Young Guy With A Lot Of Questions

[Punisher422]

I recently bought my first black powder gun, a Pietta 1851 Navy in .44. My biggest question is this: If I leave the cylinder loaded for an extended period of time will it harm the cylinder in any way? I'm using Triple 7 with felt wads and cast .454 balls.

The stupid question is this: Are No. 10 caps smaller than No. 11 caps? I bought Remington No. 11 caps and they are extremely loose.

Also, what is the max load for this gun? I have the brass framed version. A note from Cabelas in the box said max load was 25 gr but the Pietta manual said to only use 12-15 gr. I want to use this gun a lot and not shorten it's life by shooting max loads at targets.

Thanks for the help in advance, the guys I normally have answer my gun questions have never messed with black powder guns.

[frontier gander]

If its loaded on a clean cylinder you'll have no trouble.

Pistols use #10 caps.

If its a brass frame, i wouldnt use more than 10 grains T7.

t7 is 15% hotter than pyrodex or black powder 2f.

[NickSS]

I one time loaded a 36 cal revolver then never shot it for some reason. It sat loaded in a drawer until I moved and it was packed loaded in a box where it sat for six years until I found it one day by accident (I forgot I even owned the thing). When I saw that it was loaded I took it out in the back yard and fired off all six chambers without a single hitch. After cleaning it was as good as new. No 10 caps are smaller than No 11. On piatta revolvers as well as most Italian made revolvers the nipples were sized for Italian N0 11 caps which are smaller than CCI No 11 and bigger than the CCI No 10. You will find the CCI No 11 loose but can be made to work by pinching it before putting on the nipple. The No 10 caps will be tight and may or may not go off at the first hammer fall. This can be fixed by placing the nipple in a drill and reducing the diameter of the nipple with 400 grit sand paper. Or you can by a new set of nipples made for US No 11 caps like I did. As for loads I would not go beyound 25 gr of FFFG or eqivalent volume of Pyrodex P. As for 777 I would go no higher than 20 gr equivalent volume (not weight) of it. Also I would use corn meal or cream of wheat to take up extra space in the chambers.

[Hellgate]

I have one of those brassy guns and I wouldn't shoot more than 18 grs T7 in it. Use a filler. In mine, I have only shot FFFg Goex and I do not exceed 20grs. I also use lube wads under the bullet but I would never leave it loaded with a lube wad as the powder would get oil leached into it. T7 is a hotter powder and a couple of cylinders chuck full of it would likely make it into a paperweight. The arbor (cylinder pin) tends to get pulled out of the frame and the cylinder gap opens up to where the cylinder will slide forward and back on the cylinder pin and it quits going off & locking up right. It is not an economical fix. With a steel framed Remington you could probably do OK with full chambers of T7 without harm to the gun.
Also, try Remington #10 caps first before reshaping your cones. Mine (the slick action brasser 44 Navy) loves them and has stock nipples. The Rem#10 is just a longer Rem#11 that seats further down onto the cone shaped nipple and thus seems "smaller". The CCI #10 is usually way too small. ALL of my C&Bs take the Rem#10 cap (if not, I would use stainless replacement nipples from Uncle Mike's/Butler creek or Track of the Wolf that fit Rem#10 well. I have stock nipples on all my Uberti Remingtons (2) & Walkers (2), ASM Colt "Navy" 44s (3), Euroarms Remingtons (4), Pietta US Marshall, and the Pietta brasser 44 Navy. The rest have the SS replacement nips. Half of my 15 guns (last count) take the CCI#11s and half will take the RWS#1075 but ALL take the Rem#10s which have just enough "give" when seated to fit them all.

[Punisher422]

I've been measuring my loads on my reloading scales. Should I have been using a powder measure istead?

