Primer back out - Low pressure? 1903a3

[ilcop22]

'Evening,

Out at the range today (celebrating our glorious victory last night), I was testing some loads in my 1903a3 at 50 yards. The M2 ball rounds were punching a quarter and no issues were observed. However, when testing my reloads (30-06, 180 grain g/c lee boolit, 34-35 grains IMR 4895, wolf large rifle primers), I was noticing hang fires on 1/5 of the rounds with primer-backout on all of them.

I'm wondering what the cause might be for the primers backing out? The 34 and 34.5 grain loads were piss-poor in terms of accuracy (3-4"), with the 35 grain load tightening the group (1"). Headspacing is not an issue, as I check my rifles with go/no go gauges before use and I do not have this problem with the M2 ball.

Any advice is greatly appreciated.

Thanks.

[leadman]

I found with the lower amounts of 4895 I set the overall length to seat the boolit just into the rifling. This seems to give better ignition and accuracy.

Another thing is the tension on the boolit by the neck. Sometimes if they are too loose the ignition is poor.

I have not tried Wolf primers with cast yet so if you have another brand try them. Or try a tuft of dacron on top of the powder.

[geargnasher]

Primers backed-out on all of them, or just the hang-fires?

4895 is a bit hard to get to burn completely, but isn't that hard to light unless the following is happening:

Low pressure from incomplete combustion will back out the primers, but they shouldn't have anywhere to go if your ammunition is within spec. The gun may be fine, but if your dies are knocking the shoulder back too far, the case could push forward enough when the firing pin hits it to A) cause poor primer ignition and B) push the cartridge forward until the shoulder hits the chamber, leaving a gap for the primer to travel backwards. If there isn't enough pressure to force the case to expand and stretch fully to the confines of the chamber (the cause of head separation in excessively headspaced situations), then the primer will stay pushed out. If it's a hot load and excessive headspace, for whatever reason, occurs, often the primer is flattened or even mushroomed as the case crushes it back against the breech face.

I'd check the ammo you made, put a disc cut from a cereal box behind the case head of a loaded round and see if it will chamber if you have a place to do that safely at home, otherwise prep a dummy case (no powder or primer) loaded the same way you did it for real and see how it chambers. I'll bet you can get at least one if not two thicknesses of cereal or cracker box material in there.

Gear

[geargnasher]

+1 on the Dacron for these types of loads!

Gear

[ilcop22]

Thanks for the advice, I'm going to look into that. My cases are all typically crimped using Lee dies. Might a too heavy crimp be affecting the rounds as well?

I've never quite grasped how to know when my boolit is just touching the lands/grooves on the barrel. Is there a good, home method to do this?

Thanks again.

[geargnasher]

Simple. Size an empty case, expand the neck and bellmouth it (like you would a straight-walled pistol case), start a boolit with your seating die but don't seat it fully. leave about 1/4" sticking out. Try to chamber it, pushing the bolt firmly but not hard enough to stick the boolit in the rifling. Eject the round and seat the boolit slightly deeper on your press withoug crimping, then rechamber the round. Do this while watching to see how far the bolt is away from closing. The point is to use the leade of the barrel as a stop gauge. When you get the boolit deep enought so you can cam the bolt closed with only a little resistance, you've seated the boolit to touch the rifling. To be sure, set your seating depth or overall length to match that of the dummy round you just made. Pull the boolit, put in a fresh one, seat and crimp to that length, and see if it will chamber with only a little resistance on camming closed. Eject it and observe the nose for land engravings, there should be some slight shiny marks from that, maybe some evidence of the first band pressing against the leade, it depends on the boolit style and the shape of the chamber leade.

Gear

[ilcop22]

Thanks again, geargnasher. I'm gonna go try that out...

[cbrick]

As normal, Gear is right on and very well explained. Dick Speer did write up on this and light loads causing this in one of the earliest Speer loading manuals.

Rick

[405]

ditto, ditto.
What you're seeing is the effect of loss of zero headspace control.... whether it be the ammo or the gun. The '06 with its 17.5 degree shoulder (and cartridges of similar design) will often show this. For cast bullet/target work where you want the brass to last you need to fireform first shot with new brass with the cast bullet jammed pretty hard into the lands. You need to do this with a load that produces about 30K psi. Don't do this with a top end load with a Jbullet! There after, set the sizing die so it doesn't set the shoulder back when sizing.

