LeveRevoltuion Powder

[Larry Gibson]

Picked up a pound of the new Hodgdon LeveRevolution powder. I wanted to get a feel for this powder before attempting cast bullet loads. The suggested load on teh powder lable said 35.5 gr with the 160 gr FTX bullet. I didn't have any of those but wanted to see how that powder did with 150 gr jacketed. I've a supply of 150 gr Wonchester 30-30 PPs so I decided to work up a load with those. I started at 36 gr and worked up to 40 gr.

FLS'd PMC cases were used with WLR primers A LFCD was used to apply the crimp. AOL was 2.53". The rifle used for the test is my M94AE which has a strain gauge attached for psi measurements via the M43 Oehler PBL. The test was ran at TRRC range in University Place, 240 ft ASL with the temp at 48 degrees.

A 5 shot string of factory 160 LeveRevolution 160 gr FTX rounds were fired prior to the test to get a "reference" for velocity and the peak MAP (Maximum Average pressure). The factory ammo ran 2433 fps at 36,800 psi(M43). A previous test of that factory ammunition at 75 degrees gave 2452 fps at 37,800 psi(M43). The SAAMI MAP for the 30-30 is 42,000 psi. Given the temperature this morning I decided that a psi(M43) of 37,000 would be my MAP with the reloads.

Bottom line is 40 gr of LeveRevolution under that 150 gr PP is a 100% density load. It topped out at 37,100 psi(M43) with a velocity of 2551 fps. Accuracy for the 5 shots was 2.1" with the apurture sights. The time/pressure curve was not as steep with considerably more time under the "rise" than with the factory load. The peak psi was reached at mid barrel length (12") with the reload vs 9" with the factory load. Standard factory 150/170 gr jacketed load hit peak psi at 7 - 8" of barrel. Yes I can measure where the peak psi occurs in the barrel.

Some years back after reading Paco kelly's articles on loading for the newer M94s I developed a Paco 150 gr load using H335 in a similar M94AE with a 24" barrel. Loads were developed by watching primer back out and stopping when the primer was no longer backing out. This indicates there is then sufficient psi to be pushing the case back against the bolt. PO Ackley gives a very good description of this technique in his writings. I stopped 3 gr under what a current loading manual listed as max for that bullet at the tiem. Velocity was 2527 fps and accuracy was good. That load tested this morning revealed a MAP of 44,400 psi(M43), obviously over SAAMI's MAP for the 30-30.

Bottom line here is that the LeveRevolution Powder is allowing a very real 2550 fps with 150 gr jacketed bullet at factory level psi's below the SAAMI MAP. That's pretty darn good to me and is a worth while powder thus far tested. I'm looking forward to some 311041s over this powder in this M94AE.

Larry Gibson

[jmsj]

Larry,
Thanks for the information. Why do you think the peak psi was reached in a shorter distance?
I am very interested in hearing how this powder does with cast. Keep us posted.
Thanks, jmsj

[Bullshop]

Interesting stuff! I am glad to see it. Too often we buy products that dont live up to advertising.

[izzyjoe]

i can't wait till i can get some locally, it sounds like it has the makins of a good cast powder. thanks for the info larry.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
Thanks for the information. Why do you think the peak psi was reached in a shorter distance?
I am very interested in hearing how this powder does with cast. Keep us posted.
Thanks, jmsj

The peak pressure with the reloaded LeveRevolution powder actually was reached in a longer barrel distance; 12" vs 9" with the factory LeveRevolution vs 7-8" with normal powders and regular factory loads. My assumption is the shorter bearing surface and lighter weight 150 gr Winchester bullet is the reason. As the load worked up there was the classic steady increase of velocity and psi. The 40 gr load is a slight compression load with that Winchester bullet so getting more powder in isn't going to happen. I've another 10 rounds of the 40 gr load ready for a confirmation string tomorrow morning.

Larry Gibson

[Four Fingers of Death]

I reckon that would be AR2206H, repackaged for Hodgson. I must check that out.

[Larry Gibson]

Four Fingers

Don't know if that's the powder or not, mag articles all refer to it as a "specially blended" powder, whatever that means. If it quits raining I'm planning on shooting that confirmation string this afternoon. So far it seems a really good 30-30 powder for 150 and obviously 160 gr (the factory) bullets. Appears too slow for lighter bullets from the psi/es/sd of the velocity and psis in the the work up. Didn't start burning very efficiently at 38 gr with the 150 gr bullet. I'm anxious to see how it does under a heavier 311041.

They also use this powder in the .30 Marlin Express and the .35 Rem LeveRevolution ammo. I don't think it will give me any better performance than 4895 in the .35 Rem with the 35-200-FN cast bullet out of my M91 rebarreled Mauser. However, I'm wondering what it might do in the 14" twist Palma .308W rifle with the 160 gr 311466. Right now I'm pushing that at 2600 fps with right at 41,000 psi using AA4350. Be interesting to see if LeveRevelution or perhaps the new SuperPerformance powder can equal that velocity with less psi with the same accuracy.

May very well be a good application for LeveRevolution powder in the 7.62x39 with heavier 150 - 160 gr cast bullets in bolt actions(?).....probably in other cartridges too such as the .303, etc. because of the loading density and burning charactoristics of this powder......remains to be seen.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Results of 10 shot confirmation string with LeveRevoltion powder and the 150 gr Winchester PP 30-30 bullet. Reminder; testing was done in a 24" barreled M94AE Black Shadow rifle.

Before the results of the test load let's review factory 150 gr loads as tested in this same rifle. They range from 1975 fps with some older REM-UMCs up wards of 2301 fps with some new R-P and Federal 150 gr loads. The psi(M43) MAP of the 2300 fps loads was right at 38,800, pretty much where it should be given the temperature of the day and a commercial chamber/barrel used in testing. The old "Paco Kelly 150 gr load using H335 runs 2450 fps with the psi(M43) MAP at 40,200 with the highest psi at 42,500 psi. This would really be pushing the SAAMI MAP of 42,000 psi on a warmer day. Must be why I list it as a max load in my notes!

The LeveRevoltion load of 40 gr under the 150 gr PP in PMC cases with a WLR primer ran right at 2540 fps with a psi(M43) MAP of 37,000. The 10 shot velocity SD was 22 fps and the ES was 45 fps. The psi(M43) SD was 800 and the ES was 1,800. That is very uniform. Accuracy BTW was 2.4" 10 shot group at 100 yards with my tired old eyes and the aperture M66 rear sit with a post front sight, about the best I can do any more.

So for results we see a big performance gain of 240 fps over the fastest factory 150 gr ammunition and a 100 fps gain over the best reload with normal powder. All with less psi and better internal uniformity. The cost of the powder ($22.99/lb at the most expensive gunstore in town) is very comparable to any other newly manufactured canister powder available today. Certainly an excellent load with jacketed 150 gr bullets or the Hornady 160 gr FTX. I will definitely be trying this powder with 177 gr 311041s in the 30-30 and perhaps there might be some applications in the .308W.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Bill

According to some the M94AEs are "stronger" than vintage M94s. I don't know about that. Hornady says the LeveRevolution ammo is safe in M94s and by my pressure measurements it certainly is well within SAAMI pressure specs (42,000 psi) for the 30-30 in those vintage rifles. I've pressure tested 8 different factory 150 and 170 gr loads plus the LeveRevolution factory ammunition. Two of the standard factory loads produced a higher psi MAP than the LeveRevolution ammo.

What I did was to develop loads with 150 gr bullets using the LeveRevolution powder that equaled the factory LeveRevolutiion ammunition's psi. There is no data out there for other than the 160 FTX bullets so I was on my own developing the load. I pretty much was able to better the 160 FTX's velocity by 100 fps with the 150 gr bullets at the same psi. I've got 50 rounds loaded and I will test them in my own M94 Carbine. I got it for my 14th BD in April '61 at Sears so it was probably made in '60 and wouldn't take a chance on damaging it.

Given the slow time pressure curve of the LeveRevolutuion powder in the 30-30 with the 150/160 gr jacketed bullets I have high hopes for it pushing my 311041s.

Larry Gibson

[870TC]

Larry, Hodgdon is now listing a few loads for the Lever powder using non FTX bullets. Just go to there website and look in the "reloading data center" you have to search by caliber.
I have enjoyed reviewing your results so far and I'm very curious to see what you find with the 311041.

[Larry Gibson]

Larry, Hodgdon is now listing a few loads for the Lever powder using non FTX bullets. Just go to there website and look in the "reloading data center" you have to search by caliber.
I have enjoyed reviewing your results so far and I'm very curious to see what you find with the 311041.

Ah yes, they do now. I was going off a printed copy from when they first announced LeveRevolutions release. I see the max load listed is with the 150 gr bullet is with the base of the bullet at the base of the case neck. The 150 PPs base is shorter and allowed me to hit 40 gr at 100% loading density at just under the psi of the factory LeveRevolution rounds. That's why working up loads is essential when the componants used are different from the ones used in the manuals. Thanks for pointing the newer data out to me, I should have caught it myself:???:

Larry Gibson

[MtGun44]

My source at Hodgdon has been quite pleased with the new powders that they are selling.
He says that they will be a significant improvement for some specific applications. Looks
like Larry is verifying this for this powder. Very interesting, I wasn't able to get any tech
info on HOW the new powders work, just that they would be doing things that older powders
could not.

Bill

[grubbylabs]

Is there any data for this powder in a 444?

[Larry Gibson]

Is there any data for this powder in a 444?

I don't see any. Might be the 444 has a wrong expansion ratio for it as does the 45-70. LeveRevolution powder is not listed for the 45-70 either.

Larry Gibson

[mustanggt]

I have been waiting with bated breath for Superformance and LeverEvolution to come out. Dummy me since I was able to buy factory rounds for it I made the logical conclusion that there would be load data for 45/70 and 30-06. You'd think it would at least be in 30-06 one of the most common calibers. I hope they will eventually come out with it. Anyone know?

[Suo Gan]

Excellent write up, thanks for the effort. I will be very interested in hearing what it does with 311041.

[Larry Gibson]

So is it correct to say that LeveRevolution powder has a longer pressure curve? (like a dwell time)
Instead of greater pressure in the chamber it uses the barrel length to keep pressure going and fps increases ?

That is correct. Below are the M43 Pressure data from 2 tests; one with H335 and one with LeveRevolution, both with 150 gr bullets. Note the 100+ fps greater velocity at 3,000 less psi. You can also see the much slower time/pressure curve in the trace. The black tick mark is exit from barrel. Also the "Rise" is the measurement of the time/preesure in microseconds, note the much longer time numbers.

Larry Gibson

[gnoahhh]

This is an excellent thread. Thank you Larry. I too am interested in seeing the results with cast bullets. Do you plan on trying any that are heavier than 170 gr., such as 180 or 190 gr.?