By the by, I shot it 12 times last night and had approximately 1/8" gap between the cylinder and the barrel. The wedge appeared to have been bent pretty severely. I've only shot this gun a grand total of 30 times. It's now on it's way back to Cabelas, which should have no qualms exchanging it since I had it the grand total of three days. Was this due to the Triple 7 load, or could it have been caused by something else?

[Boz330]

T7 is hot. Yes you should have used a volume measure and kept the loads on the light side. Real BP would be a better thing for sure. I have one of the brass Pietta's from Cabela's and it shoots very well with black and a 20gr load by volume.

Hopefully Cabela's will take it back since it may have been overloaded and there is a warning in the literature against it. Before they went public they were very good about backing their product, which is why I bought from them even though there prices are on the high side. Several years back I bought a pair of pretty expensive boots from them that started coming apart after one season of guiding and they basically said tough luck.

Bob

[northmn]

With black powder you really should not be able to overload a revolver as the ball will stick too far out for the cylinder to rotate. I have shot most of my shots out of my 1860 pretty much maxed and unless 777 is really compressed it should not be quite that damaging over a few shots. 777 is recommended to be loaded by volume equal to a BP load so one needs a measure to use the stuff. Brass framed revolvers loosen as much from loading as from shooting and pure lead ball need to be used. Make sure you grease the end of the cylinder or use wads when loading as that is supposed to prevent multiple discharge. Also the 11 caps can be pinched on and used up untill you can get 10's. When match shooting we used to be required to load revolvers single shot anyway.

DP

[Hellgate]

I say you shot the gun loose. A VOLUME measurement of about 22-23 grs is approximately a WEIGHED amount of 15 grs 777. So, if you are shooting 25grs of WEIGHED 777 that is a VOLUME equivalent of 35grs BP. AND 777 is 15% more powerful so you were shooting a load with a pressure close to a 40gr BP load. Also, if your cast lead balls are not DEAD SOFT then the rammer force needed to seat them pulls on the arbor and when fired they pull the barrel/arbor forward as they go down the barrel. The other BP subs (Pyrodex, APP, Golden Powder, Black Mag 3 are closer to real BP in their pressures. T7 generates higher pressures. I use it in my 357. The volume in the 357 case is about 22-23grs of BP but actual weight is only 15grs. The T7 shoots about 20-30% faster than BP or the other subs.

[gnoahhh]

All good advise. I would add that for target shooting, the ball only has to make it as far as the paper. There's no point in loading a C&B revolver hot (especially a brass frame). It's amusing to watch guys beat their guns to death with heavy loads simply because "they can", and then listen to them piss-and-moan about their guns loosening up. I have a 50 year old Navy Arms 1st generation brass framed Colt .36 Navy that has had God knows how many thousands of shots through it, and is still tight because 99% of those shots have been mild target "poppers".

[northmn]

777 may shoot a revolver loose if loaded fully, I do not have much experience with the stuff. If loaded with wads you would put more limit on the volume. We used to shoot a variation of bowling pin in BP matches where we would shoot wood chunks off a beam and time it. I preferrred a heavier load for that use in my 1860. I also shot about 30 grains at paper because I liked point of aim and that was the best. It is still pretty tight. It is also a steel frame.

DP

[Punisher422]

I was not attempting to "beat my gun to death with heavy loads" like some people. I was attempting to actually go on the light side. Triple 7 was all that was available in my area. Cabela's has a note right in the box that says that max loads for brass framed revolvers is 25 grains, while the Pietta manual says 15 grains is the max load. I was attempting to go for a happy medium with enough ooompph to get to my primitive lead trap and punch a hole in my target. My roundballs were dead soft pure lead.

Out of curiousity, why is it better to measure rather than weigh loads? I thought it would be more precise and consistent weighing them. Thanks for the input, I'm trying to catch up on knowledge in a hurry.

