20 gauge Renegade!!!!

[mellonhead]

I finally got my Renegade barrel sent out to be bored to 20 gauge. So how about some good recipes for some turkey loads. Thanks.

Toby

[405]

Recipe? Call the bird into 20 yds or less and shoot in head/neck with #4-5-6 shot- at least several pellets in that small zone.
Before going.... A dose of reality is in order when it comes to shooting turkeys with cylinder bores and BP. Spend a lot of range time patterning different loads on large pieces of butcher paper.

[mellonhead]

I have actually shot plenty of turkeys with black powder guns. All were with choked 12 gauge guns. I have read a lot about different over powder wads and is what I am most interested in. Thick, thin, lubed, not lubed, what is giving you guys the best results. Thanks again.

Toby

[DIRT Farmer]

All of the turkeys I have killed , I have used a Brown Bess, 11 Ga and my 20 ga trade gun neither have choke.. Load lightfor ga. powder and slightly heavy shot. In my 20 I use 1 1/8 oz of #6 shot and about 70 grns of ffg, over powder card, 1/2 of a 1/2 fiber wad lightly lubed with crisco, bees wax and olive oil and a over shot card. The cylinder bore barrel will give close to a modified pattern with enough shot in the head -neck area for a 35 yard shot. I have taken about 16 birds and all were dead one shot. It does take a lot of patterning to know the best load but the standard "square "load for a 20, 7/8 and 75 grns of powder should work for 20-25 yards with no problem.

[silly goose]

I'm just getting used to my .62 cal flinter, but so far it likes 70gr ffg, and same amount of #6's. Used with op card, fiber wad lubed with crisco and an o/s card. So far she puts 5 pellets in the kill zone on a turkey target at 25 yards, and thats as far as I'd care to try it. I'd prefer he were 5-10 yards closer. Season starts in a week, lets rock. Good luck.

[smoked turkey]

Dirt Farmer has given you good info for a 20 ga. I have a .56 SB (smooth bore) which equates to a 28 gauge. I regularily shoot it with small charges of 50 gr Pyro RS and an equal amount of small shot using basically the same procedure mentioned above with the over powder card/1/2" cushion wad, shot, over shot card which in my case is 1/2 of an over powder card. I get very good results at 30 yards on squirrels. I haven't tried it on turkey, but with some load development and close in shots I am sure it would do the job. The best advice given is for you to do a lot of patterning of your loads and write it all down so you can go back to those best loads.

[RBak]

Dirt Farmer has given you good info for a 20 ga. I have a .56 SB (smooth bore) which equates to a 28 gauge. I regularily shoot it with small charges of 50 gr Pyro RS and an equal amount of small shot using basically the same procedure mentioned above with the over powder card/1/2" cushion wad, shot, over shot card which in my case is 1/2 of an over powder card. I get very good results at 30 yards on squirrels. I haven't tried it on turkey, but with some load development and close in shots I am sure it would do the job. The best advice given is for you to do a lot of patterning of your loads and write it all down so you can go back to those best loads.

I also have a .56 SB barrel for my Renegade, and I have had my best groups with a full 1-1/8oz load, one-half of a 1/2" cushion wad with light coat of lube, over 70gr Goex FFg....I use two OP cards to hold it all together.
(If I remember right, the suggested load for this barrel was like 7/8oz...can't remember for sure.)

In my 62 cal smoothie I use 85gr Goex FFg, 1-1/4oz shot, a 1/2" cushion wad lightly lubed, and two OP cards.

I have not taken a Turkey with the .56 SB, but I would not hesitate with a shot of 50 to 60 feet. I have taken Turkey out to an honest 32 "paces" with the .62 smoothie.
I know the .56 has the power to do it, but for whatever reason, likely a 28" barrel vs a 38" barrel, with both being cylinder bored, you would think with that bore, or "choke" what one would do the other would do but that is just not the case. (I'm just guessing on the reason as I honestly have no clue.)

The .62 has much higher pellet count than the .56 even when using the same amount of shot, whether it be 1 oz, 1-1/8oz, or 1-1/4oz. The barrel on the .62 is a Colerian, whereas the Renegade has a T/C or whoever made the barrel for T/C when this Renegade was produced.

I think if you can get three or four pellets in the head of a Turkey you will have meat on the table. I also think you can do this with with some surprisingly light loads.


Russ

[northmn]

For a turkey gun I would seriously consider getting it jug choked to full. TOW selsl a 20 bore "turkey barrel" jugged full.

DP

[DIRT Farmer]

The main reason I use trade guns is the ability to use them in the mannor they were intended, a gun that would do anything reasonabley well from ball to shot. I have three now, two 20s and a 28, and the Brown Bess musket. All handle shot well, and they did take sme work to get good loads. The Jackie Brown canoe gun has about a 20 inch barrel, 20 ga and handles 1 1/8 oz of shot very well, with a bit of smart recoil. Loaded as above it will put 5-6 pellets of # 6 shot in the head neck area at 35 yds. I have killed several turkeys with the 20 ga and used the Brown Bess with bismuth to take several ducks and geese, plus turkeys with lead. Don't sell a cylinder bore short, and why take the chance of losiing the ability to use round ball out to a reasonable range with a jug choke.

