Glock Demystification--Step 1

[9.3X62AL]

Last week, I had the great joy of running 175 rounds of factory R-P hardball through the new Glock M-21 in 45 ACP. During this shooting bit, I collected samples of fired brass from it and from an ancient S&W 645, as well as a recently-made Kimber match-grade 1911A1. All rounds were R-P 230 grain FMJ from the same lot number. 10 samples of fired brass from each pistol were compared, all of which were collected after each pistol had fired 50 rounds to get "service-gritty".....and to loosen up the Glock a little, which had stuttered a bit at first. The idea here was to pursue the question of wide chamber diameters in the Glock pistols in this example, to answer the question of need for an aftermarket barrel to promote/extend brass life. This is apart from the cast boolit question, which will follow later.

Rather than belabor the process further, the findings were as follows--at the mid-point of the case wall (the area of widest expansion) the Glock cases' mean was .4780", E/S .003". The well-worn S&W's mean was .4758", E/S .001". The allegedly tight-chambered Kimber target model's mean was .4765", E/S .001".

So, YES--the Glock's chamber appears to run wider than the other examples tested, by .0015" and .0022". Is this significant in terms of brass life? Maybe.

More significantly, this wider chamber may work in my favor when it comes to cast boolit usage. The bore dimensions of about .453" at its widest point and .4535" in the throat indicate a .454" boolit might pay dividends. Gaining roughly .002" of chamber clearance might be just what the doctor ordered.

Prior to firing, I mic'd the R-P loads and found the mid-point of the cartridge cases to average about .470", the case mouth about .471". Winchester Ranger duty loads run .001" smaller at both points. With this in mind, I ran fired cases through the RCBS T/C sizer dies of both 45 ACP and 45 Colt. Sized diameters ran .467" and .469" respectively. There's that fortuitous .002" differential again.

The 45 ACP brass is tumbling as this is written. More to follow.

[AnthonyB]

Al, will an unsized case fired in the Glock drop into the chamber of the Smith and the Kimber? All the 45 ACPs I have tested will digest unsized brass from my M30s with no problem, so I quit worrying about the supposedly oversized chamber issue. Now all you need to do is run a few hundred cast loads through the Glock as fast as you can load the magazines and fire them; I'm willing to bet there will be no significant leading and that the pistol will be equally accurate with cast. In my admittedly limited experience with two M30s, the Glock 45s are very cast reload friendly. Tony

[9.3X62AL]

Tony--

The caliber itself is cast-friendly, so it stands to reason that a Glock would be less likely to go sideways in 45 ACP than in the more lead-hostile chamberings like 9mm or 40 S&W. I'll try the .454" boolits first in that weird bore form, then if they act right--I'll try .452". It would be VERY nice if I could load one boolit diameter (.452") in all my 45's, like in the 9mm's (.357").

I have satisfied myself that the Glock reputation for excessive chamber diameter is--at least in my pistol--another urban legend. How much more of the Glock's supposed rep for poor performance and unsafe operation with reloads and cast boolits remains to be examined for validity.

No one ever speaks of having slugged the Glock barrels' throats or bore form to get the same measurements that are de rigeur for most cast boolit load development. I have--the throat is .4535" or so, the widest barrel diameter is .453", and the shallowest is .449". Not being deeply steeped in physics, I don't know how a cast boolit will respond to being re-formed into that polygonal environment. The surfaces appear to me to be about equal in cross-section, so perhaps we can estimate an "average" bore/groove/WHATEVER dimension of .451", and that the boolit's plasticity will swage up to fully fit the barrel form under the influence of firing pressure. Or--should we go with the throat predication model that serves us so well in conventional bore forms and revolvers? THAT is what I'm after, sort of a "Mythbusters" exploration.

