Quenching Question

[LubeckTech]

I usually cast, water quench and then size in a day or two. I have been draining my bullets and spreading them out to dry right after the casting session. Would I get better hardness by leaving them in the water until the next day?

[waksupi]

No. :mrgreen:

[Bullshop]

You may if you size immediately after quenching.

[onondaga]

I believe you would get better results using an alloy that is the hardness you need with out water quenching. The treatment of quench hardening is not permanent and BHN returns back close to untreated hardness in 1-2 years.

Use The alloy that is correct for your needs and drop bullets onto a dry soft towel and air cool. They will not fully harden to their natural capability for about 5-7 days so you have time for sizing/checking when it will be easier.

Anyway a light lube with LLA, 45:45:10 or even case lube before sizing bullets makes even pretty extreme sizing easy. I size .514" R.E.A.L bullets to .501" in #2 alloy with one easy pass after lubing them. I don't have the muscle without the lube.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/th_TLsized.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/?action=view&current=TLsized.jpg)

Lubed unsized/ sized a bunch!

Gary

[Bret4207]

It's time to ask yourself "Why am I quenching in the first place?". If it's just because you think harder is better then it's time to realize hardness is a tool and ask your gun what it really want's.

[gray wolf]

Could you perhaps, maybe, possibly, tell us what your shooting.

[BABore]

I believe you would get better results using an alloy that is the hardness you need with out water quenching. The treatment of quench hardening is not permanent and BHN returns back close to untreated hardness in 1-2 years.

Use The alloy that is correct for your needs and drop bullets onto a dry soft towel and air cool. They will not fully harden to their natural capability for about 5-7 days so you have time for sizing/checking when it will be easier.

Anyway a light lube with LLA, 45:45:10 or even case lube before sizing bullets makes even pretty extreme sizing easy. I size .514" R.E.A.L bullets to .501" in #2 alloy with one easy pass after lubing them. I don't have the muscle without the lube.

http://i30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/th_TLsized.jpg (http://s30.photobucket.com/albums/c338/rhymeswithwhat/?action=view&current=TLsized.jpg)

Lubed unsized/ sized a bunch!

Gary

Have you actually tested 1-2 year old boolits to determine this hardness reduction or are you spreading wives tales?

The reason I ask is because I have. I have been testing both WW alloy and 50/50 WW-Pb alloys for several years. Boolits as old as 5 years show 1-2 bhn hardness reduction at most. Marshall Stanton, at Beartooth Bullets, has had similar results.

[cbrick]

The treatment of quench hardening is not permanent and BHN returns back close to untreated hardness in 1-2 years. Gary

This has not been my experience. Age soften? Yes, but not nearly as fast as many people think. A few years ago while cleaning out the back of the cabinet under my loading bench I came accross some boxes of heat treated RCBS 35 Cal 200 bullets. The boxes were all properly marked with alloy (CWW +2% Sn), oven temp, BHN of 30 and date.

These bullets were 10 years old and had been stored at room temp so I thought they would be putty by now. I was a bit shocked when they checked 26 BHN.

So they did age soften but not enough to matter much. Back to 12 BHN? Not even close.

Yep gray wolf, if we knew what he was shooting it would be possible to know if quenching is needed at all. Too many people fall into the "hardcast" trap thinking harder is better. For a lot of cast shooting it's not needed and can cause it's own problems.

Rick

[white eagle]

I can honestly say that I do not w/q
any boolits for MY guns
why because I'm lazy and the extra step
is an extra step
I prefer Gary s' way of using a harder alloy to begin with
I save w/q for the last resort so to speak
of course your situation is totally dependent on YOUR guns
so let the professor gun tell you what to do

[Wayne Smith]

Personally, I'm shooting the Oldfeller boolit out of my Steyr 95 at 2300fps being pushed with WC867. That I water quench. I'm not the original questioner, though, just one data point provided.

[Doughty]

My experience is similar to that of BABore's. One of my most used hunting loads in .33 Krag (2400 fps) requires WW+PB to be at least 24 BHN on my LBT tester. I try for 26-28 BHN, 3days after casting, oven baking for an hour at 450 on my thermometer, then quinching in room temperature water. Two years after casting, I've never had a reading lower than 24 BHN. Further, 2 year old loaded ammo shows no degradation in accuracy or in killing ability. I've never been able to come up with an unquinched alloy that will do this.

When making bullets for Schuetzen matches, I use a 25-1 lead alloy that I air cool. I try to cast at least 2 weeks ahead of a match, but don't worry about it after that, even if the bullets are not shot for years.

When shooting CBA type matches in the 2000 to 2200 fps range, I would use linotype. I would cast and air cool at least 3 days before shooting. These bullets seldom lasted over a year after being cast before being shot, so can't comment on that.

For general purpose handgun bullets up to 1200 fps, it's ACWW shot whenever I want, days to years, after being cast.

In answer to the OP's question, "No."

[RobS]

Have you actually tested 1-2 year old boolits to determine this hardness reduction or are you spreading wives tales?

The reason I ask is because I have. I have been testing both WW alloy and 50/50 WW-Pb alloys for several years. Boolits as old as 5 years show 1-2 bhn hardness reduction at most. Marshall Stanton, at Beartooth Bullets, has had similar results.

I'll concur with this statement. Even WW boolits that I anneal (made softer) still hold their lower BHN of 10 now past a years time. Some believe that a change happens over a year's time or so, however I have two particular WW boolits in my collection that were cast over 2 years ago and heat treated to 25 BHN, still holding steady at 24 BHN.

I have read a response from Marshall himself on the Beartooth Shooters forum stating that his heat treated boolits will loose 1 BHN over a 18 month period and then stabilize out at 21 BHN. I've noted that the higher heat treated BHN boolits in the upper 20's and 30 do have more room to loose over a very slow time (not as much over a year or two as some might want to believe) but WW boolits I treated at 20-21 BHN area have remained consistent over the years.

LubeckTech: Your boolits will not become harder by leaving them in the water over night. BHN hardness is primarily the result of how hot the boolit is when it hits the water; a hotter boolit will yield a harder BHN until you've reached the point of diminished return (melting them down).

[Bret4207]

Personally, I'm shooting the Oldfeller boolit out of my Steyr 95 at 2300fps being pushed with WC867. That I water quench. I'm not the original questioner, though, just one data point provided.

I'm betting you know that you touched one off when you squeeze the trigger! I love my 95, but she do jump a bit with heavier loads.:p