Mold Yielding too Small Diameter

[ColColt]

Today I broke in a new Lyman mold(#358429). I had mixed lead with lead and Linotype in proportions of 3 3/4 lead to 2 3/4 pound of 50/50 lead to Linotype . I thought it would give a harder mix than it did but it turned out to be about BHN 8.2 according to the Lee tester that showed .078. Not only that but the bullets came out too small at .355-.356. Unacceptable for a .358 groove diameter in my GP100. I wasted about two hours today as they'll have to go back into the pot but, I'm not sure what to do about the mold throwing small diameter bullets...increase the hardness? The 170 gr mold gave bullets that on average were 160-161 gr.

[geargnasher]

First off, do you know that alloys containing antimony have to be allowed a few weeks to age-harden? If you cast them today, they could be 15 bhn in a month. Antimonial alloys will also grow a bit as they age, how much depends on the concentration, the diameter, and rate of cooling from molten to room temp. I wouldn't expect more than .0005" from the alloy and caliber you're using, though.

Second, throw that Lyman *** in the trash or try to get your money back and buy a mould from a manufacturer that still remembers how to make a mould marked .358" ast .358". I have a battery of the piles of undersized, out-of-round garbage. I swore off them a year ago, and don't ever plan to waste my good money on ANY Lyman product again. Even their sizer dies are out of spec. And don't think the company has any interest in making it right, I sent one mould back twice, on my dime, only to have it sent back the first time with "no problem found", and the second time they sent me a different mould that was even WORSE.

I've had good luck with Lee, Accurate Molds, LBT, and RCBS. The one mould I got from NOE cast a bit undersized unless I used a high-antimony alloy.

The best thing you can do is keep your alloy as cool as you possibly can, meaning just barely molten enough to fill out, and keep the mould as hot as you can, meaning cast really fast, about three-four pours a minute and cut the sprue when still soft, right in the middle of it's mush phase (firm but soft enough to cut with the flick of a gloved thumb). This should yeild the largest boolits possible. You want them to be shiny, at the point you're starting to see the slightest "frost" on the boolits, they are going to get smaller and smaller.

Good luck, but I don't think you'll get from .356 to .358 with that mould, no matter what you do.

Gear

PS if you have Lyman Cast #3 there is a handy chart there about alloy composition, caliber, and age relating to final diameter.

[ColColt]

Well, that pretty much sucks. The cavities looked superb but the top band isn't all that sharp. I figured I had wasted part of a Sunday afternoon when I let my first 100 cool down as I contineued to measure and weigh them. I thought it may be the alloy and or temperature and continued to cast. I stopped and measured again. Most were turning out .355-.356" so, I just quit. I had been casting at or around 680-700 degrees according to the thermometer and if it went below that they started coming out with rounded edges.

So, what do you do with an undersized mold-call or write Lyman? I don't recall having this problem with a mold before but of course, all my molds save two are 30+ years old. The Lee mold will cast them on average .360" regardless of alloy mix. If this is the norm for Lyman I've purchased my last one.

I didn't want to wait a month as these were gong to be loaded this week for next Friday's range time. Guess I can hang that up.

[mroliver77]

CC,
If you drop boolits from the mold into water they will harden much quicker. You will get a harder boolit also. If sending the mold back will not get you satisfaction, Eric @ hollow point molds will open up the bands for a price. I don't know where your gag point is concerning mold investment but it might be your best move.

http://www.hollowpointmold.com/#repairs

Drive band enlargement of multiple bands
$25.00 setup fee per mold + $5.00 per drive band enlarged. Lyman recut bands (and more examples)

All work performed starting with careful measurements of castings and mold dimensions. Machining performed on a Bridgeport CNC mill with special purpose cutters. A nose band can be added to a bullet with an undersized nose to fit it to the bore.

REQUIRED: send a few unsized castings from the mold along for measurement reference.

I won't do all the bands on a Loverin design mold!
Jay

[ColColt]

Dropping them into water is too late now. The surprised softness didn't bother me nearly as much as the size. I can deal with a softer bullet but can't do anything about the size. I wrote Lyman about the problem but I don't know what their response will be. Whatever it may or may not be it's my last new Lyman mold. Lee doesn't have a comparable bullet like this so I guess I'll have to look into one of the others recommended.

[happy7]

First: If your bands are not well filled out, that could be your problem. Get the mold a little hotter and cast again. If the bands fill out well, they will likely be a couple thousandths bigger.

