Gas prices

[Wayne Smith]

No, not a complaint thread.

When LOML was in the oil patch working she knew the cost point where it became ecomonical for new development/exploration of American oil and the cost point of economical oil shale development.

That knowledge is now 25 years out of date. I'm wondering if anyone here has that information currently given a) inflation and b) changes in the oil patch (techonology, etc.).

I'm curious because this information can inform long term choices, not because it would have any immediate or even short term impact. I realize most of these changes require a) reasonably stable prices and b) time to get on-line.

[white eagle]

I can't answer you question
but how about those gas prices :violin:

[bearcove]

Don't know now but, 15 years ago $20 a barrel was profitable in Alaska.

Based on that they can probably make money anywhere short of the moon.

[GabbyM]

Kalifornia could balance the state budget if they would allow drilling off the coast.

[runfiverun]

80$ will prompt new drilling.
natural gas usually follows oil price increases but it isn't doing so this time.
leading me to believe that these oil prices are being driven up more by speculators than by oil demand.
i just barely got off the phone with a company rep to a smaller oil/gas company discussing this and a few other lease issues.

[MtGun44]

Fracking and horizontal drilling are completely rewriting the economics of oil and gas
production. Places that have been known to contain oil and gas, but were poor producers
are now able to produce vastly more quantities than in the recent past.

The anti-conventional energy folks are scrambling to figure out a way to stop this technology
from interfeting with their carefully orchestrated shortages and high prices.

Bill

[klcarroll]

The anti-conventional energy folks are scrambling to figure out a way to stop this technology from interfeting with their carefully orchestrated shortages and high prices.



Why does there ALWAYS have to be a Deep, Dark Conspiracy at the root of ALL of our problems, rather than something simple; ………like a shortage of readily available commodities?

There isn’t always someone to blame! ……….Sometimes it’s just a matter of “Chit Happens!”


Kent

[Catshooter]

So what does LOML stand for? Love of My Life?


Cat

[MtGun44]

Many people prefer that we do not use petroleum or coal or gas "because it is bad for
the planet". If you don't think that these people wake up every single day and spend
all their effort doing everything that they can to make it harder to produce, sell, use,
import or do anything with conventional fuels you have not been paying attention. There
are also big companies, like GE that have invested very heavily in windmills and such
and need conventional fuels to cost a lot more to make their products sell. Would you
think that maybe they are working in their own business interest, which is for normal
fuels to cost more and be hard to come by?

Pres. Obama said that under his Cap and Trade policy, which will force us to stop use
of coal for powerplants "electricity rates would necessarily skyrocket".

Please - don't take my word for it, here it is from the man him himself:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=BqHL404zhcU&feature=related

Bill

[bearcove]

Yes, the idea is alt energy will be cost effective WHEN fossil fuels cost more.

[Charlie Sometimes]

The only shortage we have in the world right now is common sense.
If it were common, everyone would have it! :grin:
So it is more like RARE sense.

[bearcove]

Actually Thrift might be the true shortage, greed and glutony seem to rule these days.

[Gee_Wizz01]

Last week the Saudi's said they work looking at cutting production because there was not enough demand to support their current production rates. The latest reports I read said we were "Awash in oil". It doesn't take a lot imagination to figure out whats going on. And todays headlines "EPA wont allow new drilling in Alaska". Last month the administration allowed new oil leases in the Gulf, but now they are reviewing drilling procedures and environmental issues before issuing drilling permits. Tell my this is all just sound policy and normal procedures. The administration is trying to drive up gas prices, it just happened faster than planned.

G

[runfiverun]

Fracking and horizontal drilling are completely rewriting the economics of oil and gas
production. Places that have been known to contain oil and gas, but were poor producers
are now able to produce vastly more quantities than in the recent past.

The anti-conventional energy folks are scrambling to figure out a way to stop this technology
from interfeting with their carefully orchestrated shortages and high prices.

Bill

the fracturing and horizontal drilling do open new worlds.
i work in the fracturing field.
and dan walker is a horizontal drilling engineer.
i recently come home from following him around the bakken formation
he'd start the deal and i'd make the well work.
with out fracturing most wells will not produce, and quite often a well will sit open with holes shot/burned through the casing and cement into the producing zone.
till we get there.
as soon as we connect everything, and reopen the tree to the well bore, it is often on a suck and will pull fluid through our equipment.

[SciFiJim]

with out fracturing most wells will not produce, and quite often a well will sit open with holes shot/burned through the casing and cement into the producing zone.
till we get there.
as soon as we connect everything, and reopen the tree to the well bore, it is often on a suck and will pull fluid through our equipment.

I am sorry, but I didn't understand this. Can you translate it to common English?

[Buckshot]

..............Oil is based on U.S. Dollars. Our dollars are becoming worth less and less each month.