[Larry Gibson]

From my limited experience pressure testing it LeveRevolution appears to hit it's lower optimal burning psi around 35 -36, 000 psi. Since the 30-30 case with the 150 gr Winchester PP and the 160 Hornady FTX was at 100% plus loading density I have not found the high end optimal psi. I imagine LeveRevolution powder with either weight bullet will provid optimal velocity at SAAMI pai's in a 300 Savage M99. I will get around to answering the high end optimal psi in the .308W one of these days. That should prove interesting as i will seel what it will do with a 155 gr Palma in my 27.5" Palma rifle. However, my next scheduled test with leveRevolution powder is in the M94AE 30-30 with 311041s as soon as I get some cast.

Larry Gibson

[GabbyM]

Larry if you'd like to test that with some RCBS 30-180-FN that weigh close to 200 grain I'd donate some to the test.

[Larry Gibson]

Gabby

Sounds like a plan but lets take it a step at a time and do the 311041s first. We'll see how that works out first and then a progression to the 200 gr bullets won't take so many because we'll have a baseline. Can you send 50 or perhaps 100? That way I can test them with 7 shot strings working up and then have enough to confirm with a couple 10 shot strings if it works out.

Larry Gibson

[Whit Spurzon]

Outstanding report and thread. THANK YOU for sharing your data with us. I'm very interested in seeing how this develops.

[GabbyM]

Gabby

Sounds like a plan but lets take it a step at a time and do the 311041s first. We'll see how that works out first and then a progression to the 200 gr bullets won't take so many because we'll have a baseline. Can you send 50 or perhaps 100? That way I can test them with 7 shot strings working up and then have enough to confirm with a couple 10 shot strings if it works out.

Larry Gibson

Yes I’ve about that many in a box. They should make decent target slugs cast from 2;6 plus solder.

I can’t do any 30-30 load development as that rifle is my daughters and she is out in AZ while I’m in IL. Her and her BF have put in for bear permits so a strong heavy bullet load would be nice.

Bullets are sized and close to .310” x .300”. I can reduce that size if you want but the mold tops out at .310”.

PM me when you want them. I’ll cover shipping.

My 30-30 load for RCBS 30-180-FN is a bunch of WW 760 for over 1,900 fps but the pressure is high.

I’d be happy with that 1,950 fps velocity from the Lever Revolution powder and an easier pressure level to save brass and gun. At 33 cents per case this three shot life span is ten cents a shot. Haven’t shot the load enough to secure a three shot brass life but that’s what I expect.

I’ve sent out several thousand of those big RCBS 30-180-FN over the last few years. Get calls and emails with OMG. Bang two step.

My daughter is about 115 ponds soaking wet so 1,950 fps with a 200 grain bullet form a Marlin 336 is enough recoil and then some. Probably have her boy friend sight it in. :popcorn:

[Larry Gibson]

PM on the way.

Larry Gibson

[Canuck Bob]

Outstanding work Larry!

Here's the required British Commonwealth question. What about suitability for the 303 Brit? It seems to fall within the case capacity range of the larger moderm 30 cal rimmed lever cartridges.

Edit: The LEE guide puts the 307W at 3.19 cc and the 303 Brit at 3.28 cc "useful capacity" whatever that means regarding different bullet weights.

[dnepr]

Outstanding work Larry!

Here's the required British Commonwealth question. What about suitability for the 303 Brit? It seems to fall within the case capacity range of the larger moderm 30 cal rimmed lever cartridges.

Edit: The LEE guide puts the 307W at 3.19 cc and the 303 Brit at 3.28 cc "useful capacity" whatever that means regarding different bullet weights.

I have had similar thought as the .303 british does well with reloader 15 , and so does the 30-30 , I am guessing that this powder with lighter bullets ( I am thinking 150's) would work well

[oscarflytyer]

Four Fingers

Don't know if that's the powder or not, mag articles all refer to it as a "specially blended" powder, whatever that means. If it quits raining I'm planning on shooting that confirmation string this afternoon. So far it seems a really good 30-30 powder for 150 and obviously 160 gr (the factory) bullets. Appears too slow for lighter bullets from the psi/es/sd of the velocity and psis in the the work up. Didn't start burning very efficiently at 38 gr with the 150 gr bullet. I'm anxious to see how it does under a heavier 311041.

They also use this powder in the .30 Marlin Express and the .35 Rem LeveRevolution ammo. I don't think it will give me any better performance than 4895 in the .35 Rem with the 35-200-FN cast bullet out of my M91 rebarreled Mauser. However, I'm wondering what it might do in the 14" twist Palma .308W rifle with the 160 gr 311466. Right now I'm pushing that at 2600 fps with right at 41,000 psi using AA4350. Be interesting to see if LeveRevelution or perhaps the new SuperPerformance powder can equal that velocity with less psi with the same accuracy.

May very well be a good application for LeveRevolution powder in the 7.62x39 with heavier 150 - 160 gr cast bullets in bolt actions(?).....probably in other cartridges too such as the .303, etc. because of the loading density and burning charactoristics of this powder......remains to be seen.

Larry Gibson

Larry

GREAT info! And great news on the LE powder. I have Marlin 336s in both 30-30 and 35 Rem. Working on load dev for the 35 - haven't even shot the 30-30 yet. Trying to find the LE powder locally for testing. Looks promising.

I would also be very interested in your 35 Rem load w/ the 4895. Using IMR or H? If you wouldn't mind PM'ing me the data, I would appreciate it. Thanx

Steve

[w30wcf]

Picked up a pound of the new Hodgdon LeveRevolution powder. I wanted to get a feel for this powder before attempting cast bullet loads. The suggested load on teh powder lable said 35.5 gr with the 160 gr FTX bullet. I didn't have any of those but wanted to see how that powder did with 150 gr jacketed. I've a supply of 150 gr Wonchester 30-30 PPs so I decided to work up a load with those. I started at 36 gr and worked up to 40 gr.

FLS'd PMC cases were used with WLR primers A LFCD was used to apply the crimp. AOL was 2.53". The rifle used for the test is my M94AE which has a strain gauge attached for psi measurements via the M43 Oehler PBL. The test was ran at TRRC range in University Place, 240 ft ASL with the temp at 48 degrees.

A 5 shot string of factory 160 LeveRevolution 160 gr FTX rounds were fired prior to the test to get a "reference" for velocity and the peak MAP (Maximum Average pressure). The factory ammo ran 2433 fps at 36,800 psi(M43). A previous test of that factory ammunition at 75 degrees gave 2452 fps at 37,800 psi(M43). The SAAMI MAP for the 30-30 is 42,000 psi. Given the temperature this morning I decided that a psi(M43) of 37,000 would be my MAP with the reloads.

Bottom line is 40 gr of LeveRevolution under that 150 gr PP is a 100% density load. It topped out at 37,100 psi(M43) with a velocity of 2551 fps. Accuracy for the 5 shots was 2.1" with the apurture sights. The time/pressure curve was not as steep with considerably more time under the "rise" than with the factory load. The peak psi was reached at mid barrel length (12") with the reload vs 9" with the factory load. Standard factory 150/170 gr jacketed load hit peak psi at 7 - 8" of barrel. Yes I can measure where the peak psi occurs in the barrel.

Some years back after reading Paco kelly's articles on loading for the newer M94s I developed a Paco 150 gr load using H335 in a similar M94AE with a 24" barrel. Loads were developed by watching primer back out and stopping when the primer was no longer backing out. This indicates there is then sufficient psi to be pushing the case back against the bolt. PO Ackley gives a very good description of this technique in his writings. I stopped 3 gr under what a current loading manual listed as max for that bullet at the tiem. Velocity was 2527 fps and accuracy was good. That load tested this morning revealed a MAP of 44,400 psi(M43), obviously over SAAMI's MAP for the 30-30.

Bottom line here is that the LeveRevolution Powder is allowing a very real 2550 fps with 150 gr jacketed bullet at factory level psi's below the SAAMI MAP. That's pretty darn good to me and is a worth while powder thus far tested. I'm looking forward to some 311041s over this powder in this M94AE.

Larry Gibson

Larry,
AWESOME report! Very interesting data. Thank you!

w30wcf

[w30wcf]

........My 30-30 load for RCBS 30-180-FN is a bunch of WW 760 for over 1,900 fps but the pressure is high......


Gabby,
Hmmm.......Back in 2003, GW who worked in the Hodgdon ballistics lab at the time (he has since retired) tested some of my .30-30 cartridges with a 205 gr. cast bullet. My load was 35.0 / H414 (same as W760) / WLR in Winchester brass.
The bullet seating depth was .60".
In Hodgdon's 24" barrel the average velocity was 2,033 f.p.s. s.d. 12 fps
The average pressure was 35,090 CUP s.d. 1,170 CUP

That pressure is almost 10% below SAMMI MAP so based on that, perhaps the pressure of your load is not as high as it seems(?).

w30wcf

[GabbyM]

Gabby,
Hmmm.......Back in 2003, GW who worked in the Hodgdon ballistics lab at the time (he has since retired) tested some of my .30-30 cartridges with a 205 gr. cast bullet. My load was 35.0 / H414 (same as W760) / WLR in Winchester brass.
The bullet seating depth was .60".
In Hodgdon's 24" barrel the average velocity was 2,033 f.p.s. s.d. 12 fps
The average pressure was 35,090 CUP s.d. 1,170 CUP

That pressure is almost 10% below SAMMI MAP so based on that, perhaps the pressure of your load is not as high as it seems(?).

w30wcf

That velocity is off the internet published data. Not my chronograph.
Is why I posted the term “a bunch” instead of an actual load.
Since my daughters Marlin 336 is a 20” barrel. 133 fps difference divided by 4” of barrel would be 33 fps per inch of barrel. So that’s about right I recon. I see I wrote “but the pressure is high”. Well that’s real technical isn’t it. Poor choice of words. I didn’t’ mean to imply it was over standard max pressure.

Note in my book says 35.0 gr WW760, 2080 fps at 35,100. 205gr cast Old West.
Data from laodswap dot com. Maybe that’s your data?
Then in my reoladers reference data base there is a 150 grain bullet load from CastData R1. Win 760 - 36 grains - 1932 fps. As you know 36 grains is a case full. In one of my fired not sized Rem cases 36 grains is up in the neck until you vibrate it to settle. Which is probably what stops the 150 grain load from going higher.

The RCBS 30-180-FN seats below the neck to about the base of the shoulder. Mine weighs around 200 grains. One cast from 2/6 alloy is 191 grains naked before gas check and lube. From 50/50 alloy finished they are within a grain of 200. Seams like as much bullet as you’d want in a 30-30. 35 grains WW760 is about as much as will comfortably fit in most cases.

Perhaps a 30-30 isn’t as hard on cases as I’ve been told by some.
30-30 is only a couple years old to us. Never worn any cases out as they only get rotated once year. Since the rifle is in AZ and I’m in IL. People have told me they only get 3 to 5 reloads from a 30-30 case when using full power J-bullets. Perhaps that’s atypical? Or maybe there idea of full power is books max plus a couple clicks on the powder measure.