[shotman]

are you single shot shooting ??? the bolt is not made for that . bet you are . put in mag and feed that way

[ilcop22]

Simple. Size an empty case, expand the neck and bellmouth it (like you would a straight-walled pistol case)...
Gear

I got the results after following your instructions... I had to go all the way to .002 short of the max OAL to get the boolit to just touch the grooves. I was loading to 3.070... Force to close the bolt is a tiny bit less than what it takes to close in the M2 ball (see: insignificant). I've attached a photo to compare the old (left) vs the new (right) length.

[stronics]

It's just what geargnasher said, too much resizing, pushing the shoulder back causing too much headspace.
I built some headspace gauges to measure the shoulder to case head length bacause I found I was doing the same thing. Remember each turn of the die is .071" . 1/4 turn is approx .018". It don't take much to resize too much.
David

[captaint]

stronics - The most effective way to "feel" headspace is to take your bolt apart and use the stripped bolt when chambering a sizing/test round. You do this in orer to see how much to size your brass and not set the shoulder back. With the stripped bolt, you can really feel the boltface push the empty brass "home". Try it.. enjoy Mike

[Larry Gibson]

Many times if the cases are FLS'd and the load does not have the psi to expand the cases to fill the camber the force of the primer will push the shoulder of the case back a little. The more firings the greater the push back becomes until the case has too short of a headspace measurement. In the case of the M1903, and othe control feed bolts the set back can only be as much as the extractor allows. Misfires won't happen if the firing pin has the correct prtrusion but primer back out becomes obvious. With push feeds misfires can become a problem as the headspace becomes short enoygh that the extractor does not hold the case back and eventually the firing pin does not reach the primer enough.

Backed out primers are a symptom of incorrect headspace, either too much chamber headspace or too little cartridge headspace or a combination of both. Correct setting up of the die and sizing is important as mentioned. If the die is set correctly to size the case for the cahmber correctly then there are three solutions to keep problem from continuing; use well fire formed cases and neck size only, increase the powder charge to expand the cases, drill out flash oles to larger diameter. The 1st and 3rd or both are usually the best solutions.

All this is well documented.

Larry Gibson

[45-70 Chevroner]

To make it easier to see the rifling marks on the boolit, just paint the boolit with a black marking pen the rifling marks will be vary easy to see.

[USSR]

Regarding the hang fires. Do not use Wolf or Tula primers with small charges of 4895. I had the same problem, and found blackened kernals of powder near the flash hole and the rest of the powder was normal. The Russian primers are a very mild primer and I use them all the time with my full power match loads for 1,000 yard competition, but when you use them with low powered loads with a reduced charge weight, they simply are not "hot" enough for consistent combustion. WLR's or Fed 210's will light them up every time.

Don

[leadman]

A fool-proof way to determine maximum overall length of a particuler bullet or boolit in a firearm other than a revolver is easy. Midway sells a cheap kit, or one is easily made. I will explain the procedure with the Midway kit.
Select a cleaning rod longer than the bore and install one of the flat tipped plastic ends in the cleaning rod in place of the jag. Close the bolt on an empty chamber, use one of the plastic pieces with the thumb screw to mark the end of the barrel. Remove the bolt, place a loose boolit in the chamber and push it up to the rifling with a pencil or similar boject and hold it there. Put the cleaning rod up to the tip of the boolit, place the other plastic piece with the thumbscrew against the end of the barrel and tighten. The distance between the 2 plastic pieces is your max. OAL in that gun with that boolit.

Think I only paid like $7 for this kit, but it is simple to make your own. It is important to have something in the end of the cleaning rod so the bullet tip does not enter it and throw off your reading.

I also do not crimp my cast boolit loads unless it is for a levergun, then as little as I can get away with.
The lead boolit can be crimped down, then the brass springs back leaving the boolit too loose in the case.

[geargnasher]

Following what Leadman said, if you leave just enough flare on the case mouth, and it's a good, centered flare, it will help center the cases in the chamber during fireforming and help greatly with neck/shoulder concentricity. After fireform loads are shot, you can continue to leave a bit of flare to help guide the boolit home during chambering, and maybe a bit during firing.

Gear

[ilcop22]

Very helpful information, thank you all. I think I'll take the load back to the drawing board, likely with a different powder. I use 4895 simply because I have a lot of it for my M1. I avoid using dacron filler simply because it's an added cost and an added step I'd like to avoid.

[geargnasher]

You can get a lifetime supply out of an old Polyester pillow.

It's cheap at the fabric store, too, you can buy a square yard of it for a couple dollars, and if you get the 1/4" variety that they sell in rolls, you can cut it into squares with scissors and that really saves the time of weighing it, just figure out the size square you need for the weight you want.