...............Buckshot

[Bret4207]

Why does there ALWAYS have to be a Deep, Dark Conspiracy at the root of ALL of our problems, rather than something simple; ………like a shortage of readily available commodities?

There isn’t always someone to blame! ……….Sometimes it’s just a matter of “Chit Happens!”


Kent

Try not thinking of it terms of a "Conspiracy". Try thinking of it in terms of business models, political goals, undercutting the competition, ensuring profit. When you think of it in those terms, when you realize the the controllers are purposely devaluing our dollar and that speculation is part of the trading system...it doesn't require a conspiracy per se to work like one.

[Maineboy]

We've been spoiled. We're used to cheap petroleum and we need alot of it. The major reserves lie in other countries; even if we developed the heck out of ours, it wouldn't meet our demands. Now that worldwide demand is increasing and the US dollar is decreasing in value we're going to have to get used to these prices. Throw the speculators in the mix and we have double trouble. It really hits hard with folks who have to travel long distances to work and those of us in cold climates who heat with fuel oil or kerosene. That stuff is as expensive as gasoline. Yesterday a gallon of 87 grade gas was $4.069. My 4 wheel drive GMC Sierra gets about 16 miles per gallon and my wife's Honda CRV gets 23. We've certainly had to change our driving habits.

[Wayne Smith]

LOML was Area Engineer, Texaco, Signal Hill field and fracking was going on then. She was involved in one of the first polymer flood projects in the US.

I agree a change in administration is required before we know the difference between political 'reality' and everyone else's reality when it comes to oil prices, among other things.

Run5, is the $80 a wellhead price?

[MT Gianni]

I am sorry, but I didn't understand this. Can you translate it to common English?

A booger in your nose restricts air flow. Fracturing cleans things out and opens flow from sources that were formerly sluggish or plugged.

[redneckdan]

I am sorry, but I didn't understand this. Can you translate it to common English?




the fracturing and horizontal drilling do open new worlds.
i work in the fracturing field.
and dan walker is a horizontal drilling engineer.
i recently come home from following him around the bakken formation
he'd start the deal and i'd make the well work.

Dan punches the holes, runfive makes them flow.



with out fracturing most wells will not produce, and quite often a well will sit open with holes shot/burned through the casing and cement into the producing zone.
till we get there.

He is saying the hole is drilled. The pipe is in place but nothing is flowing.





as soon as we connect everything, and reopen the tree to the well bore, it is often on a suck and will pull fluid through our equipment.

He is say that when they hook to the tree (a collection of valves, spools and fittings that sit on the well head) and open it up to start injecting a fluid that the well is actually under a vacuum instead of under pressure. They inject a fluid into the well then put it under a lot of pressure to fracture the rock and get things flowing. Thing of it kind of like dropping a quarter stick into a silted up water well. The shock waves knocks things lose and exposes more water bearing strata in the well.

[Wayne Smith]

We've been spoiled. We're used to cheap petroleum and we need alot of it. The major reserves lie in other countries; even if we developed the heck out of ours, it wouldn't meet our demands. Now that worldwide demand is increasing and the US dollar is decreasing in value we're going to have to get used to these prices. Throw the speculators in the mix and we have double trouble. It really hits hard with folks who have to travel long distances to work and those of us in cold climates who heat with fuel oil or kerosene. That stuff is as expensive as gasoline. Yesterday a gallon of 87 grade gas was $4.069. My 4 wheel drive GMC Sierra gets about 16 miles per gallon and my wife's Honda CRV gets 23. We've certainly had to change our driving habits.

The US has plenty of oil. It's just that much of it is in oil shale and more expensive to develop. Yes, that means higher prices, but once things stabilize it also means relatively predictable prices once Communist politics are out of the way.

[Maineboy]

The US has plenty of oil. It's just that much of it is in oil shale and more expensive to develop. Yes, that means higher prices, but once things stabilize it also means relatively predictable prices once Communist politics are out of the way.

As I understand it, we're only producing 49% of the oil products we consume. Assuming we don't cut back on our petroleum use, can we produce enough additional oil to make up the difference? If so, how long could we continue to do so? I'd like to see it happen. Right now we're sending a lot of money to other countries. I don't understand your reference to communism.

[runfiverun]

$80 is market price.
in most fracturing the idea is to pop open the formation and then to pump sand in there to hold open the fracture.
there are several different types of fracturing jobs.
think of it as blowing up a baloon then filling it with marbles when the baloon has had the air let out the marbles are still there allowing air/gas /oil, to still flow around the marbles.
overly simple explanation.

dan is a drilling engineer, he figures the angles the rig needs to tilt,depth to start and finish the turns to hit the formations.
for instance the bakken is huge around but is very thin.
his job is to go down15-18,000' make a turn and shove a pipe 15,000' sideways and keep the whole length in the 3'-6' thick formation.

