BPCR vibrate or drop-tube?

[Hogpost]

I quit using the (grumble grumble) drop tube coupla years ago when I found I got just as good results by vibrating each case for a few seconds on one of those battery-powered "ticklers"(from that kind of bookshop...:shock:). Just did a Google search for black powder compactor, and there's an outfit selling a little machine that does a whole bunch at one time. Campbell-something company. Anybody tried one?

[Kraschenbirn]

Hmmmm...I've been experimenting with doing both...at the same time. Made a spring-loaded shell-holder for my drop-tube and touch a cleap electric hair trimmer to the case as I pour the powder. Seems to work pretty good 'cause I'm getting 9 to 10 gr. more Goex FFg in my .45-70 cases...before compressing.

Bill

[littlejack]

A couple of years ago, I built my drop tube. I figured if dropping was good, maybe dropping and vibrating at the same time would be better. I went to my local Good Will, and bought a small ladies electric shaver. I epoxy'd it to the back of my droptube frame. I turn it on and then pour the powder in the funnel and down the tube. It works great.
Jack

[Hogpost]

Cheese, you guys remind me of my grampa: belt AND suspenders!
I skipped the drop tube completely, maybe just 'cause I'm short and hate standing on a stool then bending over with every round. Doin' a bunch at one time seems like easier still.

[Dan Cash]

I use a Lyman 55 measure and no drop tube. I have marked the measure at the point which the powder just starts to flow from the chamber to the cartridge. At that point I give the knocker a couple of flicks then lower the handle about 1/8 inch and give a couple more knocks after whick I gently lower the handle to its lower limit. The powder is in the case at the same level that I have obtained with a drop tube and the end results on target are the same. I hate gizmos.

[hepburn45110]

Cheese, you guys remind me of my grampa: belt AND suspenders!
I skipped the drop tube completely, maybe just 'cause I'm short and hate standing on a stool then bending over with every round. Doin' a bunch at one time seems like easier still.

I'm with Hogpost. Throw it in the case, mash it and go on.

[NickSS]

I have loaded powder directly into the case using a Lyman 55 measure then put the entire tray of shells on the lid of my vibrating tumbler for about 5 seconds. Result is that the powder settles to the same height in the case as using a 30 inch drop tube. I use both methods depending upon how much speed I am interested in.

[Hogpost]

Yup, that's what I mean: vibration seems to settle as good or better than a tube, but I've been stuck doing one at a time. Doin' a tray at a time sounds even better, like you do. So, anybody tried that little Campbell machine? Any excuse to add another cool doo-dad to my reloading bench.

And Hepburn, it isn't just smokeless that's a passing fad: them automobiles and airplanes and radios & such will never last.

[Don McDowell]

Using a method similar to Dan Cash's makes the most sense, as you still probably need to use a compression die anyway, so why fiddlefaddle with the tube and all the other stuff.

[RMulhern]

Using a method similar to Dan Cash's makes the most sense, as you still probably need to use a compression die anyway, so why fiddlefaddle with the tube and all the other stuff.

Don

+1 on your comment! [smilie=b::groner:

Think I read the same thing....15 years back!!

[Hogpost]

Dan, your method undoubtedly works perfectly, and it's just a matter of preference. As a retired engineer, I natually like gizmos. Rather than a ritual of 3 separate stages of handle-pull with two sets of knocker flicks in between, I like the idea of just dumping the stuff into the case, and shaking a block of carts for a few seconds. I'm sure we get exactly the same results. Thank God we don't all like the same thing, as there'd be not much to talk about on forums.

And Don, I think compresssion and compaction (drop tube or shake) are different things. If the charge is not compacted to remove air spaces, and compacted pretty much the same amount, then even more compresson is required and the amount will vary from cart-to-cart. Dan's method takes care of all that. Am I missing something? (Probably am....)

[Don McDowell]

It's a pretty straight forward deal, the height of the powder column for a given charge weight of powder and the seating depth of the bullet remains the same no matter how you get there, whether you drop tube and vibrate then use the bullet to finish compressing, or if you slow pour into the case and use a compression die.

[Hogpost]

Hmmm, Don, with respect, I don't think so. Yes, the final height of the powder column is the same, given the volume of charge, the volume of the case, and the seating of the bullet. But how you get there is different. A settled charge will be of lower height, and with no air spaces, and will require less forceful crushing to seat the bullet to the same height. The more forceful compression required to achieve the same final result means more likely grain damage (that is, crushing the grains to dust); the final result will also be less consistent round-to-round. The difference may not be a big deal, but there will be a difference, I think.

Maybe we need a real hardnose BPCR competitor (I'm not one by a long shot!) to chime in here about compression versus compaction/settling/drop-tubing/whatever they call it. Those guys are about as finicky as it gets.

[ClemBert]

I use a drop tube for 40 grains FFFg in a .45 Colt or 60 grains FFFg in a .45 BPM. If I don't the powder it will spill out of the cartridge before you'd even have a chance to vibrate the case. I still use a compression plug after using the drop tube.