Just sayin', it's cheaper than buying a pound of a different kind of powder.

Gear

[cbrick]

To make it easier to see the rifling marks on the boolit, just paint the boolit with a black marking pen the rifling marks will be vary easy to see.

Marking pen works well. I use the same stuff I use for case necks to be neck sized only. The Birchwood Casey sight black, (do yourself a favor and NEVER put that @#$% on your open sights) it works wonders on both the ogive of the bullet and/or the case neck to check sizing/seating depth. Just a little squirt and your good to go and it wipes right off when your finished.

Rick

[geargnasher]

Sharpie or prussian blue in a spray can. Sometimes it helps when trying to fit the first or second band to the throat when partial-sizing the boolits.

Gear

[ilcop22]

Howdy,

I took the new length round to the range. I'm not seeing a big difference in accuracy (if any) between the seat depths. I shot two different boolits in a variety of loads, variety of lengths @50 yards. All the various rounds grouped in a 2x3" group, 3 inches below the POA. M2 ball consistently groups at POA in 1 MOA. Getting a good load in 30-06 still has me scratching my head. I'm running out of ideas as nothing I've tried has resembled the performance I'm getting from M2 ball.

[skeet1]

ilcop22
Take the M2 empties and neck size with a Lee collet die and you will end your backed out primers with lite loads. I think other have said to seat your bullets out to engrave into your rifling, after you shoot these loads use the collet die and load as normal.

Ken

[gray wolf]

stronics - The most effective way to "feel" headspace is to take your bolt apart and use the stripped bolt when chambering a sizing/test round. You do this in orer to see how much to size your brass and not set the shoulder back. With the stripped bolt, you can really feel the boltface push the empty brass "home". Try it.. enjoy Mike

This is just about a MUST do in order to get the true feel
of what's going when you close the bolt.
I was taught to check head space with one layer of masking tape on the back of the case.
Stick it on and trim around the case head so it's nice and neat.
The masking tape is about .004 and the bolt should not close with it in place.
If it does close you need to bump the shoulder till it will not close on the tape. But will close without it. With a stripped bolt and the proper head space you should just barely feel resistance when you close the bolt ( barely )
There are some other ways to get the ojive to just hit the rifling but you have been given some ways that should work for you. Remember just toughing is not Jam.
You may not want to start with the bullet having long skid marks on it, indicating jammed into the barrel. Magic marker, Thin nail polish, candle flame, Many things will mark the bullet for you.


Sam

[ilcop22]

I did some more adjustments, different powder weights... Going to test the loads tomorrow morning. I'll post the results...

[ilcop22]

I determined the appropriate OAL for my rifle last night, and loaded up five (5) loads to try. The attached image shows the results. The 1" squares are POA. The POI points to its respective POA. The rifle I used is sighted for M2 ball, so obviously adjustments need to be made eventually.

The rifle is a M1903a3 with a 4 groove barrel, acraglass bedded in a new CMP stock.
Cases are Greek HXP M2 Ball, Wolf Large Rifle primer, FL sized, mouth expanded then crimped. Boolit is a Lee C309-180-R seated to 3.320", sized to .309, GC'd and lubed with FWFL. The powder is Red Dot. I shot 5 loads: 10, 11, 12, 12.5 and 13 grains. 12 and 12.5 grain loads produced the best groups from a rest; .75" 3 shot and 2" 5 shot groups at 50 yards. 10 and 11 grains were not up to par.

Thanks again to everyone who contributed to this thread. Your advice helped me to resolve my struggle with this particular rifle's load. :drinks:

[Gtek]

Bolt Gun? Why not go a couple rounds just dealing with necking. Dedicate amount of given brass to one Boolit delivery system. Made my life a whole lot easier and you might find a little tighter on paper. If you find the point you start splitting necks, back up a couple on new batch, anneal and bump shoulders. Most wear out their brass on press, not going bang. As for seating depth- Hornady now owns the cartridge length tool, slick and easy, not much money. Gtek

[geargnasher]

I'm a little puzzled on your switch to Red Dot. I suppose you were trying to get a powder that assuredly will light and not cause your hang-fires, but you might have thrown the baby out with the bathwater here.

Allow me to explain that. In a bolt-action .30-'06, with the huge case and those "fairly" heavy boolits, a powder that builds and peaks pressure very quickly, almost peaking before the boolit even moves, can tend to distort, mushroom the base, and bend the unsupported parts of the boolit before it gets a good, gentle, straight start in the rifling. While Red Dot can and has been loaded accurately and successfully in this caliber, I just don't think it's the best choice for accuracy with a 180 grain boolit. I'd say at least slow down to Unique, if not 2400. Personally, I've shot a lot of Unique and lighter boolits (115-grain) in my .30-'06, finding the accuracy window at about 1300 fps in my particular gun.