[AnthonyB]

Al, I'm looking forward to reading your results on different diameters. Boolits from my .452 sizer die actually measure .453, and I have been able to use the same diameter in all the ACPs. I've never tested for bench type accuracy though. I am very curious about what you learn. Tony

[versifier]

Al,
I know several people that reload for their Glock 45's (cast & jacketed, factory barrels) plus those that have commented here. I have not seen upon examination the bulged case heads in .45ACP's that are so obvious in Glock-fired .40's. You can clearly see and feel them without even needing to put the caliper to them. If it happens to the .45's it is not obvious to me, nor serious in my estimation. The chamber in my G23 is definitely oversized when its fired brass is compared to other non-Glocked range brass I have collected at our club. I have been debating if I should get a more cast friendly barrel for the G23, or if I should just sell it and buy a .45. I'm leaning toward the .45 as I feel like shooting the G23 is a waste of good brass. I am sold on the reliability and ease of use of Glock pistols, though, and can't see not having one, especially one that would get shot more often.
I don't shoot 9mm often, but I load for an old S&W m59 sometimes. Glocked 9mm brass does not appear to suffer from the bulges like the .40's do, either, but I have not done more than casual measurements in the 9mm, so that may not hold true with a larger sample and more careful measuring.

[9.3X62AL]

Tony--

The brass from the S&W and the Kimber will fit in the chamber of the Glock--not a slip-fit, but it goes in with a little assistance (fingertip push). I'm hoping for service-grade accuracy from the pistol with the castings, safe operation, sustained firing capability, and lack of leading.

Versifier--

There is NONE of that distended case wall that is seen in brass fired in Glock 40's on the cases fired in my M-21. Supposedly--the "3rd Generation" Glock 40's have addressed this issue in some fashion chamber-wise, but I can't confirm that either way. The "expansion" I speak of on the brass is apparent on cases fired in all three pistols, looks identical in character between the 3 sample groups, and requires a mic to discern differences. In other words, the expansion on Glock-fired brass is just like the expansion characteristics seen on every other piece of 45 ACP brass I've fired in a slew of pistols over the years.

More to follow.

[Wayne Dobbs]

Deputy Al,

I am looking forward to your results. I've been a Glock fan for many years, but I've abandoned the .40s entirely and just shoot the 9mm guns. I recently acquired a G21 (used for a great price) and think I'd like to return to my cast bullet .45 ACP days. Keep us updated on the project...

[9.3X62AL]

Will do, folks. I wanted to fire off some more factory rounds on Tuesday at the Burrito Shoot, but between the cold windy conditions and some eyesight difficulties I called the game early. I do like shooting that critter, for sure. One smooth ride!

[mooman76]

I also am looking forward to your results. Right now I am shooting the Glock 22C with lead bullets with extra caution watching for leading, shooting light loads, looking the brass over extra good and shooting no more than one box at a time between cleanings! No problems so far except a small amount of leading that easily cleans out.

[mike in co]

deputy al,

not sure what you are looking for.
there was an actual problem with early glocks in 40sw.
it left a significant section of the case unsupported.
its unlikely any of these guns are on the market, as glock fixed the problem.
if one searches back far enough in pamphlet reloading guides, several were published that specifically excluded thier data for use in glock 40's.
there were some case failures, the problem identified and fixed.
a variation has let some to claim brass fired in all glocks MAY fail if reused due to
constant resizing of brass from oversized chambers.....as you have seen it is actually very similar to other guns.
mike

[9.3X62AL]

Mike--

I'm trying to de-bunk claims about the non-suitability of Glock barrels for reloaded ammo and cast boolits. This partial review above is to note my satisfaction that reloaded ammuntion sensibly assembled will pose no problems in my stock Glock 45 ACP. The "second chapter" will deal with cast boolits and "old standard" cast boolit loads that we have used for years--and I'm leaning toward Lymans #452374 and #452460, sized at .454" and at .452", with WW-231 and Unique. This might require a casting session with Beagled mold to get boolits fat enough to clean up at .454", gotta check that. Might also need a little fatter expander spud--both for this project and for the 45 Colt loads I'm using with .454 boolits. The spuds in my 45 Colt and 45 ACP die sets both mic @ .447" IIRC. So--I might need to acquire some tooling to do this right.

I went into this venture with the idea that the urban legends about Glocks and reloads were pretty weak factually, excepting the 40 S&W in 1st Generation pistols. Seen that sort of brass you mention A LOT, and recognize it readily.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I had a 36 in .45ACp, and the majority of loads it digested were lead boolits. Nary a problem with anything in that little joy. I traded it off for a XD45, and now regret that trade.

I was putting mostly 185 SWC's down the tube, with a couple of 230gr RN, and there were never any leading, feeding, or pressure problems in mine. The .45 Glock barrels are good for lead boolit shooting, the other calibers you might get lucky with (I'm making NO comment on this, as it is not something I would like to be held to the wall for). Glock does a more "standard" type of rifling on the .45 barrels for whatever reason, and it makes them more friendly for us.

