloading dies, presses and list never ends.

You won't regret it. Good Luck.


RRR

[montana_charlie]

A lathe is must, saw, drill press, beer fridge, tooling for all the above,
Uhh...Rick,
I'm wondering about the 'tooling' required for that beer fridge. Would that be a cold chisel?
CM

[Red River Rick]

Yes, with a tap on ice.

RRR

[dltaskey]

Hah, and I thought it would be a church key, either the cheap model on a string or the deluxe with the magnet on the back!

[montana_charlie]

Yes, with a tap on ice.
Now that's tooling to 'die' for...

[jballs918]

ok guys the last day has shed spme light on a few things for me. first off i dont htink that i want to run a big mold shop. im not out for volume per say. so with that, i have looked at alot of cnc machines that where way over what i was thinking about. in price and ability. im looking i guess at a more maybe custom type thing. where we are talking maybe 100 molds a month something like that. not a super production like lee or anything like that. im looking to make more quality then quanity. i know how poeple are with there molds that they get done. so i guess the first thing i need to start on is the equipment. as in what would be a good brand and what equipment sould i look into. thanks guys

[Pat I.]

100 moulds a month ain't exactly what I'd call a small mould shop. Figure a 100 bucks apiece minimum for a custom mould and you'll be able to retire to Hawaii in no time.

[Scrounger]

ok guys the last day has shed spme light on a few things for me. first off i dont htink that i want to run a big mold shop. im not out for volume per say. so with that, i have looked at alot of cnc machines that where way over what i was thinking about. in price and ability. im looking i guess at a more maybe custom type thing. where we are talking maybe 100 molds a month something like that. not a super production like lee or anything like that. im looking to make more quality then quanity. i know how poeple are with there molds that they get done. so i guess the first thing i need to start on is the equipment. as in what would be a good brand and what equipment sould i look into. thanks guys

Just my 2 cents and I'm not even a machinist. If I were you I wouldn't buy a dang thing right now. I'd stockpile money and maybe buy property where you want to retire to. Science is moving forward so fast that what you buy now will be considered ancient in 15 years. By that time you will need only design your mold or cherry on a computer and push a button to activate a super machine to cut it. Computer controlled maching is already a reality, it can only get better. On the other hand, buying the property now is really going to be cost effective. And be real nice to your wife; I hate to mention that D word but if it rouses its ugly head, kiss your plans goodbye... I don't want to induce negative thoughts, I hope it works out perfect for you. I have this saying: "A man needs something to take to bed with him at night, a woman, a bottle, or a dream". A dream is the best of the three.

[AZ-Stew]

jballs,

I'd recommend that you spend some time hanging out at the machine shop at your base. Get to know the guys and have them help you learn some of the basics. If there is a community colleges in your area, see about some night classes in machine shop. Looks like you have about 8-9 years to come up the learning curve on machining. Start now, you'll need all the time you can spend toward learning the details that will help you produce a quality product.

There are 2- and 3-dimensional CAD software packages. I'd recommend that you learn a good 3-D modeling package, such as SolidWorks (http://www.solidworks.com/). You create a 3-D model of the part you want and the software will produce a 2-D paper drawing of it. I do this for a living, and there's so much I could say about it, but there's not the space for it here. Compared to similar software packages, SolidWorks is easy to learn and extremely capable. You'll need an add-on software package to convert your CAD model to the code that a CNC machine uses.

You've asked a big question. I hope my rather short answers will help you get started.

Regards,

Stew

[jballs918]

ok very good point about not buying anything. i have no plans to do this let. this is something that im looking into. i know that i have to do something when i get out, and this is something im really into. i have always loved machining and the process. but i have never learned how to do it. who knows maybe i will just take a few classes and flash this whole idea lol. well guys put the inputs coming so that i can get some more ideas. thanks

[snowman]

Well, I'm gonna chime in.

