Noob - intro and q's

[Linepipe]

Hi all, back to casting my own. Been so long that I am wanting to restart as a newbie, just to make sure I get it all right. Used to have a mentor - Joe Mattingly - who directed me here some long time ago, but I got into other shooting disciplines along the way. Long story short, I got some questions after brushing up on my Lyman book and reviewing the material here.

The backround stats:: rifle: 30-30, Marlin 336. No scope. Bullet: Lyman 31141. Use: hunting - pigs and deer (it is a hunting rilfe, nothing else). Reloading with a lyman 310 (oh yeah, old style...)

I shot three pigs over the weekend with some WW bullets, gas checked and lubed/sized. Load was 9.5 grains of Unique. Complete pass-through on all pigs, 75 yards. Absolutely NO expansion - pin-hole in and out. Lyman's cast bullet handbook tells me I am running about 1300 fps (estimated). Luckily I can track fairly well. Also tested on a pithy tree stump 12" end to end - no expansion, found bullet and check on ground other side.

I can see real advantages to the lack of expansion with respect to meat damage, but:

1. Do I need to run this bullet faster to get expansion or do I need to soften it? If so, what is the BH that it needs to be? Since it is going competely through at the moment, why would I need to run it any faster unless I am looking for distance? Havent done any real load testing yet, just 50-75 yard shots. Load testing is in the offing. Very soon.

2. I would like to optimize this bullet for this rifle. Where do I start and what are the realistic boundaries? My recent past has been long range shooting/hunting, wheich means all kinds of prep - trim for neck thickness, annealing brass, bearing suface measurements, meplat trimming, etc. This AINT that rifle or caliber. I have come to the conclusion that the 30-30 nicely fills a "for serious" meat gap when it comes to thicket/short to medium range hunting. As such, I need to know where it performs optimally with this bullet. Core-Lockts work great but I am not in the mood for that anymore.

I got tons of questions but lets start at 100K feet and work down. Any help you have would be greatly appreciated. Apologies for the length of the post.

Linepipe

[Doby45]

Hollowpoint it, it will expand then.. :shock:

[RobS]

Welcome.............I would use 50/50 WW-lead for a softer boolit and keep your load like you have it if you are not needing any more velocity. Are your WW boolits air cooled???

[geargnasher]

Welcome, and welcome back!

My opinions: #1, with Unique and a gas check, you can get really nice expansion from an alloy as soft as 9bhn and still have fairly decent accuracy. If you go up to Winchester 748 powder, you can shoot the boolits you have at 2k fps or above, and they will expand for sure unless you're water-quenching or heat-treating your boolits.. Straight, air cooled ww work great to 2K behind a slower powder.

#2, I disagree that the .30-30 isn't a caliber that can benefit from good case prep. In fact, special attention to case prep, including exact fitting to your particular boolit and chamber, is crucial with cast boolits to get top accuracy. Raise your expectations, I have a 336 with a 12 groove barrel that will put 311041's into an inch and a half at 100 all day with Reloader 7, the right alloy, custom dies, and a lot of attention to detail. My M70 .30-06 has been known to to half that ten times in a row in good weather.

Gear

[Doby45]

Might need to get some of your aught six recipes as I just got me a nice Ruger M77 in aught six.

[Bullshop]

Linepipe
A very basic rule to determine weather an alloy will expand is, BHN X 100 = impact velocity FPS. There are always other variables to consider but that basic rule gets you in the ball park. It is more of a minimum requirment so more velocity will = more expansion. Under the minimum and you get what you got.

[geargnasher]

Nope, Doby. I'm going to make you work for it this time! I'll give you a hint though, 311284, military brass fitted to your gun, Sinclair dies, and IMR 4350. It's all about how you put it together.

Gear

[Linepipe]

Gear, please school me on the case prep with this caliber. You are correct in your assumption that I dont know how far to dial the OCD accuracy meter back (and may have gone too far). But I am VERY cool with minute details, and I got 50 million once-shot cases that I can use for this so lay it on me. I am currently going through the process of finding the datum for the chamber. None of my twice or thrice shot cases have found it yet. As soon as I find a crush fit I will bump the shoulder datum back on the cases about .002, or may leve it right at the chamber datum. Other major setting I am looking at is the COAL at the bullet ogive, will test and see what distance it likes. The real issue for me at this point has been the brass length - it seems to be a little more critical with this rifle because of the crimp - the extreme over I can trim but the under don't crimp in the groove, so I know that I have variability there. That cant be good.