Below are some 30 caliber boolits. Now that ugly one on the right is unfinished as it's heading to the melt pot. From left to right in photo. Saeco 140gr #630, Saeco 150gr #316, My custom 180gr FN. RCBS 30-180-FN, Lyman 200gr #311299. My custom 180 actually weighs 180 grains then the RCBS 30-180-FN is next to it.
My 180 grain is an oversize. cast .312" with a bore ride tapered up to .302" in front of the drive band. Small for a 303 Brit but will shoot in worn out US 30's and i'ts worked in a 7.7 Jap. Should work in a RUS.

http://castboolits.gunloads.com/picture.php?albumid=32&pictureid=460

[Irascible]

Good information. Thanks. Could you compare the bulk of this powder to another currently available powder? I am interested in how much case capacity it will use up.

[Larry Gibson]

Lee 2.8 cc scoop one time through powder and then card scraped top;

LeveRevolution; 43.6 gr
H4895; 37.8 gr
H335; 42.1 gr

The listed load of LeveRevolution powder with the 150 gr PP bullet was 100% loading density in the 30-30 case. It was slightly up into the case neck.

Larry Gibson

[GREENCOUNTYPETE]

very nice write up , i would be interested in the 165 170 gr numbers in lead if you ever get a chance

i like real numbers and tests great stuff

do you have any of the ranch dog 165 gr tumble lube gas checked boolits? that would be very interesting as i am looking at purchasing his mold when i can get the $ together.


how come no one ever told me in school that balistic scientist was a carreer field i would have been all over that.

[Larry Gibson]

No, I don't have the Ranch Dog 165. Though that is a nice bullet I've a very good Lyman 311041HP mold that is very hard to beat....at least I haven't found another cast bullet to beat it yet. I have a sililar GB 150 gr mould and it is also a very good buullet. Down the road I might have to test it also.

I would assume, based on experience, that the 165 RD cast bullet would do as well with perhaps a bit less psi as the 160 FTX bullet in the 30-30. If you a 12" twist 24" barrel then 2400+ fps with that bullet would be a deadly combination on deer for sure. A 10" twist Marlin 24" barrel might do okay also with that slow LeveRevolution powder. So much to learn, so little time.......

Larry Gibson.

[w30wcf]

That velocity is off the internet published data. Not my chronograph.
.......Note in my book says 35.0 gr WW760, 2080 fps at 35,100. 205gr cast Old West. Data from laodswap dot com. Maybe that’s your data?
Then in my reoladers reference data base there is a 150 grain bullet load from CastData R1. Win 760 - 36 grains - 1932 fps. As you know 36 grains is a case full. In one of my fired not sized Rem cases 36 grains is up in the neck until you vibrate it to settle. Which is probably what stops the 150 grain load from going higher.

The RCBS 30-180-FN seats below the neck to about the base of the shoulder. Mine weighs around 200 grains. One cast from 2/6 alloy is 191 grains naked before gas check and lube. From 50/50 alloy finished they are within a grain of 200. Seams like as much bullet as you’d want in a 30-30. 35 grains WW760 is about as much as will comfortably fit in most cases.

Perhaps a 30-30 isn’t as hard on cases as I’ve been told by some........


Gabby,
I had originally posted that data on the Beartooth Bullet forum in LoadSwap
http://www.loadswap.com/display.php?action=view_load&table=Rifle_Data&bullet_weight=205&cartridge_id=254
so it may have been reprinted substituting W760 for H414. The 2,080 f.p.s. was taken from the 26" barrel of my 1894-1994 Centennial rifle.

The reason the velocity is less with the lighter bullet is that there is not enough resistance to get the slower H414 / W760 to burn more efficiently.

My RCBS 180 weighs 188 grs. lubed and gas checked in w.w. + 2% tin alloy.
The gas check heel is not as long as the one on your bullet.

Regarding .30-30 cases, if a rifle as excess headspace, case separations are likely after a few loadings with factory equivalent reloads. The same can be said with other calibers / rifles as well.

I have some .30-30 cases that have seen 20+ reloadings that are still going strong.

Here's a pic of some of the heavy bulleted .30-30 cartridges I use.
The cartridge tested was number 3.

http://i116.photobucket.com/albums/o25/w30wcf/30-30Heaviesjpg.jpg

w30wcf

[Larry Gibson]

GabbyM

Preliminary test today shows 35 gr load of 760 under your 197.2 gr cast bullet running at 2003 fps with 34,400 psi(M43) out of my 24" barreled M94AE 30-30. A 36 gr load running at 2047 at 36,100 psi(M43). Ten shot confirmation test strings are scheduled. Looks like the LeveRevolution powder may pick up 160 - 200 fps at same psi but test is too limited at this time to know. Just a heads up.

Larry Gibson

[w30wcf]

Larry,
Many thanks for your efforts and the data on the Leverevolution powder.:-D

w30wcf

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
Many thanks for your efforts and the data on the Leverevolution powder.:-D

w30wcf

I've confirmation 10 shot strings with the 311041HP and the 30-180-FN using the LeveRevolution powder and the 30-180-FN with 760 powder. Just waiting for a chance to test. Hopefully tomorrow or it will have to wait for 10+ days.

Larry Gibson

[w30wcf]

Larry,
Thank you in advance for the data. You are breaking new ground with the LeveRevolution powder and heavier cast bullets.[smilie=w:

I look forward to your test results.......

w30wcf

[Guzziac]

As I understand it the story on the new Hogdon Leverrevolution and Superperformance powders ties to a Mr. Emery . He was previously in the employ of NASA in propellants for rockets. Mr. Emery, working for Hornady, has developed these new powders in cooperation with Hogdon to do exactly what Larry's M43 has shown. They are specially formulated to delay peak preasure in the preasure curve. This has enabled an increase in velocity while staying within normal preasure maximums.
It is the technology behind the Hornady Light and heavy Magnum and Leverevolution products.
So far I've been sitting on the sidelines as I haven't purchased any of the new powders yet. My health keeps me throttled back considerable, and now the heat here in Louisiana has been running mid 80's at night and at and over 100 in the day. Add in a good supply of mosquitos and you get the picture, so maybe in the fall, if I can get feeling better , I'll give some a try in my Marlins.
Great work Larry, I'm very interested in the heavy cast 30-30 testing as I have the RCBS 30-180 and like it's design very much. Also please give us some feedback useing 170gr. jacketed in the 30-30 with the LR powder.
Guzziac,
Richard P.

[wiljen]

Knowing that they have the technology to create a powder with a longer duration at peak pressure, I wonder how long it will be until all the other hodgdon powders get the same treatment.

[NHlever]

Larry, thanks for the great information on the new powder. My dealer has it in stock, but I haven't tried any yet. I have too much ammo loaded up with various test loads using standard powders that I have to test first. To the poster that has medical issues holding him back, I'm there too, but have managed to get out to shoot some. The bugs are dying down a bit here now in the day time so it's time to hit the range with a bag full of guns, and ammo again.

[G. Blessing]

fantastic read, great info!

I was recently buying some of the fancy leverlution bullets to try loading, and saw the powder. I considered it, but figured If I don't like the bullets, then I'm stuck with a powder that probably doesn't have data available for cast. So I skipped getting any. I'll have to get some now!

I am really looking forward to seeing how this new powder performs with the 200grn cast. That's what I'm loading for a heavy moose hunting load, 200grn (Lee RN) @ 2000fps(30grns of 4320 gets about 2050fps), but I'm only "pretty sure" that my load is pressure safe. Looks like this new powder could do it, and having a pressure test on it, to be 100% sure would be fabulous!

G.

[Larry Gibson]

I'm back from EOT World Championship so will get to the confirmation testing, maybe tomorrow.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Got a chance to test the confirmation 10 shot strings today out of the M94 AE with 24" barrel.

Results are;

GabbyM's RCBS 30-180-FNs/197.5 gr/BHN 17.5
36 gr Win 760
R-P case
Rem 9 1/2 primer
2.522 OAL
2066 fps (corrected to muzzle)
1870 ft/lbs of energy
200 yard velocity; 1438 fps
906 ft/lbs of energy
SD 17 fps
ES 56 fps
MAP; 36,200 psi(M43)

Lyman 311041 HP/50/50 WW/pb + 2% tin/177 gr
34.5 gr Hodgdon LeveRevolution
FC cases
Rem 9 1/2 primer
OAL; 2.55
2218 fps (corrected to Muzzle)
1935 ft/lbs of energy
200 yard velocity; 1554 fps
950 ft/lbs of energy
SD; 19 fps
ES; 37 fps
MAP; 35,800 psi(M43)

A 5 shot string of LeveRevolution with the 30-180-FN bullet looked very promising at 2247 fps with 38,700 psi(M43). That's about a 190 fps gain over the Win 760 load. Remaining velocity at 200 yards is around 1600 fps with 1000+ ft/lbs of energy.

GabbyM; hard copy of Win 760 load data will be in the mail tomorrow.

Larry Gibson

[GabbyM]

Thanks Larry
Those are some nice numbers. Very much appreciate your work on this project.

[felix]

Hopefully, Larry, they found a way for a new and improved method for blending two powders, making a an alloy in effect. If they do it in the liquid stage, that would be ideal. The demise of the WW630 was because the blending was after the fact using obviously two different lots, one pure ball, and another severely flattened ball. Transportation difficulties galore. That 630 speed, exactly between BlueDot and 2400, has never been duplicated, and is one of my favorites. I still have about 4 pounds left. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

GabbyM

You're welcome. My 30-30 hunting load for that rifle is now the 311041 HP load. Zeroed at 150 yards it is 1.23 high at 50, 1.9 high at 100 and only 4.9 low at 200 yards, plenty flat enough for deer hunting. With 1550 fps remaining at 200 yards expansion should be very good with that alloyed HP bullet. Will have to test this load in my M94 Carbine (pre 64) since the psi is entirely safe and under many if not most factory 30-30 loads.

Have to admit that RCBS bullet looks aweful good too!

Larry Gibson

[w30wcf]

Larry,
Thank you very much for your efforts and data in this arena.

PLease let us know what the powder charge of Leverevolution was that you used with the RCBS bullet.

Thank you,
w30wcf

[Larry Gibson]

Larry,
Thank you very much for your efforts and data in this arena.

PLease let us know what the powder charge of Leverevolution was that you used with the RCBS bullet.

Thank you,
w30wcf

36 gr of LeveRevolution with the 30-180-FN. Sorry, meant to put that in the post. The psi, while not at the 42,000 MAP for the 30-30 is still getting up there so start lower (suggest 34 gr) and work up. I know you will but just want to add that caution for others.

Larry Gibson

[MakeMineA10mm]

Hopefully, Larry, they found a way for a new and improved method for blending two powders, making a an alloy in effect. If they do it in the liquid stage, that would be ideal. The demise of the WW630 was because the blending was after the fact using obviously two different lots, one pure ball, and another severely flattened ball. Transportation difficulties galore. That 630 speed, exactly between BlueDot and 2400, has never been duplicated, and is one of my favorites. I still have about 4 pounds left. ... felix

Sorry for the off topic jaunt, but I'll make it brief. AL-8 was in that same burning speed zone, and it's gone now too.