[Boz330]

The minimal variation in loads from a volume measure wouldn't be enough in a revolver to make any difference. In a long range ML at 300+yds you might be able to tell a difference. BP can be ordered in as small as 5lb packages delivered to your door. For the brass frame I would be more inclined to go with one of the other subs if you don't want to go with BP. Personally I never had much luck with Pyrodex, but I go through enough real BP to order case quantities.

Bob

[Hellgate]

The substitutes are formulated to give pressures and velocities comparable to real BP with the equivalent volume of powder so a BP/muzzleloader shooter can just use their BP powder measuring devices and not exceed BP pressures. Most of the subs are more powerful than BP on a weight to weight basis but quite similar on a volume to volume basis. Most, if not all the subs are less dense than real BP. That is why you will see the bragging on a bottle of Pyrodex claiming so many more shots per pound compared to BP.

[gnoahhh]

I have never seen the need for a black powder substitute. The real McCoy is cheaper, and is the standard against which the substitutes are gauged, so why bother? Is it a cleaning issue? Doesn't one clean one's gun anyway, no matter what propellant is used? Is it a "smoke" issue? More shots per pound (which is negated by the added expense)? I too buy black powder in bulk (shhh, don't tell the local fire marshal) because the local emporiums don't often carry it. Not a big deal. Sorry, not trying to start something- I just don't get it!

[northmn]

I agree about the use of BP as I also order it. I can shoot Swiss for less than I can buy some of the subs locally. There has been a bit of confusion concerning weight/volume even among some of the more experienced shooters. When I tried subs in BP cartridge I would calibrate MEASURE to see if it threw about 70 grains of 2f black powder. I would then use that measure to see how much it would throw of 777 or Pyrodex by weight. The batch of Pyrodex I had would toss 58 grains out of that measure that was calibrated to 70 grains. I would then weigh the Pyrodex for cartridge loads to get even compression. Could of probably used the measure for that. You use the subs by equal MEASURE of black powder. Volume is in cubic inches, centimeters or whatever and weight is in grains. But somewhere someone got them a little confused. For a revolver you can get a measure that is supposed to be calibrated by grains and use it to load and would use equal volumes of any of the subs or BP. A lot of users like the wads under the ball. I grease the ball with Crisco. As to beating the gun to death, you can with a brass frame I guess. Brass frames are also going to loosen some when using the loading lever and some seat the ball using other means. They were an expedient used by the South to manufacture more revolvers in the Civil War and were not a common manufacture used by Colt or Remington. The Walker with its large capacity was found to be too much of a good thing and the Dragoons that followed were improvements on that design and used less powder but we are talking about 60 grains down to 50 grains. A holster pistol like the 1851 or 1860 uses about 35-37 grains max. They do beller at that load and loads of about 25 grains or so are more pleasant to shoot in an afternoons shooting. I raised the front sight on my 1860 as it shot very high with factory sights (as did most originals) and it liked to hit a point of aim at 30 grains for bullseyes. The full load would knock the blocks of wood off the beam very handily and is not a bad back up pistol if desired in the woods. For rabbits a 25 grain charge would work.

DP

[Punisher422]

Just to let you guys know, I got a new stainless Pietta Rem. 1858 in .44. The awesome thing is I got it half off at the Bass Pro Catalog store in town. I paid a grand total of $220 with tax for a gun that's listed most everywhere for $399. Now I just have to get a powder measure and I'm going to attempt to find some real black powder. If I have to use the 777 in this one I'm going to back it way off.

Thanks for the help guys.

[405]

[QUOTE=Punisher422;1238513] Now I just have to get a powder measure and I'm going to attempt to find some real black powder. If I have to use the 777 in this one I'm going to back it way off.

