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8mm
05-05-2011, 07:45 PM
Has anyone had any experience with the MP penta pins in deer hunting loads? I am about to cast some 45-270 HP bullets for use in my FA 454 Casull loaded to about 1100 fps with a 50/50 pb to ww alloy. I am wondering which pin type would be best for reliable expansion without fragmenting. I am sure either type pin would work, but one or the other might be a better choice.

waksupi
05-05-2011, 08:48 PM
My opinion is you are better off without a hollow point for hunting.

leftiye
05-05-2011, 09:39 PM
Eight, Your alloy will probly not expand at that velocity. That is, excepting you have a radically large hollow point (which presents other problems). Pure lead will expand at 1000 fps - sometimes, but 50/50 needs a little more poop. Maybe use a 20 to 1 ratio of lead to tin? Maybe a little hotter? I modify all of my hollow point pins (smaller) so that I don't lose half of the boolit if I hit bone. A smaller mushroom that will still penetrate is my idea. This given enough energy to kick sum butt.

fredj338
05-05-2011, 09:58 PM
Well, my own testing has shown HP design is everything when it comes to expansion of a LHP. You can certainly get reliable lead bullet expansion as low as 850fps. The trick is getting it to not fragment @ higher vel. I have found a cup point cast soft, 25-1 lead/tin, works well for hunting w/o fragmentation. For a lower vel, under 900fps, use a larger HP design.
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272-1K.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/452-268-1K.jpg
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/9mm-136-1200.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/45-215gr.jpg http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v703/fredj338/44-272.jpg

hansumtoad
05-05-2011, 10:07 PM
I would respectfully submit that it's WHERE you hit them, not what you hit them with. A non-HP 20:1 alloy of that caliber and weight going 1000-1200 fps at impact behind the shoulder, in the neck, or in the head..... and the victim isn't going anywhere.

Larry Gibson
05-05-2011, 10:51 PM
It is quite well documented that expanding bullets kill soft skinned non dangerous game better than solids, SWCs or othe such designs. This is with rifles and handguns. I've been using HP'd cast bullets for 40+ years in handguns and rifles. As with anything a proper alloy and HP must be used. A properly alloyed HP caused more tisue damage than the same bullet in solid form that does not expand.

My 429244 cast hard at 1400 fps is a good killer out of my .44 Magnum. Cast softer to expand it is a better killer. The 429640HP cast of an appropriate alloy is event a better killer.

A 311041 is a very good killer when cast hard, cast softer so it expands and it kills better. Cast soft with a HP of the appropriate depth and it is even a quicker killer.

The RCBS 35-200-FN in the 35 Rem ay 2140 fps cast hard is a decent killer. Cast softer of 50/50 alloy so it expands and it kills quicker. Cast of 50/50 with a 1/8" HP 1/3 the depth of the nose and it is a very quicke killer.

I could go on and on with examples after example.

Ask yourself why all game bullets made for deer, elk, etc have expanding bullets.....the answer is obvious, they kill quicker and better. Yes a solid FN hard cast bullet can kill, so can a RN hardcast bullet. One kills better than the other and is what is used. The HP softer cast bullets that expand kill even better than the FN hard cast which kills much better than the RN hard cast. If you like hunting with hard cast bullets that do not expand then by all means do so. That is your choice. However, is it really necessary to denegrate expanding soft cast HP bullets that also kill very well and in many cases better than hard cast to justify your choice?

Larry Gibson

btroj
05-06-2011, 07:16 AM
I could go either way. I will say that if you use a hollow point be sure it is not cast too hard. You want it to expand, not fragment.
I had a bad experience last year with a cast hollow point in my 45-70. Too hard and too fast gave me a fragmented bullet and poor penetration. I was out of balance between hardness, velocity, and hollow point size.
In the end, hit them in the right place and they will go down.

Brad

GLynn41
05-06-2011, 08:36 AM
I used the Mihea .41 cal Group buy last deer season -bullet weight is about 209 --looks like a Lyman devastator mold- it went length wise from left shoulder to right hip on a 2 year old doe? cut two ribs going in and knocked hair off where it stopped- retained weight is 137 gr-it was a .410 GNR mv was 1660 --shot was 40 yards or so alloy no clue range lead -stick on wheel weights- and WWs- ac -- mold is gc'd-my thumb would chew it up easily-shot well at 75 yards --have not tried it past that-- up to now I have used LWNGC-- they did fine and this one did too -- as was stated where you will hit matters first then the what-- I got the mold for the HP because what I read on this board-- deer are pretty thin skinned- my normal was a 255 lwngc that at 1340 to 1600 went all the way through a 280# boar from several angles-- so deer were shall we say less of a problem- I am going to stay with the HP for deer-- but I am getting a Lee hardness tester- and will shoot for like 20-1-- I did take a file and notch the nose which looks cool but is likely not needed--

Doby45
05-06-2011, 09:01 AM
*GASP* I lived in Dyersburg for about 5 years. Dated a little girl out in Ripley..

USSR
05-06-2011, 07:41 PM
Has anyone had any experience with the MP penta pins in deer hunting loads? I am about to cast some 45-270 HP bullets for use in my FA 454 Casull loaded to about 1100 fps with a 50/50 pb to ww alloy. I am wondering which pin type would be best for reliable expansion without fragmenting. I am sure either type pin would work, but one or the other might be a better choice.

8mm,

That alloy with that bullet will cause your bullets to fracture rather than mushroom. I have the same mould and started out using the same alloy, but testing showed that it would not be a good choice for deer. The problem is: not enough tin. So, I went with a 25-1 Pb/Sn alloy (4% tin, and eliminated the antimony altogether), and got excellent expansion. Testing with another similar alloy with 1% antimony showed excellent results as well. They key is: keep the antimony level down and the tin level up.

Don

Doc Highwall
05-06-2011, 08:01 PM
Think of the millions of bison that were killed with soft lead bullets that were just lead and tin with an alloy of 25:1 to 40:1 and more so towards 40:1. Antimony is not good for expansion when the velocity is 1200 fps or slower but small amounts will not hurt at higher velocities. In the end shot placement is king but having a bullet that does not shatter and holds together reasonably well and passes through the animal is a good thing.

btroj
05-06-2011, 10:10 PM
More and more I am thinking that Doc is on the right path. I use antimony in my alloy for hunting but not too much. I like 50 to 75 percent lead with the rest wheelwreights. If water dropped the can be driven plenty fast but they will not break upon impact.

white eagle
05-06-2011, 11:32 PM
maybe Elmer had a good hunting alloy with
his 16/1
I think I will save the antimony for cast rifle
only because of the speed (velocity)
I may be wrong to ..........

lkydvl
05-09-2011, 10:31 AM
Good thread...I have just acquired a 462 500 gr HP mold. Needed the oversize for a Pedersoli 47-70. Was wondering what the issues were using a HP in a large cast rifle bullet considering alloys, bullet slump, velocity etc.

In another thread someone was casting a 375 bullet using pure lead for the nose with harder alloy behind. Wondering how fast you have to be to accomplish that little trick?


Hope this thread continues.

Andre`