[Don McDowell]

Hmmm, Don, with respect, I don't think so. Yes, the final height of the powder column is the same, given the volume of charge, the volume of the case, and the seating of the bullet. But how you get there is different. A settled charge will be of lower height, and with no air spaces, and will require less forceful crushing to seat the bullet to the same height. The more forceful compression required to achieve the same final result means more likely grain damage (that is, crushing the grains to dust); the final result will also be less consistent round-to-round. The difference may not be a big deal, but there will be a difference, I think.

Maybe we need a real hardnose BPCR competitor (I'm not one by a long shot!) to chime in here about compression versus compaction/settling/drop-tubing/whatever they call it. Those guys are about as finicky as it gets.

Yeh well I guess the half dozen or so 2 day matches a year I shoot in, and the case of powder or so my wife and I shoot up during the course of the year probably don't stand up to much when stacked up against all your great experience.
You'll have to excuse me, I need to go finish cleaning the 100 cases we fired today .[smilie=b:
Oh I forgot to tell you about spotting for R Mulhern at a match, and have actually met Dan Cash at various matches...

[littlejack]

OOOOOOP's, thats gonna leave a mark!

[Dan Cash]

And Don, I think compresssion and compaction (drop tube or shake) are different things. If the charge is not compacted to remove air spaces, and compacted pretty much the same amount, then even more compresson is required and the amount will vary from cart-to-cart. Dan's method takes care of all that. Am I missing something? (Probably am....)

Be sure that I have to compress the charge. With out compressing, there is no way one can get 70 grains of 2Fg and a 550 grain bullet into a .45-70 case. Without trickling or settling the powder by some means, the compression requires excess pressure and frequently produces bulged cases and inconsistant ignition. Just dumping 70 gr of powder in the case results in a case so full that any attempt at settling the powder results in spillage, at least for me. I think that the other hard core competitors on this forum will concur.

I would listen to McDowell and Mulhern; I have learned a lot from them and they are tough shooters.

[Don McDowell]

Dan will you make it down to shoot at Alliance ?
We're planning on Baker again this year.

[Lead pot]

I dont use a drop tube to much anymore. I let the Lyman 1200 measure out the powder charge and the powder gets dumped in a funnel right into the case and when the funnel is empty I use the powder pan and tap the side of the funnel rim, that settles the powder enough. Just because say that the caliber is a .45-70 or 110 that doesn't mean that you have to get 70 of 110 grains of powder in that case.
I get better consistency with a case full of powder that has no compression to less than .100". Yes some powders do burn cleaner with heavy compression, but you can overcome the heavier fouling and still hold accuracy.
All compression does is make dust when you hear that crunch.

[jackley]

Black Powder Cartridge, winter 2009, Issue#68 Article, Settling Powder Charges by Bob Glodt

I will just give his results from the last paragraph.

In summary, vibrating is OK for settling 3FG Swiss powder in cases, but a drop tube should be used for 1 1/2FG Swiss or coarser granulated powders.

Best 5 shot group from drop tube loads at 200 meters 2 1/2" X 1"

Typical 5 shot group for vibrated loads at 200 meters 3" X 4"

[Don McDowell]

Alot depends on the velocity level you need to have.
To get a 45-70 to make the pit safety factor using grease groove bullets , if you don't want to compress then you need to go with a "3"f powder and barely make velocity. To get the needed velocity with most "2" f it takes a good bit of compression to get enough powder and bullet to make the required velocity levels.
Paper patch bullets are a bit different as they are generally seated out further in the case.
Lots of variables to consider from velocity requirements , to accuracy requirements.

[montana_charlie]

... oops ...

[montana_charlie]

A settled charge will be of lower height, and with no air spaces, and will require less forceful crushing to seat the bullet to the same height. The more forceful compression required to achieve the same final result means more likely grain damage (that is, crushing the grains to dust); the final result will also be less consistent round-to-round.
Without trickling or settling the powder by some means, the compression requires excess pressure and frequently produces bulged cases and inconsistant ignition..
Looks like two men in total agreement, to me.

the height of the powder column for a given charge weight of powder and the seating depth of the bullet remains the same no matter how you get there, whether you drop tube and vibrate then use the bullet to finish compressing, or if you slow pour into the case and use a compression die.

Using a method similar to Dan Cash's makes the most sense, as you still probably need to use a compression die anyway
Looks like all three agree.

Apparently, the only problem here is that Hogpost inadvertantly hurt McDowell's feelings.

CM

[Lead pot]

Here is an example of loads I posted else were I loaded with out using a drop tube. I just dump the powder in like I said on the last page Just tapping the funnel with the powder pan to make sure none of the powder clog up in the funnel.
I normally dont shoot 5 shot groups when I start to develop a load with a new powder or bullet, three shots will tell me what it will do and from there I will go with a 10 shot and even a good shooting load can change from day to day or at a different location.