[smoked turkey]

+1 on using cyclinder bore for hunting. As stated above my .56 SB patterns much better than it should seems to me. I have experimented with plastic wads as well as no wad column. That is just using the over powder card/1/2" cushion wad set up. I have to say that I have been very impressed with the 30 yard patterns. I have shot several squirrels with it at up to 35 yards. It is a very fun gun to shoot. It shoots PRBs(patched round balls) very accurately to 50 yards also. I think a 20 gauge would be even better.

[405]

I don't know how to predict pattern density, the relative POA-POI of the shot pattern, much less the center of that shot cloud on a pattern sheet without actually testing an individual gun. The ONLY way to come up with that info is by experimentation, lots of range time and lots of shots on patterning paper.

For dense, even patterns: Overshot wads that are required for BP muzzleloader shotguns (and even the more modern roll crimped brass and paper hull shells) are by their nature problematic. Likewise, the nature of the cylinder bore is problematic.

For whatever reason the combination of the plastic shot cup with petals that "should" produce the best patterns in all applications just never has worked for me for muzzleloader shotgun loads. The effects of the overshot card is not to be overlooked either. It has a nasty habit of putting a big donut in the pattern. I've found that a slightly heavy load of shot over a relatively lighter load of FF powder usually produces better patterns. The old fiber cushion wad between powder and shot column seems to work better than the superior plastic cushion cup/wad when it comes to muzzleloader shotguns. I never figured out the reason for that but it seemed to be consistent, at least in my experience.

My better patterns in 20 ga muzzleloaders have about 60 gr FF, over powder fiber card wad, 1/2" cushion wad, 1oz shot surrounded by a brown paper sleeve topped by the thinnest, most frangible over-shot card available.

[northmn]

There is an individual on another site that has a jugged choked full turkey gun that has tested it with roundball and taken a couple of deer with it. Jug choking does not seem to affect RB accuracy all that much. That being said I use a 20 bore cylinder bore on grouse with good results and could possibly do better if I patterned it more. I really am not looking for a tight pattern. One uses what one has. The donut is usually caused by a heavy over powder column hitting the base of the shot column. Skeet chokes were invented to prevent that when the old shotshell components were used. However I knew one trap shooter that made a wad cutter and cut his over shot waads out of cork gasket material. A few are getting fair results just using a fiber wad over powder as it is light and does tend to disintegrate a little. A turkey load is a one shot deal so lube can be of the grease/wax type like Crisco or Bore butter, or none at all in a shotgun. Most use less powder volume than shot volume. Paper shot sleeves are also commonly used to prevent plastic fouling. With patience I am sure something can be worked out. Also 2f gives less pressure than 3f whcih may also help. At one time 1f was considered "shotgun" powder.

DP

[405]

The donut is usually caused by a heavy over powder column hitting the base of the shot column. Skeet chokes were invented to prevent that when the old shotshell components were used.
DP

Yes to that also. While an over-shot card will lag back through the shot cloud in flight... the whole over-powder wad column and maybe some of the lower shot column will run up through the shot cloud when in flight... both conditions being unfavorable to good, even, tight patterning. That's one reason for using the slower FF powder and a lighter charge of it. High speed film of this taking place while the shot cloud is in flight is very telling. :)

[northmn]

Another point on shotgun patterns. I know of one individual that gets turkeys with a 20 bore and swears by Nice Shot. It is a lead substitute that does not deform and weighs as much as lead. Hold your breath if you want to buy it as it costs $70 per 2.2 pounds. Nickel plated shot also works well and is less expensive, but I would still use it only for a turkey load. The real secret to a tight pattern is in the shot quality. Tom Roster found that out in his patterning experiments. I have used copper plated shot and nickel plated shot for wing shooting and they are effective. Also they do not draw in feathers like uncoated lead shot. for grouse shooting with my smooth bore I just use any old shot.

DP

[405]

Oh my! I hadn't thought of Tom Roster in quite a while. In a previous life I spent a lot of time with him. At the time he'd just completed work as a tech consultant, with Federal in their ballistics lab, on their then new buffered, copper plated hard shot, premium, shotshells.... BTW probably the MOST effective shotshell ever developed. Simultaneous to that he was helping them design and test the first really "good" steel shotshell loads. Again, yes, good patterns and shotshell/shotgun performance begins with shot that stays as perfectly spherical as possible during its rough ride- from ignition to out the muzzle.

