Knowing versus Understanding:

[W.R.Buchanan]

I was searching for an appropriate place to put this post so the most people would read it. I chose here as it is the most general category and gets the most traffic.



To start,,,Many people don't understand that you might not get the full meaning of a sentence the first time you read it. This goes double for articles about technical subjects.

When I see an article in one of my magazines that is about something I am interested in, I typically skim thru it to see what is there to be absorbed. If I see something particularly interesting I will re read the article in my easy chair. Then the magazine is relagated to the bathroom.

Just about everytime I go in there for a sit down the mag I'm currently reading comes out and I start reading the most interesting articles first. I sometimes read the most interesting articles over and over, as there may be technical details I need to understand fully. I sometimes just pick up the mag that has the most good stuff in it and reread my favorite articles out of shear boredom cuz no new magazines are available. I can usually completely read a Handloader mag cover to cover in about 6 trips to the bathroom. I also make it a habit to read the mag cover to cover regardless of whether I like a certain article or not. All of them have info that could be useful. You can't fill up your brain, although I have certainly met people who were seriously overloaded.

If it has articles on loading 40's .44's, 45's .45-70's, .30-06's or now .308's ,I will read them over and over to absorb such details as Powder charges and types, bullet types and weights that have worked well for some gun writer who has 30-50 years experience and does it every day. There are several I consider to be very credible as I have read so many of their articles that if they were going to contradict themselves they would have done it already.. This is one of the ways I figure out if someone really knows what he is talking about. If he is consistant over the years he probably has a good understanding of what he speaks.

I have one particular issue of Handloader which has a complete desertation on loading the .45-70 for Marlin Rifles by Brian Pearce. I have read that article at least 100 times and I can pretty much recite it verbatum from memory. I also have a really good understanding of the .45-70 cartridge, and can produce loads from plinkers to Dinosaur blasters. Mainly because of this one article. I have many others on the same subject, but this one covers it all in perfectly ordered detail, by someone who knows what he is talking about, and has the heads on the wall to prove it.

Currently as of Apr 15 2011, all of my magazine subscriptions have articles about the new Ruger Gunsite Carbine.

Since I bought one recently and have yet to receive it, all of this information, from many different sources, is currently very interesting to me, and helps my understanding of the gun and the problems and solutions associated with the gun. I will completely understand the gun and all it's intended functions long before I ever shoot it.

No matter how hard I try I can't absorb and retain everything in one of those articles with only one read thru. No offense, but neither can you! In fact it is a very rare person who can. Especially when the subject matter is very technical in nature and is laced with technical terms that not everybody readily understands.

My purpose in this post is to get people to realize that they need to read and reread posts and articles, or portions thereof, over and over until they do fully understand what the author was trying to convey. This will increase your competance with respect to the given subject.. This is a good thing! I think we can all agree on that.

If I ask you a question about something and you can't rattle off a coherant answer to that question, in plain english, without a bunch of humms and haws, then you don't understand it. Simple as that. (another way to tell if somone knows what he is taking about.)

A perfect example is my "getting" that the trigger guard on the M77GS being made out of plastic on the first read thru of somebodies post on this site. True but not entirely correct, as it is made from "Glass Filled Nylon". Certainly this is plastic but it is very good plastic and very close to steel in it 's strength. Not the same conatation as just saying "plastic" which is obviously cheap spuge that should never be near a gun. Point here is this person doesn't know what Glass Filled Nylon is, all he knows is it is plastic of some kind. His implied conatation was negative, however reality proves otherwise, and Glass Filled Nylon is excellent material for this application, just like similar polymers are for Glock Frames.

Thus the image I retained from this post was not entirely correct. In other words,,, I "knew" it was plastic, but now after reading several articles, I fully "understand" that it is Glass Filled Nylon which is really good plastic. I can now tell someone else about this subject with confidence that I am not spreading mis-information.

I'm sure anyone reading this post can insert their own experiences that relate to the topic of this post.

MY ***point*** is to emphisize that to further your understanding of this sport and for that matter anything you are learning about, you must read and re-read (study ) the information presented many times, in order to extract the true meaning out of the verbage, and to promote complete understanding of the subject at hand.

This goes double for things you read on a forum as it is only natural to take exception to something you disagree with and fly off, only to find out the next sentence clarifies the subject .

I see this all the time when somebody responds to a post with 3 questions, but only gets an answer to one.

Think about it. I think you'll all agree,,, Understanding enhances enjoyment!

At the end of the day, repitition is the key to understanding. I'm sure most here remember learning your multiplication tables 50 years ago. How'd that go for you? It was all about repitition back then, and it still should be that way today.

But alas,,, "change is enevitable".

Our younger members probably didn't have to learn their multiplication tables because they were issued Pocket Calculators at birth! How's that workin' for you?

Randy

[btroj]

Yes, understanding and knowledge are the keys to success! Too many take things at face value rather than validating what they hear they take it as fact. Learn more, try things, experiment.
Don't ever give up in the quest for knowledge!

Well stated Randy.

[geargnasher]

Anyone who scrounges lead, casts boolits, cooks lube, and builds ammunition should be an astute researcher, note-taker, and listener, as well as a question-asker. Unfortunately, it's difficult to help those who don't read with comprehension (that IS a learned skill, BTW), or who won't help themselves. Nobody's perfect, but studying is taught as punishment in public schools, so any research or real, focused study is an automatic turn-off to the younger folks out there.

Gear

[onondaga]

What you are going to learn to understand is that spending that much time on the throne will give you hemorrhoids.

Gary

[casterofboolits]

What you are going to learn to understand is that spending that much time on the throne will give you hemorrhoids.

Gary

To prevent "roids" and ulcers, you just have to ingest enough cayan pepper. I do a lot of reading in our "library" and after 69 years have developed niether!

