Which is the best .30 cal H-R barrel for cast?

[Marlin Junky]

There's a couple choices in .30 caliber barrels for the Handi Rifle SB2 frame and I was wondering if I could get some input with respect to the most productive chamber for boolits in the 150 to 180 grain range. I want use this thing as a short range varminter... say 200 yards or less. I'm leaning 30-30 and have pretty much eliminated the '06, but am wondering what NEF's .308 chambers are like... you know, long throat, short throat, sloppy here or sloppy there kinda questions. So which purchase do you suppose will grant me the highest probability of success?

Thanks,
MJ

[MT Gianni]

The only one I own is in 7.62x39 and it does well with the Lee 155 and the 311466. I have never shot it over 100 yards. Cases are not overly reduced from shooting through resizing.

[Marlin Junky]

I didn't see 7.62x39 on the list.

List includes:
30-30
.308
.308 Bull Barrel (can't imagine the chamber any different and the extra weight not necessary)
'06 (too much of a good thing)

MJ

[joejr]

h&r survivor 308 bull barrel,is more accurate than my 30/30 topper.
joejr

[303Guy]

You might reconsider the '06 as an option. I've read that it makes an accurate cast boolit cartridge (inspite of its overly large case volume). I wonder if it's something to do with the throat design coupled with the large capacity being able to deliver a 'softer' initial kick on the boolit base? It does have a longer neck.

http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/ChamberSpecs/30-30_WCF_SAMMI~Barrel_50%25.jpg
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/ChamberSpecs/308_Winchester_C.I.P.Standard~Barrel_50%25.jpg
http://www.tmtpages.com/LinkSkyImages/forum_images/ChamberSpecs/30-06_Springfield_C.I.P.Standard~Barrel_50%25.jpg

[Marlin Junky]

Thanks for the drawings 303Guy. Of the 3, I would say the 30-30 is the most cast friendly* (disregarding volume as a variable) but wouldn't it be safe to assume NEF's reamers vary somewhat? I suppose if all their reamers are within some tolerance of SAAMI specifications then your drawings are all I need to base my decision. I wonder if all NEF's .30 cal barrels start out from the same blanks? I would image to keep costs down, the answer would be yup.

MJ

P.S. * Note: At least with the shorter boolits I intend to use.

[303Guy]

I don't know. I have always (well recently anyway) thought that the 30-30 is about the perfect cast boolit cartridge. Not too big, long neck and in the break action NEF what's to go wrong! Apparently, a full charge of H4350 under a cast boolit works well. I just thought that the 30-30 by its design would make a perfect cast boolit cartridge and looked into it a bit and found several comments supporting my supposition. As you know, I am just a little biased toward the 303 Brit but do regret the fact that it has such a short neck. Anyway, last weekend I went out hunting with my pig gun which requires a 205gr paper patched boolit seated way out. Not having tested my rounds for magazine feeding I ended up with a single shot with the ammo kept in my pocket and discovered that's not such a good idea with such long exposed lead boolits. One of them got bent and I had to finger straighten it! (Soft lead). The loads I was using would have been better served by the 30-30 case but I won't admit to that. :roll: 205gr hollow nose paper patch boolit over 30gr H4350/AR2209 in a very short barrel. From what I can make out (I was hoping to post a picture of an exit wound to a goats head but couldn't) it is a very effective loading with a 1-in-10 twist. So, your 180gr weight choice would put you right on the money with the 30-30 at I would think around 1900fps.

Could someone come in and confirm or correct me here?

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Your maximum velocities will all be very close regardless of the chambering you choose, somewhere in the neighborhood of 2000 fps. Handi Rifles usually have a long throat so seating the bullets out will be necessary to get anywhere close to the rifling. This will dictate a longer 165-180 grain bullet . Of the three I believe the 30-06 will provide you with the most satisfactory results. It has a decent neck length will achieve the necessary 2000 fps with less pressure than either the 308 or 30-30. It will, however, usually need a filler of Dacron with its preferred loads. A couple would be H4895/IMR 4895 30 grains or 27.5 of 5744. Both of these loads drop approx. 9-10 inches at 200 with a 100 yd zero using pretty much any 165-180 bullet. The 30-06 is a forgiving cast shooter and can be very accurate when you get the load tuned. I shoot all three calibers with cast and the 30-06 is my favorite with the 30-30 a close second.

Mike

[olafhardt]

30-30 brass is always noticably cheaper.

[Marlin Junky]

...Of the three I believe the 30-06 will provide you with the most satisfactory results. It has a decent neck length will achieve the necessary 2000 fps with less pressure than either the 308 or 30-30.

Mike

Less chamber pressure, yes; however, it'll require more powder and more muzzle blast (all .30 cal. H-R barrels are 22") to achieve the same arbitrary 2000 fps (1800-1900fps should actually be enough for what I want to do with this rifle).

As far as SAAMI spec's are concerned, I'm surprised the .308 has more freebore and a wider neck than the '06. Interestingly, the combination of freebore and throat lengths on the '06 and .308 are virtually the same. Never having shot cast through a .308, I couldn't even guess which is the better configuration. The '06 does have a slightly more gentle throat angle.

MJ

[mdi]

I've read that one of the "better" choices for cast bullet competition shooting is the old 30-30. Wide choice of bullets available. Wide choice of powders fit for cast in this cartridge...