But if that is not the problem... what was said above is unfortunately all too true. Junk is unfortunately the norm for Lyman these days. Especially undersize molds. Sending the mold back to Lyman will only waste your money on postage and cause you stress. Return it to whereever you purchased it for a refund if that is possible. I would recommend buying the Lee mold. They sell one that is quite similar to the Lyman 358156, apart from the fact that is only has a single crimp groove, but I view that as a positive.

If you want to keep it, you could either beagle it or to really fix it right, send it to hollowpointmold.com as suggested. He does outstanding work.

As a PS, a couple years ago, I went through this with Lyman with the exact same mold. I sent it back and got another mold from them. Exact same problem with the new mold. I now own the Lee. The Lyman is thankfully no longer my problem. I am much happier. I too will never buy another NEW lyamn mold. Unfortunately, this was about the third mold I got from them with problems (I guess I am a slow learner). It is just a sign of the times I guess and so interesting, that all my older lyman/ideal molds are on spec. Anyway, I still have a large coffee can full of undersize 358156 bullets. After two years I still haven't gotten up the courage to throw them back in to the pot and waste all that work. They are beautiful castings, but what can you do with 9mm size SWCs? But I have long since learned my lesson. All molds new to my possession get the first castings miced before I cast any quantity.

[happy7]

Lee doesn't have a comparable bullet like this so I guess I'll have to look into one of the others recommended.

http://leeprecision.com/xcart/6-CAVITY-C358-158-SWC.html

I think this bullet is quite similar.

[ColColt]

The bands fill out pretty good...just not the top one that great. I thought maybe my mike was out of adjustment so rechecked zero, miked some known good ones and it's right on. they still check out as .355-.356 on the Lyman mold. I'm not a happy camper having wasted all that time today and more so in Lyman who use to make the best there was. I have several 44 and 45 molds that are superb but they were bought in the 70's. Nothing is made like it use to be. I just replaced my old heat/ac system that was 41 years old!! The guys that installed the new one told me to not look for this one to last half that long. Sign of the times I reckon.

That 358 mold from lee looks similar to the Lyman but it's a 158 gr, which I already have their 158 FP mold and the Lee C358 uses a gas check. I guess I'll have to look some more for a replacement. I'm not sure what to do with the current Lyman mold yet. Eric may be a viable alternative to going through the hassel of sending it to Lyman in hopes of a replacement which could turn out to be just like this one.

[peerlesscowboy]

call 'em :mad:

[truckjohn]

They do seem to be having some trouble with undersize molds.....

Try beagling it with some aluminum tape.... The usual tape I have found is about 0.003" thick - which would do you about right.

The other option would be to lap it out using actual lapping compound.... 0.003" will take you a little while to do - but you can do it.

Thanks

John

[Ben]

People who buy Lyman molds and don't hold them accountable simply allow Lyman to continue with this poor quality control thing. Call them and force them to send you a mold that will cast .358 - 359".

Ben

[462]

What Ben said, but I'll add any company. I returned two Lee moulds, to Midway, because of extremely poor quality control.

All the Ideal and Lyman moulds I have, or have sold, were purchased as used and cast as designated or a bit over.

Edit to add: Return the mould!

[Dale53]

ColColt;
The Lyman 358429 moulds are spec'd to cast .355"-.356" on the front band. The middle and rear bands will normally cast .359" or so. If yours, mic's out that way, that's as good as it will get.

Elmer Keith complained about that thirty years ago. His original design was bands of equal width with the front band full size. Apparently, Lyman got complaints from customers because their guns wouldn't chamber the full size front band (undersize cylinder throats?). At any rate, that was Lyman's response to the chambering problem.

I have an older Lyman 358429 and it spec's out as I have stated above. It's not what I wanted but it IS what I got...

The Lee 158 RF with conventional lube groove is now my "go to" bullet for my .38 Specials and .357 Magnums. I am thinking seriously of ordering Mihec's 359640 hollow point mould (180 grs solid and 160 grs hollow point).

In fact, I just now did just that. I should have my new Mihec mould in a couple of weeks![smilie=w:

FWIW
Dale53

[Bret4207]

I think Dales theory lines up with one of mine. If you read the old, old Rifleman mags from the 20's-50's you'll find people complaining about boolits dropping too big. In those days most guys pan lubed and used a kake cutter, they didn't have a sizer. Sizers were considered a luxury. So Lymans answer was to cut the moulds smaller. I don't think they ever got past that idea.