[MtGun44]

Bret is right on top, as usual. No big "conspiracy", but there are folks with political ideas
that they are trying to impliment and companies with new business models that require
high oil prices for them to succeed. GE is only one of them. Lots of companies have
invested in "alternate energy" and will lose BILLIONS if the price of oil drops down. They
have decided that their best business strategy is to get the government to limit oil and
gas production and drilling as much as possible, which will make money for them. Not a
conspiracy, but a concerted business effort to force the price of conventional energy, coal,
gas and oil up so that they can get and stay rich.

Oil companies are trying to get and stay rich by providing reasonably priced oil and gas,
and they are being excoriated as "Big Oil" and called the bad guys.

By the way - the biggest speculators in oil are the large state and union pension funds, so if
you want to look at somebody to blame - check out how much of the state teachers retirement
fund is invested in "commodities" or your union retirement funds, too. This is really
screwing with oil prices in a destabilizing way.

But one of the main underlying issues is that Bernanke is devaluing the dollar by printing
billions a week.

runfiverun - keep up the good work. We need that improved access to all that Baaken oil. I didn't
realize that the oil bearing strata was that thin. Thank goodness for modern, accurate horizonatal drilling
technology and you fracing guys. Very neat technology, seems simple, but I'll bet that the actual
figuring of how to make it work and implimenting has taken a lot of smart folks a lot of time.
Well done, sir! The country owes a vote of thanks to the oil patch workers making US oil production
work.

Bill

[onondaga]

It is a 14 mile drive to the range at my club. That is 2 gallons fuel for my Jeep round trip. Social Security Disability is my income.

North Dakota has oil enough for 200 years of American use. I believe our country could pleasantly relocate everyone there who didn't want to work in the oil industry to a different state, start drilling and using that oil, building refineries in the new oil state and make a profit charging me far less than the $5.00 a gallon I am paying in Western New York.. What is the unemployment rate in North Dakota anyway? Many would be happy to have a job in the oil industry or relocate at no expense to them.

Annex North Dakota oil for 200 years is a plausible and realistic solution for American economy and Oil Independence from the rest of the world. It is but one of 50 states and the small sacrifice is worthy for America. Give it to a conglomerate of existing and private start up oil companies with the most economical plans.

America is a very oil rich nation. Drive across the rarely mentioned state of Pennsylvania and see the many thousand shut down oil wells and ask the owners why they aren't pumping. The not so shocking answer is that they and the former refineries cannot afford to comply with federal regulations that have stifled nearly the entire state economy and caused severe poverty, hardship and unemployment. Those people of Pennsylvania would happily replace the people in North Dakota that don't want to work in or support the Oil Industry.

Gary

[Bullshop]

.....dan is a drilling engineer, he figures the angles the rig needs to tilt,depth to start and finish the turns to hit the formations.
for instance the bakken is huge around but is very thin.
his job is to go down15-18,000' make a turn and shove a pipe 15,000' sideways and keep the whole length in the 3'-6' thick formation......

To me this is mind boggling!

[Heavy lead]

It is a 14 mile drive to the range at my club. That is 2 gallons fuel for my Jeep round trip. Social Security Disability is my income.

North Dakota has oil enough for 200 years of American use. I believe our country could pleasantly relocate everyone there who didn't want to work in the oil industry to different state, start drilling and using that oil, building refineries in the new oil state and make a profit charging me far less than the $5.00 a gallon I am paying in Western New York.. What is the unemployment rate in North Dakota anyway? Many would be happy to have a job in the oil industry or relocate at no expense to them.

Gary

It's too bad New York City and San Francisco don't have this much oil. We could buy them all new homes (in Russia or China) and do the same you propose.:p

[klcarroll]

……….Many people prefer that we do not use petroleum or coal or gas "because it is bad for the planet". If you don't think that these people wake up every single day and spend all their effort doing everything that they can to make it harder to produce, sell, use, import or do anything with conventional fuels you have not been paying attention…………

………..Yes, the idea is alt energy will be cost effective WHEN fossil fuels cost more….





A) The Oil Industry……..
B) The Coal Industry…….
C) The Wind Energy Industry…….
D) The Solar Power Industry………
E) The Nuclear Energy Industry……

……….Pick the one you like, and the list automatically provides you with four Bad Guys to blame the Country’s problems on: ……It’s kinda like a board game.

Too bad that something that simple just won’t work in Real Life!

All five of the “players” on the list have serious problems, and NONE of them has the potential to offer a Total Solution.

Here is a brief overview of the major points:

A) The Oil Industry: ……There is only so much oil! …..There will eventually be a point where no more can be economically extracted; ….And that point will probably be reached in less than 150 years. (…better start planning ahead!)