[Rockydog]

W.R. Buchanan, Good observation and a good post. I found, over the years, that being a good writer helps one be a better reader and vice versa. I do a fair amount of writing in my job and have a staff of about 27 people that I communicate with via e-mail on a daily basis. I also write SOPs and policies for this staff. I've learned that I'm not doing my job if I get so much as one person who does not understand, or more likely, misinterprets what I wrote. Consequently I've become a pretty decent proof reader that has helped me concentrate on my reading in general. The thing I'm always amazed at is the way that some people look down their nose at those who read and accumulate knowledge from that reading. It seems that some folks feel that reading that it's a bad idea to stick your finger in the lead pot is of no value. You actually have to have stuck your finger in the lead pot for your opinion about burning your finger to have validity.

Brian Pearce is a good writer, as is Mike Venturino. I usually read their articles first even if there might be an article in the magazine about a caliber I shoot or for which I cast bullets. That says something about their abilities right there. RD

[W.R.Buchanan]

Gary: Hemrohhroids come and go. And unfortunately so does knowledge. The knowledge to fix Hemis is definately something to remember. And must be drilled constantly.

Rocky Dog: Your point about writing is very valid. You might have noticed that I am somewhat "Verbose" and it took me 2 full hours to write the above post with all the reading and re reading to get my point across in a coherant manner, remove the typos, and word in such a way as to not piss anybody off too much.

I have written technical manuals for production personnel in the past, and it is very time consuming to get it right. If you don't fully understand what you are talking about it is next to impossible.

I once wrote a step by step how to on seting up a Centerless grinder for a company I worked at. The only written instructions for the machine were covered in a 14 page 5x8" "phamphlet" put out by the Cinncinnati Machine Tool company. It had most of the basic functions of the machine defined but no actual practical application. You were expected to go thru and apprenticeship working on these machines and absorb their use thru Osmosus.

I researched heavily because the previous mentors had concocted a method largely fueled by Jack Daniels, that made no sense, and when I asked them about it they could not answer simple questions with plain english answers. Their answers all were filled words even they didn't understand, and hoped that I didn't understand either. Luckily My BS meter was active and I dismissed their input totally. I had to defend my position in front of the Company owners, one of which had helped write them.

After I convinced him I knew what I was talking about and that he didn't, we moved along to a mutual understanding that benefited us both. (I got a raise)( He got a workable and repeatable system to process parts)

The final validation was when we had reps from the company who had sold us the rebuilt machines come to the plant, and look over our system. I asked these men who had 35-50 years experience each if I was doing anything wrong . They said, and I Quote, "What are you asking us for? We have been doing this for 50 years and had never done any of the things you are doing here. We understand exactly what you are doing, We just never thought of it. Will you come to our shop and teach our people how to run these machines like you do. Could we have copies of your setup proceedure ?"

Luckily this was said right in front of my Boss who was still skeptical, but totally convinced after they left.

I was never questioned about technical matters again. This was 25 years ago before I went off on my own, and recently I toured the plant with a guy who used to work for me and is now head duck of R&D. Other than adding bells and alarms, most of the machines are being used as I had origially made them. Virtually all of the equipment and proceedures I put in place are still being used. I recently made parts for duplicates of machines I built 25 years ago, and made the parts to prints that had my name on them as the designer.

Next we had had a problem with people changing proceedures on their own. These people couldn't make something work like they were told so they made it work any way they could by changing the proceedure which always resulted in a shut down. Then who ever was supervising had to go out and reinstate the correct proceedure that the minions didn't understand, to get things up and running again.

Finally management got so sick of this that they instituted a "no change" edict for any established proceedure. Several people were fired, which fixed the problem permanently.. I took 2 weeks of break downs and many ruffled feathers to convinvce the owners that the problem was specific to people and not the proceedure.

These people had been there for 30 years, and they had been doing it wrong for 30 years. And the fight I had to overcome is that they had actually had success doing it their way for 30 years.

Problem was they couldn't teach anyone else how to do it, because they didn't understand what they were doing in the firstplace !!!! They knew how to do it, but they didn't understand how to do it. Big Difference !!!

It is hard to swallow that someone can do something successfully for years and not understand what they are doing. And that was what I had to sell the owners. They finally stood back in the corner and watched from across the room and saw the old guys sabotaging the equipment, which resulted in their dismissal.

The old guys of course blamed me, and got my middle finger for a response.

This happened a Gaiser Tool Company, the foremost manufacturer of Ceramic Ultra Sonic Bonding tools for the computer industry. (the tools that stick wires onto computer chips) The company is now owned by Coors who not only makes beer, but also is the leader in high performance ceramic products like crucibles for melting high temp materials, and now the worlds foremost producer of Ultra-Sonic Bonding Tools for the computer industry!

Something similar to what I have discussed above, just happened at Marlin.. They needed to change the way the guns were built to make them viable in the marketplace. The company met with nothing but resistance from the workforce.

Freedom Groups solution was to move the plant to another state and leave virtually everybody behind.

Here's something you can take to the bank. ":Change is enevitable!: :holysheep

Randy

[nanuk]

Huh? what do you mean?


Just kidding.. the same "Linear thinking" goes on in my industry.

we have some procedures thought out by someone who does not do our job, nor do they "Understand" how we do it.

so our procedures have been dumbed down so that they will work, but are not efficient but are repeatable.

it took me about 5 years to have a light come on in my head, and after that, some things just were so much easier to accomplish, especially when you "Massage" the procedures to make it more efficient.

But along with that "understanding" comes frustration about managment and their ideas that make poor sense. We joke that Lawyers make the policies.

it is a wonder more airplanes do not try to occupy the same airspace at the same time

[onondaga]

Looks like we have similarities in background. I was a technical writer, grant writer, consultant and educator, but in Dentistry. Orthodontics and Noble Metals casting.

"Hemrohhroids come and go. And unfortunately so does knowledge."

I look at that a little differently-- Knowledge is like poop, if you walk through enough of it, some of it sticks to your feet.