[Le Loup Solitaire]

I've reached a point where I'm simply growing tired of commenting on Lyman's antics. They don't belong in this business and it would be a blessing if some other company would buy them out/take over and put them out of their misery. There is no thinking, progressive or otherwise in their camp. They still make a decent powder measure, the #55, but they are still threading it.....not 7/8 X14 that is used in/on all modern presses and powder stands; with a ridiculously odd thread that was once used on the Tru-Line Jr.... a press that has not been in production for at least 40+ years, so you have to use their silly $8.+ adapter to get it to fit anything.....unless you intend to use it on your 310 tool. Its pointless to list/rehash the QC mess in the bullet mold dept. They are not listening, do not seem to care, nor are there any signs of any imminent changes on the way. Its a sad state of affairs, but in this day and age one has to be concerned with where the hard earned money is going. LLS

[ColColt]

I wrote Lyman yesterday but as yet have not received a reply-not good PR in my opinion. I checked several bullets and they miked out at .355 on the top driving band, .356 on the middle one and .357 on the base. At a minimum, the middle and base bands should be .358-.359. My Lee 358 RN cast .360" regardless of alloy. I've used 10:1 and Lyman #2 and they all fall out .360". what I don't quite figure is why they're underweight as well. You'd think a softer alloy like 10:1 would be a heavier bullet but they came from the mold at 160 gr instead of 170 gr. I would have thought they'd weigh around 172 or so at least.

These were cast at 680-725 for the most part only dipping when I'd add a little to the mix. One time the temp shot up to 750 so, I don't think it's because the mold/mix was cold. Still I feel I ought to try it again but hesitate not wanting to waste my time yet again. If I don't hear from Lyman soon I'll be calling them. For now, giving serious consideration to getting Erik to work on the mold.

[7br]

Have you tried Beagling?

[geargnasher]

Lyman has been using worn out cherries for a long time, sometimes the mill operator lets chips get in between the mould blocks and the cavities don't get cut full-depth so your boolits are elliptical and undersized in one dimension, sometimes the cavity is fine (although usually undersized), but SOMEHOW they manage to cut the cavity with the blocks about .003-4" out of alignment, so that when the blocks are fully closed on the pins the cavity halves overlap slightly even though the outside of the blocks is flush. I've fixed one already by filing one side of the alignment pins and peening the holes on one side to shift the blocks so that the cavities line up again. I've seen four moulds shifted like this so far in the last couple of years, all about the same amount and the same direction, like the torque of the cutting cherrie shifts the blocks in a worn-out boring vise. Just plain garbage, no excuses for it. I've wasted enough money with them to buy a $120 custom mould or two in every caliber I own, which is what I'm doing now little by little except I wish I didn't have to spend the money twice.

Gear

[ColColt]

7br-I really don't know what beagling is. Never heard the term before I came here. This mold for the price should have been perfect from the get go and not leave it up to consumers to fix their problems. I have molds from them from the past that are superb. This one is trash. and I'm most disappointed with it

[swheeler]

Send it back to them and make them send you a mold that casts in spec, enough is enough!

[Bret4207]

Gear and Le Loup pretty much hit the nail on the head. Lyman doesn't care. They fired all their tool and die makers decades back, it's all outsourced to the low bidder now. Who know what background their mould cutter guys have. What matters is the bottom line. They don't care, why bother with them?

[ColColt]

I finally got a response from them today. They sent an email back with this...

"Yes that is dropping small it should be dropping .360 with a minus of .002
so .358 on the bottom end. You can send it back to us and we will evaluate
it for you."

Lyman Products

I didn't know the email had come in as I was at work and didn't see it until I got home so I called them from work today and spoke with a customer rep who basically wanted to know what temp, alloy I was using and where I measured the bullet. After we discussed that, she told me to send it back and put a couple sample bullets in the box and that they would either send another or repair mine and that it wold take 2-3 weeks. Just another hassle.

[geargnasher]

Good luck with that, Col. Make them reimburse you for shipping BOTH ways or you're just throwing good money after bad. If you sent it to Erik Ohlen at hollopointmold dot com, he can re-machine the drive bands any size you want, then you would have a pretty darn good mould. Lyman mould block material and alignment design is very good, it's the execution that sucks. If you get one that has good cavities, you have a fine tool. IF.

Gear