B) The Coal Industry: ……Producing relatively clean energy from Coal isn’t particularly cheap, and Strip Mining for coal is one of the most “land destructive” energy related operations. ….And even though there is A LOT of coal in the ground, it (like oil) is a finite resource.

C) The Wind Energy Industry: …….This technology will never be more than 5% - 8% of the Total Package. Wind turbines are not particularly cheap, they require expensive maintenance, and they are not particularly compatible will the Agricultural Industries. There are already studies under way that are examining the negative effects they have on the Micro-Climates immediately down-wind.

D) The Solar Energy Industry: ……Another technology that will be lucky to capture 8% of the total Energy Market! ……The Collectors are expensive, and the areas that have consistent and abundant Solar Energy tend to be a long way from the Urban Centers that need the energy. This is also another technology that has yet un-studied long term effects: (…Remember, the energy these Solar Collectors gather up in their local region is already doing something! ….It’s creating the weather the local residents are used to!)

E) The Nuclear Energy Industry: …..The only member of the above list that has the potential to fill the gap that will be left by the Oil Industry: ……But it is cursed with a formidable list of “PR” related problems. The two most important issues are Waste Storage and Plant Safety. Even though the Nuclear Industry has a good safety record (..in terms of body count) compared to Oil and Coal, the “Sci-Fi” nature of the threats has the Public frightened. (……And the recent events in Japan have probably set Public Confidence back 50 years!)


All of this adds up to one hell of a mess, and it is going to take a realistic interaction between the advocates and critics of ALL of these industries to sort it out:

….But simply finding a way to burn whatever petroleum is left, without worrying about the other aspects of the issue, is the hallmark of a person who hasn’t been “Paying Attention”!


Kent



…..

[troyboy]

You can not cut off your nose to spite your face. True oil is not going to last forever and neither is coal. They are the solution for now while a solution can be developed for the future. We need to utilize all available technology and develop new technology for the future. That means mining coal and drilling for oil now in the USA, while r&d for alternate energy takes place. All this would equate to jobs and stimulate the economy by putting Americans back to work.

[runfiverun]

if, and ths is a big if.
someone were to think clearly about the situation and not play politics,money,or other games.
there would be plants producing nuclear power right now for most every home in this country.

oil would be being made [yes made] in places like nevada,arizona,new mexico,and texas.
there are the oil shale sands in utah and other places that contain billions of bbls of oil.
could we get it?
yep, it however needs natural gas to refine it.

we could build new and better oil refineries to get more per bbl.
solar technology would need to be on a per household basis, as it would cover too much area to be viable as a business.
is this stuff ever gonna happen?
nope. not untill the government quits making more money on a bbl of oil than the oil companies do.

the oil co's are not afraid of the government they are afraid of environmentalists, and thier agencies.
much the same agencies that are screwing us over is the same ones doing them over also.
you keep on hearing numbers about what the oil companys make,well they make what they do in volumne and world wide business.
you don't hear about the broken wells, the technology developed, the man hours spent, the dry holes, countless hours seisemographing the middle of nowhere, leasing land from the blm,state and private owners,
the red tape,infrastructure,competition, rules and safety issues.
and on and on.

and Dan.
if you wanna see something cool you should see a drilling rig pick up move over 10 feet lean over a different direction and start all over again by itself.

[Bret4207]

A little OT, but in the last few days I have seen several older "econo-boxes" on the road. Several Dodge Omni's, including a particularly clean wood grain wagon, an old diesel Rabbit, a nice old Rabbit PU and a really nice 60ish Econoline PU, restored, said to get over 30 mpg back in the day. Makes me wonder why we can't produce inexpensive, simple vehicles that get good mileage anymore. Honestly, while all the frills are pleasant, I don't need AC, powder windows/door locks/seats, 400 hp, an extra 700 lbs of air bags, etc. I would like to see geaseable ball joints, spring shackles, etc. and an engine the owner could actually work on.

I'm dreaming, I know.

[chaos]

A little OT, but in the last few days I have seen several older "econo-boxes" on the road. Several Dodge Omni's, including a particularly clean wood grain wagon, an old diesel Rabbit, a nice old Rabbit PU and a really nice 60ish Econoline PU, restored, said to get over 30 mpg back in the day. Makes me wonder why we can't produce inexpensive, simple vehicles that get good mileage anymore. Honestly, while all the frills are pleasant, I don't need AC, powder windows/door locks/seats, 400 hp, an extra 700 lbs of air bags, etc. I would like to see geaseable ball joints, spring shackles, etc. and an engine the owner could actually work on.

I'm dreaming, I know.