Welcome aboard. There is all kinds of members here with many skill levels and many literacy levels. It would be very easy to bash or mock for me too as I am also qualified to teach English. Don't do that, members here are so helpful and social and they all get across what they want to say. I corrected one member about using the word 'Casted" instead of "Cast" and have regretted hurting his feelings. I certainly knew what he was writing about.

Gary

[montana_charlie]

Our younger members probably didn't have to learn their multiplication tables because they were issued Pocket Calculators at birth! How's that workin' for you?
You still see people ask how many bullets can be made from a pound of lead.
CM

[runfiverun]

You still see people ask how many bullets can be made from a pound of lead.

my standard response is: up to one million, maybe more, if you return the bad ones back to the pot. :lol:
and i'm pretty sure i typed casted at least once, or more times, as i use it as a word and pretty much type as i speak. kinda.

[Lee]

Oh yeah..."Change is inevitable"

Not all change is good.

If it really works, don't break it.

Need change?? Go use a corncob for a week. Or two. Report back here with your results.

Got to know the difference. Period.

Seen it all. From "Quality Circles" in the 70's to "Blak Belt Kaisens in the 21st Century. Some work. SOME DON'T..........:bigsmyl2:

[Bret4207]

Some good thinking displayed here. The only caveat I would mention is that if you read and re-read an article or book numerous times and it's giving you the WRONG info to start...where's that get you?

[btroj]

That, to me Bret, is the key to knowledge. You need to develop an ability to say "That sounds too good to be true" and believe yourself. Read, and learn from what you read, buy always validate the info yourself.
Knowledge is where you find it. Sadly, misinformation lives at the same address. It is the learners obligation to tell them apart. Not all source of either are obvious.

In the end no form of learning will ever beat the school of hard knocks. Go out and do. You rather quickly learn when something doesn't work. Fire a load and if it leads, you will know.

Biggest problem we have today os that people want the quick fix. Tell me what will work so I don't have to try or learn. Call it lazy, uninformed, uneducated, or whatever you want, it comes down to a person with no real desire to learn. Spoon feeding you info will not increase your real knowledge base.

Thinking school of hard knocks- can anyone here think of a better teacher than the "Tinsel Fairy"?

[largom]

Some good thinking displayed here. The only caveat I would mention is that if you read and re-read an article or book numerous times and it's giving you the WRONG info to start...where's that get you?

Good point Bret! How many times have we read that you cannot shoot cast boolits over 1600 fps without leading. However, rereading is something that I practice constantly. If it is more info than I can trust to memory I will copy the article [printer/copy machine] and retain it in a 3 ring binder. I have binders for each caliber of gun I own and dividers in the binders for individual guns.

As stated in other posts many readers do not fully absorb or even understand what they have read. In many cases they read what they think the writer implied or meant. I also take notes when I read but I also understand that a writers statement is his/hers OPINION of what they have learned. If one person writes about something, it might be true. If 10 people write the same thing, it probably is true and I would consider trying it.

I consider reading and writing our most valuable tool and asset, however most do not fully utilize the gift. Reading is knowledge only if it is practiced over and over.

Larry

[Tracy]

Btroj has the right idea, I think. Personally, if I see 10 writers saying the same thing, I suspect the info. The only thing that tells me is that at least 9 of them are copying what they read, rather than putting it to the test.

[Armorer]

Very good, thought out posts gentlemen. I have to agree with Bret also. I have been an avid reader since I was a child, and absorb the information I read fairly well. That being said, there is no replacement for good old practical application. Until I can put my hands on something real and tangible, it is still just theory.
I am really enjoying this thread.

Armorer

[btroj]

Yes, multiple people saying the same thing does not make it true. How many times do we hear that microgroove barrels don't shoot well with cast and are really bad over 1600 fps. I would buy it if a person said they had first hand experience with this but most of them are just repeating the bad info in the Lyman manuals. I wonder if Lyman would have gotten better results had they sized the bullets properly?

I am a firm believer in learning at the range. I trust my own results way above those of others. My gun likes what it likes and doesn't care if yours doesn't like the same. My guns are very self centered this way.

[Bullshop]

I understand that I know very little about a lot. I also know that I understand a lot about very little. What I do know and understand is casting boolits and burning powder.
Its not a hobby its my life.
You thinkers would do well to do a bit less thinking and a bit more doing. Now get out there and burn some powder.

[Armorer]

Now get out there and burn some powder.

Now that is what I am talking about!!
:2gunsfiring_v1:
Armorer

[onondaga]

Revisiting Literacy

I do have some pet peeves. People that write or speak the word "irregardless" are not ungrammarlessly illiterate. They only lack a working understanding in the use of positive and negative prefixes and suffixes in the English language. :killingpc

Gary

[Doc Highwall]

I have been teaching one of my nephews shooting, reloading and casting and I told him I will be hard on him from the get go. For example I taught him how to bore sight a rifle by looking through the barrel and scope. I gave him my Browning 1885 Low-Wall in 223 Remington to sight in and all I did was to mount the scope on it. He got to fire it before I did and his first shot hit with in 1" x 3/4" of the dot that he was aiming at. Later his father had to do the same thing and I told him that he now had to explain how to do it to his father showing me that he understood what he was doing and he did. I also said to him that how well he learned and taught others what he learned was a reflection on his mentor being me and I did not want to come across as not knowing what I am doing. I think that even though we as individuals might know what we are doing, conveying it to others in words so they can understand is another art form and then watching them convey that knowledge to others so they understand is the best reward. Not just what to do but why you do it and the consequence's if you do not do it.

[btroj]

That is the way to teach Doc, thru doing.
I have many times on this site said that a new guy wanting to learn to cast is well served by having a knowledgable caster show them the ropes. First hand knowledge is the nest learning tool put there.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Well I hooked a boatload with this topic. :guntootsmiley:

I learned from experience pretty early that I didn't know everything. I know I was very lucky to find this out because I have met so many that didn't. I think the key point in any learning situation is to realize that you don't know anything. To think you do is counter-productive.