A friend has been pulling in the direction to the KIK powder he has been using with great success and I picked up a case of the 2F KIK and shot, and shot it till I just about used the rest of the case I had left and used it to fertilized the potatoes with it. It just would not get anyplace near to what I consider useful.
But I'm finding out that it was not the powder, it was the bullet giving me the problem, but I was to bull headed to listen to what the rifle was telling me, I dont like this elliptical bullet, so I went back to what the ODG's used back 140 years ago, and I got a mixed case of KIK from Jerry at Powder INC. and went to work.
Well It really wasn't much work at all I saw my groups shrink right back down to where they were using the 1F goex exp using the 1F KIK and 1.5 KIK and the smile came back on my face
I started at 130 yards on my range and right off the bat the groups were right back to the norm.
I shot these with the round nosed cup based bullet. It didn't like the flat nose to well.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0519-2.jpg


This target I took to the range and shot those groups at 200 yards. I hope you can see the load data written by the groups. The day I shot this session a storm front was moving in and the group at 2 O-clock went wild when a piece of paper hit me in the face just as I broke the shot.
It was a heavy cloud cover and the humidity has high mead blow tubing ideal for this day.
By the way those black pasters are not mine I pulled that target out of the burn barrel and used it. there are a few .30 caliber holes that are not pasted. All in all this shooting day really made me feel good that the 1F and 1.5F KIK is working.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0519-3.jpg

Here is what I shot today. The weather was great, good light very low winds but a little on the dry side with the humidtity about 33% but I used the B-tube for all shots and I did not patch the bore till all shots fired and then I blew 5 times and pushed a dry patch down the bore and it went right through with out a problem and the barrel was hot.
I didn't have a tape measure with me so none of the group sizes are marked on the target.
All groups are 3 shots except the 2 groups shot using swiss. And the swiss was shot after running a dry patch through the barrel.
I started getting a little vertical but I figured I would get that just using the B-T on this warm dry day but I figured it would be a lot more vertical. This powder has soft fouling and it is light.
The group sizes are starting at the 9 o-clock in the black going left and up heading right clock wise.
2.5", 2.5" 2 5/8, 2 1/4" 2 1/8" 1 3/4" 2 5/8" 2 5/8" 1 1/2" 1 3/4" 2 3/4" 3 1/4" the swiss 6" total with 3 at 3 1/8" and the last swiss was 3 1/4". all loads were with very light to mo compression.
I'm happy with the way this powder is working with out even getting into a load development.
http://i704.photobucket.com/albums/ww43/Kurtalt/IMG_0530.jpg

[Hogpost]

Don, if I insulted you, it was certainly not my intention, and I apologize most respectfully. I have nowhere near the experience you do, and my purpose is only to learn not just what, but why, from people who really know what they are doing. There is a fine line between a discussion and an argument; I thought we were having a discussion but I guess my wording made it sound otherwise. I simply wanted to fully understand something that did not make total sense to me.

From this thread alone, it seems like there are at least four different methods and opinions, all of which work well for the individual posters. And there are variations in amount of powder used, grain size, etc; the point raised about full charges spilling over if not drop-tubed was something I had never encountered and thus never considered.

Thank you all for your posts here. I have learned a lot, including hopefully how not to accidentally tick off a real pro, and please accept my apologies for doing it.

[Don McDowell]

Not tic'd off , no feelings hurt, merely pointing out that there were already a handful of the "hardnosed bpcr competitors" already throwing their two cents worth in.
There really is no "correct" way to get it done, except for the one that works for you and meets your accuracy expectations.

[Don McDowell]

Leadpot , is this with the roundbarreled gun or the octagon.
How's Kathy's 45-70 reacting to the kik?

[Dan Cash]

Dan will you make it down to shoot at Alliance ?
We're planning on Baker again this year.


Not sure about Alliance though I want to, 14 Aug i think. Mark and I are planning on Baker.

[Don McDowell]

Dan if we don't see you at the Alliance match in 2 weeks we'll see you at Alliance then.

[Lead pot]

Leadpot , is this with the roundbarreled gun or the octagon.
How's Kathy's 45-70 reacting to the kik?

Don, I used the octagon not yours:razz:
I put hunting sights on the round one. I just for the heck of it might use the round barreled with the Lawrence and blade for the 1000 if the wind isn't blowing 20 mph full factor, it holds better.
I haven't started on the .45 yet but I did cast up 100 PP for it today to bring along to Alliance.

Hogpost.

Like Don said there is no just one way to settle or load a blk powder round.
I use several different ways putting powder in the cartridge as long as you do it in a uniform way and like Don said, How much powder for a given velocity your looking for.
All 10 of my BPCR react differently even in the same caliber.
I posted the above targets just for a reference showing that you can get a decent result not using just a drop tube, but I will use it to see if I can tighten the groups some more.
Those above are just a first trial with a two day follow up to see if the first was just a fluke for a first time load.

[Hogpost]

Thanks, Lead pot, there's for sure no one way to skin a cat. That's why I asked the original question, to see what other folks more experienced than me had encountered. I have plenty of input now to keep me busy experimenting; and for me, that's the fun part!

[Lead pot]

It's good to ask questions, but it's better to try and find out your self.