A great deal of the difference is in the formulation of current Fuels. The specific gravity of todays fuel is much different than in the past. Everytime they come out with a cleaner fuel, it is lighter and cuts milage. The removal of sulphur from diesel did nothing but hurt milage.

The same is true with all the emission control Crapola strapped to motors today
Folks used to cut all the smog controls off of engines to produce less drag.

I agree with you, who needs TV's, Gps, and all the assorted BS on trucks these days.I just use my pick-up as a truck. No need for the added mini bar, heated seats, 17 cd disk changer, remote start, etc...

[cajun shooter]

The USA has enough oil to allow our current use to continue for over 100 years according to a released study about one month ago. This report is speaking of the oil reserves off the eastern and western coastal area's. Living in a state all my life that provides over 33% of the oil used I feel I have a say. If the people in those areas want to be without the oil rigs and equipment required to extract it then let them pay $10 a gallon for the fuel they are sent. Any state that helps with the current crisis will only have to pay a fair amount that will be determined by the production. We have too many who want to let someone else do it and leave my property alone. The other reason we have the current prices is from speculators who buy and sell futures and set the price that every one else pays. These people are making millions or billions while the working class use the piggy bank money to buy fuel.

[Wayne Smith]

We would love to help. Virginia is begging the Federal Govt. for permission to explore off the coast. Great big NO!

[ktw]

The other reason we have the current prices is from speculators who buy and sell futures and set the price that every one else pays. These people are making millions or billions while the working class use the piggy bank money to buy fuel.

The commodity speculators are a necessary part of the market. They are assuming supply and demand risk that the producers and wholesalers are choosing to avoid by buying and selling futures contracts. The market wouldn't work without them.

If you think commodity speculation is all "money for nothing" there is nothing stopping you from getting into the game. :wink:

-ktw

[GabbyM]

The commodity speculators are a necessary part of the market. They are assuming supply and demand risk that the producers and wholesalers are choosing to avoid by buying and selling futures contracts. The market wouldn't work without them.

If you think commodity speculation is all "money for nothing" there is nothing stopping you from getting into the game. :wink:

-ktw

Come on :

Futures are of course necessary for refineries to lock in a supply of feed stock for there industry.

What consumers get worked p about is manipulation. Various activities which are illegal under US law but are carried out overseas. We have no direct control over this activity.
Agents sitting in tall towers along the Persian Gulf working for oil states around the globe.
Basically locking in futures on there own oil.

Just imagine a farmer hauling a load into a grain elevator. Elevator manager says we pay $4 for corn. Farmer says I pay $4.50. Manager says well then we’ll pay $5. This only works when the farmer and manager are cousins out to gouge the end consumer.

[ktw]

...out to gouge the end consumer.

Nobody in the commodities markets is 'out to get' anyone else. They are there to make as much money as possible, nothing more, nothing less. This is the essence of capitalism and free markets.

Price gouging is simply a pejorative phrase for charging whatever the market will bear. If the market for a particular commodity rises above your willingness to pay, it's time to start re-examining your choices in life, not to start demanding that producers, or governments, subsidize those choices at below market rates.

-ktw

[white eagle]

just go back to the old days when you conquer a
country you own it everything
why do we not get oil at a cut rate for saving these
ess holz in the first place
to much nicey nicey holding hands bs

[felix]

KTW, right on! Explained fully in Luke: 16:19-31 where free markets = free will. ... felix

[redneckdan]

A little OT, but in the last few days I have seen several older "econo-boxes" on the road. Several Dodge Omni's, including a particularly clean wood grain wagon, an old diesel Rabbit, a nice old Rabbit PU and a really nice 60ish Econoline PU, restored, said to get over 30 mpg back in the day. Makes me wonder why we can't produce inexpensive, simple vehicles that get good mileage anymore. Honestly, while all the frills are pleasant, I don't need AC, powder windows/door locks/seats, 400 hp, an extra 700 lbs of air bags, etc. I would like to see geaseable ball joints, spring shackles, etc. and an engine the owner could actually work on.

I'm dreaming, I know.



My thoughts exactly. I need a bomb proof truck with no amenities. No other air handling besides heat and 2-55 air conditioning. Full manual hubs and bring back gear driven transfer cases. Solid front axles would be a definite bonus. It wouldn't even have to be a full size like a 3/4 or 1 ton; something like an 80s toyota with a better body would suit me just fine. I understand that these wouldn't sell fer **** in the major cities. But they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lots here in 'fly over' country.

[scrapcan]

good discussion folks, keep up the rational thinking and the discussions. I am following it.

As Runfiverun has relayed, drilling technology and fracturing technology is unfathomable.

I work on the other side of industry, I work for the dreaded state agency. I work in Water Resources, the quantity and beneficial use side. I however have spent my career so far workign to make sure things happen in a fasion that benefits us all. Sometimes that is not an easy task. I will leave it at that.