Just for the record, I would put everything and anything down that tube, have no complaints, and just made sure that I cleaned the barrel out after the range session. The cleaning was only to make sure that nothing built up too much in the barrel, and it went boomy in my hand the next time. Even though I never had any more leading problems than my Colt 1991A1 (nothing to complaint about, just making the comparison), I still cleaned the barrel on the Glock.


I money wasn't an issue, I'd have another 36 right now. No reservations.

[9.3X62AL]

Bubba--

Thanks for the info, sir. The Glock 45 caliber barrels are 8-sided/octagonal, while the other calibers are all 6-sided/hexagonal. The 45 bore LOOKS conventionally rifled, but when slugged the high and low spots are discernable.

I can speculate until the cows come home about how this rifling form works, and why it is or isn't amenable to cast boolits--but such musing would be no more valuable than the urban legends now present concerning the matter. A lot of casters (like Bubba) report good, safe, unleaded results from shooting castings in the Glock stopsign bores.

I re-checked the dimensions of the RCBS expander spuds in the 45 ACP and 45 Colt die sets--those are .449", NOT .447" as previously posted. Memory as I get older is less and less reliable.

[9.3X62AL]

I'm assembling ammo for the Glock M-21 now, and the RCBS .452" sizer die I use for 45 ACP boolits sizes this lot of 92/6/2 #452374's to .453"--a perfect match to the barrel's widest dimension. As-cast, they run about .455", so they may "clean up" when sized at .454".

Nope--didn't put this project on a shelf someplace.

[9.3X62AL]

Last week at the range, Pistolero 451 gave me some swaged 230 grain boolit handloads to run through the Glock 21. If a load was prone to and motivated toward leading--I think these would have obliged. I cleaned the pistol today to prep it for shooting tomorrow--zero/zilch/nada leading.

Tomorrow's test loads will include BD-45's, #452460's, and #452374's atop WW-231, Bullseye, and Unique. All boolits are sized to .453" in the much-used RCBS .452" sizer die, all are Taracorp/92-6-2. I wonder just how many boolits that die has processed.....many thousands over the past 20+ years.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

....told ya!!! ;)

[9.3X62AL]

Bubba et al--

Oh, I hear ya sir. One of those ideas that keeps rattling around in my head on the Glock/lead boolit subject is the large number of people like yourself that have obtained good service from the humble castings (or swagings) in these pistols.

Also interesting is how--like in Anthony B's case--my sizer die of long service (nominally a .452") actually produces boolits at the possible proper .453" diameter for the barrel's dimensions. I imagine it did indeed produce "spot-on" boolits when it was new, but 20+ years of service.....maybe closer to 25 years have prepped it for this project.

I should also note that I'm running the 45 ACP cases through the 45 Colt T/C sizer to reduce brass working a bit. The Colt sizer produces .469" case diameter, while the 45 ACP sizer (also 25+ years old) produces .467" case diameter. The Colt die-sized loads feed admirably when dry-cycled through the Glock. The #452460 SWC's also seem to feed error-free when seated with about .035" of front drive band protruding from the case. The loads with the front drive band seated flush caused the previously-mentioned cycling issues, with extracted case rims tying up against case mouths of a cartridge in the magazine. Cartridges in the Glock 21 magazine "ride high" compared to 1911A1's or S&W's.

Lots to do this morning before hitting the range--I hope to get some shooting done after making my way through all that crapola. I would miss the burrito for lunch, and my week is not complete without having Glen and/or Rick whup me soundly.

[NVcurmudgeon]

Deputy Al,

"I imagine it did indeed produce "spot-on" boolits when it was new, but 20+ years of service.....maybe closer to 25 years have prepped it for this project."

Now that's interesting. I keep a homemade chart on the wall of the shop comparing nominal vs. actual diameters produced by my Lyman H&I dies. Some were bought new, some used. Some are recently aquired, some ancient. I can use this chart because I use one alloy almost exclusively. But your post makes me think I better check what diameter these things are turning out in 2007.

[carpetman]

Dep Al---Maybe it's just a rumor that persists that Glocks cant use cast bullets. In Dear Abby just today another old rumor was debunked. It was said that "Circumcision of African Men can cut HIV risk by half."

[9.3X62AL]

Thanks for that last, Uncle Ray.

