Brag about your 375 Whelen or Thoughts?

[JesterGrin_1]

Not a bunch of info on this cartridge so I am looking for thoughts on this round and the people that use it? At the very least it may start a good conversation about a cartridge like the others mentioned that is not in the lime light as far as caliber selection for the masses. :)

And yes I might be going nuts lol. :bigsmyl2:

My new Marlin XL-7 in 35 Whelen is in the mail and should if UPS does there part be here near the end of next week.

And I have a Stevens 200 Action slated for a .358 Winchester build.

[Bullshop]

I think you knew I would strike at this cast. I am a true died in the wool 375/06 nut case. I have 4 of them. In my view it is absolutely perfect for where I live and what I hunt.
For someone wanting near 375 H&H performance with much less recoil it fits that bill nicely. All the other praises attributed to well balanced boolit shooters can be piled on as well. My standard hunting load uses a 375gn boolit at 2200 fps and leaves little to be desired in a big game hunting round for shots extending to 300 yards.
Why the 375 H&H round is so popular on this continent and the 375/06 so unpopular is a mystery to me. The latter is in my way of thinking better suited to our game.
Throw in the miser factor in procuring ammo and there is no comparison. When I go scrounging for brass at the local shooting sites (gravel pits) I find once fired 06 brass in no short supply but in contrast scant few 375 H&H.
Forming brass from 06 is not at all difficult but there is a little labor involved in trimming to square up the mouths.
A 35 Whelen has been my constant companion for at least 30 years and I can not put down the 35 version but have to say that since using the 375 version I have a strong preference for the latter.

[JesterGrin_1]

Bullshop I did hope you would chime in and look forward to more information on the 375-06.


Bullshop I would figure in your neck of the woods the 35 Whelen would work well but given the recent story of some little GRIZZLY bears roaming around your house I am sure the extra size of the 375-06 gives you a bit more confidence in doing its job so a little GRIZZLY bear does not decide that you would look great in a mud hole lol.

[Bullshop]

Well if it means anything that night the 35 never got dusted off but the 375 on a pre war Husky was leaning near my bed with three of the aforementioned 375gn loads in the box.
If I remember right they are pushing somewhere near 5000 FPE.
Judging from the fist size hole it plowed through a good sized bull caribou last fall it should let some light in a grizz too I would think.
I should mention that the boolit that did the caribou was a hard cast soft nose. It had 40gn of pure lead in the nose.
When the boolit hit the caribou through the chest both altlers flew off. Mr. Weatherby that is shocking power!

[JesterGrin_1]

Yep it should hurt a Grizz a bit more than a Bee Sting lol. :)

[JesterGrin_1]

Bullshop it looks like you are the only one that shoots the 375-06 lol. Are we NUTS lol. You have them and I am thinking about one lol.

[onceabull]

I try to avoid thinking about the one I sold Dan...Seemed an OK idea at the time,and hard to pass up PROFITS when available...Onceabull

[Euan]

Bullshop it looks like you are the only one that shoots the 375-06 lol. Are we NUTS lol. You have them and I am thinking about one lol.

I made one on a ruger No1 about 20 years ago, and shot it a lot with cast boolits and home made jacketed from 222 & 223 brass. I did it on the 06 Ackley Imp case, as I felt it would have a better shoulder to headspace on. I shot a lot of game with it and liked it a lot. But sadley at a very weak moment I let it go to someone else.
I have sort of compensated a wee bit, as I have done a small Ring 98 mauser to a 9.5x57 on the Ackley version. and it goes very well with cast boolits.
1st pic is loaded 9.5x57 ackely Imp with CBE 376/300 GC loaded to 1940 fps, with 51 grains H4831. as I still have heaps of it. I used to load 55gns into the 375/06 Ack Imp with same boolit for much same speed.
2nd pic is a target shot with the 9.5x57Ack and her sweat load with the cbe 376/300 gc from AC WWs.
I have a spare Ruger No 1a and a 375 barrel in the safe at the present time, that will end up as a 375/06 Ack Imp. and the only way it will leave my possesion will be to my son when I depart this life.
Cheers Euan.

[Bullshop]

Awe quit yer whinin Bill you did the right thing. That one you sold me the Scovill version on the pre 64 mod 70 is now a pre 64 mod 70, 375 H&H and is owned by another fella. Like you said making a profit is never wrong.
Anyway that rifle just would not feed our big 375gn FN design dependably so I was not happy with it.
It was a stepping stone in my learning curve though. I liked it enough that I bought a Scovill reamer but I have never used the reamer. I bought the rifle I am using now on the net. This one is the pre war Husky and it feeds anything just as slick as you please.
It is chambered for the standard 375 Whelen. With this rifle I found that with the heavy boolits I like there is no gain with the shoulder forward Scovill version.
There might be a little with light bullets/boolits but I have not used those.
The other three rifles I have are all Springfield's and all feed equally as well as the Husky.
These are all re bores done by Jess re boring from 30/06. I found this to be about the most practical way to get a 375/06. The re bores done by Jess with the deep cut rifling shoot boolits ever so pleasingly well.
I am so sold on the cartridge I have been getting them to sell from my shop. Selling them here also makes me the sole supply for factory ammo. Not a bad thing for a gun shop.