It is amazing at what can and is being done. The down side is that trickle down economics happen, People want and need to make money. this can result in making money in not so correct ways.

We see the little guy with a few semi tractors and tankers disposing of produced fluid in a means not acceptable, that then lends creedence to the reputation that the Oil and Gas industry now has in many peoples eyes. Or we see someone who wants ot make a bit more money by obtaining large voumes of water in an unlawfull manner. Those individuals that saved the operator a few bucks now cost the entire industry. It is a tough situation, and gets tougher when the gold rush starts. This is an issue in the unconventional oil and gas industry as people living in those areas do not understand the industry which is now their neighbor.

I can also tell you wonderful stories of how a certain seismic outfit treats landowners who work in good faith with them. It begins with violating all terms of access (which were very little), unauthorized and unlawfull access that ended in damage to real property, lies to the local enforcement that had them wanting to charge the landowner with harboring stolen property (property that was placed on the property and was covered under the surface entry permit that was violated and from a legal aspect is no longer valid). And above all the attitude of the company personel. The story does not have an ending yet, I venture to guess the landowner will end up with a very bad attitude and word of mouth travels faster than mention of good deads.

I also agree that nuclear energy could be a possibility. I think it will have to have a change in scale of the operations. How large is the reactor on a nuclear sub or an aircraft carrier? Would the same size/type/engineered unit not work for distributed power production? It would work where there is cooling water, but generally those places are also full of not in my back yard types. It is also only one part of a solution, not the only solution.

If we use it we should be willing to have it in our backyard. I live/work/play in a state the is basically here due to extractive minerals so probably have a different take on the issue than many others.

So what does that all mean? Not a damn thing, other than when I hear big oil and the bad reputation I say if they don't want the reputation then clean house. This is the same house cleaning we need in politics. We can develop our resources, but we also need to do it wisely and together. And if you work for one of the industries or government, no matter what it is, treat people with respect and do what you agree to do.

I will leave it at that as this thread has been very civil and others need to weigh in in the same fashion.

continue on folks, it is good to have a civil conversation on a controversial topic.

[GabbyM]

Nobody in the commodities markets is 'out to get' anyone else. They are there to make as much money as possible, nothing more, nothing less. This is the essence of capitalism and free markets.

Price gouging is simply a pejorative phrase for charging whatever the market will bear. If the market for a particular commodity rises above your willingness to pay, it's time to start re-examining your choices in life, not to start demanding that producers, or governments, subsidize those choices at below market rates.

-ktw

You are referring to the Chicago Board of Trade. Free market and that sort of system.

I’m talking about the real world we live in. Which includes OPEC.

[Bret4207]

My thoughts exactly. I need a bomb proof truck with no amenities. No other air handling besides heat and 2-55 air conditioning. Full manual hubs and bring back gear driven transfer cases. Solid front axles would be a definite bonus. It wouldn't even have to be a full size like a 3/4 or 1 ton; something like an 80s toyota with a better body would suit me just fine. I understand that these wouldn't sell fer **** in the major cities. But they wouldn't be able to keep them on the lots here in 'fly over' country.

I drove a 90 and 91 Toyota PU to the point they were simply no longer road worthy. Being from the Rust Belt, I'm sure you know what I mean when I say "cancer did them in". The 91 in particular I put 380K on, had the 22R 4 banger, stretch cab, auto hubs and 5 speed manual tranny. My wife rolled it once, it was the family car for 4-5 years till the kids got too big for the jump seats in back. I regularly trailerd 100-130 bales of hay on a ho'made tandem axle trailer approximately 100 miles twice a month. That's between 2-3K lbs of load plus the trailer itself with a light half ton PU with a 4 banger. No duallies, no diesel, no 1 ton F350. I never had so much as a hiccup from that truck. in the first 250K miles. Yet today to haul a couple jet skis requires a one ton dually diesel PU with a 4 door cab and lift kit.

Call me a crusty old codger (I'm only 51), but todays "man" needs to learn to use a clutch and "make do" a bit. It would do them good!

[oneokie]

todays "man" needs to learn to use a clutch and "make do" a bit. It would do them good!

But he would not look uber cool.

Saw a blurb on the news this afternoon where many of the deep water drilling platforms that were in the Gulf, have/are being moved to new locations away from the U.S.

[redneckdan]

I drove a 90 and 91 Toyota PU to the point they were simply no longer road worthy.

We have my wifes '86 toyota 2wd. 225,000 on it and it still runs great. Haven't had to do all that much work on it. You are right about the bodies, this one is starting to get bad.

[onesonek]

..............Oil is based on U.S. Dollars. Our dollars are becoming worth less and less each month.