I'm a machinist by night (and custom fabricator) and a receptionist by day (very odd combination). I actually make more at night than the day job....but have to keep regular work hours or I'll withdraw from society and forget how to speak.

Making a mold is NO small feat. Everything has to be perfect...or close to. My first couple were awful....and I haven't even started doing boolit molds. I made some cannon ball molds for friends. I have just started my first "boolit" mold.

100 molds a month is a lot. That's 4 a day. If you read the Hensley and Gibbs article that was from the American Rifleman magazine....they were producing between 60 and 100 a month....two people. I can tell you right now...if I was making the SAME MOULD over and over again, 4 a day would be no problem...the problem arises when you are making 4 different moulds a day...or even four different moulds a week. Especially if it's one you haven't done before. First you have to cut your cherry, then cut the flutes, then grind it, then harden it, then finish grind it....then you have to have the material stock cut...slot, drill tap, etc. Then you have to make your alignment pins.

There is a lot of work that goes in to them...that's why they cost 60-100/each.

If you dont have background in machining, I'm going suggest the opposite. Buy equipment now. Since you are pretty mobile right now, maybe look at the small 7x10 machines that you can get cheap. They dont have enough horsepower to move out of their own way....but they work, and you'll at least start learning the fundamentals. Cost is around $400, figure at least another $100 for some tooling.

[snowman]

more...

my shop is 900 square feet, and although I would like it to be bigger, I could run manual production machines out of it without a problem.

those 7x10 lathes will hold their value OK...expect to get back about half of what you paid if you Ebay it...maybe it's a good way to learn the fundamentals. I will warn you, they are more frustrating than the "real thing"....but if you learn what you are doing on one of those, a big machine will be intimidating at first, but there will be no stopping you once you make the transistion.

[charger 1]

well guys alot of you know that im one of the younger guys on this forum. im also in the airforce. i just went over 11 years in nov. now you ask what does this have to do with this post. pretty simple, im seriously considering starting a small business when i retire. i will be 39 when i retire and i will be drawing a retirement at about 2k a month. well this means that i need some more income. i have seen alot of you guys talk about how hard it is to find a good mold maker. well i was wondering a few things.

1. how much room would be required to set up a production shop. i will most likely retire somewhere close to arkansas. so i was wondering what would be needed for the building.

2. what kind of equipment and tools woud be needed. i know that this is on how the molds are made. i have done some reading but it looks like the cherry cutting method would be good. i know there is a ton of over stuff. and if anyone know about cad stuff few free chime in.

3. next is how to learn. i most likely have to find a machinist program at a college.

well i look forward to see what you guys think

jason



OK boy, just hold the phone. First of all YOU DONT WAT TO GROW UP!!!!!! trust me its no fun. I tried it and went back. Didnt like it...Seriously son, your pretty grown up for 11. Good for you. If you take a general machinist course try to get atleast some exposure to the tool and die trade. There similar, but the t&d is just a little more like what a surgeon would do and a general machinist is more like what a doctor would do. You'll want that little extra knowledge of why metals do what they do.. All the best to you lad



PS. when you do get to buying, a mill,tracer lathe, and horizontal band saw will either be on your list or dinasaurs in 28 yrs

[carpetman]

charger---jballs 11? I think you missed it --he's been in Air Force 11 years.

[montana_charlie]

maybe 100 molds a month something like that. not a super production like lee or anything like that.I mentioned Steve Fotou at Victory Molds for two reasons.
1. He is not very far from you.
2. He can answer questions (by showing you stuff) that you have never even thought of.

His production is a mere trickle now, because he's only able to work at it part time. But, back when he was going full bore, I'd be surprised if he ever turned out more than 30 moulds in a month.

Red River Rick can correct me if he wishes, but I think there are some things about polishing, heat treating (and stuff I don't even know about) that you are not considering.