These two powders (W630 and AL-8) are very tantilizing for us 10mm afficionados... And, you're right, nothing has come out that quite duplicates this.

[w30wcf]

36 gr of LeveRevolution with the 30-180-FN. Sorry, meant to put that in the post. The psi, while not at the 42,000 MAP for the 30-30 is still getting up there so start lower (suggest 34 gr) and work up. I know you will but just want to add that caution for others.
Larry Gibson

Larry,
THank you for that info. Advice heeded.
197.5 / 36.0 / LR / 9 1/2 / 2,247 fps / 38,700 psi(M43) / 24" bbl
That is impressive!.....A bit more than factory velocity with a cast bullet almost 30 grs. heavier and well within SAMMI specs! :drinks:

Interestingly, 30-30 LeveRevolution cartridges I have dissected contained 35.5-36.0 grs of powder. Would it be possible that similar pressures are developed with the same amount of powder behind a 160 jacketed bullet vs a 197.5 gr cast?

Understandably, a different lot of powder could = a sligtly different result but it is an interesting comparison.

w30wcf


.

[Larry Gibson]

w30wcf

Interestingly, 30-30 LeveRevolution cartridges I have dissected contained 35.5-36.0 grs of powder. Would it be possible that similar pressures are developed with the same amount of powder behind a 160 jacketed bullet vs a 197.5 gr cast?

While I've tested LeveRevolution quite a bit with 150 gr jacketed, the 160 gr FTX, 311041s and the 30-180-FNs it appears, regardles of the bullet weight and type, the powder doesn't start burning efficiently until the load gets to 100% loading density. That is 34.5 - 40 gr depending on type and weight of bullet.

I loaded up through 36 gr with the 311041 but only gained 67 fps. The time/pressure curves were flattening out at the top end and not as consistant as the 34.5 gr load. Besides the 10 shot group with that alloyed (WW/pb at 50/50 2% tin) whas the best I have shot with that rifle so far[smilie=w:

Larry Gibson

[w30wcf]

Larry,
Thank you for the update. Sounds like you are getting great results!
I guess I'll have to breakdown and by a lb. to try.......

w30wcf

[Trailblazer]

Thanks for your work Larry. Impressive results with the heavy cast bullets! Thanks for posting the image of the pressure curves too. Interesting the way the top of the curve flattens. It looks like this stuff is for real.

I tried the LVR powder with 130 Barnes TSX's in a Model 64 Winchester. I know, not a traditional lever action bullet, but I have to hunt with copper slugs here and the 150 TSX has a BC somewhat south of a brick. I have a scout scope on the Model 64 and point blank range with the 130 TSX is 250 yards, which is nice in the country I hunt.

Anyway my top velocities with conventional powders and the 130TSX are about 2500 FPS before the action gets a little sticky to open. Three rounds with 38.5 grains of LVR(Hodgdons top load with 150's) and the 130 TSX chronoed at 2644, 2649 and 2654 FPS with normal extraction and pushed out primers. So a 150 FPS improvement over conventional powders and very consistent velocities.

Since the primers were pushed out and the load wasn't stretching the brass I tried 39.5 grains and things got out of hand. Three rounds chronoed at 2748, 2811 and 2774 FPS. The round clocked at 2811 gave a little stick to opening the action and the primer was flush with the case head so a little to hot! The thing is velocities increased over 100 FPS and velocities got erratic with just one more grain of the LVR powder. It looks like it got out of its comfort zone very quickly! Might be better to approach the top end in half grain increments with LVR.

The Model 64 has a tight bore so I tried the 38.5/130 TSX load in a Marlin 336A with the same length 24" barrel. Three rounds went 2519, 2527 and 2539 FPS. Over 100 FPS slower than the Model 64 but still uniform velocities. The increasing velocities with each shot may suggest that the powder is temp sensitive also. Or it could be fouling building up in the barrel since I started with a clean barrel in both rifles. However Hodgdon does not list LVR with the Extreme powders so it is more temp sensitive than the Extreme's. Incidentally the grains are highly flattened spheres.

[felix]

Incidentally the grains are highly flattened spheres.

Yep, the powder is a slow powder by composition. Flattening increases ignition speed, and slows the burn speed. Nothing really new, but the concept on doing this to get the results as ADVERTISED is. I would like to see the composition of the balls compared to other others in the same advertised speed, like a 844-846. A difference would indicate something new was involved. It's sad the powder does not include an ambient temperature regulator. Well, maybe it does and we have not seen it in action for real. ... felix

[Larry Gibson]

Trailblazer

That 130 gr TSX appears to be giving higher psi and velocities as the 150 gr bullets. Probably because the harder TSX bullet offsets the lessor weight(?). My results also shown a fairly narrow "comfort zone" for LVR powder. Looks like the 38.5 gr load with that 130TSX is right where it wants to be. The 150 fps gain with obvious less psi of that load over conventional powders is where the "gain" comes in.

In my confirmation 10 shot string tests I start with a clean barrel and shoot 2 "foulers" before the record 10 shots. This as SAAMI recommends. In checking my results where I recorded the data from the 1st 2 shots it does appear the the loads shot "faster" with the fouled bore. In your case the TSX may be providing some fouling also(?). During the 10 shot test record strings the velocities fluctuated up and down within the ES with no "progessively" apparent increase as the barrel warmed.

If the accuracy is there that 130TSX load should be a dandy for deer hunting there in California. 2660+ actual muzzle velocity out of the M64 isn't too shabby:grin:

Larry Gibson

[Trailblazer]

Yes the 38.5 grain load looks like it is in a good place. The TSX does generate more pressure than conventional bullets. I had the 125 Ballistic Tip going 2740 FPS with the top load in Hodgdon's old #26 manual.

I need to do more testing with the LVR for sure. My first test was just to see velocities. Those copper bullets are expensive so I parcel them out grudgingly. The group was pretty big but that rifle really needs to be recrowned before I do anything else with it. My previous 130 TSX load shot into 2" at 100 yards. The rifle was very accurate with the Speer 130 FN and a moderate load of RL-7. As velocity and muzzle pressure increase the group size increases too.

The Barnes tech told me one of the limits on the 130 TSX is that it has to be going at least 2000 FPS for reliable expansion so a little more muzzle velocity is a good thing. He said the TTSX will expand down to about 1800 FPS. I have a box of those now so I will try those after I recrown the muzzle.

I carried the Model 64 last fall with the 130 TSX load. I had the opportunity to kill a barely legal little buck at 100 yards. He was chasing a doe around the canyon and ended up laying down right below me. I just couldn't bring myself to drop the hammer on the little fart. The thing is I could have killed him with any old 30-30 load.

[RPRNY]

Very late to the party here but, for posterity, I thought I would record my recent experiences with Leverevolution.

1968 Marlin 336 Texan 30-30

Load: 35.5 gr Leverevolution, 160 gr FTX, WLR primer, Win Brass


Good accuracy with Williams peep sight. Very stiff recoil, flattened and cratered primers. Too hot in my rifle. I will start next load at 34grs and see what we get.

[MGD]

When I tried leverevolution and the flex tip bullet in my 30-30 AI, all expectations were exceeded. I wont talk about the groups, don't want to here that the gun cant shoot that accurately, again. I have been using everything else up, and stopped using anything else for deer. It makes sense that i works so well when you consider that Hornady engineered the powder and bullet for one load for one type of gun.

[popper]

Still have 2 boxes of FTX on the shelf I'll use when I run out of lead. With the RD311170, 30 gr GC's and 21 for FB, 1:10 20" 336. 35 gr wasn't easy on the shoulder.

[Gray Fox]

Larry:

I may have asked this via a PM way back when you worked up the 311041HP loads, but if so can't find it. What lube did you use to handle that velocity? GF

[Larry Gibson]

I used Javelina (NRA 50/50 formula) which is no longer available. I find 2500+ to an excellent HV lube that works as well.

Larry Gibson

[Gray Fox]

Larry:

Thanks for the information. I'll have to find out where I can order some of that lube. GF

[Larry Gibson]

Larry:

Thanks for the information. I'll have to find out where I can order some of that lube. GF

Bottom of this page; LsStuff.com

Larry Gibson

[Gray Fox]

Larry, thanks for the info. GF

[W.R.Buchanan]

Larry: Is Paco Kelly still around? I have been trying to get ahold of him for several weeks to no avail. I've tried emailing his tool website and his regular (I think) email addy.

He has some .410 loading tools I want.

Randy

[OnHoPr]

Not to hijack but to ask for possible powder relationship info as a side note if you have experienced it. I have appreciated your writings as myself being just a touch above a boolit bub experience sometimes they can go over my head, but they are written down and I can search for those writings in the spin and grab of the learning curve. I was looking at LVR powder a couple of years ago for that gentler push like from 4064 to 4350 in the 30-30, but GM had that reloading supply sale back about then and I picked up 1 lb then three more of imr 4007ssc because it shot decent. On burn rate charts the two are very comparable. I was wondering if you have ever tried the 4007ssc and if the velocities were similar to LVR with comparable powder charges.

[358 Win]

72143http://i824.photobucket.com/albums/zz169/bobddville/Gun%20Collection%20Photos/IMAG0024.jpg (http://s824.photobucket.com/user/bobddville/media/Gun%20Collection%20Photos/IMAG0024.jpg.html)

Larry, I did a test of LVR powder also. This target is from my 1957 (ballard rifled) .32 Win Special. Load was 38.5gr of LVR, the 182gr RCBS 08-170 boolit, Javelina Alox lube,
WW cases and a CCI250 primer. Velocity was 2300fps and group is five shots @ 50 yards with a Leupold VXI, 2x7x33. I don't have pressure testing equipment, but the load functioned and extracted normally with no "apparent" signs of high pressure. Looks like a super deer load. What do you think?
358 Win

Note: I just added a picture of my Marlin 336SC used to shoot the attached target.

[superbee]

358 Win,

That does indeed look like a super deer load. Nice shooting!

Your group was centered on the upper edge of the bullseye @ 50 yards. If you adjusted your scope so that you were dead on at 150 yards, where would the bullet strike at 50 yards and at 100 yards with this load?

Again, great load and great shooting!

[Larry Gibson]

Larry: Is Paco Kelly still around? I have been trying to get ahold of him for several weeks to no avail. I've tried emailing his tool website and his regular (I think) email addy.

He has some .410 loading tools I want.

Randy

I have not heard of his passing so I assume he is. However, he is getting pretty "long in the tooth" (aren't we all........) so he may be slowing down. Or he could just be busy doing something else and not monitering his emails......like out in the bush somewhere hunting ('tis the season in Africa, South America and NZ/Austrailia......wish I were there.....). Otherwise I don't know.