...............Buckshot

Pretty much sums it up,, Need to get rid of Bernanke and the Fed quit printing money for this so called "quantive easing"

[MtGun44]

moved it to a new thread

[smokemjoe]

When I worked the oil patch in the pandhandle 40 years ago we fixed up wells by fracturing and boiling out wth hot water and capped them for future use ? Isnt this the end of the future, Sugar $.75 a pound now.

[Charlie Sometimes]

just go back to the old days when you conquer a country you own it everything
why do we not get oil at a cut rate for saving these ess holz in the first place
to much nicey nicey holding hands bs


I'm all for that rape, pilage and plunder party. :grin:

It don't happen today becuase "1st world" countries think themselves too "civilized".

That is what happened to Rome, remember? Do you remember your history, or at least when they used to teach that subject? I know some of you guys out there do, or at least you heard the stories Grandpa told around the camp fire about what it was like................ :kidding:

I PREFER the basic truck. No need for all that nonsense on these sissy trucks they are producing today.

I'm driving a 1988 S-10, 5-spd STANDARD, 2WD. :smile:

Gonna buy another from my neighbor this week for $500- in better shape than my current model. :grin: He has fancy one now, and don't need this one anymore. :lol:

Will drive that one while I am stripping the other for maximum efficiency and set it up to get the most out of every gallon of gas I put in it. Gonna try to get rid of all that excess BS stuff on the engine, etc.- might even make it bomb proof, too. :lol:
Will definitely be making it work friendly and MORE USEFUL (flat bed, tool box, etc.) for the foreseeable future.

[MT Gianni]

just go back to the old days when you conquer a
country you own it everything
why do we not get oil at a cut rate for saving these
ess holz in the first place
to much nicey nicey holding hands bs

Because China is so close to owning us economically we would be the losers.

[evan price]

A great deal of the difference is in the formulation of current Fuels. The specific gravity of todays fuel is much different than in the past. Everytime they come out with a cleaner fuel, it is lighter and cuts milage. The removal of sulphur from diesel did nothing but hurt milage.

The same is true with all the emission control Crapola strapped to motors today
Folks used to cut all the smog controls off of engines to produce less drag.

I agree with you, who needs TV's, Gps, and all the assorted BS on trucks these days.I just use my pick-up as a truck. No need for the added mini bar, heated seats, 17 cd disk changer, remote start, etc...


I hear what y'all are saying and I agree... however- modern cars & trucks are a far cry different than they were 20 years ago. Back in the 80's car companies didn't want to invest in new technology, computers were too slow and clunky and the Japanese competition wasn't taken as serious yet. So they used old 1950's technology motors, cast iron blocks, carburetors, and tried to strap on all kinds of gizmos and gadgets to make them get better gas mileage and to meet the Federal EPA emissions standards. Engines nowadays make way more power per pound than they ever did before. And you don't need smog pumps, AIR injection systems, miles of vacuum hose, various solenoids, mixture control valves, lean burn carbs, or all that other bad old junk they tried to use back in the 80's.

The modern engine as of 1996 and OBD-II computer systems monitors exhaust oxygen before and after the convertor, air flow into the motor, spark advance in each cylinder, fuel density, air temp, cylinder temp, etc. and does it all on the fly making changes for each compression and ignition event in real time.

The 2012 Ford Mustang with 6-cylinder makes 305 HORSEPOWER! Compare that to my 1984 Mustang LX 5.0 liter V8 which made about HALF that amount for a lot more weight and fuel consumption.

The killer on new cars is the ever-increasing safety standards. Supplemental restraint systems were mandated in the late 80's- you could do airbags or motorized seatbelts. Now it is airbags on top of airbags. Bumper and body crash standards for strength- no, not strong enough, but they have to be weakend, made less strong, so that there is not as much disparity of impact force between large and small vehicles, or vehicles VS pedestrians. You have side impact beams, rollover support beams, rear end collision beams, heck, cars nowadays are the closest we've come to having a race-style roll cage built in from the factory. All that extra metal means weight.

It's hard to make a truly cheap car nowadays when it has to conform to crash test standards, fuel economy standards, emissions standards, and still be profitable.

I would love for them to bring out a real compact pickup like my Toyota trucks of the 80's- 22R motor was a SOLID performer. Almost unkillable (except for rust). I have four of them today. Run perfect but they just start rusting! Basic, simple, cheap, economical, easy to run.

I'm driving a 1994 Toyota T-100 long bed regular cab right now, 3 litre V6, automatic, 2wd, it's about perfect. I also own a Tundra double cab 4x4 with the V8. It's also about perfect. I looked into the new Tundras but they are too big, too heavy, seem a lot more cheaply made, and they are ugly. I don't need a full size truck but I need a bit bigger than a compact truck. I'll drive the wheels off of what I have now because all the car companies keep making stuff bigger and bigger.