I went to Front Sight for my first Pistol class about 5 years ago. I went with the understanding that I was a pretty good pistol shooter overall and that I could think my way thru any situation and that they weren't really going to teach me much of anything. However I did have an "Open Mind".

It was a damn good thing I had an open mind too because I found out quickly that not only was I not very good, I was actually pretty bad. When you have high school aged girls next to you who don't know which end of the gun the bullet comes out, and they shoot twice as good as you do. It brings the message home with a bang. Ending up 39th out of 40 at the ned of the class was a real eye opener, and considering I was coaching #40, who was the only person I beat, well you get the idea?

After 4 trips and about 3000 rnds of ammo, I was able to finally graduate from the Defensive Handgun class, and move on to the Tactical Handgun class, which essentially prooved that you can't think your way thru a stressful situation period. It is all about muscle memory. I found that it is true that you instantly revert to about 50% of your highest level of training. If the best you do is 90% then you'll revert to 45% which is OK. If you are a 50% shooter, when it hits the fan:dung_hits_fan:,,, you suck! I have stories!

I won't bore you with how bad I shot in that class, but to say it will be many trips to graduate should suffice. :violin:


I just attended my first Practical Rifle class 2 weeks ago. Even though I am a pretty good rifleman, I went into the class with no expectations whatsoever.:mrgreen: The idea was to let them teach me how to shoot. I missed graduating by 1 point, but I shot the entire Skills Test Offhand. I couldn't get into any braced position fast enough to have time to aim. This hurt my scores on the 100 and 200 yard lines. Next time I will have gotten into some kind of shape necessary to get into the sitting and prone position rapidly, because I know what will be expected of me. Since I know what we will be doing in the class, I can concentrate on refining my skills as opposed to learning how to execute them in the first place.

Many times over the same subject equals clarity. [smilie=b:

I will also have all of my gear for the rifle class sorted out because I already know what we will be doing, so that is one less thing to learn which frees up attention to put on more important things like Aiming?

Like I said, I now know how to run my Mini 14, and when I go back the next time in a few months I will graduate the class. I will go back again and learn how to run my Bolt Action Gunsite Carbine also, and probably go back with a Levergun too. All are viable if needed.

Point of all these trips is the more times I go thru the same class the better I will understand the fundimental operation of the different weapons, and rifles in general, and I will also understand the class better too. The class is about "shooting a rifle," the class is not about shooting a "particular rifle", the fundimentals apply to all.

Don't get me wrong they teach people how to run just about any type of gun, but the class is not about shooting the AR15, the class is about Rifleshooting. Most people didn't get that, and they thought it was a class about shooting the AR 15, and some other guns too. There was 56 AR's 3 Mini 14's and one Garand in my class. They talked about Bolt Actions also even though nobody was shooting one. It all makes you better, and the fundimentals are common to all guns.

I hope you all got that I was trying to convey one simple point.

The more times you go over a given subject the better you will understand it. It is as simple as that.

As a side point; it helps to have someone whom you know, knows what they are doing, teaching you. Front Sight is certainly that. Best run school of any type I have ever gone to. Bar none.

I am a Diamond member and will certainly get my moneys worth out of them.

Randy

[Longwood]

I have taught a few women and girls to shoot over the years and am always impressed at how they end up out-shooting the guys immediately. I think it is the "I know everything" attitude that boys grow up with. Plus,,, the girls don't have the bad, bad, bad habits the boys picked up with BB guns and worse the toy guns that never ever miss. I would never let a son of mine have BB gun, a paint ball gun or one of those air-soft thingies.
I took a friends boy shooting a few weeks back and he wont listen to anything I try to tell him. I took the 45-70 away from him because he kept trying to look and see the bullet hit as soon as it went off.
If you can't listen, you are not only wasting my time but the ammo I took the time to load. I told him to bring firecrackers next time if he is only going to make noise with my guns.

[Longwood]

#1 Use a hot plate to pre-heat my molds.
#2 Use sawdust to flux with.
#3 Don't use so much tin.
#4 How to Paper Patch.
#5 How to make a PP mold.
#6 Take a nice long break from casting every time I add more lead to my pot. Didn't learn it here, just figured it out all by my pea-headed self.

OK,,, Refilled with liquid"SPEED" and the pot should be back up to temp. so it's back to making free boolits.

[felix]

If you can't listen, you are not only wasting my time but the ammo I took the time to load. I told him to bring firecrackers next time if he is only going to make noise with my guns. ... longwood

I hear ya', Longwood. I woman who I work with has a Viet vet husband. He was a truck driver over the trails which were constantly boobie trapped. One blew up his truck and his cargo. After being left for dead, he eventually recovered. He told me the story several times, each time was close enough to being the same. Therefore, the stories are not made up. After a couple more years of the same job there he was let go. I asked him would he like to shoot an AK. He said he would love to. I took him out to the proverbial river where we shoot and offered several magazines full after I shot once or twice to let him know the gun was a valid piece and not some joke. His fear of reprisal suddenly kicked in and those magazines were emptied as if the gun was full auto. He never came close to hitting a fifty yard floating beer can. Long story short, psychological aspects really come into play which are incognito to a bystander, and any wild shooter would benefit sooner or later by letting off steam whenever the opportunity arose. I have not seen him since, but his wife told me he got an AR and shoots it normally now, after several years of me letting him shoot the gun that actually shot him in combat. ... felix

[Donor8x56r]

I understand that I know very little about a lot. I also know that I understand a lot about very little.

Now,THIS I have to nail somewhere at work and at home for all to see and think about for a moment.

Very philosophical.

Thank you :)

For last 20 or so years I'm learning English language and the best advice I ever got

was to try to understand what is it that's being spoken or written instead of

attempting to memorize words and constantly translate in my head.