[zuke]

I have a 35 Whelan, and have heard of the 40 Whelan but this is the first time I've heard of the 375 Whelan.
I'm gonna keep an eye on this thread.

[Bullshop]

Euan
The Ackley would be OK in a single shot like your Ruger but in my mind the standard feeds better from bolt gun. At least that has been my experiance with the 35 Whelen.
Come to think of it I wonder if that may have been the reason the 375 Scovill wouldn't feed from that Mod 70 Win?

[Bullshop]

If considering a 40 cal on an 06 case a better choice over the 400 Whelen would be the 411 Hawk. The Hawk version offers more positive head spacing.

[Three44s]

I'm glad I read this thread. I was under the opinion than one needed to go with a .375 AI to gain shoulder but if you are going to a heavy caliber ........ the LAST thing you need is cranky feeding!!!

But ............ how does the shoulder business work out in the standard wildcat configuration? Are you skirting trouble or is this phenomenon overblown?

When a local shop closed down, I procurred a whole bunch of new Norma .358 Norma brass and had started thinking about a .375/.338 win mag.

Members here on boolits bent me towards the .416 Taylor with those cases. I have not ordered that barrel yet.

Along the way I fell into a .338-06 made by ER Shaw for a Savage 110 and it's a real sweet heart. As it has been my first venture into cast for long guns ........ it was nice to have a "kindly" initiation!

For not liking the Savage platform initially, I have sure taken the "hook" and ran with it ......... hard to not like that Savage nut!


Three 44s

[onceabull]

Dan: Thanks for the tip--I'm long some '03s that the local public has resisted my gunShow offers for 2-3 shows now,so change is indicated & Jesse's work already fits in four places in the racks(all 38/55 or 375 Win though).. onceabull

[405]

Before the love fest gets out of hand about the 375 or 400 Whelen... take a second look at the of hints about headspace control issues that were brought up in a couple of previous posts. Even the 35 Whelen is subject to this design flaw in the cartridge. Don't believe it?? Try shooting a very low pressure cast or Jbullet load with the bullet seated normally (not jammed into the lands). Report the results.... usually a backed out primer.... indicating loss of headspace control. Load that identical bullet, seating depth and case up to higher pressure 40Kpsi + and check the primer after firing.... magically seated back to normal position that is flush with cartridge base? No magic... the difference in the two primer positions is the amount of stretching that case is subjected to each time it is shot at the higher, normal pressure. That is why the Ackley version is the much better design than the 35 and 375+ "normal" Whelens. Taking that design to its ulitmate conclusion, the 400/06/Whelen, aka the 400 Whelen, is almost an artifact of an experiment that didn't work at all.... but takes up pages of gun writer script. There is a reason that the so called large bore, dangerous game cartridges have rims, belts or fairly sharp shoulder angles. No, its not to make feeding out of the magazine less reliable :)

[Bullshop]

405
What your saying may be so but in my own experiance I have not had any case stretching problems. The fact that I get good case life I would think is an indication that there is no abnormal stretching going on.
I must however confess to loading my ammo to help avoid stretching and to aid headspacing by seating my boolits out enough to have solid contact with the rifling, and never full length sizing.
I have been sizing for the 375/06 with a 375 Scovill die. This way I am sizing near the head portion of the case as well as plenty of the neck for good boolit pull but never touching the shoulder.
Since I do not shoot jacketed bullets in these rifles seating out enough for good solid engraving on chambering is no problem. Also since I am shooting boolits designed specifically for this cartridge and to fit the magazine as well as the chamber there is no issue or compromise with length of chamber verses length of magazine.
So even though you brought up good points those issues are easily dealt with and preventable by custom loading and boolit design.
When it comes right down to it we find those things to be necessary to get the best from any cartridge so in reality there is really no extra effort required beyond what is normal for best accuracy from any cartridge.
It is certainly not a one size fits all cartridge so factory ammo would maybe not be a good idea and maybe why we dont see any. On the other hand for a shooter well versed in these loading concepts anything that may be seen as an obstacle to safe ammo is little more than a bump in the road and far from the mountain it is at times made to be.

[JesterGrin_1]

I am very interested and trying to learn about the specifics of the 375-06 as it looks to be a very viable round. Since there is not much info on this round.

But I have read till I almost went blind everything I could find on the 35 Whelen. As in Ackley VS Standard. And have found that it is more of a personal preference between the two as nothing at least as far as I have found is set in stone.

For my 35 Whelen I decided on the standard case instead of the Ackley version.

[afrance]

JesterGrin,

I have done a fair bit of research on both the 375 Whelen and 400 Whelen for myself (still haven't decided which) and there is a Handloader article from July 1991 (no. 152) that W.G. Mitchell wrote about the 375 Whelen Improved. Very informative and has both J-word and cast loads.

I don't remember where but there was also an article in which they tested the bolt thrust pressure differences as the cartridge taper was reduced and it was pretty significant. In the article mentioned above, Mitchell used an improved chamber with the .453 shoulder (as opposed to the 06, 35 Whelen .441) and if I ever decide between the 400 and 375 Whelen, I will likely go with the .458 shoulder like the Whelen Improved reamer from 4-products.com.

Alan

[lkydvl]

Once fire formed to a chamber you should have no headspace/case setback issues unless you have set your size die incorrectly. Hence the reasons for segregating cases for individual rifles. I have a 375/06 Imp on a Pre 64 70. Terrific gun!

Andre`

[Moonie]

To me the idea of a 375 to 400 size Whelen sounds great however I really don't think I'm going to need anything more than 35.

I do have a sporterized M98 I'm planning on barreling, leaving the bolt face alone, larger caliber and 35 Whelen sounds perfect to me. No need in worrying about headspace issues.

[Bullshop]

Think about this for a minute. Have you ever gotten a slight bulge on a case neck from just a wee bit too much crimp? Have you ever then tried to chamber that round with that almost imperceptible bulge on the neck and found it just wont go?
Are you with me on this? Small bulge on neck wont go!!! Big bulge at shoulder wont go either.

[JesterGrin_1]

So are you trying to say this is where the Battle of the Bulge came from :)

There are just so many pro's and con's it is hard to decipher which is which. That is why I posted the question on this board. :)

[Euan]

Think about this for a minute. Have you ever gotten a slight bulge on a case neck from just a wee bit too much crimp? Have you ever then tried to chamber that round with that almost imperceptible bulge on the neck and found it just wont go?
Are you with me on this? Small bulge on neck wont go!!! Big bulge at shoulder wont go either.

Mr Bullshop, I know where you are coming from, I have had a devil of a job sometimes trying to chamber a round that would not fit. Just because it had a small bulge on the neck, or a dent, or bend etc.
One of my earlier 9x57 mausers had a very small shoulder, but had no problems with it. it never misfired or set the shoulder back that I was aware of. I was using full power loads. I often wonder if that rifle was a rebored 7x57 as the neck seemed a little longer, and with the smaller shoulder diameter. It still had the military stepped profile.
When I do my Ruger No1, I will quite happerly use the standard 06 case. Sizing die be easy, just cut a standard 06 die off below the shoulder and still be able to size the case body. I would neck size with my cut down 375H&H die. So with my scotch ancestery, it would serve the purpose well.
Cheers Euan.

[Bullshop]

I have been expecting Buckshot to weigh in here. I know he has a 375/06 but for some reason he has remained conspicuously quiet.
Buckshot tell us what you know.

[JesterGrin_1]

AFrance was nice enough to send me the link to this article on the .375 Whelen Improved. And I have to say it was astonishing. And some great info even if it is a bit dated now.

http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/PDF/hl152partial.pdf

Thank You AFrance

[Bullshop]

You will also find lots of data at the Z-hat site. The Z-Hat data is for the Scovill version with the shoulder slightly forward so if loading for the standard I would reduce starting loads by about 10%. In my experience I did not see much improvement in the Z-Hat/Scovill version but I am shooting very heavy boolits at 375gn where the Z-Hat site concentrates on lighter bullets to get impressive sounding velocity. My boolit is using up most of the volume gained by pushing the shoulder forward so I get little difference between the two cartridges.
With the standard version my boolit base is contained entirely within its longer neck but in the Scovill version it is not

[onceabull]

You might want to snatch up quickly any data you find on Z-hat site,as word from another forum is that Fred Z. has skipped out of Wyoming, last seen in Montana,perhaps working for someone else,and leaving some customers short of finished project(s) and/or deposit $...website may disappear,too....Onceabull

[Bullshop]

OH thats a bummer! If it is gone I am pretty sure I have the data for the 375 Hawk/Scovill from their site in my files.

[nanuk]

I have an old 98Mauser that I would like to try something interesting on.

a 375/06 would be a fun project.

I like big boolits

[Euan]

OH thats a bummer! If it is gone I am pretty sure I have the data for the 375 Hawk/Scovill from their site in my files.

The Z-Hat site was still up lastnight.

[FrankG]

I have a 375-06 AI that I put together over 20 years ago on a Mauser FN action and 24" heavy sporter Wilson barrel that Brian Perrezone was selling through SN at the time. My brass is Rem '06 that was full length resized in Redding dies , trimmed to length and fireformed with 375449 270grn cast bullets seated against rifling . The cases filled out nicely with just needing a touchup to square mouths up.
I get 2550 with 270grn Hornady and 4320 powder with -1" moa @100yds.:bigsmyl2:


With the cast I get really super groups but have never ran it across my chrony :oops:
Dunno why just shot heck out of it with milsurp cases loaded with cast for grins :cbpour:

[edward hogan]

Owned Rem 700s in .35Whelen and AI Whelen. A very fine ctg for sure; but...

Think if I were going to a standard boltface ctg (.473") as opposed to magnum (.533"), would choose the .284win ctg to wildcat. Gonna get a better shoulder with the .500 case diameter (rebated case head) and a .375 neck. Same basic powder capacity as the .30-06, but more room to seat bullet forward out of the case.

I recently converted a CRF win 70 .300wing to a .375H&H; doesn't have the full H&H length receiver, but does feed 300gr btsp just fine. That said, I just cast a hundred bullets from new-to-me RCBS 250gr flatpoint mold and figure since I use Wheelweight alloy straight, that I will load to pretty decent velocity and have better oal sized round, plus flatpoint knockdown and Wheelweight penetration which is awesome with my .454 Casull.

Also think a .375/338win could be a very versatile prospect for the handloader and bullet casting fan.

[Bullshop]

The problem with going to the 284 case is that it introduces a new problem, that of feeding from the mag.
The larger diameter of the 284 case changes the dynamics of the feed system. That in tern takes the simplicity out of a simple conversion.

[edward hogan]

Guess it depends on what rifle action your working with, but...

I can't think of one Long Action receiver that isn't already sized for at least standard magnum ctgs. Standard magnum ctgs, not ultra or WSM type have body diameter of about .510. Maybe this varies, but the rim is .533 and the body is lesser diameter. No need to widen for rail clearance when using the .284 case, and if you have feeding problems; find a magnum follower.

I have a win 70 in 6.5x55 and the follower is same as for .30-06. The case is shorter, no problem with feeding that I've ever noticed even though the case is tapered and about .480 diameter compared to .470 for the 06.

No need to worry about fillers if you're using the .284 case,
Much more oal open to you in the magazine for bullet seating if using .284,
Data is interchangeable, per Hodgdon #26 for .30-06 and .30/284, (ETA: so use whatever data for .375-06 as starting point)
Heavy boolits are gonna be pretty long; unless using a super-mag receiver you lose seating flexibility by going with the longer case.

As an intermediary option, might try the 6.5x55 AI case as its diameter is .480 versus .500, and capacity will be about the same or just a bit less. The Rem Short Action Ultra Mag case would also be a good option for flexibility.

Why not the .35 Gibbs? If looking for max viability from the 06 case, can make the case for the Gibbs over a .375/06, but the .284 or Swede AI case is better for reasons outlined above especially giving a larger diameter shoulder with the AI advantages of headspace and less brass migration.

Then again, can go the other way and get an NEI or other custom mold that yields a .338 bullet at 285 grains and call it a day...

[Bullshop]

Sorry! I should clarified. I was thinking standard milsurp Mauser or Springfield type action. Altering feed rails on those to get a fatter cartridge to feed can be tricky.

[bearcove]

350 Rem mag case is what I think about. Ken Waters made a 416 Express that is just a 350RM necked up. Plenty of shoulder at 416 375 no problem. Standard mag brass to make. If you form brass with a long neck and seat bullets out. A .375 or .416 short mag body with a .5" neck and bullets seated out should make an efficient cast friendly light magnum.

Don't need more than that, At least I don't think so.

A long neck 416 express sounds good!

[Buckshot]

http://www.fototime.com/7EC0BDD1F8B7152/standard.jpghttp://www.fototime.com/7C7D23E1D49E845/standard.jpg

I just saw this thread :-) LEFT: A 8x57 with a Lyman 323471 next to the 375 Whelen AI with a 300gr Sierra. RIGHT A 30-'06 with a 180gr PSP, An unknown loose .375" 325gr SPBT, Loaded 300gr Sierra, loose and loaded Hornady 270gr RNSP and a loose and loaded Hornady 300gr RNSP.

My first experience with a 375 anything, was our old rangemaster (Ken) who had a Sako chambered 375 H&H improved with a 12" twist. My 375 W-A sports the same twist. I'd fired ken's rifle a couple times just to prove I wasn't a *****, but it wasn't very much fun and way overpowered to simply punch holes in paper.

He eventually began experimenting with cast and aquired the Lyman 375449 FNGC which I understand was intended as the boolit FOR the 375 H&H. Ken got it shooting very well, and at some very respectable velocities. This was at 50 yards and he'd have 3 rounds cutting a 3 lobed hole and 5 shots going 1.25" or less. However at 100 yards it was like a shotgun. He tried different powders and alloys but was always defeated beyond 50 yards.

http://www.fototime.com/E763D260E176835/standard.jpg

LEFT: A 30 cal 220gr RNSP. A 352gr NEI cast. Next the same slug loaded. The next cartridge is loaded with a 328gr NEI pointed design. Can you tell I didn't have a real well fitting nose punch? :-) Next in line is a 300gr Hornady RNSP and their 270gr RNSP. I was gifted a handfull of each of the 2 NEI designs by Beagle or Sundog, and I forget at this late date. As I mentioned, my 375 - '06 has the same 12" twist as Ken's 375 H&H Imp but the WORST groups (3 shot) I've gotten at 100 yards were 3".

My rifle was a "1st effort 8x57 Mauser to sporter conversion" that the guy had lying around for some time. I had an 01 FFL for 20 years and early on in the infancy of the BPC Silhuette game I recieved and transfered several rifles for him, at my cost. He had been trying to sell it but eventually gave it to me :-) The bore was shot and truth to tell, the only useable part to me was the action. Everything else was stripped off and the action was sent to The Montana Rifleman to have it barreled and chambered to 375-'06 Whelen Ackley Improved. I have no idea why:veryconfu I do kind of like the offbeat and unusual tho'.

It now resides in a walnut stock I got from Cabelas and it wears a non-descript fixed 4x scope that came off a M788 in 243 I'd bought used in '79, and then sold off in the early 80's. I have absolutely zero need or use for such a thing as this 375-'06. Our neighborhood hasn't experienced a Rhino stampede in quite some time now as a matter of fact. Sorry about the photo quality as at the time all I had was a 1 mpx HP camera with no closeup ability.

Here's a bit of the work I did with it, leaving off the Lyman 375449 stuff. I have only seen one article on the 375-'06 and I don't recall it as being the improved version. I recall it was in "Rifle" magazine. Apparently IMR4320 was or IS supopsed to be THE powder for this cartridge. About the 1st time I'd ever seen 4320 listed as the best for anything :-) Sorry if you dote on that number.

My rifle has a 23" bbl, btw.

NEI 352gr cast, 53.0 H4350 2075 fps
NEI 352gr cast, 52.0 Surp WC852 lot#47288 (slow) + 1cc Grex, 1950 fps
NEI 328gr cast, 60.0 Surp WC852 as above, 2150 fps

Hornady 270gr RNSP, 58.0 grs IMR4320, 2415 fps
Same ........................, 60.0 grs IMR4320, 2460 fps
Same ........................, 63.0 grs Surp WC852 lot#47288 (slow) 2200 fps

Hornady 300gr RNSP, 53.0 grs IMR4320, 2200 fps
Hornady 300gr RNSP, 57.0 grs H4350, 2175 fps
Hornady 300gr RNSP, 59.0 grs H4350, 2240 fps

Sorry if you were expecting a lot more. I DID do a LOT more shooting with the Lyman 375449 cast boolit, and had it up over 2,000 fps. As far as jacketed went they were spendy even then, and as I said I had no legitimate need for this rifle/cartridge and the expense and abuse was a bit more then I needed to subject myself to. My apologies to those fearless souls who shoot such things for the fun of it:shock: None of the above were showing any real pressure signs, and I'm VERY familiar with the Winchester LR primer. It's about all I've ever used in that size. I'm not aware of any legitimate lab worked up loads for this round, and had I not wimped out I'd imagine another couple hundred FPS could be obtained. None of these loads filled the case.

I never used magnum primers. They were all Winchester STD LRP. Cases were all reformed R-P 35 Whelen cases and fire forming was done with the cast Lyman boolit. Dies came from CH-4D and are superb. I may be able to see in the photo's that I only partially size the necks? The bodies haven't ever been FL sized since fire forming and some of the 20 round batches used for jacketed have 5-6 firings on them. Those I used for cast were seperate. Hope this helps whoever was needing it.

................Buckshot

[Bass Ackward]

What always interests me is the "comfort" level that people find or in this situation, don't find. There should be NO comfort level minus a rim / belt for any cartridge or bore diameter. But there should be no fear either. We as reloaders should understand or avoid, but that is a personal limitation.

That's why you are always "advised" to separate and mark your brass that is solely intended for low pressure use. That goes for 284 brass, "Improved" cartridges, everything without a belft or rim.

How do we learn to fire form AI, Gibbs, or any other design for which there isn't factory brass? (The joke is that even on new brass, there isn't proper headspace) We learn to reduce the charge and seat the bullet so that it touches the lands. Works for cast cases you want to rehabilitate too.

And there, ladies and gentlemen is 100% of the headspace you will ever need. Case shape and bore diameter are eliminated from the safety equation. Everything else is a personal choice.

[JZdryfly]

I'm loading for my 375 Whelen IMP 40* now, as a matter of fact. I've been using Lyman's
375248 and 375449 with 4198 for 1" groups. That's with 35 grains of I4198. Now I'm trying Bear Tooth's 255 grain boolit and working up in charges to see how well they shoot.
235 grain Speer with 60 grains of 4198 gives me 2700 fps. 300 grain Sierra SPBT with 58 grains of H4831 makes 1.0" groups. Now that I'm just shooting gongs out to 300 yards I'm sticking to cast boolits. I have a 35 Brown-Whelen that I like, and if I was to make up a 375 again I would go with a caliber neck like the Brown-Whelen, and a longer chamber throat.

[44 flattop]

Guys, I just brought home my new M700 in 375 Whelen Imp 40* with a 24" Shilen barrel. She is a beauty!

What would a good fireforming load be? I have some 280 cast, 235's, 260's, 270's and 300gr jacketed stuff.

Not sure exactly how stiff to make the fireforming load.

Thanks!

[houndsnmules]

I'm just finishing up a 400 Brown Whelen. I didn't have the exact dimensions so I used a .458 shoulder with a shorter neck. I'm working on loads for a 350 Hawk bullet now. I believe I can use 411 Hawk or Brown Whelen loads to start with

[mart]

I cannot speak to the 375 Whelen other than to say a friend has one, loves it and has experienced none of the headspace issues that have seem to follow all the large Whelen rounds. I can speak with some degree of authority on both the 35 Whelen and the 400 Whelen. I have both in their original configurations and have never experienced any of the "headspace" issues that get brought up during any discussion either and especially of the latter. If one does a Google search for 400 Whelen, one of the first hits will be a link to a Michael Petrov article, "Smashing the Headspace Myth". Michael is probably the foremost authority on all things Whelen and certainly the leading expert on the 400 Whelen.

The original 400 Whelen has a shoulder diameter of .458 as opposed to the .411 of the 30-06 and 35 Whelen. It always was an "improved" cartridge to begin with and the problems arose when fired cases were improperly sized so as to create set back shoulder or a shoulder diameter reduced to .411. The problem is easily rectified by using the correct dies, set correctly. We ask a 45 ACP to headspace on far less surface than what the 400 Whelen has for shoulder. Both Townsend Whelen and Elmer Keith considered the 400 Whelen a fine round and noted in their writings that problems came to be only when cases were incorrectly sized.

Michael's article was an eye opener for me and the impetus I needed to move forward with the 400 Whelen build. The 375 Whelen is on the short list for upcoming builds. Having experienced no issues with the 400 I would anticipate nothing but success with it's next smaller brother.

Mart

[nanuk]

0.411?

or do you mean 0.441?

[mart]

Your are absolutely right. It is .441. I shouldn't have written that after coming off a 12 hour night shift.

Mart

[houndsnmules]

I still see it on various forums about 400's not headspacing properly. If my shoulder height is even slighty longer then spec. You would need a hammer to tap the bolt closed. Some people just can't get that thru their head

[bearcove]

I keep toying with the idea of doing a 416 express that Ken Waters did. One problem is most the 416 bullets are 400gr and a few 350gr. His load data shows that the 300gr bullets might work best. Didn't find any light ones available.

The 405 caliber(.411) 300gr bullets are made by Hornady a FP and Spire pt. That would be better than the 416 bullets made for the magnums. That would make a nice 411 express. 350 rem mag brass necked up to .411. Same case capacity as the whelen. Hmm

[mart]

There is a fair selection of bullets available for the .411 bore cartridges. I tested all I could find except for the North Fork bullets in my 400 Whelen. Hawk has a 300, 350 and 400, Woodleigh has a 400 and Barnes has a 300 grain TSX. And of course there are the Hornady 300 grain flat points and spire points. I am most excited about trying mine out with cast bullets though. I have a mold from Accurate Molds that has a 320 grain and 400 grain cavity in the same block. I hope to get out this next week off to try a few. The 411 Express on the 350 Remington would make a fun wildcat and should be the equal of the 400 Whelen and 450/400 NE with cast or jacketed bullets.

[lotech]

There is an article in HANDLOADER #227 dealing with cast bullet use in the .411 Hawk.

[mellonhead]

I was just about convinced that I should do a 375-06. But now after reading this I am sure of it. Is there one rifle better than another to start with? I had planned on using a Ruger 77 in 30-06 to start. I have been looking at a couple Winchester model 70's also as donor guns.

Toby

[barkerwc4362]

I had a .375 Whelen Improved built 24 years ago. I used a Santa Barbara 98 action and shilen barrel. I had a tang safety installed like on my Ruger M77s. The boys a Wisner's built it for me. It is based on the African style, so it is not light. But it shoots really good. I mostly use Remington .35 Whelen brass necked up and fire formed. Have not fired a lot of cast through it, but 4895 works well with those I have used. I mostly use WCC-852 or H-380 with jacketed bullets of 250 - 300 grain weights.

Bill

[longbow]

I have always thought that the .35, .375 and .400 Whelen cartridges were very practical cartridges. I don't own any but always thought I would like to.

I have read the stories about headspace problems and wondered why it would be an issue when there are cartridges like .450 Bushmaster and .444 Rimless that headspace on only the case mouth.

Any shoulder larger than the brass thickness is large in comparison so should present no problem. Just my opinion though.

In any case, in defense of the .400 Whelen, here is an article I thought was interesting:

http://www.z-hat.com/smashing_the_headspace_myth.htm

Longbow

[bearcove]

A case mouth is solid and supported. A case shoulder is soft and moves easier.

[bearcove]

Another part to that is the shoulder on an unimproved shoulder is being pushed into an inclined plane at 17 1/2 degrees an improved at 40 degrees a case mouth at 90 degrees.

Don't have a trig table handy, but the 17 degree is just sizing the shoulder back with a taper. At the other extreme the case mouth is supported by a column that would have to colapse.

[mart]

A case mouth is solid and supported. A case shoulder is soft and moves easier.

I don't know if you are implying that the shoulder could be moved back in the process of chambering a round but I can assure you that it cannot, at least in my rifle with the force I am able to apply to the bolt. I have deliberately placed rounds in front of the Winchester extractor and forced the extractor to snap over the rim in the chambering process in an effort to determine if the "headspace" issue can be made to happen. I have, in every attempt, been unable to move the shoulder back on the case. I do not think it possible outside of the loading press and sizing dies. If the dies are set correctly, headspace will never be an issue with the 375 or 400 Whelen.

Mart

[bearcove]

No I was adressing the headspace on case mouth.

The blow from a firing pin can size back the shoulder some.

I don't think the whelens have a headspace problem. More of a die/reload problem. That is operator error in most cases. Other cases with small shoulders are also prone to having the shoulders bumped back because it is easy to do.

[mart]

No I was adressing the headspace on case mouth.

The blow from a firing pin can size back the shoulder some.

I don't think the whelens have a headspace problem. More of a die/reload problem. That is operator error in most cases. Other cases with small shoulders are also prone to having the shoulders bumped back because it is easy to do.

With all due respect I cannot buy that. If the firing pin force was hard enough to drive the case forward with enough force to set the shoulder back it would be more than hard enough to puncture the primer. Sorry, I've heard that one before and I don't believe a firing pin spring can develop that much force.

[bearcove]

Thats the beauty of a free country, you can believe whatever you want

[missionary5155]

Greetings
I am in the process to loading my NOS 35 Whelen brass to 375 Whelen and have again enjoyed reading the previous posts. I hope to be firing my JES 375 this Monday if the weather warnings prove false.
Have already ran the brass over a .375 case mouth expander. Going to square up the mouths, prime and figure a fire form load using the Lyman 375449. Planning on 28 grains of 5744 to get a good fill out and that is the powder I have found in the storage.
Mike in ILLinois

[Harry O]

You might want to look up information on the 9.5x57 Mannlicher-Schoenauer. That is a .375 Ackley Improved Whelen that was shortened 6mm (although the .375 Whelen came afterward). Otherwise (according to the dimensions in Cartridges of the World) they are pretty much the same.

I got one of the Mannlichers many years ago. It was originally based on 8mm Mauser brass, which is where it got the 57mm length. The 30-06 was also based on the 8mm Mauser base. I tried fire-forming some from 8x57 and found that it gave excess headspace. The firing pin drove the case forward to the end of the extractor before it formed the new shoulder. I cured that problem by using .35 Whelen brass for forming. Moving the neck back moved it into the larger diameter shoulder of the case. Then I could fire-form it to completely fill out the shoulder without giving it excess headspace.

Since the 9.5x57 is limited to about 45,000psi and it has less case capacity, that cartridge should be able to be used for safe starting loads for the .375 Whelen.

[scaevola]

Just read through this thread. Interesting - thanks for the info.

[centurion20000]

I think you knew I would strike at this cast. I am a true died in the wool 375/06 nut case. I have 4 of them. In my view it is absolutely perfect for where I live and what I hunt.
For someone wanting near 375 H&H performance with much less recoil it fits that bill nicely. All the other praises attributed to well balanced boolit shooters can be piled on as well. My standard hunting load uses a 375gn boolit at 2200 fps and leaves little to be desired in a big game hunting round for shots extending to 300 yards.
Why the 375 H&H round is so popular on this continent and the 375/06 so unpopular is a mystery to me. The latter is in my way of thinking better suited to our game.
Throw in the miser factor in procuring ammo and there is no comparison. When I go scrounging for brass at the local shooting sites (gravel pits) I find once fired 06 brass in no short supply but in contrast scant few 375 H&H.
Forming brass from 06 is not at all difficult but there is a little labor involved in trimming to square up the mouths.
A 35 Whelen has been my constant companion for at least 30 years and I can not put down the 35 version but have to say that since using the 375 version I have a strong preference for the latter.

Forgive me for resurrecting a 3 year old thread but what barrel length did you get that 375gr boolit to 200 fps and did you have a particular powder preference?
I'm doing some research on this caliber for a project and would appreciate any responses you give. Thank you.

[Bullshop]

The 2200 fps load mentioned uses 4350 of any flavor. Its quite easy to get 2000 fps with as slow a powder as 4831 and this heavy a boolit. The 2200 fps load was chronoed from a 27" barrel but I also have a 20" barrel rifle and it give up very little velocity with these slow type powders and very heavy boolits.

[centurion20000]

Thanks. It might sound crazy, but I'm looking at building 375 Garand Tanker ... data really helps :)

[Bullshop]

I cant read between the lines. Do you mean you would like my load data?

[centurion20000]

No, I was just saying thank you for the barrel / speed data. I'll work up the load myself (no liability). :)

[Bullshop]

Oh OK. What barrel length will you use? What boolit/bullet weights will you use? I have the load data that at one time was available from Hawk Lads for the 375 Hawk Scovill. The HS cartridge is a slightly improved version of the standard Whelen case.
The HS data is mostly for what I consider light weight for caliber bullets and they do get some very impressive velocities with them.
I found that using the very heavy boolits that I use that since much of the boolit base extends into the powder volume area that the HS case just didn't give any better ballistics than the standard case. On the other hand I had one rifle, a riflemen's rifle pre 64 mod 70 Win that did exhibit feeding issues with the HS case while I have had no feeding problems with the several rifles I have had chambered to the standard Whelen case.
If you would like the Hawk Labs data I have that available.

[3584ELK]

[QUOTE=405;1262827]Before the love fest gets out of hand about the 375 or 400 Whelen... take a second look at the of hints about headspace control issues that were brought up in a couple of previous posts. Even the 35 Whelen is subject to this design flaw in the cartridge. Don't believe it?? Try shooting a very low pressure cast or Jbullet load with the bullet seated normally (not jammed into the lands). Report the results.... usually a backed out primer.... indicating loss of headspace control. Load that identical bullet, seating depth and case up to higher pressure 40Kpsi + and check the primer after firing.... magically seated back to normal position that is flush with cartridge base? ..../QUOTE]

This happens with a .280 Remington as well, it seems to be more about low pressure than it does head spacing on the shoulder.

[Frank V]

[quote=405;1262827]before the love fest gets out of hand about the 375 or 400 whelen... Take a second look at the of hints about headspace control issues that were brought up in a couple of previous posts. Even the 35 whelen is subject to this design flaw in the cartridge. Don't believe it?? Try shooting a very low pressure cast or jbullet load with the bullet seated normally (not jammed into the lands). Report the results.... Usually a backed out primer.... Indicating loss of headspace control. Load that identical bullet, seating depth and case up to higher pressure 40kpsi + and check the primer after firing.... Magically seated back to normal position that is flush with cartridge base? ..../quote]

this happens with a .280 remington as well, it seems to be more about low pressure than it does head spacing on the shoulder.

I'm not trying to start an argument, but back in the 60s when the .300 Win Mag. came out some people got detonations not combustions using light charges of slow powder in the .300 Win. Mag. I think the finding was secondary pressure excursions? Even today some reloading manuals warn against trying light loads with slow powders. I'm not sure if we have the same thing here?
Elmer Keith spoke highly of the .35 Whelen.

[3584ELK]

[quote=3584elk;3318291]

I'm not trying to start an argument, but back in the 60s when the .300 Win Mag. came out some people got detonations not combustions using light charges of slow powder in the .300 Win. Mag. I think the finding was secondary pressure excursions? Even today some reloading manuals warn against trying light loads with slow powders. I'm not sure if we have the same thing here?
Elmer Keith spoke highly of the .35 Whelen.

Agreed Frank...I should have specified that my various experiences with the primer backing out typically occur with cast boolit loads and
low charges of fast burning powders, and with perfectly formed brass for the particular rifle. I think it may be a matter of pressure not being high enough to firmly seat the case against the bolt face.

[Frank V]

[QUOTE=Frank V;3318301]

Agreed Frank...I should have specified that my various experiences with the primer backing out typically occur with cast boolit loads and
low charges of fast burning powders, and with perfectly formed brass for the particular rifle. I think it may be a matter of pressure not being high enough to firmly seat the case against the bolt face.

I have had that happen not enough pressure to force the case up against the bolt face & primers back out.

[dakota]

Last night I almost finished chambering a 375 Whelen AI. It's a 22" barrel 2 1/2 contour, Mouser 98 action, Lyman aperture sights. Front sight is red post. Stock s McMillian recoil pad = decelerator.
I'm plannng on cast boolits, primarily.
Im thinking leaving the trigger military as trigger control isn't much of an issue and I want a trigger that can handle dust/dirt. The bolt handle will be a copy of early model 70.
Hopefully will be the rifle I carry this fall.

[lotech]

Some years ago, I worked extensively with several '-06 wildcats and Improveds, including .35 Whelen Improved, .375 Whelen Improved, and .411 Hawk. Never a headspace problem with any of them. Some who speak of headspace troubles have probably experienced them. I have no expert qualifications, but perhaps there was something wrong somewhere in their setup, be it gun, dies, handloading practices, etc. Others have simply read somewhere that these cartridges were poorly designed and should have headspace problems, but they have no experience with the cartridges of which they speak.

In retrospect, for jacketed or cast bullet use, there is probably very little practical difference in any of the .35s in comparison with the .375s. I suppose the .375 Whelen Improved was my favorite. However, with jacketed bullets, I never got the velocities that others claimed, though maybe I had a "slow" barrel.

The .411 Hawk, (talk about something with minimal shoulder) is, maybe in my opinion only, a better cast bullet cartridge than it is a cartridge for jacketed bullets, particularly so if the user is inclined toward the heaviest of bullets. All these cartridges are interesting to work with, but I'm glad I satisfied the curiosity some time back.

[Moonie]

Last night I almost finished chambering a 375 Whelen AI. It's a 22" barrel 2 1/2 contour, Mouser 98 action, Lyman aperture sights. Front sight is red post. Stock s McMillian recoil pad = decelerator.
I'm plannng on cast boolits, primarily.
Im thinking leaving the trigger military as trigger control isn't much of an issue and I want a trigger that can handle dust/dirt. The bolt handle will be a copy of early model 70.
Hopefully will be the rifle I carry this fall.
I have a beautiful 335gr mold from Accurate Molds I'm using in my 375 H&H. I would think it would work very well in a 375 Whelen AI as well.