Water Quenching & Sizing

[bpratl]

I have been water quenching all my .452 bullets from CO WW because I thought harder were better. I just started to use a Star Lubersizer and found it extremely difficult to run than through the sizer and in fair that I would break the handle. I than decided to air cool the next batch and they all went through like butter so I guess quenching during casting is out for now. Has anyone else experience this?

[303Guy]

I'm not a water quencher nor a post casting sizer but I have played with water quenching and air cooling and different alloys a little. One alloy I 'created' was harder at first but by the next day was indistinguishable from the others. I think it was the same alloy that hardened rapidly within a few hours when air cooled. Not all that hard mind you but seemed plenty hard (or tough) for rifle boolits. Not sure that's of any value to you.

[dubber123]

If you size within the next day or so, you will see little difference in the effort required. This problem generally arises from casting and quenching a large batch, and not getting them all sized for a week or more. I found this out the hard way, when my mould for my new gun arrived weeks ahead of my sizer. I had a big pile of pre-cast, rock hard boolits made up. The first pull on my Lyman sizer snapped the handle right off. Later after getting a hardness tester, I figured out to get things lubed a little more promptly. Good luck.

[GRUMPA]

When I water quench mine within 1 hr after my casting session I size them. When I check the hardness with my LBT hardness tester I get around 16BHN (at time of cast)and mine cast out regardless of caliber .001 over my final size. If I wait say 24hrs the hardness increases 18-20 BHN, at 48hrs they stabilize at around 22-24 BHN but I add 1% tin in my WW. So if I wait to long to size mine, it gets harder in my machine to size those little goobers.

[crabo]

I only cast as many as I am willing to lube before I quit for the evening. If I don't get them all lubed, I remelt them. I feel like it is too hard on my equipment to size them later.

[btroj]

I water drops everything just because it keeps me from grabbing hot bullets to look at them. I use a Star and have found it hard to size down more than a couple of thousandths. I have a BR mould for 44 mag that casts around.436. I use a .432 Lee push thru first to do the bulk of the sizing and then use the Star to clean em up and lube them.
I really don't find the hardness a big problem. Are you running a few lubed bullets every so often to keep the die lubed? Some others have spoken of using a small amount of lanolin on a few bullets every so often for same reason.
In the end it comes down to personal preferences. I don't have a mindset that says cast and size in one day. Just doesn't work for me. I cast bunch and size as I need them or when I have time. Different strokes for different folks I suppose.

[fecmech]

If you size immediately after casting it's usually manageable. If you can't do that put the bullets in the freezer, that slows the hardening process dramatically. That will extend your sizing window by a couple days.

[Bret4207]

I have been water quenching all my .452 bullets from CO WW because I thought harder were better. I just started to use a Star Lubersizer and found it extremely difficult to run than through the sizer and in fair that I would break the handle. I than decided to air cool the next batch and they all went through like butter so I guess quenching during casting is out for now. Has anyone else experience this?

I think the answer you need to look for is what does your gun like better- harder or softer? If it shoots AC fine then you have your answer. If it simply demands harder quenched boolits the you need to look into your options.

[bobthenailer]

I size WD bullets right after the days casting session !

[MtGun44]

I have no need for boolits harder than AC WWTs, do not water drop. Full velocity magnum
handgun loads seem fine without fiddling with hard alloys, heat treating, etc so I don't waste
my time on it. YMMV.

Bill

[PacMan]

If your gun likes WD W/W which mine does i prefer to WD because it is faster than gently droping them to avoid damage.
Now to help answer your question.I have found that if WD W/W's when to size depends on several things.Here is one example.
My Noe .432-265 drops bullets at .4323.My cylinder throats are tight .432. If i size within 2 to 3 hrs in my .432 die i git what i see as a perefect fit , a little presure and they slip thru, if i wait until the next morning and size i can barely force them thru.
If i were to need,which i dont, a slightly larger dia. say .4322 i can wait about three days and it will be real close.
Keep in mind also the fact that all size dies are not created equal.
Now what this also tells me is that i am working right on the edge with my mold dia,die size and cylinder throat dia.
Boils down to you have to try it both ways and see what works for you and your gun.
Dwight

[cbrick]

Keep in mind also the fact that all size dies are not created equal. Dwight

Given todays mfg tolerances most dies will be pretty close to marked diameter with a given alloy.

It's the alloy that changes:
As cast diameter.
Amount of shrinkage after casting.
And
Final sized diameter.

Higher Sb (antimony) alloys shrink less upon cooling giving a slightly larger as cast diameter from the same mold as a softer, lower Sb alloy. The same higher Sb alloy will also give a slightly larger diameter when run through the same size die as a lower Sb alloy.

Don't blame the die or the die mfg for something neither caused. I imagine the die makers get daily phone calls from customers complaining, as an example, that their .452" die sizes at .4515" and not .452". Look at your alloy before you decide the die makers have sloppy tolerances.