Well, The 1858 is way stronger than the type of 1851 you had! Nothing fancy needed for a powder measure. Just fill a chamber enough so that a ball when seated with a little compression is just below the face of the cylinder. Smear each throat with some Crisco or bore butter.... fire. Once you determine the amount of powder to fill the chamber as described above you can make one for nothing out of a pistol cartridge cut off so that it throws the right amount. Why use any more 777????? Use the real black and you won't have to worry about over loads in the 1858 simply because you can't get enough FF or FFF real black in under a roundball in that gun to cause any problem. No BP in MO???? Find Mexico, Missouri on map (central part of state)- that's where Grafs is or check here: http://www.grafs.com/retail/catalog/category/categoryId/3501

Oh FYI- a 357 case holds about 24 gr GOEX FF, 44-40 holds about 36 gr GOEX FF and a 38-40 holds about 34 gr GOEX FF. If you need more volume then cut/trim a thin-bodied rifle cartridge. Or if you want to dedicate a flask to the handgun get a pistol flask with gate valve and pistol spout long enough so that it can be trimmed to delivery the correct amount.

[northmn]

For as revolver the flask is a very nice assessory. A flask I like is the CVA flask sich is less expensive than the replica flasks but has a screw off end for easy filling and can be made to stand on the bench. I ahve one in the field model which is nice as I do not really carry taht much powder in the field. A larger one is nicer for bench shooting. It takes the standard powder measure tips and I think comes with 30 grains. Loading as suggested to the point where the ball can be seated also works.

DP

[John Taylor]

Never cared much for the brass frame revolvers. Posted one time that 10 grains of 3F was a good target load and got punished a bunch for my post. I have had several brass frame revolvers over the years and have seen many more that just did not hold up to well. Take a close look at the picture and see what happens with a steady diet of full BP loads. The cylinder setback in the frame let the barrel gap extend to about .040"
http://i95.photobucket.com/albums/l132/johnptaylor/1851cylindersetback.jpg

[Hellgate]

Great photo of the ruined brasser!

[Odinbreaker]

I use Shockley gold 3 f in my Remingtons ignites great no residue and you don't have to worry about excess pressure.

[Punisher422]

Shot the new 1858 yesterday. Good groups, no mishaps, and everything seems to still be in working order. Thanks for the link 405. As soon as I'm through shooting target loads with the rest of this 777 I'll make a trip that way and get some real black powder.

Here's another newbie question: How good do my cast round balls have to be to shoot decently accurate? My first batch gave me fits and I kept less than 50%. I melted down most because they had a minor wrinkle or two on the side, but since the cylinder shaves lead off of the side does it really matter?

[northmn]

Better ball means better accuracy, but mostly if you have air voids and other things similar. Target shooters weigh the ball to make sure they are consistant. Load sprue up as that is the easiest to see. If you are shaving the sides they are tight enough. One thing that can make a revolver a bit wild is the lube used over the ball. You need to use something like Bore Butter or Crisco and put a ring around the edge of the ball. Many like the wads that fit between the ball and powder made for that purpose and do not lube the ball. For light target loads the wads also bring the ball closer to the end of the cylinder. Some used to load powder, fill with cream O wheat so that the ball seats at the end of the chamber. Make sure your bore is clean and clean any petroleum based oil out of the bore before shooting. When I target shot at bullseyes I would load one cylinder and fire the pistol single shot as range rules required that to prevent cross firing on the firing line. Some would find the most accurate cylinder chamber and use just that one. These are tricks used to hit the 10 ring in competition. When you order powder, Grafs seems to ahve a softer fouling than GOEX but does not have the oomph, GOEX was my standard for many years and if it were all that I had to use I would not complain, Swiss is great but spendier and is a choice of a lot of competitors. I use Swiss in my deer hunting loads and Grafs for my 25 squirrel rifle. Goex is great for my smoothbores and for plinking. Swiss is still cheaper than 777 if bought in quantity to spread out the Hazmat fees. Real BP may also help your accuracy problems. In cartridge rifles black powder has the least shot to shot variance of any powder, period.

DP

[Hellgate]

I just visually sort them int grade A, B, & C. If I were to go to a bullseye competition I would weigh the "A's". For plinking, who cares?