[Bret4207]

I know HOW to shoot, just as I know HOW to do a lot of things, like actually listening or reading about a new subject. It's getting from the "HOW" to the "DOING" that's the challenge. Add in poor eyes, can't hear, a body that wasn't cared for any too well with it's cricks and cracks and resistance to moving certain ways, a brain with the attention span of Daffy Duck....yeah, DOING can be a bear sometimes!

[sundog]

Here I am in my second career, as a programmer. I develop and field software that emulates manual procedures (fairly good sized financial institution), thus saving time and reducing error for the user, and thus keeping the database integrity. That's the quick explanation of what I do.

So what does that have to do with shooting? Or anything else? Everything.

A lot of the code that I write will have a set of "Monkey Notes" to go with it so the user knows how a procedure is to be performed -- "How To". It has nothing to do with whether the user understands what is going on, just how to get it done. In many cases they do not give a flip about what's going, just get my work done and go on break and complain about the stress level. Most of the people who have the 'better' jobs are the ones who understand procedure and logic. Those who show the desire to learn are groomed. The rest are just workers. All good people in their own right, but varying personalities and levels of 'grit'.

What makes one person the monkey notes performer and another the monkey notes developer? It's not intelligence, per se. It goes beyond that to traits like reasoning, ability to focus, communicate (read, write, listen, and convey), and having the ability to transfer skills. On a regular basis, we do something new to us that we've not done before. It's always the same people who step forward and "get'er done". It's because they UNDERSTAND how the system works.

Occasionally I will pick up a project to automate an existing procedure. During the interview with the user they can tell me the steps they take to do it (most of the time), but they do not have a clue what is going on other than when they get finished they "have the right answer" which usually means balancing to a number in some report. Other than that, it's just something the computer does. Don't get me wrong, I work with a lot of good people, each one different from the next.

I see the same thing with shooters. One shooter is the person who is handed a firearm, ammo, and told to shoot the target. They do, and they don't give a flip about how it all happens. Round on target, go to go. Some of them are pretty good shooters, smart people. They buy their guns and their ammo, go to the range and shoot. They go home, clean their gear, and put it away until next time. And then..., there's folks like us...

[Bret4207]

Lotta truth there Corky. I see the same thing when I tear into an engine or tractor or saw. Sometimes I wonder if anyone put any thought into the design or if they were just trying to make things difficult. Then I realize that no one designs anything to be worked on and serviced- they design them to work first and then to meet cost expectations. Sometimes I think they do that in the opposite order! Knowing why something is done as it is often makes the way they did things more understandable.

[selmerfan]

:bigsmyl2:
So, W.R., if you spent 2 hours reading and re-reading your first post to make it coherent and remove typos, can I go back and remove the spelling errors? :kidding:

Excellent post and topic. If you take a look at the current reading scores and abilities (supposedly "measured" by standardized testing) the reading comprehension of our kids is dropping like a .45-70 boolit at 600 yds. As a former educator and my wife as a current educator, we spend less time worrying about kids understanding and too much time worrying about the scores of tests. Our kids are drilled by Jen and I regularly about their reading and they are at the top of the heap in their school on the advanced reading scores. The older is in 2nd grade and the younger is in kindergarten. Both are 3 or 4 grade levels past where they "should" be, but that's because they're smart, love to read, and ask questions about what they're reading when they don't understand it. We work them through the process of figuring out what a given word or phrase means based on the context of the sentence and question instead of just feeding them the answer. It makes them think and gives them the ability to figure it out themselves. The 6 year old is already looking 4 moves ahead in games such as Connect Four and checkers. Teach your kids people, and demonstrate life-long learning skills for your kids so they know school isn't just something they have to get through, school is something they have to learn skills to continue learning through life.

[dverna]

It astounds me that people do not know what they do not know. Yet they give advice anyway. They make decisions based on what they think they know - or, even worse, wish to believe.

I have done this myself. Offered, in hindsight, poor advice or made poor decisions that afforded me a "learning experience".

There is a tremendous "need" to seem knowledgeable and experienced, or to confirm to one and all that what we believe is the only true answer.

Don

[W.R.Buchanan]

Don: Good to see a familiar face here from Trapshooters .com

Your first sentence describes our current government perfectly. Don't know that they don't know.

Your last sentence pretty much describes all forums. However there is a good side to this and that is the sharing of data and experience that helps others learn. Nobody knows it all, most don't know much, but what they do know is valuable, and if it enhances the sport it's a good thing.

Those who spread false data are usually rooted out quickly in arenas like this and TS.com, because there is so many knowledgable people out there that just won't sit still for bad information.

Look at the variety of topics that surface on TS.com. Everything from trapshooting, to loading, to what kind of SUV should I buy, to Politics, and the list goes on. You've seen I'm sure, that there is somebody that knows something about virtually every topic even if it is just their .02. This is valuable. I have never had to wait for more than 30 minutes to get an answer to a technical question I asked on that forum.

One thing that does go on is the repetition of information. This helps people understand subjects better. If someone reads how to fix a problem on a 366 loader, and trys it on his 366 loader and it works well, then maybe he will post the same solution when the subject comes up again and have to write down what he did. This proceedure promotes his understanding as well as the understanding of others, and ultimately furthers the sport.

That's what these forums are all about.

Nobody's learning anything new off the Huffington Post, it all BS and whereas it might get disemminated most people realize it is BS and don't come back. FOX Lies! Ya right.

Places like that are taylor made the those,,, who don't know, that they don't know!

NObody bothers to correct people who think shouting BS makes it true.

Randy

[dverna]

Randy,

I figured it might be you. How many WRB's can there be??? But I have learned not to assume - LOL.