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

Not to hijack but to ask for possible powder relationship info as a side note if you have experienced it. I have appreciated your writings as myself being just a touch above a boolit bub experience sometimes they can go over my head, but they are written down and I can search for those writings in the spin and grab of the learning curve. I was looking at LVR powder a couple of years ago for that gentler push like from 4064 to 4350 in the 30-30, but GM had that reloading supply sale back about then and I picked up 1 lb then three more of imr 4007ssc because it shot decent. On burn rate charts the two are very comparable. I was wondering if you have ever tried the 4007ssc and if the velocities were similar to LVR with comparable powder charges.

The problem with LvRevolution powder is they have to put it "somewhere" on the charts. It's much slower and elongated time/pressure curve makes it almost impossible to "correctly" place on a chart with powders having normal type time/pressure curves. Sorry I have not tried the 4007ssc yet and with the current shortage of any powder on dealer shelves who knows when I can even get around to it?

Larry Gibson

[Larry Gibson]

358 Win

Now that's what we're talking!!!!!!

Having run up to 37.5 gr LvR powder in the 30-30 under a 180 gr bullet and still being under SAAMI MAP we can pretty much be assured your load is also under the SAAMI MAP. Awesome!

Be glad when this panic buying is over with and we get some pwoder back on the shelves........


Larry Gibson

[358 Win]

358 Win,

That does indeed look like a super deer load. Nice shooting!

Your group was centered on the upper edge of the bullseye @ 50 yards. If you adjusted your scope so that you were dead on at 150 yards, where would the bullet strike at 50 yards and at 100 yards with this load?

Again, great load and great shooting!

superbee, I have not done extensive long range tests with this load. I have shot it at 100 yards and was 1" high of dead center or about 1/2" higher than the 50 yard setting. I'm guessing, and I do mean guessing here that at 150 yards it would be at the bottom edge of the bullseye and another inch or so lower at 200 yards. I don't know the BC of this bullet right off the top of my head or I'd run a graph out to 250 yards or so.
Maybe I'm being too optimistic on my guesstimation! Maybe Larry can help out based on his experience with 180 grain cast boolits in the 30-30.
What say you Mr. Gibson?
358 Win

[358 Win]

358 Win

Now that's what we're talking!!!!!!

Having run up to 37.5 gr LvR powder in the 30-30 under a 180 gr bullet and still being under SAAMI MAP we can pretty much be assured your load is also under the SAAMI MAP. Awesome!

Be glad when this panic buying is over with and we get some pwoder back on the shelves........


Larry Gibson

Larry, thanks for the confirmation on my supposition that my .32 Win Special load with LVR powder and my RCBS 08-170, 182gr cast not being into the red line zone as far as pressure. I have to size that 08-170 boolit @ .3225 or my .32 Specials will not shoot worth a hoot. The Ranch Dog 323-170 has to be sized .323 or my four .32 Specials don't like it. My target/walk about load in my .32 Specials is the same 08-170 boolit with 16.0 grains of Alliant 2400 powder for right at 1650fps. I have been using that load for over 30 years now and my experimentation has proven over and over again that the FED 215 Magnum primer gives me significantly tighter groups, lower extreme spreads and much lower average deviation between shots. I'm willing to bet that the group fired above would shrink if I choose to use the FED 215 instead of the CCI 250 primer. It seems with such a non case filling load like 16.0 grains of 2400 powder would require a filler of some sort but the FED 215 Magnum primer takes care of igniting that small powder charge, no matter where it's laying in the case.
358 Win

[DLCTEX]

I saw an article or video of Mr. Emery talking about the powder and he said it was limited in usefulness to certain cartridges and that is why they don't list more cartridges than you find. Other powders are just better in some cases.

[rockrat]

I use 37.5gr in the 30-30 with the gb Lee 195gr rnfp boolit that has 3 crimp grooves. I shoot it in my XLR with excellent results. have been playing with the 38.5gr lvr and the speer 130fp. Haven't chrono'd it, but the xlr and a friends Sav 24 shoot very good groups with it also.

Also use lvr in my 356win (30-30 xlr that JES rebored/rechambered)

[superbee]

superbee, I have not done extensive long range tests with this load. I have shot it at 100 yards and was 1" high of dead center or about 1/2" higher than the 50 yard setting. I'm guessing, and I do mean guessing here that at 150 yards it would be at the bottom edge of the bullseye and another inch or so lower at 200 yards. I don't know the BC of this bullet right off the top of my head or I'd run a graph out to 250 yards or so.
Maybe I'm being too optimistic on my guesstimation! Maybe Larry can help out based on his experience with 180 grain cast boolits in the 30-30.
What say you Mr. Gibson?
358 Win

358 Win,

Thanks. It looks like that zero would extend pointblank range considerably past 150 yards. Impressive performance from the 32 W.S. !

[Larry Gibson]

superbee, I have not done extensive long range tests with this load. I have shot it at 100 yards and was 1" high of dead center or about 1/2" higher than the 50 yard setting. I'm guessing, and I do mean guessing here that at 150 yards it would be at the bottom edge of the bullseye and another inch or so lower at 200 yards. I don't know the BC of this bullet right off the top of my head or I'd run a graph out to 250 yards or so.
Maybe I'm being too optimistic on my guesstimation! Maybe Larry can help out based on his experience with 180 grain cast boolits in the 30-30.
What say you Mr. Gibson?
358 Win

With 30 cal cast bullets cast soft and mildly HP'd in the 2000 - 2100 fps range I've found 200 yards to be the practical maximum range for trajectory and enough retained velocity to ensure good expansion. With LvRevolution powder boosting the velocities of some cartridges (with the slower 12 - 16" barrel twists) to the 2300 fps range with those softer cast bullets I've no doubt most such cast bullets will have sufficient retained velocity at 250 yards for reliable expansion also. Thus the increased velocity is increasing the effective range on both accounts. When I can get some more LvRevolution powder I will be doing much more experimenting, particularly in the 30-30 and my 26" barreled 35 Remington.

Larry Gibson

[cwheel]

Very good info Larry. I would like to see the factory do more cast boolit testing in the future, publish the data, see what it might do with lite 150gc's in 30:30 as well. Was passed a almost new lee 150 gc mold that I'd like to try. Also wondering what Hornady LV powder might do in 38-55 and 444. Might be the density requirements won't work in larger cases, but thinking if this stuff works well in 30:30 with heavy boolits, should be right at home in the 38:55 case, it's almost the same case. Bet powder charges are going to be somewhat reduced with a 265 gc. Looks like from your testing the Hornady LV powder has a longer dwell time and peak pressures are lower in 30:30. Without the equipment to properly measure pressure I'm a little reluctant to stray to far from the published loads for 38:55 with a 1917 Winchester 94. I know this one should be good for 40k pressure, and the Winchester big bore 444 should go 50K. Still, in the older rifle, want to keep pressure down below 30K and speed with a 265 gc around 1600 fps to hunt with.
Chris

[hunter64]

Thanks Larry for the write up. Powder is really scarce in my neck of the woods in Northern Alberta and I keep a list of powders I use encase I am in a store and they have some powder left that I can buy. I was in a store yesterday and they had a sign with all the powders that they carry and 90% of them had a line thru them stating they are out. They had LvRevolution in the 1lb and 4 lb jugs and lots of it and I didn't even pay attention to it. After reading this write up I am going to go back and pick up a few lbs.

[patsher]

I am wondering how this would perform in my old Winchester 25-35. Light boolits, I know. I have molds for 80, 100, and 120 gr. Too light for LvR?

[Larry Gibson]

I am wondering how this would perform in my old Winchester 25-35. Light boolits, I know. I have molds for 80, 100, and 120 gr. Too light for LvR?

My guess is the bullets will be too light. Might work with the 120's or jacketed. LvRevolution powder needs a certian resistance to burn efficiently. That is either from bullet weight with cast or friction from jacketed. In the 30-30 with jacketed LvR didn't burn efficiently with any jacketed lower than 150 gr and with any lighter cast than 170 with the bullets I used.

Larry Gibson

[NYBushBro]

Mr. Gibson,

Thanks for this thread... the data is excellent.

When LvR is available again, I'd be interested in pressure tests concerning how it does with heavier cast slugs in the 35 REM. Here in the Northeast (and online as well), just about every powder has been unavailable so far this year... hopefully that will change (sooner rather than later.)

[NYBushBro]

Shameless bump...

[texassako]

I probably would not have tried LvR with cast in my Remington autoloaders without Larry's write up in this thread. It is working out well on initial tests of .30 Rem in a Remington Model 81 and Lee C309-170-F, and worked great in .32 Rem in a Remington Model 8 using Accurate's 32-155L. I have yet to try it in the .25 Rem(sight issue) or .35 Rem(lack of a mold), but G&A did a pretty good write up in June that included .25-35 117gr loads that is giving me an idea of what it could do in my .25 Rem. They also showed results in .30-30 that back up Larry's heavier bullet advice, the light ones <150gr were not better than other powders.

[NYBushBro]

I have a Rem. Model 8 in 35 REM (and I believe they have a 1:16 twist) that I have never loaded cast bullets for.

Keep us informed regarding your experience with LVR in the Remington auto-loaders please.

[357maximum]

I too am awaiting patiently the 35REM results as i have a pre-micro 336SC and 91 mauser in 35rem to feed and that 8lber of Leverlution powder sitting at my powder dealer is likely about to follow me home.

[Newtire]

Great writeup Larry. I have been getting around 2450 fps with that 160 grain FTX bullet out of my 20" barrelled Ackley Improved .30-30 and 35 grains of H-335. Looks like this newer powder makes that close to doable without the hassle of "Ackleyizing". Now, I'm curious what that stuff would do in an Ackley version! I'm not about to try as I don't have the equipment of know-how to approach that. What a lot of work and thanks for all that effort!

[cwheel]

After finding the loading data on LvR powder, noticed how limited the data is. Sure a marked improvement in some loadings. The 2 rounds I'm interested in trying it in are 38-55 and 444. I notice that in Hornady's loading data, they don't use it or have it listed with their 265gr. FTX boolit, bet there is a reason why. Nothing close to a listing for either of those. Not going to be the first to try, unlike Larry, don't have even close to proper pressure testing gear to do a safe workup. In time, I'm sure more rounds will be tested with this stuff, it will be interesting to watch.
Chris

[Larry Gibson]

Thanks for the comments guys, was my pleasure to do the testing and share the knowledge here.

Larry Gibson

[cwheel]

Next run of 30:30 cast, I'll sure give it a test. That is if we can ever find it here, powder supplies within 100 miles are somewhat limited here. People driving over from CA have kept stock in our local stores quite M/T. Must be hard to find anything over there. The data used in the new Hornady reloading manual ( 9th edition ) doesn't show LvR used in with the 444 FTX reloads, I'm sure there is a reason. Thought the LvR powder would have been a key to getting the increased performance out of 444 just like the 30:30, guess that is not the case. Notice with that one using the FTX bullets, the cases have to be trimmed .150 or so less than normal. Guess once you have done that with your brass, you are committed to using their product. Like to stick with cast where ever possible.