Custom dies - are you talking the fully Monty, send in a couple cases to a machinist custom dies or high-end off the shelf dies?

Rob, the bullet is air-cooled.

Speaking of crimps and .309 bullets - how many shots do you get out of your brass? Does anyone anneal the case necks or just run them until they split?

[geargnasher]

Here's what's worked best for my 336.

The micro-groove bore is really about .302" or so, and the groove can run a little fat, too, mine's .309-ish. That all equates to casting boolits that will size fully to .311". There is more total engagement area with microgrooves, so there has to be more metal to fill the grooves than traditional four or six groove rifling.

Next, don't oversize your case necks. Either obtain a 30-caliber bushing die set or buy a cheap Lee RGB set and hone out the neck in the sizer die to give you about one and a half to two thousandths interference fit with a .311 boolit. I prefer using a traditional FL sizer die and decapping rod for production, since I reload quantity .30-30 on a Lee turret press. My solution to the expander was get one out of a Lee .303 British die, it runs about .310" instead of .3075" like all the .30 caliber ones do. This gives me minimal resizing of fireformed brass, yet expands to ensure consistent boolit tension even if I'm using thin-necked, Remington brass or thicker Winchester brass. For this caliber I use a universal bellmouth die and rifle charging die. A Lyman "M" die works better, but adds a step. You decide. Even for the levergun, I don't full-length resize, but I do come really close, just touching the neck to ensure reliable chambering without screwing up the headspace.

OAL is a big thing with the .30-30, I get the best accuracy with the front band of the 311041 wedged up against the leade firmly, but not so hard I have to force the locking bolt the last bit with the lever. That boolit rides the bore, or actually doesn't really touch it in a microgroove barrel, so the front band is your boolit-barrel seating point. I always seat lead to touch the leade/rifling, it gives me better accuracy and more consistent powder burn/pressure curve. As far as crimp goes, I prefer a roll crimp just until the ouside of the case mouth is flush under the back of the band above the crimp groove, not crimped until the inside of the case mouth is touching the bottom of the crimp groove. In other words, just enough crimp to keep the boolit from overseating from recoil in the magazine tube or when being chambered against the leade. You will have to fiddle with brass length to do this, perhaps you will have to trim it, or fire it until it grows some, it all depends on the particular cut of the chamber, your mould, and the alloy you use.

Using full-house loads, I get about eight reloadings. Midrange, in the 1500-1700 fps range, I get a dozen to 15. Plinkers that are just barely supersonic, I have 20+ reloadings on some, although for most everything I anneal just the mouth to prevent crimp splits.

Hope this helps some,

Gear

[9.3X62AL]

No issue with anything posted above.......but you might want to check out the BruceB Softpoint Casting Method in the Classic Threads section.

[Dean D.]

Welcome to Cast Boolits Linepipe! Looks to me like the guys are giving you the straight scoop.

[Bret4207]

I don't use the 311041, any Marlins with Microgrooves or know exactly what a datum line is to be honest. But I do use an RCBS 30-180FN and lots of straight WW. Staying with just what you have and wanting more expansion/damage you can either up the speed a bit to the 16-1800 fps area( IME that gives some expansion to WW 30 cal FN designs), soft nose it as Cousin Al mentioned or HP the boolits with a Forster jig or something like that. I can't imagine that a combination that expands at least somewhat on deer and coyote won't expand on a tough old hog.

HPing or upping the speed are the quickest answers.

FWIW- if you treat the 30-30, 303 Savage, 32 Special, 25/35, 35 Rem, etc. like a benchrest cartridge and apply most of the same practices you do with your long range heavy rifles you'll see the same improvements, but at a reduced scale simply because the guns are not geared to the goals. Stick a 30-30 cartridge in a benchgun and it'll really surprise you.

[MT Gianni]

I would use air cooled ww at those velocities and run them faster still. If you are waterdropping they are too hard. I haven't read anything other than ww, so sorry if I missed that.