The only "danger" with some of the more "polite" forums (which TS.com is not!) is there is a reluctance, at times, to call BS when needed. I see this a bit here. I one time toyed with the idea of becoming the "Tron" of this site as a good laugh is refreshing; but I fear the moderators would nip that in the bud.

What attracts me to this site is the wealth of knowledge and experience that we can draw from. There are guys here who I have a lot of respect for. They know what they know, and they also know what they do not know.

Don Verna

[selmerfan]

WRB - well said about forums. I've tried out several - trapshooters.com among them, but I'm not actively shooting trap right now, so I've bowed out. All others have paled in comparison to the shared knowledge and lack of B.S. here at castboolits. And when B.S. shows up it is quickly rooted out and not tolerated. Experimentation and acquisition of knowledge and experience is highly valued here, as well as time-proven tips and techniques. It's the reason that I've pretty much stopped participation in other forums - the B.S. factor is high in other places and not tolerated here. I feel like this forum is like a good seminar-style learning class in a graduate school setting where basics are paramount, there are no stupid questions, voices that contribute and ask questions are always welcome to speak up, and the students teach one another and share knowledge through experience.

[Longwood]

Lotta truth there Corky. I see the same thing when I tear into an engine or tractor or saw. Sometimes I wonder if anyone put any thought into the design or if they were just trying to make things difficult. Then I realize that no one designs anything to be worked on and serviced- they design them to work first and then to meet cost expectations. Sometimes I think they do that in the opposite order! Knowing why something is done as it is often makes the way they did things more understandable.
Now you are talking about the engineers at Ford. Why they go to so much trouble to make them a PITA to fix is beyond me.
I worked as an auto mechanic for the last fifteen years of my working life and finally told my boss "NO MORE FORDS!" He completely understood and sent them away for the last two years before we retired and closed the shop.

[olafhardt]

Why dont Brian P or Mike V ever mention Lee products?

[alamogunr]

Lotta truth there Corky. I see the same thing when I tear into an engine or tractor or saw. Sometimes I wonder if anyone put any thought into the design or if they were just trying to make things difficult. Then I realize that no one designs anything to be worked on and serviced- they design them to work first and then to meet cost expectations. Sometimes I think they do that in the opposite order! Knowing why something is done as it is often makes the way they did things more understandable.

Thirty or so years ago, I worked for a well known manufacturer of HVAC equipment. My job involved bridging the gap between design and manufacturing. The product at the time was a commercial heat pump. Things went well until the service people did their evaluation and asked one question: " How do we replace the compressor when this thing is installed on top of a ten story building?" We hadn't thought about it. Back to the drawing board(they still used them back then).

John
W.TN

[Tracy]

Now you are talking about the engineers at Ford. Why they go to so much trouble to make them a PITA to fix is beyond me.
I worked as an auto mechanic for the last fifteen years of my working life and finally told my boss "NO MORE FORDS!" He completely understood and sent them away for the last two years before we retired and closed the shop.

You got that right. Most of the worst vehicles I have ever worked on were Fords.
I think it is intentional, though. Same reason they occasionally switch to a different wheel bolt pattern, and that kind of thing: they don't want people to work on their own vehicles, and they don't want privately-owned shops to work on them. They want people to bring them to the dealership to get fixed, find out how much it's gonna cost, and just trade it in on a new one.
I know quite a few people who act as if Ford was founded by their great-grandpa, and won't even consider driving anything else. Most of those people trade them in on a new one before the warranty runs out, though.

[Bret4207]

WRB - well said about forums. I've tried out several - trapshooters.com among them, but I'm not actively shooting trap right now, so I've bowed out. All others have paled in comparison to the shared knowledge and lack of B.S. here at castboolits. And when B.S. shows up it is quickly rooted out and not tolerated. Experimentation and acquisition of knowledge and experience is highly valued here, as well as time-proven tips and techniques. It's the reason that I've pretty much stopped participation in other forums - the B.S. factor is high in other places and not tolerated here. I feel like this forum is like a good seminar-style learning class in a graduate school setting where basics are paramount, there are no stupid questions, voices that contribute and ask questions are always welcome to speak up, and the students teach one another and share knowledge through experience.

One of the things I find maddening is going to a forum where I'm not a "regular", using the search feature, not finding what I need and asking for help. I fall all over myself apologizing in advance for not being able to find it and still, 9 times out of 10, some real class act will make a comment about stupid people not using the search feature. I admit I can get a little short with people that ask the same question that's been asked 10K times before- "Can I shoot a GC design w/o the GC?" when there's stickies and a whole section devoted to the subject, but being a jerk doesn't help anything. On the whole this place is fairly free of that. We will point out ridiculous assertions or faulty theories, but usually it's in polite terms. Why? Because we've gone through the blood and guts threads and it's just not worth it.

[Bret4207]

You got that right. Most of the worst vehicles I have ever worked on were Fords.
I think it is intentional, though. Same reason they occasionally switch to a different wheel bolt pattern, and that kind of thing: they don't want people to work on their own vehicles, and they don't want privately-owned shops to work on them. They want people to bring them to the dealership to get fixed, find out how much it's gonna cost, and just trade it in on a new one.
I know quite a few people who act as if Ford was founded by their great-grandpa, and won't even consider driving anything else. Most of those people trade them in on a new one before the warranty runs out, though.

You think Ford is bad? Try working on some of the lawn and garden equipment out there. WOW! Some of it was obviously designed to be put together once and never, ever messed with again.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Don Verna: maybe we can get Tron to bring Kitty over here too, I know Feeps has an active interest in Cast Boolits already as he knocks the ones on my desk over all the time. I'm sure Kitty would love them too.

This is Feeps viewing a computer forum. He is very involved in the internet, and spends most of his free time there, or laying in dirt under a bush. Note: Cast Boolits under computer screen he hasn't knocked over yet. :Fire:

Randy

[Longwood]

Don Verna: maybe we can get Tron to bring Kitty over here too, I know Feeps has an active interest in Cast Boolits already as he knocks the ones on my desk over all the time. I'm sure Kitty would love them too.