Shoot! A well-made sprue plate is a minor work of art, all by itself.
CM

[madcaster]

JBalls918,
THANK YOU SIR for your service!
Great advice here!Another sideline might be in gun parts to the muzzleloading trade,assembling locks and such.
Montana Charlie,
Your byline reminds me of a local saying, "I retired from m yjob,then started farming and had to get 2 more jobs to support my farming habit!"
There are a lot of people buying moulds,and it seems more will,this is a sound future business venture I'd think.
Jeff.

[snowman]

There are a lot of people buying moulds,and it seems more will,this is a sound future business venture I'd think.


Well....not because you want to make money.

Lets say you make 50 molds a month, at 100 each. That's 5,000 gross....now you take out raw materials. Now you are down to 4,900. Now you take out costs of a website, insurance (for shop....no way can you afford liability), capital machinery expenses, consumable tooling, accting fees, heat or AC, electric, etc....probably knocks you down to 3600. Out of that, take 15.3% FICA and Medicare, Now you are down to 3050 before any federal or state taxes are taken out. Based upon 3,600 a month, you are making around $23 an hour gross.

It may seem like good money....but it's a lot of work, and takes one heck of a capital investment......it's not something you do because you want to make money, and as far as sound business venture, I doubt you could get a bank to loan you money on that business plan.

Now...the good side, you'll have a 2,000 pension....you should do just fine, and you'll have plenty of extra money to buy guns with. And the huge bonus, your guns are now a tax deduction! :)

[floodgate]

jballs918:

The BIG thing is, you're thinking ahead! All too many of those who don't, work until sixty-five (or whatever), settle down in front of the TV with a six-pack - and are dead in 18 months. That sure isn't going to happen to YOU - or to any of us here - but it IS a national pattern, and the retirement annuity funds make a fortune off them. Machining - at any level - is a most rewarding activity (ask Buckshot!); and if you're interested in mould making, Montana Charlie's suggestion would be a great way to start. DO IT!

floodgate

[jballs918]

again guys thanks for the tips. i see that as i look more and more into this that there is a bigger pirture involved here. not a problem that is why im starting my homework now. from what you guys say that 30 molds would be a good goal. hell with all the grpup molds that you guys do that along would put most mold companies in business lol. as i look into this more i am more insterested in learning the process and how its done. the gentleman in utah would be a good idea but that is a bit far from me. i would mostly likely have to take leave for that. agian not a problem but i have had my noise chammed in a book so i can make e6. for my plan to work i need to make e7 within the next 5 years. very doable if i get from my can which i have been. different story sorry lol. i wonder if maybe a trip to buckshots place is in order. i think he is closer lol. also to the thing about making muzzleloaders maybe something that i could also look into. but the biggest thing is that i need to know what kind of general big machines i need to get. but im thinking that would come with taking a few classes at the local college. i have alot more to come on this mahauaahahaahauhaah. and thanks agian guys

[Bret4207]

If i was you I'd start hanging out in general machine shops to see if you even like or have a flare for maching work. It's not for everyone.

BTW- we have several very small machine shops in my area that do well on one-off designs and repair work. Guns, and I know this is a shock to some of us, are a luxury type item and the work gets put off for years sometimes. A worn shaft on a combine thats need rebuilding with that plasma spray thingy gets done TODAY. Just a thought.

[montana_charlie]

Jballs,
I was just sitting around thinking of times past when I remembered...

When I had been the Air Force for 15 years, it came to me that I might enjoy being a gunsmith after retirement. With that in mind, I looked at AF career fields that could further my knowledge toward that goal.
It turned out there was an actual 'gunsmith' career field..which I never knew existed...and some other jobs that were closely related.

Whether I could get into that field never became a question because manning was critical in my own...so I couldn't get out of it.

But your situation might be different. If you are in 'personnel', or 'supply', or some field that has more bodies than slots, you might be able to spend the remainder of your AF time doing a job that points to your retired activity.
CM

[Buckshot]

..............jballs918, if you have a creative drive, machining is a good way to use it. I've always been interested in making stuff and was lucky enough to have had a grandfather and a father that were also very handy. While they didn't so much as mentor me as it were, they had all manner of 'stuff' that was very interesting and fun to mess with.