Change your alloy even a little and you change not only the BHN but also these other three things as well. For those that hone out a size die for a specific result and then change alloys those sized bullets should be carefully checked with a micrometer, your final sized diameter may well have changed.


I have been water quenching all my .452 bullets from CO WW because I thought harder were better.

You didn't mention what your shooting but assuming 45 ACP or 45 Colt why water drop? Harder is rarely better in low pressure rounds and often not in higher pressure cartridges. Harder can cause more problems than it could possibly cure.

You'll do yourself a huge favor by not falling into the "hard cast" trap. The term hard cast is evil and does nothing but confuse new casters and purchaser's of commercial cast bullets.

If your shooting the 45 ACP or Colt ACWW is plenty hard if not too hard already. Shoot your firearm and see what results you get. That is the final judge of what's best for your application.

Bullet fit in the firearm it's to be fired in is far more important than "hard cast".

Rick

[PacMan]

cbrick i invite you to come on down and using the same alloy that i use mostly, straight wd w/w, and run back to back thur MY Saeco .359 die and MY Lee .358 die and the proof will be in the pudding.
Bullets come out of the Saeco .3592 and the Lee 3588 to 3589. "NOTE I SAID MY DIES"
I am not knocking Lee here , i have a .410 that is right on the money.

I agree that different alloys and hardness will affect sizing.
I am sure that the companys do get such calls and returns for the reasons you stated.
I quess the point is that there are many factors to consider and only by trial and error can some of theses diffrences come to light.
Please dont take this as an argunment only observations.
Dwight

[cbrick]

Dwight, not an argument, your correct there are variations in everything. My current lot of CWW is about 800 pounds, several smaller lots blended together for a large more uniform alloy. The vast majority of my Star dies will size this alloy .0004" to .0006" under marked die diameter. I do have a couple of dies such as my .310" die that sizes (the same alloy) @ .310" +- .0001". But the majority of them size the CWW under and it's not the dies, it's the alloy. If I change to SWW +2% Sn the sized diameter is larger across the board with most all of my more than 30 Star dies.

The point of my post was to help newer casters understand the effect alloy has final sized diameter etc. not to say that every die is exactly as marked. All in all though the die makers do a pretty good job.

Rick

[Bret4207]

Rick, a fair job, but QC is slipping these days. A .311 sizer of good make that throws .309? And all most of my other dies throw nearly spot on with my alloys...that's a QC or marking issue. I'm not arguing, just agreeing that we should check rather than assume.

[cbrick]

I'm not arguing, just agreeing that we should check rather than assume.

Absolutely, and I'm a strong proponent of using a micrometer NOT calipers. Calipers are not designed or ever meant to be accurate much closer than about .001". Many times that's not close enough if a correct bullet fit is the goal.

Rick

[Donor8x56r]

I'm storing my cast up to a year,all of them are water quenched,except for 38-55 fodder.

Why?Because I size them to "as cast" size or .001 up(basically just crimp on GC and lubing)

Also It's a lot easier for me to set myself up on a long weekend and do nothing but casting 3 days straight.

This way I get enough to keep me going for 4-6 months and I can spend all free time on the range or with GF or cooking something tasty :)

[Frozone]

I air drop almost every thing. Then size if need be. I harden in a furnace if I need a harder boolit.

[Whistler]

I almost always water quench, then wait two weeks before sizing.
During the hardening process each boolit will "grow" different amounts. It is not a bad thing in itself, but if sizing all of them directly after casting they will still grow individually and will after a few days of hardening no longer be equally sized. If you wait about two weeks the growing process is over and they can all be sized and stay sized.

Also, water quenched boolits that have hardened will not get deformed by the top punch.

[ihmsakiwi]

I have boolits that I WD and leave for months before I size. I am not sizing down too much and have never had issues. My mix is 10 / 10 / 4 (ww /pb/lt) and is used for 7mm XP, 357 Mag, 30 cal.
I have never had leading that I know of, so I must be just lucky or blissfully ignorant. Probably the later. Peter.

[1Shirt]

Water drop everything, size/check if necessary within 2 days. Usually cast in a.m. and size/lube in the afternoon and evening. Been doing it that way for years. lt works for me, so I elect not to fix it by change. Had enough change in the last two years to last for a lifetime anyway.
1Shirt!:coffeecom

[Frank]

GRUMPA:
When I water quench mine within 1 hr after my casting session I size them. When I check the hardness with my LBT hardness tester I get around 16BHN (at time of cast)and mine cast out regardless of caliber .001 over my final size. If I wait say 24hrs the hardness increases 18-20 BHN, at 48hrs they stabilize at around 22-24 BHN but I add 1% tin in my WW. So if I wait to long to size mine, it gets harder in my machine to size those little goobers.
Just like GRUMPA said. This is normal, so you have to size right away. Size with a Lee and dish soap. Rinse in bucket, dry over night, then you are ready to lube and load next day.