This is Feeps viewing a computer forum. He is very involved in the internet, and spends most of his free time there, or laying in dirt under a bush. Note: Cast Boolits under computer screen he hasn't knocked over yet. :Fire:

Randy
I bought a new touch screen monitor and my cat loves it. He will sit on my desk and play with it and it is downright comical to watch. I have gotten to the point that I have special pages I leave on the screen for him to play with.
Now if I can teach him to program,,,,,

[Bret4207]

I've always said there's something weird about cat owners.......

[W.R.Buchanan]

Bret: I never claimed to be normal, but learning about cats makes it easier to understand how women think, if such a thing is possible at all.

If you met Feeps you'd like him. Everybody likes Feeps. He's a good solid cat, and he's been with us for 11 years. He should make 18-19 with no problem cuz the's just one of the really healthy ones.

He weighs 20 lbs!

Besides that, we're not weird,,, we're colorful.

Randy

[dverna]

Randy,

This forum could not handle Tron. These guys may not hang Tron if they know Kitty would starve.

Don

[Canuck Bob]

Many intellegent people don't learn well by reading or with theoretical models and intellectual constructs, which is what a manual is. I've worked in heavy equipment shops were genius mechanics had trouble communicating in written and verbal skills. They were still geniuses at understanding highly complicated trouble shooting of hydraulic backhoes and such. Machines with layers of systems that require shelves to hold the manuals. The best description I can come up with is they simply saw and understood the machine as a whole. Intuitve understanding with high tactile skill levels is how we might describe it intellectually but if I don't have it I'll never understand it from a book.

The reason I've bothered with this is we must be careful in over valuing certain skills and the people who possess them. It has been seen as the proper understanding of our corporate leaders to move North America toward a tertiary economy and move the "unskilled" jobs overseas. Now the world economy is suffering except the places with the jobs for people who are never going to be lawyers and engineers. My uncle couldn't describe a primer and how it worked, had no knowledge of twist rate to bullet weight, or what burning rate was. He was an excellent rifleman. I asked him how often he sighted in his Lee Enfield. He said, the amorer sighted it before I carried it into battle in Holland! He knew were the bullet was going and proved it often. Heavon forbid that someone was foolish enough to suggest a wager, then he got serious!

I am blessed with adequate skills with books and ideas and my life has been better for it. But as a society we do too much thinking and not enough building. My thesis is we have overvalued intellectual work too highly and under valued skilled labor to much to our mutual detriment.

It is also obvious I overvalue spell check to proper english skills.

[cajun shooter]

WRB AKA Randy, This is a very hit it on the head article. I am 64 years of age and during my school years we were taught the 3 R's so to speak. The problem is that we have these people that you described in all walks of life. Doctor's, Attorneys, Bankers are some of the ones who hurt us the most with what knowledge they possess. Every day of my high school and early college were filled with time at the library. I understood the information but realized that if I were to read it again the hidden information turned on the lights. When I attended the FBI Firearms Training School, this time spent reading is what helped me to finish in the upper part of the class. Unlike a lot of police schools this was a pass or fail that started with 53 and graduated only 22. Everyone thought that it was a top of the line shooting school and found out on day one that the shooting part was already expected of you. The course was designed to teach you how to teach others what you know or How To Be a Firearms Instructor. On our first day after the shooting test sent the first lot home we were instructed to write a lesson plan on how to tie your shoes. This was our FIRST BIG EYE OPENER in showing us how bad we were. The entire school was on the use of instructional material, overhead projectors, lesson plans, course objectives and so on. I am proud to say that I was able to teach some students that were failed by other instructors at LSU Law Enforcement Program and other schools that requested my help. The entire problem with our world today is the teaching has been given a course of test scores only which was stated in another post. The age old Doctor's instructions of "drinking 8 glasses of water a day" has recently been debunked as FALSE information. They said they were taught this in medical schools for over 50 years and no one questioned it. When one bright doctor asked the question Why, it was found to be false. We have as you say many bright people who have the knowledge but they have no clues on how to convey it to others. I thank you for the posting as I have enjoyed seeing it put into print. Later David

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK guys now it time for the big reveal,,,,

When you read a sentence or paragraph, and you get to the end and don't know what you just read. It's not because you're stupid, or you're tired, or because it's getting late.

It is because there is a word in that sentence or paragraph, that you don't understand fully or don't understand at all.

Yawning is the first indicator that this has occured. Do you ever yawn while reading, guess what?
Why do you think people read before they go to bed. Because it puts them to sleep?

How many times has this happened to you? you read something and get done and just go ***! you go blank.

Most people will go back and read again if they are interested enough, but many just continue on completely oblivious to what it is they have just read.

You effectively shut down when you go past a word you don't understand, so it is pointless to continue.

The problem with this is they leave not fully understanding what they have read, and sometimes actually think they did understand it. Then they go about telling everybody what they think they understood.***

This Mis-Understood Word phenomenon is literally the root of all evil. It has been the root cause for every conflict since the beginning of time and will be so until the end.

How many times in your life have you said something to someone, only to have it taken the wrong way, and then suffered the wrath of the other person?

Reading and then re-reading helps to get by this problem, but the real cure is to use something that most everyone avoids,,, A Dictionary!

When you use that tool you will find that many words have several completely different meanings. Some just have different inflections or "slants".

The reason the Second Ammendment is mis-interpreted by 4 of the 9 Supreme Court Justices is because of the incomplete understanding of TWO words. Regulated, and Militia. If you look them up and read the definitions and apply the correct ones, it is easy to see exactly what the framers intended.

However definitions of words "evolve" over time and as a result people think the new meanings are the ones that the original document intended. This is obvoiusly wrong as no one can predict the future with certainty.

This Mis-Understood word phenomenon and it's effects are not isolated to stupid people either, this becomes obvious when the President and 4 of the worlds most highly educated law scholars can not understand the intended meaning of a document that is the very basis of their lifes work. See asterisk above for reason.

They only can use what they think they read. And this is why they oppose us. Root of all conflict is the Mis-Understood Word!

Scary huh?

Randy

[atr]

rule #1........always consider the source of your information

[Bret4207]

I am blessed with adequate skills with books and ideas and my life has been better for it. But as a society we do too much thinking and not enough building. My thesis is we have overvalued intellectual work too highly and under valued skilled labor to much to our mutual detriment.

It is also obvious I overvalue spell check to proper english skills.

Man, ain't that the truth! :drinks:

[blackthorn]

When evaluating the interpertations of our "fearless leaders" we MUST also take into acount both political and personel adgendas! They cant ALL be that stupid!!

[W.R.Buchanan]

OK guys, as this discussion evolves, let us look at Theory versus Practical Application.

Learning in a ideal environment needs to have an equal amount of theory and practical application of that theory.

When you read a manual about an engine, you are trying to understand how it works. You can read and read and sooner or later you will start to feel like you are spinning. This is because you have not gotten any "mass" on the subject. NO hands on the actual machine.

This lack of mass willl have a tendency to drive you away from that which you are trying to learn.

However, If you were to read how to remove the valve cover of that engine and then actually remove the valve cover, you would fully understand how to do it, and would be ready to move on to adjusting the valves, instead of wanting to run away. Trying to teach someone about an engine if their is no engine to touch and fool with just ain't gonna work.

This is an example of studying theory and then backing it up with practical application. You feel good when this is in place.

All learning must contain equal amounts of both Theory, and Practical application to be successful.

One person above mentioned shipping all the manual labor away thinking everyone coming after would be a doctor or lawyer or indian chief. This is like shipping the practical side of our existance off and trying to make it on theory of that existance alone. This is foolish and it will not work for the above reason ,and this is just as set in stone as the corner stone of the Washington Monument. (which actually exists in the real world) An entire society which is built on this concept is doomed to fail.

This is the place that individuals that live in the theoretical world get all screwed up. Their lives revolve around a theory of something, lets say "society". As such their lives are all about the theory of how this society should work or how they have made it work in their minds. Their decisions are all made with respect to those untested ideas. These individuals concoct all kinds of unworkable scenerios for models of that civilization, but because they never have spent any time to actually put their theories to work they never find out if they are building on a solid foundation. If they had done this from the beginning they would have realized that some of their basic concepts didn't work and as a result their whole model is flawed from the beginning. No practical application to test the validity of their theory. Lets face it guys if every idea any of us ever had worked perfectly the first time we'd all be bazillion aires! Ain't like that is it?

One can make anything work in their own mind, making it work in the real world where it is subject to actual physical forces and laws is a completely different matter. Success in this realm is not a given like it is in your mind.

My father never understood this, he figured he was right and his ideas would work because they worked in his mind. He never planned for the eventuality of "what if they don't work?" (which they didn't) He died broke!

Hot tip: always have a Plan B. The more basic Plan B is the more likely it is to save your ****.

This is where knowing versus understanding, meets reality. This is where "he who knows, he knows not" becomes educated, and where "he who knows not, that he knows not, becomes a fool.

Don't be a fool, always learn with an equal balance of theory and practical application. I guarantee you'll be successful.

You might have to read this post several times to get all of my meaning out of it. Oh,,, we talked about that earlier?

Randy

[Cowboy T]

Hey guys,

Here's a story about just that subject--reading but not understanding what was actually said.

On another forum recently, there was a shooter who was thinking about getting into reloading. I'm a firm believer in going single-stage first and getting that experience, thus *understanding* what you're doing, before going progressive. However, there were, of course, some "Just Buy Dillon!" recommendations, i. e. as his first press.

I suggested to the OP that single-stage is the way to start, not progressive right off the bat, and to my knowledge, Dillon doesn't make a single-stage, so best to leave all the Dillons alone at first until he got some experience, for reasons of safety. Then, after that experience, he's got his choice of progressives--Lee, Hornady, Dillon, RCBS.

Well, a senior moderator on that board didn't like that. Apparently he took that to mean I was somehow insulting "his" equipment (he uses Dillon) and thus got his feathers all ruffled. Claimed I was "insulting the intelligence of new reloaders" and such. Then he went on in great detail how great his Dillon 550B was. Apparently he didn't bother to read *why* I suggested going single-stage, which is ironic, because he started with a Rockchucker!

People need to learn to read and take the time to understand.

[W.R.Buchanan]

Cowboy T: Yes I have made the same point on many occasions. An experienced loader that is recommending to a newbie starting with a Dillon 550 instead of a Rockchucker is just setting someone up for failure

You are exactly right and the reason why is the third peice of this learning puzzle

Learning on a Gradient.

Simply put, you have to learn to walk before you can run. If you don't understand the basic operations and reasons for them, then the next step will not be as easy to take and eventually you will fail. IE: You are building on a shakey foundation and sooner or later your house of cards will fall down.

When we are talking about such things as reloading, that failure could have serious consiquences indeed.

All disciplines no matter of what they are, are all composed of fundimental parts.. The mastery of those fundimental parts is the key to understanding and mastering the discipline.

There are 4 basic things you can do with a Bridgeport milling machine. You can drill a hole, you can bore a hole, you can end mill a piece and you can side mill a piece.

With just these four operations assembled in different orders, you can build a dizzing array of things. The versatility of the machine is almost unlimited. Sure there are a few other things you can do as well , but all come under the heading of one or another of the above 4 basic operations.

You first must learn how to do these 4 things in a variety of ways. Then you must learn how to assemble these operations in the correct sequence that yeilds your final product.

In other words you must learn how to walk, before you can learn how to run!

it is as simple as that!

I hope you guys got something useful out of this thread.

Randy