After having Glen and Rick whup me but good yet again yesterday, I ran some #452460, #452374, and some of the BD Original castings through the Glock--60 all told. All were cases processed through the 45 Colt sizer, and all were sized at .453" as detailed previously. Not a bit of leading was visible--anywhere. I will do some more firing with the pistol to attempt accumulation of whatever fouling will appear--but the barrel looks no different than the many Colt, S&W, SIG-Sauer, and parts gun 45 ACP barrels I've run castings through since my first 45 ACP in 1979. NO leading--at all. Size matters. Alloy and lube might--in this case, 92/6/2 and Javelina alox, but the 45 ACP isn't one of the more demanding calibers for cast boolits, compared to the 9mm or 40 S&W. That may be an advantage the Glock 45's possess that the more stressful-to-castings chamberings don't have.

We'll see how it progesses.

[Four Fingers of Death]

I have been told that we blew up several 40S&Ws at work (when I usewd to work :-D ) and one was a new gun that blew up on the first mag. Our armourer seemed to think that the Glocks would fire whilst slightly out of battery, because they blew up dirty guns, clean guns and a new gun on the reloads. They fire a lottttttttttttt of ammo though.

I have only used 9mm in Glocks and had no trouble, and lots of aussies use glocksa around the ranges and most don't allow anything other than lead.

[Poohgyrr]

Mike-- I'm trying to de-bunk claims about the non-suitability of Glock barrels for reloaded ammo and cast boolits.

For what it's worth, since about '91 I've been training and plinking with handloads (warm load of AA7 under bulk 180 JHPs & Western Nevada 175 LSWCs) for a G23 (2nd gen from about '91 or '92) and a G35. Both Glocks clean easy and well - there simply is no lead build up problem with either of these.

The only issue I've had is one batch of my handloads that ran fine in two Hi Powers and a Smith, but three Glocks couldn't feed this batch properly. I don't know how or why, but using the Lee factory crimp die has stopped this feed problem. And a lot of people really likt the G21.

[Bubba w/a 45/70]

I wasn't going to say this, but I'm seeing that it might need to be said. I never measured any of my reloads going into my Glock. I made them up from purchased booolits, multiple fired cases, and .45ACP dies (Lee), and putting the boolits far enough into the cases so the crimp groove was used. Standard case prep was done: trimming at regular intervals, ect.

This is as technical as I became. Still never had a problem that I, and I stress I, didn't MAKE happen by trying to make it happen. The Glock was as reliable as all of my revolvers, it took everything that was made for the chamber size and fired it. With incredible, boring regularity.

I didn't sort any boolits for weight, diameter, color of lead....just made sure there was lube in the groove. Straight out of the 500 count boxes and into the cases.

At that time in my mind, casting for the bottom feeder was riduculous...I'm coming around to casting for my revolvers. Still a bit off of doing it for the 1991A1, but maybe soon...

[9.3X62AL]

I am REALLY enjoying this Glock 45 ACP.

The BD Original boolits were prone to stoppages in my buddy's Kimber Target and my 2 S&W 45's until seating depths got massaged a little--and still weren't 100% reliable. The BD's ran like water through the Glock, and really whacked the daylights out of my dinger plate at 25 yards--repeatedly. The numbers (20 rounds apiece) of 3 boolit designs say nothing about long-term reliability, I'm just checking for lead deposits at this point in the exercise. I'll continue the firing sequences for a time, to see how things shake out.

Through all this--I'm having a great time--and that's the object of the game.

[Redleg99]

This thread is a good example of why I love this board.
I own a Glock 21 that I have been fearful of shooting lead out of until now.
Thanks Deputy Al!

[Lloyd Smale]

one of my buddys has a 10mm glock and its digested probably over 2000 cast bullet handloads. He shoots a 180 tn cast with a midrange charge of hs7 equivilant wc820. He begs me for bullets as its the most accurate load hes found in the gun. With the shallow rifleing there kind of like a micro grove marlin. They tend to prefer harder bullets. The softer ones must strip through the rifling. I cast them for him either out of #2 or 5050 ww/lyno and have personaly shot sub 2 inch groups at 25 yards with that load and his gun.