I'm just getting started reloading for my Handi in 30-30 and from what I've read on Handi forums, it can be quite accurate.

[Marlin Junky]

...from what I've read on Handi forums, it can be quite accurate.

The Handi forums really don't go into detail with respect to cast boolits, do they? Please, provide links.

MJ

[onondaga]

Lots like the 30-30, none have mentioned why I really like the 30-30.. The internal ballistics. The case capacity has a volume that allows a variety of powder selections that can be used to 100% case capacity and still have pressures very compatible with gas checked bullets. The full case of powder eliminates and lowers some ballistic variables that significantly add accuracy for this cartridge. There is no even ignition problems with a full or compressed powder charge. That is very significant to accuracy potential. Many powder selections allow high capacity filling of the 30-30 that keep that problem reduced. this is why 28 grains of 4895 is so popular with the 30-30 it works well and is consistently accurate.

I also like the 7.62X39mm for the same reason and shoot a compressed load with 4895. it has safe usable pressure that GC bullets tolerate and yields good killing power of 1000 foot pounds at 150 yards with a 150 gr GC bullet clocking 2150 fps using 28.9 grains H4895 in my rifle. If the case capacity was larger like a .308 or a 30-06, sure I could use more powder but the pressure and velocity would be beyond what will be accurate with #2 alloy GC bullets and a full case of powder in those larger volume cartridges is fine for some jacketed bullet selections but way past the line for practical gas checked bullets. Big capacity cartridges will need fillers to be usable at all for many powders because of ignition problems.

I am not a fan of using low volumes of fast pistol powders in rifle cartridges, although many here are and do well with accuracy. I see too much potential for uneven ignition and ignition failure due to large airspace and a small charge. Detonation potential is also higher with those tiny loads in my opinion.

So there is a reason for the 30-30 or similar volume case like the 7.62X39mm to be an excellent choice for GC cast bullets. The main reason is that they work well.

Gary

[303Guy]

Well said onondaga. That is my thinking exactly. Not that I have ever loaded or even fired a 30-30. Then for a single shot break action the rimmed case can't be beat. The 30-30 with its long neck also gives the option of a heavier boolit which in my opinion adds just that much more power to a moderate velocity boolit.

[Marlin Junky]

Onondaga,

I agree with you to a point but most '06's (I can't speak for the .308) love 4759 and 170-180+ grain boolits. 22-23 grains will get one into the 1900 fps neighborhood with good accuracy. The 30-30 chambered in the same barrel is undoubtedly more flexible unless one's goal is the most velocity possible with something like 311284.

MJ

[Smoke-um if you got-um]

Less chamber pressure, yes; however, it'll require more powder and more muzzle blast (all .30 cal. H-R barrels are 22") to achieve the same arbitrary 2000 fps (1800-1900fps should actually be enough for what I want to do with this rifle).

As far as SAAMI spec's are concerned, I'm surprised the .308 has more freebore and a wider neck than the '06. Interestingly, the combination of freebore and throat lengths on the '06 and .308 are virtually the same. Never having shot cast through a .308, I couldn't even guess which is the better configuration. The '06 does have a slightly more gentle throat angle.

MJ

I've always preferred the 30-06 and 30-30 simply because they have treated me well in the accuracy vs velocity dept. and were forgiving of quite a few powder and bullet combinations. My 308's have been somewhat picky about their chosen loads and I've never been able to get the velocity/accuracy I wanted with cast. Others seem to have whipped theirs into shape and they shoot great. My other 30's work well with both PP bullets and lubed cast. I have no idea what I may be lacking when trying to get the 308 to shoot as well. They just start behaving badly when I start to approach the 1850fps threshold that I can easily surpass with both the 30-06 and 30-30 with lubed cast. As for the powder amount used I actually use more powder in my 30-30's, 31-32 grains BL-C2, than what I use in the 30-06's to achieve similar velocity and accuracy. I've never had to use fillers of any kind in the 30-30's though. I've just always surmised that some anomaly I did not have the patience or knowledge base to address was the issue with my 308's and stuck with what worked well for me. Good luck and have fun, that's what this is all about any ole way. :wink:

Mike

[mdi]

http://www.go2gbo.com/forums/index.php/topic,31860.msg180160.html#msg180160

Info on 30-30 cast.

[nanuk]

As far as SAAMI spec's are concerned, I'm surprised the .308 has more freebore and a wider neck than the '06.
MJ

MJ: Could that be due to how the brass case was first designed? a shortened -06 case would need a fatter neck to accomodate the thicker brass in that area?

that way, the manufacturing process could cover both cases with the same dies up to a point?


just thinking out loud here

:popcorn:

[HARRYMPOPE]

A well known benchrest shooter has one in .308 and one in 30-06 both do close to an inch with cast bullets.The 30-30 is only a good choice if you throat it.A standard 30 carbine reamer run in works like a charm.The 15 deg angle from end of the case with no throat is a horrible way to go.Many Remington 788's in 30-30 when throated will shoot 50% better than before with heavier bullets.The 788's in 308 almost always outshot the 30-30's anyhow.Back in the old Cast Bullet Association matches the production class was dubbed "the 788 class" because of the dominance of them(mostly 308's.i don't care how small the case capacity is it if doesn't have good neck and throat dimensions the assumed advantage of the smaller combustion chamber is moot.I have had a few 30-30 bench rest guns and with a good chambers they are amazing.


HMP