I really became interested enough in machining to actually go out and spend some money on a piece of equipment about 8 years ago. Before that what I used was a 3/8" VSR drill motor clamped in the benchvise. Crude as it sounds, there was a multitude of things you could make that way!

What I bought to start out with I bought without doing any reading or searching for information on. It was miles better then that drill motor in the vise to be sure, but not really what I should have bought. It was a cheap mill-lathe combination. It had power nothing and I couldn't even cut threads on it. But had I done any reading I would have known that and passed it by. But again, I made beau coup stuff with it and count the whole thing as an expensive learning experience.

I finally put the internet to work and got hooked up with the Home Shop Machinist and the Practical Machinists BB's, in addition to individual people's websites. Plus I started reading. Since I have no particular use for the TV and a job that doesn't demand much, I had pleanty of internet and reading time. Best of all I became hooked up with a couple guys who were machinists by career or home shop guys who were hobbyists. Let no one dispise the home hobby machinist, as some of these guys turn out absolute works of art by any definition.

What I ended up falling into was a nice late model (1981) 11"x36" Logan with a hardend bed. The machine had spent a few years turning plastics with it's carriage and leadscrew off, and the rest of the time up against a wall forgotten, so it was pretty much like new. While it is not a big huge lathe, by comparison to some of the imports, it's as heavy as a lot of the 13" jobs. Also important was the fact that it was very well tooled up, and had a L00 spindlenose vs a threaded one.

You can figure that you'll probably spend very easily twice in tooling what the lathe cost. That is, if you plan on doing much of anything:-)

So the secret is to read and to pick the brains of those who've been there and done that. To make bullet moulds you don't need a huge lathe. You should have an accurate one and one capable of about a 10" swing unless you plan on making 10 cavity moulds. The guy (forget his name) making Hoch moulds uses a Hardinge 2nd operation lathe. Obviously the moulds are lathe bored. The lathe is basicly a chucker. Normally the beds aren't real long, but the thing is they're VERY rigid, and VERY heavy for their size and built for accuracy.

If I were going to make bullet moulds I'd cut them on a lathe. The reason I would do that is you do not need to make and maintain cherries. To cut moulds on a lathe you use individual tools. One to cut the ogive and one to cut drive bands. You may have several different tools ground for various ogives and also several cut for common drive band configurations. Grinding these is child's play compared to cutting cherries. In addition to the various individual tools to cut cavities, for short boolit designs you can cut a form tool.

This has the boolits design ground into it. You stick it in the predrilled hole, retract the cross slide and the tool cuts an image of itself into the blocks.

These cutting tools is one of the reasons I believe Dan of Mountain moulds stopped cutting full custom moulds. Buy limiting the designs to those his computer program would allow, he essentially put a limitation on the number of 'spoons' he'd need for the designs.

If I were to cut moulds for a business I would again, cut them on a lathe. Secondly I would equip the lathe with a digital readout. It's just like CNC except YOU crank the handles and you have the plan on a piece of paper and not in a computer's memory bank. If you were going to make a bunch (run) of one design, or several designs over and over, then by all means CNC is the way to go.

Lee is fully CNC'd and that's part of the $100 setup fee for less then 25 moulds. They have a tool grinder who grinds up the tools to cut the cavity called for. Then the tools are loaded in a toolhead (probably rotary) indexed and all set up. Then a guy mashes the green button and the coollant and aluminum chips fly. they pull a mould and check it out to make sure it's okay and then complete the run. Of course they know what their tool life is and other details of the operation that they have to watch for or check on. It's also a quarter million dollar machine.

