Satisfied with NEI ?

[Dominique]

Hello from France
Around one year ago, I was looking for a "real" wadcutter bullet for my S&W 629-1 not easy to find in France, nor the mould (most common are semi-wadcutter )
After some research, I found the factory moulds sold by NEI, a large choice of "real" wadcutter design : two 185gr, 188gr, 200gr, 245gr, 248gr ! all in .429.

in the same time, I saw her a group buy project for a 200gr Lee (closed yet) the design was very close to the NEI 200gr, this confirm in my mind it is a good choice.

However, looking on the NEI web site I read this advert :
" Revolvers: The chamber mouth of the cylinder dictates the size of the bullet, not the groove size of the barrel! The bullet must be sized for a tight push fit through the cylinder. Example: Some 44s have a groove size of .429 and the cylinder mouths are .432 or more. In this example, size the bullet to .432+ and don't worry when the big light hits the bullet, it will fit the barrel!! If the mouth of the cylinder is smaller than the groove size of the barrel, the pistol will never shoot worth a hoot. Send it back to the factory or have it reamed to .001" over groove size. Remember a hard linotype bullet will lead faster if it doesn't fit."

I asked advice to NEI: "The six "out" sizes of my S&W cylinder are .432 and a "cerosafe" moulding of the barrel give a .429+ / .430 (not easy to measure a assymetric number ( five) grooves bore...) I think it is good to resize for standard .429 size. Do you have advice to give to me ?"

Joel Fragoso (nei@neihandtools.com) just reply some words about each different weights and give me the price (I bought also a 429-240-BB).
So without answer for this point (only the price) I presumed there is no problem about this .432 cylinder / .429 barrel difference. And I give order for the two moulds.

Then as he sayed he can make top punchs for the Lyman sizer, using the same cherry he use to make mold, I asked informations about it but it was not possible to obtain reply about cost and condition... so I let it fall....

Since, I was retired and find a lot of works to do on our house and have no more time to cast bullet....
Finally this last week I found free time to do it and cast a first lot of 120 bullets
The mold give very nice bullet (see picture)

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/DFotobox/Starline-et-200wdc-NEI.jpg

But when I tried to resize and lube them in my Lyman 4500 it just keep grease in the groove
and have no resizing job; it was the same in my Lee liquid alox kit in .429 (just some light wear on two touch)
After a chek with a caliper it appear that the bulet are .4275 on an axis and .429 on the other.

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/DFotobox/0.4275.jpg http://pagesperso-orange.fr/DFotobox/0.429.jpg

That seems very few and of course when I drop it in the cylinder they trough directly on the floor.
Usualy molds give a basic size a litlle bit more than nominal to be resized and this one it is not like this
It's even worse because on one axis the dimension is even lower !
I am affraid that if I shoot them like this "out of the mold" I will have lead fouling in my barrel and a poor accuracy on the target...

I asked to Joel Fragoso What do you think about ? What is the best thing to do ?

Again he don't reply.

I tryed today to load a set of cartridges with some tests loads,
Of course, without sizing the bullets are all glued with grease and I have to be cleaned, they go directly in the sized cases with finger pressure without any difficulty near to the crimp groove....
I used the the "Lee factory crimp" to medium crimp and secure the bullet.
I know sometime it is not necesary to resize bullets but at this moment in my mind I am not realy confident ...

Do you have some comments and advices to give to me ?
In my opinion this NEI mould is under-sized and have to be remachined to a real .430 or more able to produce .430"+" bases that can be then sized to .430 or .429 with the appropriate sizing die. I not also realy agree the idea a .432 cylinder bullets size wich auto-size to .430/.429 in the bore and have to use .432 bullets... (?)

The firsts contacts I had with NEI was not realy cordial...(no hello, no salutations, thank you or so...) I asked him about my .432 cylinder / .429 barrel difference = no reply.
I know American people are more often "freeze" than European in relationship, but presently I asked him some help and I feel it is like I don't exist...he sold his goods and the rest do not interest him.
I read also somewhere NEI products are not the same they where in the past, is it true ?

Thank you for your advices and help.
Dominique

[45nut]

Walt Melander the founder of NEI passed away some years back, his daughter and her husband now run the company and have not made a positive impact, rather it has been hit and miss with miss more often than not.
A shame for such a great name in the mold makers history.
I cannot offer a fix for that mold, just the above observation.