[9.3X62AL]

Most welcome, Redleg. The whole process with the Glock 21 has been pretty unremarkable, really. Accurate--reliable--clean shooting. One trait of the Glock barrels that I noted with the pistols our deputies carried was that they cleaned VERY easily, and this barrel is likewise. A couple solvent-soaked patches, then dry patches, and it's done. I have yet to need a bore brush to get the tube clean, even after LOTS of lead bullets. The polygonal bores don't have "right-angle crevices" at land/groove junctions where crud can wedge into, I guess.

Lloyd, your buddy should try the 200 grain castings in the 10mm. My long favorite in that caliber. My alloy in both the Glock 21 and the S&W 10mm is Taracorp (half Lino/half unalloyed lead equivalent).

[Lloyd Smale]

Al ive got a 200 grain ballistic cast mold for a tn and a 210 grain rf but his gun seemed to like the 180s better.

[versifier]

OK Al,
I bit the bullet....er, boolit. I just picked up a G21 from a non-loader in my club. It's had about two boxes through it and isn't even broken in yet. I have been prepping brass, lubing boolits, and loading boxes of test rounds. The range is still snowed in, but with the rain and warm weather lately, we might be able to use it in another week, if the mud's not too deep. (I will be selling my 1st gen G23 ASAP to the first someone who doesn't load and shows me cash.) I also broke down and bought a dovetail sight adjustment tool made by B&J Machine - some slick and I highly recommend it. It took about 30sec to look at it and figure out how it works, 2min to set it up, and another 30sec to adjust the sight. It's totally adjustable and will do front sights, too, as long as they're dovetailed. I will keep it in my range bag and figure it will pay for itself quickly. More later when the range opens.

[scrapcan]

Versifier,

How about a picture of the sight adjuster or a link to manufacturer. And you coul dgive us a pict of the fine shooting you do also.

[versifier]

Here's the fixture. I got it from Midway - Brownells has it, too. It's got my G21 slide in it and the "pusher" is the top threaded thingy. (That's a technical term.)

Great shooting will have to wait until the range reappears. You want to see my famous one hole/one shot group? Then you better stay tuned. :-D

[MtGun44]

I have seen a copy of a pretty angry official letter from a
major US gov't agency which issues Glock 40s requesting
Glock explain why they have had several low time 40s
go KABOOM during training. These guns have ONLY seen
factory jacketed ammo and are maintained by Glock
trained armorers. A friend has blown up a 40 cal Glock
with lead bullet loads, and Glock was downright nasty
on the phone, would not even consider that their superior
Austrian uberweapon could have any problems. Also
mentioned that "we hear of about 10 guns per week"
that have blown up, no idea what cals or ammo.

I personally know of no 9mm or 45ACP blowups, but I don't
fool with Glocks much. Seems like the 40s have some "issues".
Besides, the only Glock 40 I ever shot hit me in the face
with the brass every shot, which is good because I really
hated the trigger and grip, so it made the choice to stay
away that much easier. Millions love them, the just don't
tickle my fancy. :neutral:

FWIW,

Bill

[35remington]

MtGun44, the most plausible explanation I've seen for kB's to date involving Glock .40's has been with rounds that have been repeatedly cycled through the gun, bumping against the feedramp from slidelock many times-as in feeding and refeeding the same cartridge. Many users may do this, "topping off" with the same cartridge repeatedly.

Predictably, the bullets start to telescope into the cases-and given the .40's short overall length and high operating pressures, it doesn't take much telescoping before pressures ramp up markedly. Given the level of case head support present in a high pressure cartridge of this sort it is possible that kB's may happen in this way-and explains why it seems to be most prevalent in the .40, as it has more volume decrease with a given (shorter) OAL than a 9mm or .45. Relatively fat bullet, short case.

Sounds plausible anyway. Add it to the list of "possibles."

[9.3X62AL]

I'm not totally sold on the Glock trigger feel, but I can get used to it. Mine is fun to shoot, and I like having 13 rounds of SXT 230's on board and available before the slide locks back. A lot of the reason I bought it was to try cast boolits in it, just to jerk the chain of the Internet Mall Ninjas whose mantra was "No Lead In Glocks". In some past life I must have been the court jester, the guy who put the pig's bladder under the queen's throne pillow--a medieval whoopee cushion of sorts--and likely got burned at the stake for my efforts.

[dubber123]

Deputy Al, "Internet Mall Ninjas"? never heard that one, but I like it!

[versifier]

"A hot stake is better than a cold chop!" - Curly Howard

[9.3X62AL]

My irreverence knows no boundaries.