As was suggested, you can get one of the 7" machines in bed lengths from 10 to 14". They won't hog off a big fat curly blue chip, nor can you smoke a 1/2" bit through a piece of steel, but they do incredibly accurate and intricate work. You CAN also make bullet moulds on them :-). Plus you can lean it up in the closet when you're done. If you want to see what the 7" and 9" lathes can do, do a Google search and merely type in "7x10 lathe" or "9x20 lathe" and see what happens. BTW, the 7" weighs about 70 pounds. The 9" wieghs about 300. My 11" weighs 1100.

...............Buckshot

[HotGuns]

Mold making is tedious ,very tedious.

As usual ,Buckshot gives some great advice.

I would reccomend at least a 12 inch lathe however. Cutting multiple cavity molds with a 4 jaw chuck leaves one jaw sticking out pretty far...and with a 12" swing you'll have a lot more clearance over the cross slide than anything smaller.

One can do some good work with the Asian imports. Although they arent near as heavy duty as American machinery, they are very available and they are fairly cheap. Mold making isnt considered "heavy duty" machine work, so they would be fine for that task.

You can get a very good 12" machine for around 3000$. Of course a good digitial readout and the tooling will add considerable cost to that. You'll also need a milling machine, you can get a used Bridgport for around 3-4000 or spring for a new Asian import for about the same. Again,adding a good digital readout will more than pay for itself in time,effort and frustration.

What the readout will do is give you a reference point from which all other measurments are taken, and this is very critical in mold making.

I feel that your goal is a bit unrealistic. Using manual machines, from start to finish you would be doing great to get 3 a day made. If you use the lathe to bore the blocks, you'll spend alot of time grinding the tool bits, if you use the mill to bore you'll spend a lot of time grinding the cherries.

The equipment could fit in a small shop. There is alot of added costs in tooling and measuring equipment. Mold making does take some experience in the operation of machines. No-one jsut starts out making perfect molds, it comes from years of expereince doing other things.

In the real world, mold makers usually undergo a 4 year apprentiship,to learn the ins and outs of the trade and to get expeireince under the guidance of people that have been doing it their whole lives. Thats not to say that you could'nt do it, but dont expect to be able to just pop a set of blocks in a lathe and expect them to come out perfect on the first time you try it. It takes a reasonable amount of skill,patience and ability and making molds can be condsidered to be somewhat to be more "advanced "in machine shop capabilitys.

In any case, good luck in your endeavors.:drinks:

[PatMarlin]

Buy real estate and learn the business. Start with a fixer upper, rent it. Leverage your way to about 6 or 7 quality places. Wait 15 years and sell em.

You'll be a millionair plus, and then you can start your mold machine shop... :mrgreen:

[carpetman]

It's simple to become a millionaire as a mold maker or any other endeavor. Simply inherit 2 million and you can easily convert that into one million. I have not done it,but I have a sure fire plan that I'd like to try out.

[rebliss]

jballs, if you're looking to start acquiring some tools, start looking into the DRMO. You should be able to access them through whatever base you're at; where are you, anyway, Nellis? Here's a good public-domain website with access to milsurp materials. I've seen some Uber cool stuff on here, from Hummers and Jet Engines, to nice lathes and MWR canoes.
http://www.govliquidation.com/
Good luck to you!

[500bfrman]

Well, jballs, you might consider taking a trip to Salt Lake to visit Steve Fotou at Victory Molds. The business is for sale (at this time) and I'm sure he has every tool you would ever need.

The trip would be 'informative' for you in giving you an idea of what you'd be getting into...what problems are associated with being successful...and how much it might cost to get into the business.

There is also the possibility that you could become a 'silent partner' in the operation...which would keep it going until you are ready to buy him out...at which time he could become your 'mentor'.

You can find his address (and everything) at http://www.victorymolds.com/
CM

if you are serious about making molds. I would strongly reccomend you contact steve. He is a super nice guy and makes the best molds on the face of the earth. use to anyway. I think you would have a hard time learning more from some school or book than steve could teach you.

[500bfrman]

i will be drawing a retirement at about 2k a month. well this means that i need some more income.

jason

I make less than this now:roll: