.45 Caliber, 340 Grain Cast Bullet, 1,100 fps VS. Large, Mean Animals??

[Southern Shooter]

31570

Would this cast bullet design moving at 1,100 FPS be considered adequate DEFENSE (within 25 yards) against large, angry animals like grizzlies in the lower-48 states? This would be fired from a .454 Casull handgun.

I know this is not a cannon. I am just trying to find something that will pack a punch but, that I can also control.

Thanks

[Rafe Covington]

JMHO but I would think that would work alright, use a 340 gr bullet in my 45 Colt rifle.

Rafe:redneck:

[frontloader]

Im interested in hereing some replies. . I just bought an Accurate mold that looks just like that. got some cast up and have only shot a few so far. and I was thinking about 1100 fps neighborhood myself for hog hunting...btw..Im shooting it out of an old Vaquero 45 colt..frontloader

[stubshaft]

Great looking boolit, but in my FA83 I would load it ahead of 31.5+ of 296/110 for 1550+.

[Mk42gunner]

31570

Would this cast bullet design moving at 1,100 FPS be considered adequate DEFENSE (within 25 yards) against large, angry animals like grizzlies in the lower-48 states? This would be fired from a .454 Casull handgun.

I know this is not a cannon. I am just trying to find something that will pack a punch but, that I can also control.Thanks

Mever having shot an attacking grizzly bear, I don't know for sure (and I hope you never find out either). The design looks good to me.

In my mind you are smart for wanting something you can control.

Robert

[Lloyd Smale]

I dont put much count in stopping big animals with any handgun but that load would probably do as good as anything.

[redneckdan]

If I were going out with the intention of shooting at a pissed of grizzly I probably would look for something with wheels on it. Being realistic, a lot of my friends that live in parts north west of here seem pretty comfortable with a 300-320gr keith at about 1100 out of a 329PD I would say your choice seems reasonable enough.

[Bula]

That isn't exactly a slouch load, but since you're already carrying the .454, I'd feel better about getting that into the higher end of the velocity spectrum, 1400-1500'ish. Pucker factor will be the deciding factor, not the ease of the load IMO.

[justashooter]

begging your pardon, but i sure hope you have a big insurance policy and that you will forward my e-mail addy to your attractive and soon to be rich wife.

the bullet you refer to is good for 4 feet of penetration at 1100 fps, assuming mo heavy bones hit, and will leave a goodly sized hole, but it will not stop a griz in his tracks unless you hit central nervous system (brain/spine), so you better be a good shot or you will die in such confrontation.

to stop a griz in his tracks you need 2-4 12 gauge slugs into the boiler room at magnum velocities, or a 400-500 grain bullet or so at 45 caliber or better and 2200 fps or better. you cannot do this with a handgun.

the advantage of the slugs is the increased projectile diameter and energy (each twice what your load makes). the advantage of the HV load and heavier bullet is temporary wound cavity related to hydrostatic shock available only above 2000 fps and better straight line penetration from the better sectional density.

this comment based on years of reading re dangerous game, as we, unfortunately, have no such in pennsylvania outside of a zoo, and they take a rather dim view of shooting caged animals around here.

so your best bet for griz up close and cheap? an 18" double barreled boxlock twin triggered shotgun with magnum slugs. cut the stock back to 10" pull and you can get it down to about 30" and 6 pounds. second best and twice the cost? a marlin guide gun with shortened stock and max 405 grain flat nosed loads.

[aaalaska]

Yea same old story,you need a rifle ,shotgun etc, file the sight off and so on.Here is a little reality, every hunter here carries a rifle, a big one, so our hunters should be safe ,or as safe as possible right. Yet just about every year someone who should have been armed gets worked over, why, cause they put the rifle down while they dressed out their kill, and yea I know you would never do that, so you say but try dressing out a moose and see where your rifle is in about 5 min or less. As for fishing ,I've been up and down many rivers here, if your packing a rifle or shotgun, it won't take long till it finds a place, usually on the bank 10 yards away, or maybe on a sling ,but you soon find that it slips off your shoulder so over the head goes the sling, now try that one, dress up in chest waders, add a little gear, sling a gun over your head and shoulder so it rides in the middle of your back like most I see on the rivers.Now pick up a fishing rod, and maybe a net, Salmon size, now you have 8 seconds to get your weapon into action. But there is this, if you lay face down, at least the gun is in the way while he tries to take you apart.
Yes your right no gun is enough in that situation, but I'll be one of those guys with a large handgun in the middle of my chest, where there is nothing in the way , I'll be praying I never have to use it but ,I'd sure rather have that than the rifle /shotgun on the beach,or leaning up against the tree.And yes that should be a great bullet if it's hard enough to stay together. Sorry for the rant.
Alex

[white eagle]

sure !

[RobS]

Southern Shooter................Nice looking boolit................... the 45-340B minus the GC?????............LOL. I'll testify to the accuracy and the balance of the design as the PB version I designed over at Accurate Molds is the most accurate heavy I've shot in the Ruger SRH and Puma Lever Action.

[runfiverun]

good post alex....
but you think that load and boolit is enough?
i'd try for 1200 fps.

i have been working on a 315 in my 445 with a harder alloy and a brass cased base with two canellures to help control expansion, with most of a case full of aa-1680.

[RobS]

i'd try for 1200 fps.


+1............not that 1100 won't penetrate from here to tomorrow, but 1200 fps will create a larger wound channel due to the greater shook wave the meplat and added velocity brings to the equation.

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Yes your right no gun is enough in that situation, but I'll be one of those guys with a large handgun in the middle of my chest, where there is nothing in the way , I'll be praying I never have to use it but ,I'd sure rather have that than the rifle /shotgun on the beach,or leaning up against the tree.And yes that should be a great bullet if it's hard enough to stay together. Sorry for the rant.
Alex

I'd be inclined to pay close attention to the man that "walks the walk" every time he goes out with his fishing gear. Experience is an excellent teacher.

Mike

[bearcove]

44 mountain revolver with 310 gr ssk, Carried it for years and still do. Does about 1100fps, not ideal but at hand if needed.

Hellof a lot easier to carry than my Marlin 1895.

[missionary5155]

Greetings
Considering the 45-60 was considered a good griz rifle up close & you are near duplicating that cartrige it would be OK. I have a 454 and would put in the time to get that load shooting accurately out of my hands at 1250 fps. That would equal the 45-70 which was counted on to thump griz for many years.
In all honesty I cannot think of trying to stop an unhappy griz with any thing less than an elephant gun. If he is coming in he wants your meat & I hope you hear or see him first and are light footed enough to set a new worlds record in the 100 meter or have a good stout climbing tree closeby.

[Lloyd Smale]

remember were talking a wounded griz comming for you here not what will work hidden behind a tree at 50 yards. Ive shot 1000lb bison with 500 linebaughs that have continued grazing after being hit and after about 30 seconds keel over and die. Now a griz with 30 seconds can do alot. Dont count on stopping anything with a handgun unless you hit the brain or spine and thats some fancy shooting for someone crapping his drawers. Sorry but in that case theres no such thing as to much power and something like a 338 376 458 or even a 4570 is capable of more then any handgun.
You can do with the 454 Casull six-gun what the 12 pound, four foot long 1876 Winchester 45-75 did. Plus with all the noise and muzzle blast the bear will probably run off anyway.

[bearcove]

You can choose to go out and do something, I like to fish, Or you can stay at home. I haven't found a 375 or 458 that was very handy while flyfishing in waders. Besides after 30 years out in the boonies I have not needed to shoot anything in self defense.

You are probably 100 times more likely to drown or die in, or as the result of injuries from, a fall.

Its so dangerous out there yall should just stay home. Less crowded when I'm out there fishing with my inadequate pistol.

[bearcove]

I guess I should clarify the problem.

You have to pick something that fits the activity that you are doing. I fish. A shoulder or chest holster is good for this. A rifle tends to get set down on the bank because its cumbersome. It also fouls the line at times or flops over onto your casting arm. Alot of people that hike in BEAR country carry a rifle or shotgun. I still carry a pistol most of the time. If I am getting off my boat and bears are about then I grab my 1895.

BEAR country is a vague concept, are you on Kotznehue (fortress of the bear, more than 1 costal brown bear per square mile) or western montana (less dense). Are you packing food? Game? CHEESE?

I've had more problems with moose. Meet them on the trail and you get out of the way. They kick like a mule, a BIG mule.

The best bear gun is a 1895 loaded heavy. If you look at it with my budget. The wife or kids can pick it up and blast away. Thats because they hunt deer and elk with the 336 in 35 rem. After its all done they may wonder why they are sitting on their ass, but O'well. I've had a Mod 70 375 H&H and it gets set down as soon as your feet stop moving. To HEAVY!

It all depends on what you are doing! Are you setting up camp on Kodiak Island to build a house, or going for a 4 hr hike in Yellowstone.

[bearcove]

If a big bear does decide he is going to take you apart, he will smack you, stomp, and bite you. Then he will disembowel you and eat you while you watch,or he will try and crack your skull in his jaws. A plain ol 44 mag would be nice to stick in his face about then. That rifle will be long gone. Thats what happen if you read the accounts. Unless you are going to kill any bear that gets close. Explain that to F&G, they work out there.

The best thing you can do in a bear attack is leave that pistol in the holster and wait and see if it is a bluff charge or deep ****. 90% of the time its a bluff charge. Stand your ground! If you pull it before you really need it it won't be there anymore, but 20 feet away where you were when that bear started smacking you. You can change your shorts after its over. I work for a living and have Popeye arms, but no way I could hold it, or you will have it in you hand after the fact.

Like I said before stay home and it won't be as crowded out there.

I like my space, and NO its not online!

Rod, in Bearcove Alaska

[Tracy]

I've never been attacked by a bear, but what Bearcove says has the ring of truth. I have read a lot of accounts of bear attacks, and I remember reading about a ranger who was attacked by a large grizzly and managed to stop the attack by emptying his .357 Magnum revolver into the bear while it was on top of him.
Personally, I would rather have both a rifle in my hands and a .44 Mag or hot-loaded .45 Colt in a holster, just in case I ended up 20' from my rifle and under the bear.

[bearcove]

Bears are curious, everything is food until they decide its not. Probably depends on how hungry they are. Costal brownies act like you don't exist when salmon are running. In the spring they are hungry eating grass and berries. A 2-3 year old bear is growng and hungry, sorta like my boys, Some days they will eat anything they can catch. Bears and boys!

[44 flattop]

I've been attacked, or at least nearly so, by just one bear, a black bear.

It had followed me for about a 1/2 mile so when he made his move directly toward me from about 40 yards, I was aware of him. Luckily when I hike, no matter what time of year I have a gun. That particular time I was packing a .44 rifle along with my .44 pistol. 240grs @ 1700fps dissuaded him quickly as I took him in the center of the chest as he moved toward me with head down and ears back. Post mortem I found a very very healthy male black bear weighing upwards of 400+lbs with no reasons I could find to have acted the way he did. While I was ecstatic to have had the rifle with me I gotta tell you, even at an estimated 20 yards and coming fast, it felt like a BB gun. I couldn't imagine if he would have been a grizzly.

My Brother worked for years cutting timber on Afognak Island amongst the brownies there and got very close when fishing in a company canoe. Around 50 yards or so. He was of the opinion after that that should a feller be in the sights of something that big he wanted a gun big enough that it was mounted on wheels and needed to be towed behind his truck.....

After saying all that, my prefered gun for 90% of my time when out and about in bear country is a .44 with a 255gr cast at around 1250fps. :oops:

[white eagle]

IF you got the nards to face down a peed off
grizzly bear that has you pegged as its main aggravation
with a pistol have at it
IF I were worried about that situation I would find a way to saddle up
some more horse power
just sayin

[GabbyM]

I have full confidence in my 44 magnum revolver.
255 grain Keith over a full charge of WW296 is all I need.
44 mag with hard cast non brittle bullet will penetrate about four feet. That my friends is a long way. I’d hate to decide between my double action 44 and a single action 454 Casull. I own a 44 so I’ll just keep that and call it good.
For a general purpose hand gun to meet any threat I’d never give up my DA swing cylinder with speed loaders.

For a long gun I’d take my shotgun. 12 gage pump with 20 inch barrel loaded with .690” round balls. For SD anyway.

[bearcove]

I prefer DA because it can be shot with one hand. Without removing your thumb to cock. My grip on a single action with my thumb pulled is not as strong as a firm grip on my S&W with pachmyer gripper.

[.452dia]

If all you have is a handgun (of any type or caliber) to defend against a pissed off Griz or Brownie then do yourself a big favor and save that last shot. You may want to check out early when that critter starts having it's way with you.

[HollowPoint]

Back when one of the many Small arms manufactures came out with that new 460 magnum revolver, (I think it was Smith and Wesson.) I thought about buying one so I drove to my local gun store to check it out.

They were initially a hot seller so they were out of stock at the time.

The guy behind the counter tried to sell me one of the snub-nose versions of this same revolver claiming it would be good for dangerous game like grizzly bear and such. He must have read it in a magazine somewhere. He spoke those words like he'd read it in the Bible; and it was printed in red letters.

If you know anything about what takes place in the realm of human physiology when faced with a life or death situation, one of the first things that affects your ability to deal with it using a hand gun (especially one of this configuration) is the fact that the "fight-or-flight" response makes your body tend to loose a good percentage of its fine motor skills.

This gun-counter know-it-all was adamant about that being the original design of this particular big-bore magnum snub nose revolver. Maybe it was, maybe it wasn't; I really don't know.

When I mentioned to him that it looked more like it was designed so a person could more easily put the muzzle to their own head rather than having to endure the slow death that grizzly bear meant to inflict, he gave me a look that no words in the human language could describe.

Sorry about taking this thread slightly off course with my two cents worth. The comments mentioned above just sort of brought that memory back.

I ended up not buying the gun. We don't have grizzly bears here an Arizona anyway.

HollowPoint

[Whit Spurzon]

Having lived and worked in Alaska where near contact with Coastal Brown Bears was a daily phenomenon, I can say it don't matter what it is your holding it don't seem like enough. They are amazing creatures and simply being around them made me realize just where I ranked in the food chain.

That being said when I was packing it was a 44 mag and I know two guys that have harvested Griz/Brown Bears with that caliber and another that killed one with an ax... A good friend of mine's father in law only owns a 30-30 and kills all his terrestrial meat with that rifle including one of the largest Grizzly Bears I've ever seen.

One of the girls I dated in high school father insisted that his daughter carry a Super Blackhawk when we went anywhere outside of town. That thing was nearly as big as she was but she could shoot it better than I could. Some other lucky dude married her...

Based on that experience I would say there ain't no guarantees, but I'd expect the bullet and velocity you have proposed would probably get the job done if you put it where it goes. Being "Treadwell Close" to a wild uncaged Bear is an experience you will not forget. I know how I reacted in my encounter - unarmed, I took cover. Luckily for me the Bear was more interested in the fish or I would have been transformed into steaming piles on the tundra.

[pls1911]

I find it interesting to see so many folks strongly arguing from the same side of the fence.

Agreed.... a nuisance long gun may not be within reach for long, and a mega thumper pistol just ain't enough gun to turn a PO'd mama griz...but it's likely to be within reach when a tree isn't.

The .458 or the suggested sawed off double slug super whammer is useless if I can't reach it, so I'll make as much noise as I can with what's at hand, be it .44 or a .45 heavy strapped to an accessible body part.

Go Fishin'!!!

[Bad Water Bill]

All I can say is do a LOT of practice getting that #2,#3, #4 etc shots off FAST. When your shorts are FULL and your knees are a knocking is not the time to practice.:bigsmyl2:

[Southern Shooter]

Hello Folks,

As the original poster, I wanted to clarify and update some things.

1) The gun I will be using is my Ruger Super Redhawk Alaskan .454 Casull with the 2.58" length barrel.

2) The purpose of the gun and bullet combination is for use during hiking and fishing in northern Montana and Idaho. And, I want my hands to be free with quick access to the gun. ( I am using the Guide's Choice chest holster made by Diamond D Custom Leather
http://www.diamonddcustomleather.com/Chest_Holsters.php )

3) I have decided to change the cast bullet mold from the 340 grain I originally posted to an Accurate Molds 360 grain mold with a wider meplat of .37. The mold will have both a plain base cavity and a gas-checked cavity. ( http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360C-D.png http://accuratemolds.com/bullet_detail.php?bullet=45-360D-D.png )

4) Velocity is going to be kept somewhere from 1,000 FPS to 1,100 FPS, initially. I am hoping the heavier weight and wider meplat will make up for what I am losing in velocity ( http://www.customsixguns.com/writings.htm ). I want to be able to control the gun. I think velocity much more than that may be a concern given I am not a large person standing at 5'5" and 160 lbs.
33500

33501

I hope this helps to guide and encourage more input. The discussion has really helped me think a lot of this through.

More thoughts, experiences, opinions??

Thanks

[bearcove]

It looks good to me. Practice with it and you won't have a problem shooting it.

It beats the heck out of a stick and a whistle.

[10 ga]

360 gr at 1000. OK! You need a TOUGH boolit, not a hard one! There is a big difference. 10 ga

[Southern Shooter]

10 ga,

Are you talking about a boolit that is soft and holds together or is hard and holds together through muscle and bone?

Thanks

[bearcove]

WW makes a good tough boolit. Linotype makes a harder more brittle boolit.

[MtGun44]

You've got a 4ft powder activated power drill. WHAT you drill (exactly) is what will
control the outcome.

Nice looker, should work well if placed properly.

Bill

[aaalaska]

1100 ,1200 isn't going to make much difference, what do you shoot better , what are you comfortable enough with to practice with. You can shoot lighter loads most of the time but need to know what that bullet /load is going to do, and feel like.I carry a Redwawk 44 loaded with 310 gr cast from the lee mold, straight WW's. These are tough bullets and penetrate very well, even loaded at just over 1100 fps, I have a Super Redhawk 454 ,and like the gun but the 44 has been with me for a long time and just feels like an old friend.

[maglvr]

That'll do the trick! I would however, suggest a nice hard bullet, at least WD/WW's.

[greywuuf]

I like the look of Both of the bullets you have shown and think either is a reasonable choice for your intended use. Here is a tip passed down to me by a long time Big game guide, that oft dealt with Garbage or human acquainted bears. 12 ga. Flare pistol , you dont have to kill it but it loses interest in you when it is on fire.

[NVScouter]

My last Alaska trip I packed my Ruger Redhawk in 45LC with a 4" barrel. 340g Lee .458 FNPB sized down to .454 and cast a bit softer then WW. I shoot them over 20g Lil'gun at almost 1,200FPS per the Hodgon data.

They are brutal to fire 50-100 rounds of but I can double action shoot them into a pie plate at 15yards. I also can slow fire them to a pie plate at 75yards. My expansion tests showed massive penitration and softening up the alloy a bit gave me really good expansion and penitration.

The load works, the gun is fairly fast, heavy but not stupid X frame heavy, shoot decent, and decent to carry. While a 8 shot 12GA with slugs and a overfolder may out perform that wasnt an option. What else can you ask for?

[W.R.Buchanan]

I just read this whole thread and it wasn't til the last page that Bearcove finally said the magic words.

If you are actually going to rely on this gun to save your life, then proficency will get you alot farther than a few grains in boolit weight.

You've got to be able to hit the mark when it counts ! PERIOD. And as many have stated above you have to do it with shorts completely full of doo-do.

I would not feel comfortable unless I had fired HUNDREDS of rounds thru that gun. It's a really big gun in the first place, and just getting your grip established and a consistant draw will be challenging.

But you've got to get used to picking up the front sight during the draw. The only way to accomplish this is thru practice and drilling under pressure. That means a shooting school. You can't do it by yourself because you need a coach and instructor watching you closely that know what you are doing wrong, and to correct you.

It would be also advisable to take a big game hunting course at Gunsite Academy in Prescott AZ. They have a class where you actually shoot at a moving target charging you ! This is the best possible training you can have for the intended purpose.

It's all about gun handling and proficiency. It has to be rote muscle memory. Believe me, you can't think your way thru this type of situation it has to be automatic!

When the :dung_hits_fan: you will shoot less than 50% of what you do in practice. This is a well known FACT!

If you are a 90% shooter in practice that's 45% and not bad.

If you are a 50% shooter in practice you suck outright!

I know very few people who don't suck outright. We just don't get tested very much in todays world.

Keeping your head and doing what is needed when under life or death pressure is something that is not easy to learn. You may just have to go with what you've got, in which case, I'd recommend either a prior careful assessment of how good your luck really is, or a very good relationship with himself above!

I'd say you need to shoot lots of Boolits before you step out of your truck, and you need to shoot frequently as this stuff goes away fast!

Do shoot hundreds of rounds, and I'd be looking for something in the .45 LC range for practice, and maybe a few hotter loads to finish each days practice. Then something un-imaginable in the gun behind several of the hot loads in case you need it. You definately need to be well aquainted with the big ones well before you need them!

So,,,, Good luck and shoot more!

Randy

[dualsport]

One thing I do know for sure, firsthand, it's really hard to shoot well when you're scared $#@&less, all freaked out and surprised. Try to figure out a way to induce some stress in your practice, maybe even have somebody scream at you from behind or honk a aerosol air horn at you, have them time you to increase stress. Practice your draw and dryfire fifteen ways from Sunday, even curled up in a ball on the ground. Work your weak hand too, maybe your strong hand will be out of order. If you're preparing for a worst case scenario, think of options or backup plans. No good reason not to carry a can of bear spray, what if Plan A goes to hell? Don't count on accurate fire unless you're used to facing mortal combat. As for me, my hand shakes bad, hearing is GONE, and vision goes to tunnel mode. Learn to draw and operate your weapon with that in mind, lots of practice. Muscle memory can save your butt. Throw in some wind sprints, pushups, and try shooting with an elevated pulse.

[JJC]

Nothing to add here other than I agree. In Dualsport's last line about an elevated pulse. My brother shared a hunting camp with a guy that never shot off the bench or had a calm pulse. He ran, did push ups, jumping jacks ect. His shot at a moose came after a 200 hundred yard run. The guide tried to get him to relax before the shot. He made a perfect kill. The guide was amazed he practiced in such a way.