Chris

[35remington]

Regarding 35 Remington possible results:

Using the lighter bullets in the 180-200 grain range there was little LVR could do that other powders could not in terms of velocity. For example, a caseful of LVR gave 2160-2200 fps with the 200 RN's and this can be duplicated or exceeded with pressures suitable for a 336 with several other powders. I do presume pressures are low to lower with LVR, though.

It was when the deeply seated 200 FTX and 220 Speer were used that LVR began to shine. With a charge of 43 grains 2200 fps was possible with the 220 Speer at low apparent pressures in two 20" microgroove Marlin 336's. Repeatedly reloading a single case with the 200 FTX and 220 Speer using this charge (neck sizing only!) revealed very little case stretch per shot and very long life......I reloaded a single case 42 times before giving up, and it was not ready for its second trimming.

Running the case over an RCBS Casemaster revealed no thinning of the brass near the head after this 42 firings. If the 200 FTX and 220 Speer are used LVR will enable decent velocities at low pressures and IMO is the only way to go with the 220 Speer. No other powder comes anywhere near this case life at this velocity using the 220 Speer.....not 2520, H4895, TAC or any of the other powders formerly regarded as suitable for such use.

So with LVR in the 35 give me heavy 200+ grain deeply seated bullets. I'll pass with the 180 Speer and 200 RN's, but will use nothing else with the FTX and 220 Speer. Factory velocities of 2225 fps with the 200 FTX claimed for a 24" barrel can pretty much be equaled with my 20 inch using a 43 grain charge.

[LeftyDon]

Larry, thanks for the report. I found a large jug of LVR before everything dried up and I'll be working up some 30 Remington loads shot to be from a Remington 14 over this winter. Hope to have lots of range time while recovering from knee replacement surgery. I expect to see the same results as your 30-30's, I guess. I have large qty of 150 and 170 grain Sierra RNFP's and some Hornady 150's to work through before trying lead boolits and I've been told by a Remington Owners Forum guru that FTX bullets won't feed in these old pump guns and so don't have any plans to load any of them if I have to hand feed them.

[CPL Lou]

Thanks Larry for putting forth this effort and sharing it with us ! [smilie=s:
Now if I could get my hands on that RCBS mold for my 30-30

CPL Lou

[tygar]

My guess is the bullets will be too light. Might work with the 120's or jacketed. LvRevolution powder needs a certian resistance to burn efficiently. That is either from bullet weight with cast or friction from jacketed. In the 30-30 with jacketed LvR didn't burn efficiently with any jacketed lower than 150 gr and with any lighter cast than 170 with the bullets I used.

Larry Gibson

Good info as always. Have you got any good loading info for LeverR for the 30-30 worked up yet? I have a Savage 99 (1920s vintage) that shoots good with lighter jacketed bullets & OK with the 160 LeverR factory but havn't got good results yet on 150-173gr cast as yet.

Have several 309-311, 170, 180gr & just ordered NOE 195gr.
Thanks
Tom

[Larry Gibson]

Tygar

Reread posts 49 - 58. Loads were developed fo cast. Data there should fit your needs.

Larry Gibson

[tygar]

[QUOTE=Larry Gibson;1325935]Got a chance to test the confirmation 10 shot strings today out of the M94 AE with 24" barrel.

Results are;

GabbyM's RCBS 30-180-FNs/197.5 gr/BHN 17.5
36 gr Win 760
R-P case
Rem 9 1/2 primer
2.522 OAL

Is that correct? A 197gr (not 180/177) bullet over 36.0gr Win 760?

"While I've tested LeveRevolution quite a bit with 150 gr jacketed, the 160 gr FTX, 311041s and the 30-180-FNs it appears, regardles of the bullet weight and type, the powder doesn't start burning efficiently until the load gets to 100% loading density. That is 34.5 - 40 gr depending on type and weight of bullet. "

From what you wrote about 34.5-40gr LveR from 150-180, can I infer that we could use 40gr with 150s & correspondingly less for 160, 170, 180 down to 34.5?

Thanks again. You must have a doctorette in bulletology.
Tom

[30hrrtt]

Would there be sufficient gains in a 30-30 with Leverevolution in a 13" barrel length?

[GabbyM]

[QUOTE=Larry Gibson;1325935]Got a chance to test the confirmation 10 shot strings today out of the M94 AE with 24" barrel.

Results are;

GabbyM's RCBS 30-180-FNs/197.5 gr/BHN 17.5
36 gr Win 760
R-P case
Rem 9 1/2 primer
2.522 OAL

Is that correct? A 197gr (not 180/177) bullet over 36.0gr Win 760?

"While I've tested LeveRevolution quite a bit with 150 gr jacketed, the 160 gr FTX, 311041s and the 30-180-FNs it appears, regardles of the bullet weight and type, the powder doesn't start burning efficiently until the load gets to 100% loading density. That is 34.5 - 40 gr depending on type and weight of bullet. "

From what you wrote about 34.5-40gr LveR from 150-180, can I infer that we could use 40gr with 150s & correspondingly less for 160, 170, 180 down to 34.5?

Thanks again. You must have a doctorette in bulletology.
Tom

Yes 197 grains is correct. My RCBS mold drops heavier than the 180 listed by RCBS. They calibrate that weight using the lighter linotype alloy. My mold seams to be a tad heavier than some but it's a late model mold from just a few years back. It only makes a solid .309" sized boolit from 2/6 alloy so it's not extremely fat. Just a big boolit.

I like the big bullet but in the lever gun it's delicate to make sure your long bore ride nose fits the bore or you have chambering issues with the lever gun.

[RPRNY]

Would there be sufficient gains in a 30-30 with Leverevolution in a 13" barrel length?

The evidence seems to suggest that in such a short barrel, it would likely only be with very heavy for caliber bullets, and therefore relatively slower loads for caliber. With a 13" barrel, It would seem that lighter bullets and faster powder would be the ticket.

[muskeg13]

Larry, you are a gem...the absolute gold standard. Thanks for all of your advice on the many topics that pop up on this website. You know what you are talking about.

I guess I'm starting to act my age in a bad way, newfangled stuff and all, I'd passed up LeveRevolution powder almost as bad as smokeless is just a fad, thinking it was simply some magic powder for polymer (gag) tipped projectiles. I happened to peruse the near empty shelves of the local Sportsman's Warehouse a few days ago and saw they had LeveRevolution.

It's taken me a week to realize there may be great possibilities for this powder for several calibers I load: .303 Savage, .303 British, .35 Winchester...and the list goes on. This is a great pastime.

[starmac]

Thankfully everybody has not read about Larrys work up on it. It has stayed on the shelf in fairbanks to get the limit more than just one day. lol

[Larry Gibson]

[QUOTE=Larry Gibson;1325935].................."While I've tested LeveRevolution quite a bit with 150 gr jacketed, the 160 gr FTX, 311041s and the 30-180-FNs it appears, regardles of the bullet weight and type, the powder doesn't start burning efficiently until the load gets to 100% loading density. That is 34.5 - 40 gr depending on type and weight of bullet. "

From what you wrote about 34.5-40gr LveR from 150-180, can I infer that we could use 40gr with 150s & correspondingly less for 160, 170, 180 down to 34.5?

Thanks again. You must have a doctorette in bulletology.
Tom

Tom

You certainly can "infer" that but I caution you to not take it for granted. we "work up" loads because every rifle and components are different. Even with the 150's Id suggest starting at 34.5 gr and work up to 40 gr though case capacity may become an issue before you reach 40 gr. Case capacity will depend on case make used, sizing and bullet seating depth.

Thanks for the comments guys, I do appreciate them. I'm just here to learn and pass on what I've learned, mostly the hard way.........:drinks:

Larry Gibson

[Bill*B]

Yes, I'm another one who learns "the hard way". Didn't take your advice to work up, just poured 35 grains of LVR into R-P .30-30 brass, topped it off with a Mountain Mold 182 grain GC bullet, and touched it off in my 16" barreled Winchester Trapper. Boy, howdy! 2123 fps! That's the good - now the bad: cratered primers - and the ugly: leading with my Lyman #2 alloy. A very interesting powder, but heed Larry's advice - start low and work up! And if I try it again, I'm breaking out the linotype.

[starmac]

Yes, I'm another one who learns "the hard way". Didn't take your advice to work up, just poured 35 grains of LVR into R-P .30-30 brass, topped it off with a Mountain Mold 182 grain GC bullet, and touched it off in my 16" barreled Winchester Trapper. Boy, howdy! 2123 fps! That's the good - now the bad: cratered primers - and the ugly: leading with my Lyman #2 alloy. A very interesting powder, but heed Larry's advice - start low and work up! And if I try it again, I'm breaking out the linotype.

Compared to a lot of these guys I am a total rookie, but isn't it pretty standard to start low and work up with any powder, even if the characteristics have been known for years???

[starmac]

Larry, thanks for the report. I found a large jug of LVR before everything dried up and I'll be working up some 30 Remington loads shot to be from a Remington 14 over this winter. Hope to have lots of range time while recovering from knee replacement surgery. I expect to see the same results as your 30-30's, I guess. I have large qty of 150 and 170 grain Sierra RNFP's and some Hornady 150's to work through before trying lead boolits and I've been told by a Remington Owners Forum guru that FTX bullets won't feed in these old pump guns and so don't have any plans to load any of them if I have to hand feed them.

Did you get to try any of the powder in the model 14, inquiring minds want to know. lol

[RPRNY]

After finding the loading data on LvR powder, noticed how limited the data is. Sure a marked improvement in some loadings. The 2 rounds I'm interested in trying it in are 38-55 and 444. I notice that in Hornady's loading data, they don't use it or have it listed with their 265gr. FTX boolit, bet there is a reason why. Nothing close to a listing for either of those. Not going to be the first to try, unlike Larry, don't have even close to proper pressure testing gear to do a safe workup. In time, I'm sure more rounds will be tested with this stuff, it will be interesting to watch.
Chris

I cannot comment on the 38-55 with which I have no experience. In the 444, the issue is that the combination of straight walled case and relatively light for caliber bullets tends to mitigate the beneficial effects of the progressive burn with this powder. With a 26" + barrel and 265 grs, there may be some velocity gain over say H4198. And a 22"-24" barrel with a good heavy Linotype GC bullet, say 305 grs, might also deliver some incremental velocity benefits but most 444 chambers don't have a long enough leade for big lead. I just don't see LE delivering for the 444 what it does for the smaller capacity bottleneck cases. YMMV.