[Dominique]

Thank you for quick answer !
Do you agree with me this mould is under sized ?

PS : your personal banner show NRA member indication.
Since some weeks we have a new similar in aim orgasisation in France http://www.tirmaillyforum.com/mildot/images/smiles/cheers.gif
UNPACT : Union Nationale des Proprietaires d'Armes de Chasse et de Tir.
We don't claim to have right to keep guns on our side in the street, just to stay in our property rights.

UNPACT >>> Législation armes (http://www.unpact.net)

[Cherokee]

Dominique - have you tried shooting any of those bullets? If the alloy is soft enough, they might work. I have NEI moulds that I am very happy with, but they came from Walt a long time ago; I would not buy from them today based on various reports I have read here. I have no solution for your problem, I wish I did, except to say a harder alloy will cast larger, but that defeats the purpose of the WC.

[Dominique]

Tomorow I will try to shoot 3 different sets of powders with progressive loads .
Sure that will leave the barrel, I hope to don't be with leaded grooves after some shoots.
I am also affraid that the lack of resizing leaves a lot of grease glue powder on the cases wall and botom of the bullet and give anarchic combustion or corrupt the powder
it is a pity that the quality is not as good as its appearance.

My SAECO hardness tester says : 6/7 = BHN 10

[Blammer]

try casting with the mould temp a bit hotter, you'll get better fill out and that may help with the small size of the mould.

You may want to read about the "lementing" on this forum and see if that may be an option to make the mould a bit bigger.

Wish I had some better suggestions.

Joel, most likely will not reply because he knows the mould is screwed up and he should fix it, but most likely he won't.

NEI, unfortunatley has gone to H E L L, I will NEVER recommend their moulds again. I'm sorry about your misfortune in this. Joel is a complete idiot and if you pester him enough he may fix the problem but most likely not.

I would recommend that you frequent this board and you will likely find the mould you will be looking for in good condition and a decent price too!

Please don't feel that most americans are that way, you just happened to run into one of the worst.

[runfiverun]

i have two nei molds.
they both cast very nicely, and one is one of my favorite boolits to shoot.
the other is a good mold also but not one i use often so i was going to sell it.
but since i had no way to certify that it is a walt mold i had no takers.
even at a less than reasonable price.
i would try the leementing posted in a sticky here, it will at the least get the cavities round.
you most likely need them to be larger but i would try shooting them first, a softer alloy and a faster powder might just do the trick for you.

[Dominique]

Thank you for your kind support !
I will stay in touch and tell you the results of my tests.

[Ben]

Your first mistake was even giving any thought to purchasing an NEI mold...... ! ! !

[Dominique]

"....You may want to read about the "lementing" on this forum and see if that may be an option to make the mould a bit bigger......"


Yes ! it was also an idea coming in my mind 8-)

I have a kit for repair the motor head <--> valve contact; a very effective conpound (coarse and fine) so able to grind hard metal such motor valve that you must be carefull to don't go too faar !

It seems there are also moovies on Youtube ;)

So, now it is 22:35 (european time) and I go to sleep.
See you tomorow.

[justingrosche]

I have been lucky with my NEI's, but mine are old Walt cut molds, I have had no dealings with the new owners.
I agree with Blammer, it appears to me that you mold is not up to proper temperature. Please note that he said mold temp, not alloy temp.

[TCFAN]

Dominique
I hope you don't think all American compaines are like NEI. Most are not that way.

I have 3 NEI molds that are very good molds, but they they were bought many years ago when they made good molds.

The mold you are having trouble with might work for you if you beagle it. There are stickys on it here at castboolits. Beagling a mold has worked for me on several occasions. It is easy to do and does not damaged the mold in any way.

Good luck with your mold I hope you can find a way to put it to good use...................Terry

[EDK]

Hopefully a change in alloys will work...or you may be able to lap the mould into proper dimensions.

IF you can't get it corrected, both NOE here in the states and MIHEC in Slovenia both have group buys going on full wadcutter 44 moulds. (I already have one of GLL's 200 grain LEE group buy moulds and Blammer's clone of LYMAN 429352, but MIHEC tempted me too much with his brass moulds. I really like 44 wadcutters.)

:redneck::Fire:

[GLL]

I am very sorry to hear about your problems with NEI ! It has become commonplace in recent years ! :( :(

I sure wish you had ask for advice before your purchase ! I would have advised against it

Tom at Accurate Molds has several .44 Wadcutters that are outstanding ! I own three in brass !

I hope you can make the NEIs work for you !

Jerry

[Three-Fifty-Seven]

You are gonna be happier with .432" boolits. Start to lap (or "leement") with the fine compound . . . measure often.

[Dominique]

Joel Fragoso finally reply to me (maybe he reads this forum ...)
" Try using a different allow from time the alloys shrink
If you place the cast bullet in the mould and there is a gap it will be you .002-3 smaller it happens all the time"

Of course I did not use the first bullets made, they returned to the melting pot so many times until the mold is heated enough.

Today I was on the shooting range with 3 different kind of powder, also a progressive range of loading
(for exemple Ba10 a fast burning powder 0,30, 0,31, 0,32, 0,33 gramme and a last one 0,30 crimped like a factory wadcutter very near the top of the bullet)
all on .44 special case (from Starline). They are all "regular" loading that must work well.

the sweetest loads sent the bullets low and by the side, only the strongest charges gave round holes.
All the primers had the same flatened aspect and the outside cases wall are clean (no burn back between the cylinder)
so I presume loads are correct and not the bullets who need a strong kick in the basement to go straight.

The second step I will try maybe will be "Beagling" using aluminium strap, very simple and quick method with an easy go-back possibility if not efficient. (3M products seems good ?)

If not, the last chance escape door will be to use "lementing" method.
Do you think, as 123DieselBenz says, I can directly try to obtain a .432 (= cylinder size) hole?
if "yes" which resizing die to use with my .429 / .430 barel ?

(I know it is better to avoid lead fouling to have over sized bullet than equal or worse undersized bullet)

[justingrosche]

After examining your Boolits closely, I still say your mold is not up to temperature.
What is your pot temperature and mold temps? What is your alloy? I dont see any mention of this.
I'd say before you chase a problem that might not be there, go back to basics and make sure your casting techniques are correct.
Best of luck to you.
Justin

[runfiverun]

the 3m flue tape is the one you want for beagling it is a high temp type.
the higher charges were bumping up the boolit to take the rifling better.
this is a good learning experience, not just for you, keep on posting what you are seeing.

[Wayne Smith]

And next time buy from Mihec, Miha is in Slovenia and should have no problem getting anything to you. He knows his business and is very good at what he does.

[justingrosche]

I can't say that there is not something wrong with the mold, but If you look at profile and compare it to Dominique's castings, you can tell, his mold is too cold. He is not getting complete fill out.

[GLL]

Dominique:

Your photo of the bullets is outstanding ! Can you provide a similar close-up of the mould cavities so we can determine if it is a fill-out problem or a machining flaw in the mould itself or a combination of the two?

[casterofboolits]

I can't say that there is not something wrong with the mold, but If you look at profile and compare it to Dominique's castings, you can tell, his mold is too cold. He is not getting complete fill out.

+1 for incomplete mould fill out. Also, NEI is not on my list of mould providers. Bought a six cavity #68 clone in the mid 80's and it made 7,000 boolits and after that would not drop a good boolit no matter what I did. After three days of trying, it hit the trash can first throw.

That's when I bought my first H&G eight cavity mould. Happy days ever since! :Fire::Fire:

[Dominique]

I can't say that there is not something wrong with the mold, but If you look at profile and compare it to Dominique's castings, you can tell, his mold is too cold. He is not getting complete fill out.

There is often a difference between the perfect shape of a drawing and the look of a product, the light and bright can "flash" (dazzle ?) your eyes and get impossible to see the exact profile, maybe a counter light (shadow) give a better view.
All I can say is that the alloy is a kind of what you tell "1:20" with correct BHN 10 and weight is 212gr.
I will buy a thermometer for the next lot and see it closely

[nanuk]

there are NEI moulds being offered on Ebay, "Refurbished" I think is the term...

and from what I can tell, they are the PostWalt type moulds

Yes, a pic of the mould would be good

[HARRYMPOPE]

Your first mistake was even giving any thought to purchasing an NEI mold...... ! ! !


perfect answer.

i have many Walt made and they are good molds,but the current ones are "mold kits" requiring tuning at the least and often re-building before use.


HMP

[justingrosche]

Ok, we all get it, NEI sucks. So fan the flames of NEI and watch it burn.Heck, I'll hold your beer for you while you light your torches and gather your pitch forks.
Based on what I hear from guys whose opinion I hold in high regard, I wouldn't buy a mold from them.
But I have to ask you gentlemen, If Dominique was casting from an NOE or a Mihec mold and was having these problems, what would be your response then?