[geargnasher]

[snip]

HPing or upping the speed are the quickest answers.

FWIW- if you treat the 30-30, 303 Savage, 32 Special, 25/35, 35 Rem, etc. like a benchrest cartridge and apply most of the same practices you do with your long range heavy rifles you'll see the same improvements, but at a reduced scale simply because the guns are not geared to the goals. Stick a 30-30 cartridge in a benchgun and it'll really surprise you.

That's what I was trying to say, but took me something like seven paragraphs!

The only limitation to the .30-30 is the guns most commonly chambered for it are leverguns, which are inherently not-so-accurate due to sizing requirements, bolt locking mechanisms, and horrid barrel harmonics due to the tube mag, foream band, etc. It won't get a 200 grain boolit to 2500 fps, either, but it will cleanly kill anything in North America out to 100 yards if you know how to shoot.

Gear

[Linepipe]

First off guys, thanks for the information and help. I have read up on the responses and have been reviewing the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook and here is where I am at: the restrictions I am placing on the rifle/bullet combo is 200 yards. The Book has definite opinions about killing speed and foot pounds energy. Every way I look at it I am seeing a minimum of 1900 – 2100 at the muzzle. Powders in the book are RL-7, IMR-3031, 748, and H335. Preference will be to the 3031 and H335 for me, but I can be persuaded differently. At these speeds 200 yard appears to be max, with 150 being the safer bet (please correct me if I am wrong).

The question I have here is that I could go faster, but The Book is stating that cast bullets pushed beyond 2100 fps tend to perform poorly upon impact and have leading issues. Is this your experience? Also I read last night someone recommending 4064 on another thread. The only place I see this is with jacketed bullets in other manuals. Where can I find this other load data?

ETA: nevermind on the unlisted/alternative powder questions - I found the thread.

Gear, I have other questions about dies but one subject at a time.

[Bret4207]

You probably aren't going to NEED 2100 fps to get expansion with WW metal. The difference between 1300 and 2100 is gargantuan with cast as far as expansion goes. 18-1900 fps should be easily doable and give you expansion out to 100 yards, more expansion at closer ranges. The further out the target the more important the placement. I consider 200 yards with a 30-30 really pushing it at 1600 fps. Even at 2K it's stretching things.

Leading is a while 'nuther issue. That's an issue related to fit, static and dynamic, barrel likes and dislikes, boolit design and lube, alloy, etc. Sheer speed doesn't mean automatic leading. But it takes development to get it to work right.

Performance on impact is another separate subject. Different alloys have different qualities and react differently at different speeds and on different targets. There is no "one" way or answer. As a general rule a good FN os decent metplat for the caliber is a good start.

[Linepipe]

Thanks for the help Bret. I will go with a range of 1800 - 2000 FPS with IMR 3031 and try to find an accuracy node in there. No luck I may try 4064 and H335, same fps range.

Will keep the Unque for a plinking/fireforeming load.

[cbrick]

Great advice so far. Gear and Bret were right on about bullet fit/bullet diameter. I've had great success with my Winnie 94 30-30 with several bullets of air cooled WW and more than a few powders. Even the winchester benefits from the larger diameter bullet. My RCBS 180 FP casts WW at .3103" and works very well lubed without sizing but my RCBS 150 FP casts at just over .309" and ran out of lube in my 26" barrel. I sent the 150 to Erik Ohlen at Hollow Point Molds and had all three driving bands opened up in both cavities and it now casts WW at .3115", sized to .311" it now works well with 19.0 Gr. SR 4759 at 2150 fps and no leading. The 180 FP is a great shooter at 1920 fps with 19.0 Gr. 4759. I've only group tested these two bullets at 100 yards and both ran about 2-2 1/2 inches with Marbles peep sights. (not the best bet for me anymore)

My Winnie bore slugs at a very uniform .3092", no tight or loose spots.

Proper bullet fit is a wonderful thing.

Rick

[pdawg_shooter]

Nope, Doby. I'm going to make you work for it this time! I'll give you a hint though, 311284, military brass fitted to your gun, Sinclair dies, and IMR 4350. It's all about how you put it together.

Gear

That sounds awful close to me load too!