[cwheel]

I've seen a couple of deer taken with the Hornady factory 444 LVR rounds, results were impressive. Friend that has the rifle was with me on the first sighting in trip and we noticed the zero on the scope change by almost +3 inches @100 yards on the first outing. The factory LVR 444 rounds weigh in +25 gr. @265 gr VS the 240 gr. other factory flat nose rounds used. I thought they had used this new powder in that loading to get the increase in speed. No, I haven't torn a round down and looked at the powder. You can buy the FTX bullets for reloading, would be great to be able to duplicate these factory loads. 38-55 I'm very careful with, 1917 production, don't want pressure above 30,000 in any load. If LVR powder has it's pressure peak further down the bore, and the 265 gr. cast used in that has enough mass to make it work, would be great as well. When I get the chance to buy a pound, will give it a try in 30-30 like Larry did with 170's, see what happens.
Chris

[RPRNY]

I've seen a couple of deer taken with the Hornady factory 444 LVR rounds, results were impressive. Friend that has the rifle was with me on the first sighting in trip and we noticed the zero on the scope change by almost +3 inches @100 yards on the first outing. The factory LVR 444 rounds weigh in +25 gr. @265 gr VS the 240 gr. other factory flat nose rounds used. I thought they had used this new powder in that loading to get the increase in speed. No, I haven't torn a round down and looked at the powder. You can buy the FTX bullets for reloading, would be great to be able to duplicate these factory loads. 38-55 I'm very careful with, 1917 production, don't want pressure above 30,000 in any load. If LVR powder has it's pressure peak further down the bore, and the 265 gr. cast used in that has enough mass to make it work, would be great as well. When I get the chance to buy a pound, will give it a try in 30-30 like Larry did with 170's, see what happens.
Chris

It is my understanding, and I am willing to be shown wrong, that the factory loaded Leverevolution rounds do not use the Leverevolution powder sold by Hodgdon.

[starmac]

It is my understanding, and I am willing to be shown wrong, that the factory loaded Leverevolution rounds do not use the Leverevolution powder sold by Hodgdon.

Hodgdon claims it is the same exact powder used in hornady leverevolution factory ammo.. They do not specifically mention 444 or 45/70 though,

[cwheel]

Guess when I get close to that rifle again, will have to tear down a round and see what the powder looks like, also how much. Notice that the factory cases for this stuff is much shorter than all others, almost 1/8" or so. Larry mentioned high load density, could also be longer bullets used.
Chris

[Shuz]

I sure wish Hodgdon would respond to my e-mail inquiring about the use of LeveRevolution powder and cast boolits for the .444 Marlin. I guess I'll try the telephone!

[cwheel]

I'm sure they would rather sell their XTP bullets for reloading the 444 VS cast. Still, no loads listed for LVR powder and their XTP bullets, strange.
Chris

[LeftyDon]

Not yet, this winter defeated me. Knee replacement slowed me down more than I expected and the snow buried the range under way too much snow for me. Bullets are still on the loading bench, but since I recently pickup up a Marlin 36 in 30-30 I have two guns that I can play with using LVR.

[starmac]

I just stopped by sportsmans and there was still 15 or so pounds of leverolution on the shelf, on the fourth day. That has to be some kind of record, even bmg doesn't last that long. The only other powder I have seen last this long the last few years is steel.

[starmac]

Just for chits and grins I filled to the brim a 30/30 case, it held 44.5 grains. A 30 rim case holds 43.8

I also filled the 308 me case, 53.7, a 308 win at 56.3 and a 300 sav at 51.9.
I am thinking someone that knows a little more about swapping powders could do something between all of them.
I think I will back off of Larrys 30/30 loads a little and try some 311291's in the 30 rem if they will cycle and chamber well.

[cwheel]

I think if Hornady wants to sell more of this powder they need to step up to the plate and develop safe loads for it just like all of the other manufactures of powder have. They can do the testing in a controlled lab setting safely, and publish the results. We go out after getting some basic guidelines and do our own testing of loads. Larry doing testing is one thing, he is set up to do pressure testing that most of the rest of us aren't set up to do. A bunch of us trying to work up loads with little or no guidelines for use of this powder might end up as a recipe for disaster sooner or later for some of us. Us buying this stuff just because it seams to fall into a place on the burn charts and trying to work up loads for it because it's all that's available could cause some real problems very soon. Think the answer should start with Hornady doing some testing on their new product, and publishing the results. Sure would help them selling this powder. This could be a rather conservative way to approach this, but I haven't blown up any firearm I reload for yet, hope to keep it that way. All of that said, it looks like this LVR powder has lots of potential for stuff that I load, but thinking the first tests should be coming from their labs and not my backyard.
Chris

[starmac]

That is why I am going to load the 30 rem, it just calls for 30/30 data. hodgdon did post data for other bullets besides the hornady ammo, but the only round I have found in the new hogdon manual that they posted data for is the 25/35 win. They did not post any data at all for the 444 and 45/70 even though there is factory ammo.

[grampa243]

That is why I am going to load the 30 rem, it just calls for 30/30 data. hodgdon did post data for other bullets besides the hornady ammo, but the only round I have found in the new hogdon manual that they posted data for is the 25/35 win. They did not post any data at all for the 444 and 45/70 even though there is factory ammo.

the 45-70 LeveRevoltuion factory ammo is not loaded with LeveRevoltuion powder..
100536 100538
100537

[rockrat]

IIRC, there was a post on 6mmbr.com about some using it in the 6mm br case with great results. Charges were, I believe , just a tenth or two more powder than a Varget charge. You might want to check there to see if you can find it.

[starmac]

Grampa I can't resize that enough to read, but I am sure it is right. In my 2014 hodgdon annual it list data for all the 308Me, 338,me 30/30 and the 25/35, all with various bullets. The 444 and 45/70 data with lever. It does say that it is the same exact powder used in leverrevolution ammo, I guess they mean in some of the lever ammo. lol

I would imagine they will get around to listing data in others eventuality.

[grampa243]

Grampa I can't resize that enough to read, but I am sure it is right. In my 2014 hodgdon annual it list data for all the 308Me, 338,me 30/30 and the 25/35, all with various bullets. The 444 and 45/70 data with lever. It does say that it is the same exact powder used in leverrevolution ammo, I guess they mean in some of the lever ammo. lol

I would imagine they will get around to listing data in others eventuality.

they are PDF files you can download and read.. hodogdon's online load data is getting updated with more uses of LVR all the time..

they show 35 rem. and 338 fed. now

[starmac]

My book has 35 rem loads for 4 different bullets, and 3 bullets for 338 federal. I hadn't noticed it had the federal load data till now.

[firefly1957]

I just loaded and shot Leverevolution for the first time today it was loaded under a bullet cast in a Lee 309170 mold velocity was about what The Lee manual gave for a 170 jacketed book but the load smokes a lot have any of you noticed the same?

The loads were also not very accurate loaded to 2040 f/s this same bullet over IMR-3031 shoots under 2 MOA these loads were 4 inchs at 30 yds!

[starmac]

That doesn't sound good at all firefly, what gun, and what lube???

[Pb2au]

Has anyone considered LeveRevolution powder for use in the venerable 30-40 Krag chambering?
I am already far down the road of load construction for testing in my recent Krag adoption, so this is not an immediate experiment. The thought kinda popped in my mind last night as I was finishing loading up ammo for testing this weekend.
The case capacity for the 30-30 is 45 grains (I think, please correct me), and the 30-40 is around 58. (again, I think, please correct me if I am wrong). So my thought was despite that, those two cartridges are not counties apart in terms of performance. Yes, the 30-40 krag service load was with a 220 (ish) projectile, but a lot of the data I have mined on the cast boolit variety is right in the wheelhouse with the 30-30.
Mind you, I am not trying to re-invent the wheel, but the performance noted in the thread for the 30-30 was very interesting.
Thoughts and comments are as always, appreciated.
Thanks

[RPRNY]

I too am interested in Lever for 30-40. There is data for Lever in the .308 Marlin Express, roughly 2 grs less capacity than the 30-40 case. I am working off that data but given the pressure caps for ye olde single lug Krag, this is very much proceed at your own risk stuff.

I just bought a Ruger #3 in 30-40 and can be more adventurous with that, but will likely be working paper patched loads over 4350 for that....

[Pb2au]

I'm glad I'm not the only fish swimming in this stream.
I'm going to collect some more data tomorrow and start lining up some corollaries and see if anything makes sense.
Thanks for the info on the 308 marlin express. I will peruse that as well.

[popper]

Firefly no it doesn't smoke much. I assume the other load runs the same fps? It's a slow powder, can't go much over 32 gr in 30/30 fps does't go up much.

[starmac]

Larry tested 34.5 grains and published all the numbers (which were pretty nice) using the 311041.
Sportsmans still had one pound here today. The stuff stayed on the shelf way over a week, when powder besides bmg is always gone within a day, so there is not many people using it hear, but the calibers that there is data for is not the most popular here either.

[firefly1957]

Starmac 30-30 both cast and jacketed the cast was powder coated with paint and baked then gas checked and sized.

Popper the Lee book has more then 32 grain list 33 grains is starting load .

[264 Win Mag]

Just read through the whole thread and it's an unbelievable amount of knowledge. I was interested in the fact that this powder likes heavy for caliber boolits to shine. I have a 240GC boolit that was showing promise in my 35 Rem with H4895 and was immediately intrigued with LeverRevolution powder. I bought these boolits from Mt Baldy who has since gone off the grid but still have a good amount left. Any thoughts on this boolit using LVR?

Thomas

[starmac]

Hodgdon gives a starting load of 42 grains to max of 45 which is compressed for the 200 grain hdy round nose bullet in 35 rem. They for some reason do not show a load for the 220.
I just noticed they also have data for the 338 federal.

It is kind of odd, but the starting load for the 180 gr spr fn is less at 40.0 gr and the same for max. The the ftx is less both starting at 37 and maxes at 41.4 compressed. Is the hornady 35 ammo in shorter cases like the 45/70, or is the bullet just taking that much more room??

[Djones]

Could you use 338 federal leverevolution data as somewhat of a starting point for 358 win? Say around 38-40 grains leverevolution and a 200 grain rcbs 35-200 GC. I have tons of this powder for my 32 spec, 35 rem and it smells good.

[Shuz]

I loaded up some LeveRevolution for my .30-30's the other day, using the NOE 311-165RF and 34, 34.5 and 35g of powder. That powder flows thru my Dillon 450 measure like butter. I can't wait to try these loads. Maybe today after church?!

[popper]

Shut I loaded the same in my 336 and fps didn't go up much. Larry tested same in his rifle and accuracy was BAD at full load. It works well with the FTX, 30/30 & 308MX. It is fun and good @ 20 gr under a 165-170 cast sans GC.

[TXGunNut]

I loaded up some LeveRevolution for my .30-30's the other day, using the NOE 311-165RF and 34, 34.5 and 35g of powder. That powder flows thru my Dillon 450 measure like butter. I can't wait to try these loads. Maybe today after church?!

I've tried similar loads, my rifle didn't like them. Seems the 180 grn boolit is where the magic starts in the thutty-thutty with LVR powder.

[A pause for the COZ]

How on earth did you know I was just thinking to my self. Self" I really like my leveRevelution loads for 150gr jacketed bullets in my 30-30's. I wonder how it would work with cast bullets?"