I've found it very helpful in general cast boolit shooting to use a powder that is as slow-burning as possible (or has the effect of as gradual a pressure rise as possible for the desired muzzle velocity) with cast boolits, expecially in bottleneck rifle cartridges. I first tried loading with this approach as a base philosophy after it was suggested to me by more than a few members here a couple of years ago, and after quite a bit of testing, I've found it to be "a" very good way to load accurate rifle ammo. Popgun-level loads with fast powder can be quite accurate, and anything in-between if you balance powder/alloy/lube/pressure-time curve, but I've found it easier to get good accuracy in many instances by using the slowest powder that will create enough pressure to seal the cases in the chamber (no soot on the shoulder or case body and minimal on the neck) and achieve the velocity range I'm trying for.

The reason I specify velocity as a goal here is it's often dictated by the alloy I'm using and the shooting distance. Once I establish a goal and select an alloy and lube, I choose a powder that I think will be close based upon study of published reloading data, then work up loads until the case seals, all the while observing group trends on the paper. Others have and use Quickload or similar, but I'm still doing it by burning components and looking at chronograph data and targets, I learn more that way.

Just as an example, if I were looking for a 100-yard paper puncher with a 180-grain boolit and Felix lube, I would start out using water-quenched wheel weights, or perhaps water-quenched 60/40 wheel weights/pure lead, and something like 3031, 4064, or even IMR4350. Any of the AA, Alliant, or Hodgdon equivalents would be fine too. I'd be sorely tempted to use about 3/4 grain of Dacron with all of them. I would be thinking of 18-2200 fps, and work up carefully while observing the groups on target. There will often be a distinct "sweet spot" where each powder gives the best groups with a certain charge weight and your particular choice of components in your gun, the challenge is to find what works best.

Again, this is just one way I might try to tackle this, having some hindsight to guide me now. There are many ways to get a rifle to shoot straight, but balance of pressure-time curve, alloy, lube, boolit weight, primer brisance, velocity, etc. to the twist rate, weight, harmonics, and other nuances of your particular gun is ultimately the key to success.

That and really good boolit fit.

Hope this helps some,

Gear

[ilcop22]

Well explained and very helpful as always, gear. I switched to Red Dot for two reasons: Economy and simplicity. I shoot a lot of 30-06, and the price adds up. Additionally, narrowing down the right powder weight was quick and easy with only a 3 grain difference to test out. This load is just a quick and dirty paper puncher out to 100 yards. The Red Dot load isn't the end all load, however.

If I ever go hunting outside this silly state of mine (center fire rifle hunting is illegal in Illinois, save for coyote extermination), I intend on using this above mentioned 1903a3 or my 1903 pedersen. I'm still looking to work up a good, heavy hitting load (at much greater velocities) for that purpose with either the Lee C309-180-R or C309-170-F. The powders I'm experimenting with on that end are IMR 4895 and 4831, both slow burners as you mentioned. Why those powders? I use them in my M1 for condom loads (maybe some casts in the near future, too).

[HangFireW8]

The powders I'm experimenting with on that end are IMR 4895 and 4831, both slow burners as you mentioned. Why those powders? I use them in my M1 for condom loads (maybe some casts in the near future, too).

Really? 4831 isn't the best for M1 op-rods... unless very downloaded, but light loads of very slow powder have other issues.

4895 would be my choice.

Very good advice from Gear, I call it PFL or "Partial Full Length" sizing. I do it on all my factory guns, my custom barreled guns are all minimum headspace and going through this measuring routine just puts me back at standard full length sizing.

As for your original question, all your primers always back out, even on high pressure loads. The difference is, on high pressure loads, the case stretches back to recapture the primer.

On very high pressure loads, this leads to the top hat or flat primer appearance. Even more pressure can put a teat on the primer as it extrudes into the firing pin hole.

[Shiloh]

Could be a headspace issue as well. Had the same problem on an '03 before rebarreling.
Did it with cast and jacketed.

Shiloh

[midnight]

My #1 Mark 4 used to back out the primers with normal loads. In my case it was a headspace issue. Fortunately, Enfields have detachable bolt heads. They are 0, 1, 2, &3. 0 is the shortest and each one lengthens by 0.003. Swapping bolt heads solved the problem.

Bob