[smoked turkey]

Not to furthur hi-jack this thread, but I have a question regarding the over shot card I use. I have always used a 1/16" over shot card that I get by halving a 1/8" over powder card. I do my best to exactly split in half the card, but in practice it is only close. I usually turn the "good side" down against the shot. I never gave much thought to the fact that this card actually contributes to the shot pattern. I get pretty good results with my .56 SB, and ok results with my Knight TK2000, but my 12 ga New Englander (cyclinder bore I think?) doesn't do good at all. Do you think I should try something different with my over shot card? BTW I usually only use a plastic wad with the TK2000 and prefer to use over powder card/ 1/2" cushion wad in the others. I use small charges of RS and small amounts of shot 1/2 to 3/4 oz shot.

[DIRT Farmer]

I have used an over powder wad over the shot to open up patterns when bird hunting. I generaly buy wads 1000 bag of over powder and over shot and 500 1/2 fiber. Most of my guns shoot more even patterns with 1/2 of a fiber wad. No lube is nessary for hunting, at least I don't get that many shots. I use the lubed wads while hunting to make sure I don't set the woods on fire when it is dry. You can buy cork and felt wads from suppliers and some guns do better with them. Turkey hunting and trap with cylinder bore guns are where the fun starts when building loads. Most modern guns are fairly simple in load devolepement, origonals can lead you toward saying curses and other unseamly things. Two of my origonals have barrels that for the best loads require different wad sizes in each barrel, but for most hunting and skeet work fine.
Trunk mats and the right size punch will make felt wads, playing cards make great over shot wads. Poster board works for over powder. Celotex works for fiber but requires a rotery cutter, I made mine frome a hole saw and use it in a drill press on a block of wood end grain.
As for using lighter than standard shot charges for the gauge, I load 7/8 oz in my 10 for skeet.

[northmn]

They used to preach about "square loads" or loads that are as high as the bore diameter, as being the best. Essentially they are loads about the same weight as a ball, as a square load in a 16 gauge is 1oz. Some really get fanatic about that even in this day of plastic wads and hard shot. My own experience and thoughts are that it holds for smaller gauges but starts to lose it for the larger bores. The idea is that the "setback" from ignition is not as bad on the bottom pellets with a shorter column. In practice the 12 bore is really good with a 1 1/4 oz load, and the 20 bore with 7/8 oz. Sometimes all you get with a heavy shot charge is a larger pattern. They used to claim the best way to make a 12 bore full choke shoot like an improved cylinder was to shoot a baby magnum in it. For turkeys I have seen some intriguing shot charges for a 20 bore, but often wonder if a more modest charge would not be as dense. I never really tried getting the tightest from a 20 bore cylinder bore, as a larger pattern for up close is not all bad. Then there is the old market hunter trick where they used to use sandpaper and rough up the end of the bore to retard the wads. It gave tighter patterns.

DP

[RBak]

They used to preach about "square loads" or loads that are as high as the bore diameter, as being the best.

I have heard / read of "squaring the load" in smooth bores, but I always thought it referred to the height of the shot column being equal to that of the powder column, before components....

Anyway, using the method equal powder / equal shot, I tried for years and could never get anywhere near what I could call "a good pattern".
Then I discovered that good, full pattern's, had much more to do with the height (weight) of the shot column in relation to the amount of powder than I had originally thought. (for years I had always increased powder when I increased weight, and decreased the charge with a lesser amount of shot....).

I actually found that reducing only the powder charges a few grains, while maintaining full weight shot charges, several of my smooth bores started giving better patterns, then it was a cat & mouse game on a pattern board to see just how much of what did best with what wad combination. This process sometimes went on for years as there are so many different variables!

I can say, with some certainty, that one can best appreciate the development of the modern shot-shell after he has played with a muzzleloading fowler for forty or fifty years.....

Russ...

[405]

I can say, with some certainty, that one can best appreciate the development of the modern shot-shell after he has played with a muzzleloading fowler for forty or fifty years.....

Russ...

:mrgreen: Oh, so much truth in that statement!

[KCSO]

This isn't traditional but a steel shot wad with the compression area trimmed off and loaded with 1 1/8 ox of LEAD shot will pattern pretty good from a 20 Ga double. I have used this for turkeys out to 30 yards. BUT for spring turkey where you call them in it doesn't make much difference. I have shot them as close as 5 yards and a long shot might be 20 yards, a 410 will do the job. Hold on the head and call them close.

[DIRT Farmer]

Some shooters take the more shot to the extreame. Several of the primative shooters over the years have came to the range and load with a one oz. dipper of powder and two dippers of shot for a trade gun which has a much heavier breach. Some where back in time this was tought as the way to get better patterns and some of the shooters do very well with that load. The recoil would be a little stiff in my guess. I start with a square load as the begining and as any load devolopment change one thing at a time.
The paper shot cup does work, and makes a good speed loader in the field. I rolled them from grocery bag paper and found they needed to be slightly smaller than bore size so they would break open when fired. When I made them snug in the bore, I had a rare one go through the patterning sheet intact, not the best way to make a ball load.
The Lee shot dippers work well for working up a load, most of the time say for a 12 ga set the dipper at one oz, try a load of equal parts then try with the dipper set on 7/8 for powder then one oz for shot. There should be some evening out of the pattern. The trying of a lot of loads is the only way to find what works best.