I was popping on here to ask that very question. So whats at the top of the threads?

Thank you so much Larry!
I really appreciate your efforts.
This thread kept be occupied for at least an hour.

[Marker243]

Add me to the list of folks wondering about using LeverRevolution under cast boolits in a 30/30. I got excited when I saw two cans on the shelf at Sportsman's Warehouse and bought one. I'm don't care about high velocity, I just want to leave the range with as many fingers as I arrived with, and make some holes in paper.

[starmac]

Well I tried 31 thru 33 grains behind the 311041, and still have all my fingers. lol No signs of any pressure. The snow was rotten to walk in, so my target wasn't really far enough to tell much though. I tried it up to 33 grains in the 30 remington too, and all seemed well there too.

[Shuz]

I loaded up some LeveRevolution for my .30-30's the other day, using the NOE 311-165RF and 34, 34.5 and 35g of powder. That powder flows thru my Dillon 450 measure like butter. I can't wait to try these loads. Maybe today after church?!
Well I tried them and was somewhat disappointed at the accuracy. Velocity was 2257 to 2300, so I suspect the air cooled Bhn 11 alloy was insufficient at that speed. I have since heat treated the same alloy and wound up with them being .001 larger, and we'll see what that brings next time out to the range.

[Shuz]

Eureka! 34g of LeveRevolution and the heat treated NOE 30-165RF at .310 & Saeco 10-11(Bhn 22-27), gave me a .81" 4 shot group at 50 meters yesterday! WLR primer and OAL of 2.400. Velocity was 2283fps with an SD of 7. 34.5g and 35g were tried and were just not as accurate. Air cooled .310 boolits of Bhn 11 to 14 with the same powder charges was also tried and the groups were non-existant!

[NYBushBro]

bttt to keep this from getting lost in cyberspace...

PS: Is it possible to consider making this a "sticky"?

[TXGunNut]

bttt to keep this from getting lost in cyberspace...

PS: Is it possible to consider making this a "sticky"?


It's a standard reference thread for me. So far I've found powders that perform better in my situation but it's on my shelf and quite suitable for more than one cartridge I enjoy. Giving it a second look in the 35 Rem right now.

[Old School Big Bore]

Bought a pound of LVR the other day, so I'm subscribing to this thread. I'm planning to use it in .30-30, .303 Br and perhaps a couple others. Thanks, Larry!

[johnny_xring]

Great read and thank you, Mr. Gibson, for all of your testing and data. Can't beat M43/strain gauge data. Learned a lot from reading this thread.

JX

[CPL Lou]

I worked up some loads using NOE's RCBS 180 FN clone in my H&R 30-30 Win.
I sized the boolits to .312, GC and lubed with 2500+. OAL of 2.536" and using CCI 200 primers. #2 alloy from Rotometals was used throughout.
Started with 34.0 grs and worked up to 36.0 grs, 0.5gr at a time. 5 rounds at each level.
At 34.0grs I had a bit of vertical stringing, mostly because I forgot that this rifle strings when it get warm. 3" group at 100 yards. Normal extraction and no leading.
34.5grs it grouped around 2.75". Normal extraction, no leading.
35.0grs got interesting. Extraction was a little stiffer, still no leading. 1.75" group.
35.5grs group continued to tighten but extraction was getting stiff. No leading, 1.25" group.
36.0grs extraction was stiff, primers starting to flatten a little. A light amount of leading. .90" group.
I think I'm going to back down to 32.0grs and try working up to 34.5grs, taking time to let the barrel cool more between shots and see how that works out.
The sticky extraction and primers beginning to show signs of flattening make me a bit nervous at the 36.0gr load.
I'm also going to try using a softer alloy 50/50 (COWW/SOWW) with a bit of tin for castability and see how that goes.

CPL Lou

[CPL Lou]

Forgot to add, the rifle has microgroove rifling.
Barrel slugged at .308"
All boolits lightly engraved the rifling at the nose.

CPL Lou

[Shuz]

CPL Lou--Do you have a chronograph? What is the hardness of your Rotometals #2 alloy?
I found that I had to heat treat my boolits at the velocity I was getting with 34.0g of LeveRevolution. Refer to post #143.

[CPL Lou]

I have a chrono but didn't take it with me because of the heat and humidity (very bad for my health). I plan on taking it with me next time I go out as I also have some 45-70 loads I need to check the speed on.
I don't have a means to test BHN....yet. But I suspect it's around 15.
I'm also going to check out some of the boolits that I cast 50/50, COWW/SOWW, but plan on keeping them around 1800fps.
I'll update as testing progresses. :D

CPL Lou

[FNGC]

Now That I've Found This Thread Again, I'm Bumping So its Easier To Find As I Reread It.

[TXGunNut]

Good thread to bump, not that I'd ever do that. ;-)

[Wis. Tom]

I have found a pound of LVR finally, so am jumping into this. I will be loading these to shoot out of a Magnum Research BFR 30/30. Oh where to start.

[TXGunNut]

I have found a pound of LVR finally, so am jumping into this. I will be loading these to shoot out of a Magnum Research BFR 30/30. Oh where to start.

Sounds like you're off to a great start, wondering if the BFR has a long enough barrel for the LVR powder.

[Nrut]

Now That I've Found This Thread Again, I'm Bumping So its Easier To Find As I Reread It.
Why don't you just click on "Thread Tools" at the top of this thread and subscribe to this thread..

[FNGC]

I Did After I Found It.


Why don't you just click on "Thread Tools" at the top of this thread and subscribe to this thread..

[clum553946]

I've tried the Speer 75 gr with 30 grs. of LVR in my old Winchester 1894 25-35. It shot very well & showed no signs of pressure, but to be on the safe side, I'm going to drop the load down to 29.5 grs. & see how it goes.

[ajjohns]

I'm gonna have to try this in my 303 Savage. I have a pound, better get to it!

[Ramjet-SS]

I have found a pound of LVR finally, so am jumping into this. I will be loading these to shoot out of a Magnum Research BFR 30/30. Oh where to start.

I have a BFR 30-30

here is some data

37.9 Grans of Leverrevolution CCI 250 primer 150 grain Hornady interlock FP Ave Velocity-1948 FPS

34.7 Grains Leverrevolution, CCI Lrg RFL Mag Primer, 170 Grain Nosler Partition, Ave Vel-1803 FPS

Same as above except 34.0 Grains LR powder and a 170 Grain FPGC bullet 1822 FPS Ave.

All brass dropped easily from the chambers primers were nice and round on the edges. All the loads listed shot very accurately.

[Pinsnscrews]

Larry, thank you for getting this started. Excellent work! To all the others who have submitted their results with the different calibers thank you as well!

i am wondering if someone has worked up a load for .357 Herret.

Looking at Larry's data, my 14" barrel is going to be right at the edge of peak pressure when the boolit leaves the barrel. My goal is a 200-250gr boolit out of the Herret. I am frustrated at the low weight loadings i find. To me this cartridge screams to be loaded heavier. i get decent accuracy for the 200gr j-words using IMR4227, better from IMR4895. If Lever can give me better results,and continues to shine with the heavier than usual loadings I keep reading about, I think I could hit my goal of a 250gr load. I have not yet gotten a mold to cast anything as I have not been able to find any load data.

I am not recoil shy if anyone was worried about the extra recoil from the 250gr load ;-)

if no one else has played with LEVER and the Herret, how would I go about determing load volume? Take known Herret and 30/30 loads, determine % difference for minimum loads and apply the average percentage (taken from multiple powders for the same loads) and start there? Fill the Herret case to the neck/seating depth of the chosen boolit, then back off 2-3 grains from say an average of 5 measurements?

suggestions would be greatly appreciated...

[farmbif]

Has anyone tried LVR in 35 rem with mihec's 359-220 or RCBS 35-250. Any suggestions where to start. I was thinking 37 or 38 gr for the 220 and 34 or 35 gr for 250. Midway had a clearance on the RCBS 35-250 semi-point GC, I couldn't pass it up. It may very well be too heavy for the 35rem but I was thinking my 35 whelen needs to be fed when I saw the 40% off sale. Any safe suggestions where to start on loads I would appreciate.

[Camba]

I have tried the 7-30 waters with Speer, 130gr SPBT, and worked up loads from my 21" contender from 35gr to 37gr. The 37gr gave me a 2609 FPS and all the case pressure signs looked good. The kick started to be noticeable at 37gr so I stop there.
I had also tried from 36gr to 46gr in my Encore 28" 308 Win rifle (new to me). I did not collect velocities on the 308 Win because I accidentally shot the chronograph and no longer works. No signs of high pressure and the shots were pleasant. My next test is my 358 Win with 200 gr Hornady power IL's. I have tried some 30-30 Win loads with 150gr SP IL and got good results too but I did not exceed 36gr at that time.
Larry's powder test is awesome!
Thank you Larry for sharing with us your experiments.
Camba

[TXGunNut]

Has anyone tried LVR in 35 rem with mihec's 359-220 or RCBS 35-250. Any suggestions where to start. I was thinking 37 or 38 gr for the 220 and 34 or 35 gr for 250. Midway had a clearance on the RCBS 35-250 semi-point GC, I couldn't pass it up. It may very well be too heavy for the 35rem but I was thinking my 35 whelen needs to be fed when I saw the 40% off sale. Any safe suggestions where to start on loads I would appreciate.

I've had decent results with the 35 Rem and LVR powder under a 190 or 200 gr boolit but I think the 35-250 would be more at home in your 35 Whelen. I don't think 35 my Rem is happy with 230's, pretty sure I don't want to try 250's. Haven't tried LVR in the 35 Whelen but powders in the 4350 class are a good fit for the 230 gr boolit I and my rifles like.
When I read this thread and reviewed my notes I concluded that LVR powder is an excellent powder in a narrow set of circumstances. I think it works best at the upper limits of SAAMI specs with nominal (and maybe a bit heavy) boolit weights in the 35 Rem.
PM me and maybe we can SWAG a load for that boolit if you will tell me which powders you have on hand.

[Djones]

With the MP359-220 I would start around 36 grains of LVR and work up to around 41 grains. Only in a Marlin or bolt gun. These loads would not be meant for the older auto loaders. I have the 359-220 and the bullets weigh right at 220 grains. I haven't loaded up any 35s yet with the 220 but I have loaded the rcbs 35-200 which weighs around 212. I load that 212 grain bullet with 41 grains of LVR and no pressure signs. Good luck with your gun and load.

[outdoorfan]

Not a 35 Rem, but instead a converted 35/30-30:

The 35/30-30 has pretty much the same case capacity. I found that packing it full of powder got okay velocity, but not as good as Benchmark, which I settled on. IMR 3031 would probably be a good one to. I also found that the felt recoil when getting a lot of slower burning powder in the case was obnoxious.

Leverevolution, imo, is probably the bomb in 30-30, but my results were not good in the 35/30-30. However, many people on Marlinowners have done well with it in their 35 Remingtons when using the 220 grain speer.