[VenomBallistics]

At the brass tacks of any mold .. we have a cavity centered between two blocks, alignment pins and assorted hardware. nothing more, nothing less. Theres no real magic here.
it would seem that the OP should adjust his technique first ... if that fails .. try your hand at lapping the mold till it works as advertised.
even if the mold sucks, most of the hard work is already done

[seagiant]

Hi,
Well... I guess being out to sea a lot. I don't keep up with the latest gossip but right after Walt died I found a 9mm NEI mold in my local gunshops mold box with a bunch of junk LEE 2 cavity molds. I think I paid $15 for the NEI mold and not needing a 9 mm sent it to NEI to be rebored for a 350 gr. bullet for my Lone Eagle pistol in 444 Marlin! At that time the guy working there was supposedly Walts helper when he died. Was this his son in law? I don't know but the mold was recut and perfect in every way that I could tell and our 100 yard gong at my gun range takes a spanking whenever I show up with the Lone Eagle!

[justingrosche]

Dominque, If you find after you retry casting with this mold that it is still undersized, try sending it to http://www.hollowpointmold.com/, rather than sending it back to NEI.

[Dominique]

Dominque, If you find after you retry casting with this mold that it is still undersized, try sending it to http://www.hollowpointmold.com/, rather than sending it back to NEI.

OK; thank you for this good advice.
Since, I have not tried again to cast.
This first casting session was "hand made" with a Lee spoon very cheap iron sheet made and I presume not able to keep hot temperature as a RCBS cast iron spoon.

My next test will be with a Lee electric furnace and of course a temperature control I will buy soon.
But nevertheless I still belive the bullets are correctly cast, (see the close up on this single one)

http://pagesperso-orange.fr/DFotobox/200Gr_WDC_NEI.jpg

I checked all one by one and discarded the less perfect.
My second test shooting test was with this selected bullets, just Lee Alox treated and with Vithavuory N350 powder, using a moderate crimp,
they go straight in a 10 cm circle (25 meters, one hand shooting) speed seems constant but not very fast.
When reloading will be fine tuned I will use a chronograph to test speed gap.
This load product also some unburned falling on the table (around quantity of an half cartridge loading for a total of fifty shoots) I will try an other powder.

[VenomBallistics]

Gradiant heat ... top looks good ... bottom looks cold.
see if you cant crank em out faster to keep some more heat in the mold blocks

[Dominique]

Gradiant heat ... top looks good ... bottom looks cold.

I think drawing is not realy symetric : red arrow designated groove looks to be the crimp groove and rounded bottom seems to be designed for to go easy in the case.
Top is perfectly flat and clean, the sprue "cut" is on the bottom face.
All the bullets from both cavity are like this and weight is 212 gr ( seems there is no missing lead)

[justingrosche]

Unless NEI sent you a mold from the scrap bin, I dont think that Boolit is an accurate representation. I still see mold fill out problems. No two lines are symmetrical,neither are the radius's. With a DEWC the top half will match the bottom half, and yours obviously doesn't.

But, if your shooting twenty five meters into a 10 centimeter group single offhand, whats the problem? I wouldn't care if my Boolits looked like Gummy Bears if I was getting that type of accuracy.
I'll go back to what I said before, before you chase a problem that might not be there, go back to basics and make sure your casting techniques are correct.

[Blammer]

I would try to pour faster and hotter, perhaps that will help. The Lee bottom pour will be your friend with this.

[mebe007]

hmm off topic but i was looking at an nei mold guessing i should stay away

[Dominique]

Sorry for not having advanced the subject further since, I am waiting to receive a thermometer and make a new batch tests with the Lee furnace at the perfect casting temperature
Before pouring I'll clean the mold and then I could take close pictures.

[mebe007]

Sorry for not having advanced the subject further since, I am waiting to receive a thermometer and make a new batch tests with the Lee furnace at the perfect casting temperature
Before pouring I'll clean the mold and then I could take close pictures.

dont forget to really preheat that mold

[bowfin]

I agree with justingrosche and Blammer

You might get a better result with your mold with more heat. The corners and edges don't appear to be as sharp as they might, and that would make the bullets undersize.

Please try to cast some more with a hotter mold and I believe your bullets will increase in diameter.