Thing is the car companies make more money on a unit basis by selling optioned up models instead of strippers. A former employer wanted me to order two trucks, specs to be 3/4 ton (8-lug wheels), large V8 gas motor (350 CI or thereabouts), manual trans, rubber floor mats/vinyl seats, am-fm stereo, AC & heat, manual windows & locks, trailer tow package, 3.73 gears, heavy duty charging system, brakes and coolers. That's it.

We couldn't find anyone with a truck to meet that spec. We were finally able to find one last-years held over Dodge Ram 2500 with the V10 and 4.10s with a manual trans and rubber interior. Couldnt find another one to match it, the dealer that had it made a screaming cheap deal because nobody wanted it so we bought one truck. Only way to get what we wanted would have been special order through the makers' fleet services and wait 4-6 months for production.

When I was rolling in a 1990 Bonneville with the 3800 I got easy 30 mpg on the highway cruise control at 75 mph and a/c full blast. I drove that car to 282,000 on the odo before rust finally killed it. Why can't a small car do better? I had a Diesel VW Rabbit and got nearly 50 mpg rain or shine, snow or sun. It was slow, it was loud, it was probably not as safe or clean as a VW Polo Bluemotion, but it got 50 MPG and you could fix it with a hammer and a crescent wrench.

I also have a 1989 Jeep Cherokee Laredo with the 4.0 liter and 4x4. I have 300,000 on the original drivetrain and it gets about 18-20 MPG all day long. My Tundra is pushing 200,000 miles on it and the only failed part was an oxygen sensor at 125K and the steering rack rusted out at 165K. The Tundra gets 20 MPG too and I tow all the time.

I don't want bigger & better & fancier. I just want what I have now, it works just fine!

[Lloyd Smale]

I was listening to paul harvey one day on the radio and he called it some kind of a conspiricy. He made this point. He said he had a 79 chevette that got 42 mpg with a carburated 4 cyl. He also said his brother had a 79 chev pickup that got 11 mpg. He said now its 2009 and my small car is multiport fuel injected overhead 4 valve per cylinder ajusted by a computer many times a second and has two more gears and gets 32 mpg. My brother in law just bought a new truck. It technicaly more advanced but not as much so as my car and it gets 20mpg. Now the truck that is less technicaly advanced gets almost twice as much milage and the car with all this technology gets 25 percent worse. He said somethings going on as by now there ought to be cars getting at least 50mpg. Made a guy think!

[GabbyM]

Loyd:
Best example I can put up is the Ford 500 from a few years back. In Britton the car sold with an engine that would get IIRC in the high 30’s mpg. In the USA the only engine you could buy was a high powered V6 which yielded in the low 20’s mpg. Maybe a conspiracy but in my opinion it’s just stupidity. A 265 HP engine isn’t going to break into the econo class especially with the typical jack rabbit American driver at the wheel. I ask a Ford salesman directly about the lack of econo engine option. His response was straight out of Edsel Fords
Days. “If you want to drive a 500 you got to pay”. Fords 500 was a big flop. Fords answer was to rename it back to the Taurus. Flopped some more so they closed the plant here in Illinois. Don’t know if it ever opened back up. Now I can’t decide if that was George Bushes fault or those pesky Unions.

[azcruiser]

Don't think it's the price of gas going up but it's the value of the dollar going down.In February of 2001, the US Dollar would buy about 121 mg of gold. In March of 2011, it will buy about 22 mg of gold, a decline of 82% and its just starting ?

[Wayne Smith]

Granted, the value of the dollar is a significant issue, and intimitely connected with the cost of new development and bringing new technology on line. I'm guessing we are at a price point where it is economocal to develop those resources if there is predicaibility in the present price. I know the lack of stability of the dollar and of the oil price is part of the formule and that it is constantly changing. I'm thinking long term, post Obamanation and to a, God willing, more sensible and practical approach to energy policy.

[GabbyM]

Heard the other day on the news our dollar has dropped eleven cents in the last year. That’s 33 cents on $3 gas. Then there is OPECS game. When we get rid of bummer and start drilling and reduce government spending. Oil will come down and the dollar will raise.

I have to believe that otherwise I run out of beer to quickly.

Most things we eat have gone up 100% in price within a couple years.

[Charlie Sometimes]

EVERYTHING will be much higher before we are through with these idiots and this mess.
The 2nd Coming won't be able to travel at this rate! :kidding:

Gas has been $3.869 to $3.899 most everywhere around the state (where I have been working) for the last 2-3 weeks, with only a few pockets of $4.099, now it is popping out like cancer. One area has had $4.099 for a little over a week- that tells me that GOUGING is taking place, and now everyone else has heard about it and wants in on the act. :sad: