Shot the SBH .44 today..does this look like high pressure?

[Matabele]

Load was 330gr LBT style WFN (wheel weights, water dropped), throats are .432" and bullets are unsized and dropping at .433". Lube was Lee Alox. I live in Africa and the powders available here are different from what you use in the U.S. but going from the picture of the primers does that look like high pressure to you?

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Tamboti/SBHLBT330GRFirstTry1.jpg

http://i152.photobucket.com/albums/s194/Tamboti/SBHLBT330GRFirstTry.jpg

To me the primers look like they are flattened and show signs of engraving from the firing pin shroud. I did ream and uniform the primer pockets though, but just enough to show a clear bright ring of brass before seating the primer, the primers didnt look like they were seated too far down.

Also whats with the lead splash around the case mouth...what would cause that, is it a problem?

Thanks!

[curator]

If the brass extracted easily then the pressure is probably OK. Some primers are softer and make nicer breech-face impressions than others. The lead wash on the case mouth would give me some concern. I get this when I shave a bit of lead when crimping the case mouth. I "cured" this by crimping in a seperate step rather than when seating the slug. A Lee Factory Crimp die will fix this too. (and maybe a bit better)

[Doby45]

Primers look fine to me. I would also recommend setting and crimping in two different steps. Do NOT use the FCD as it will more than likely swage your boolit down.

[243winxb]

Fired brass will stick in the chambers if high pressure. Primers are only 1 thing to look at. How much the web expands is another method to read pressure. SAAMI drawings here giving maximum case mesurement. http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/index.cfm?page=CC The lead splash around the case mouth might mean the alloy is to soft. Oven heat treating , then dropping into water works better than dropping from the mold to water.
Lyman - Heat Treatment of Cast Bullets to Harden Them


Quote:
Q: Is there anything I can do to make the bullets harder?
A: Cast bullets can be heat treated to increase their hardness providing your alloy has some antimony present. To heat treat your bullets: Cast your bullets in the normal manner, saving several scrap bullets. Size your bullets but do not lubricate them. Place several scrap bullets on a pan in your oven at 450 degrees and increase the temperature until the bullets start to melt or slump. Be sure to use an accurate oven thermometer and a pan that will not be used again for food. Once the bullets start to melt or slump, back off the temperature about 5 to 10 degrees and slide in your first batch of good bullets. Leave these in the oven for a half hour. Remove the bullets from the oven and plunge them into cool water. Allow them to cool thoroughly. When you are ready to lubricate, install a sizing die .001" larger than the one used to initially size them. This will prevent the sides of the bullets from work-softening from contact with the sizing die. Next apply gas checks if required and lubricate. These are now ready for loading.

Many more casting tips at Lyman website.

[405]

In revovlers sometimes pressure signs are "masked" by the small amount of headspace that is built in to the design to allow for free movement of the cylinder. Upon primer ignition the case is pushed forward by the primer impulse... the primer is partially pushed rearward and out of the pocket... the main charge goes to max pressure and the cartridge is rammed rearward against the recoil shield... the primer is re-seated and flattened. Having said that it still looks like you are at pretty high pressure. Whether or not it is too high.... hard to say.

Agree with curator on the lead wash. Either or both- the particles of lead that are shaved during bullet seating or are being eroded off into a colloid mix in the gas plasma at firing are being deposited shortly after initial firing impulse and before the neck expands to full seal.

[4given]

I would proceed with caution. They look a little flat to me. Like the others said. what are your other pressure indicators like? Cases sticky & hard to extract?

[44man]

Primers do NOT show pressure differences and those are NOT flat.
It only shows the gun has tool marks on the recoil plate.
The lead wash is most likely because the boolits are too large for the throats and you are peeling some off. Your WW's might be too soft too, none are the same.
Dump the LLA fast, it is junk.
YOU DO NOT WANT BOOLITS LARGER THEN THE THROATS! You want the throats a little larger then groove size and that is all. Then a boolit that will slide through the cylinder will be right.

[BABore]

Primer are flat and pressure is high when you no longer see the radiused edge of the primer pocket on your case. Don't ask how I know that. [smilie=1:

[white eagle]

by the time you see flat primers its too late
just because the cases fall out of the cylinders
don't assume that you have not hit the pressure limit
cases that are over pressure can still fall easily from the chambers
oh yeah big o howdy from Wisconsin

[Bass Ackward]

I am not concerned about the pressure right off as you did get'em out, but that lead is in your chambers now.

So those primers are going to look worse and worse as you move along if you aren't cleaning well.

[Echo]

+1 for most of the above. My minor concern would be for the cratering shown on the primers. While not great (in this case), cratering tells me that you've generated a lot of pressure in the case.

But if they extract easily, I say there's no problem.

YMMV

[Aunegl]

looks good to me...

[geargnasher]

Those primers aren't anywhere near flat.

Measure the web for pressure determination, plenty of info on how to do this. My observations on revolvers is that if the primer isn't flat, (talking pistol, primers here, not rifle like the uber magnums use), then you most likely aren't over-pressuring the round unless it's a .38 special or .45 Colt, in other words a low-pressure round. However, the reverse isn't reliably true at all. If the primer is flat, it could be with headspace or thin rim issues, NOT from excessive pressure. It only takes a few thousand PSI to completely flatten a primer, I've flattened LR primers AND cratered the pin marks with 500 fps firelapping loads in my .30-30 which has excessive headspace with full-length sized brass. The primer pops out an wraps around the firing pin, then the case head comes back as the pressure rises and rivets the primer partway back in the pocket, filling every last crevice in the primer-head junction. That's why it's advisable to enlarge the primer flash hole in severely reduced loads.

Gear

[Matabele]

Thanks for the replies everyone, its good to know Im not pushing the envelope too much. I made up some Felix lube, so will try that on the next batch and see if there is a difference on the lead wash.

Also the dies Im using are RCBS carbide, they come with a spacing ring the instructions say should be used when sizing Magnum length cases (as opposed to .44 Special). What im doing is bottoming the die on the shell holder and then backing up the die a half turn so there is a slight gap between shell holder and die...is this enough for the Magnum case or should I back it out more? Am I oversizing the case maybe and thats causing the lead wash problem?

[Matabele]

Oh forgot to ask what do you consider as "extracts easily"? The loaded rounds when chambered, slid in and out by merely tipping the gun, no drag at all. Fired cases did not do this, and could not be extracted by trying to slip a thumbnail underneath. However using the ejector rod they slid out easily without any significant force being required at all.

[dverna]

What powder and charge weight are you using? Maybe others have some data for it. If you did not have loading data, how did you establish a starting load? It sounds like you guessed at it.

You are braver, smarter, or dumber than I.

Lucky too! What are 4 winning numbers for todays lottery?

Don

PS A buddy of mine got an old Springfield bolt rifle when he was a kid and could not afford to get it checked out. He strapped it to an spare tire and tied a 30 ft string to the trigger. Loaded a mil surp round, went behind a 2' oak and pulled the string. The gun was fine and the round extracted easily. He went on to shoot the gun a lot.

If you need to guess at powder weights a similar "test protocol" may be wise. I would hate to see a nice SBH blown apart but they can be replaced. Unless you have a strong desire to win a Darwin Award, prudence is called for.

Beginners and kids read these forums. Good practices must be encouraged and poor ones admonished. Guessing at a load is a stupid thing for a beginner to do (at least here in the US). In Africa, necessity and lack of resources may "force" you to experiment as you have done. But there are ways to minimize risk.

[475BH]

I size to the shell holder.
When I seat bullets I use the spacer under the seat/crimp die lock ring.
Then take the spacer out and crimp the cases.
That way I don't have to loosen the lockring and have crimps differing each loading.
Ofcourse I ensure the cases are the correct length before loading.

[243winxb]

The RCBS Tungsten carbide die should have 1/16" between the shell holder & die, or the thickness of our US nickel coin. If dropped or jammed against the shell holder, it could crack.
or should I back it out more? Am I oversizing the case maybe and thats causing the lead wash problem? Your sizing is OK, has nothing to do with the lead wash. Your brass photo looks like a lot of gas is getting past the case mouth. Is the brass expanded fullly on firing?I am thinking your powder charge might be on the light side because you fired brass shows no sight of expanding. Take measurement before and after firing. Are you oven heat treating your boolits?

[243winxb]

This is what i call "extracts easily".>
However using the ejector rod they slid out easily without any significant force being required at all. When you are way over pressure, you will need to remove the cylinder from the frame and pound out the brass with a metal rod. When you have to bump the brass with the ejector rod a few time, then your are about maximum.

[midnight]

Matabele, you wouldn't be from South Africa, eh. I havn't seen any PMP brass for a while. I shoot PMP in the 303 British. It's the heaviest 303 brass I have ever seen. Were the 44s heavy also? By the way, your primers look fine to me.

Bob

[Uncle R.]

Primers do NOT show pressure differences and those are NOT flat.
It only shows the gun has tool marks on the recoil plate.
The lead wash is most likely because the boolits are too large for the throats and you are peeling some off. Your WW's might be too soft too, none are the same.
Dump the LLA fast, it is junk.
YOU DO NOT WANT BOOLITS LARGER THEN THE THROATS! You want the throats a little larger then groove size and that is all. Then a boolit that will slide through the cylinder will be right.

Yep.
44 Man knows.
Ideally, the throats should be slightly larger than the bore.
The bullets should be a slip fit in the throats - or at least should slide through the throats under light thumb pressure. If the bullets are really a full thousandth bigger than the throats it might cause trouble - depending on your alloy and hardness.
<
Your primers look normal to me - but the pressures would probably have to be REALLY high for a .44 magnum before the primers would show anything.
<
Using primer appearance as a pressure indicator might be practical for 55K rifle cartridges but for lower pressure rounds it's risky, and it becomes increasingly dangerous in firearms designed for those lower pressures. As a worst case example, some old top-break "suicide special" .32 revolver would almost certainly self-destruct at pressures well below what would show up as flattened primers. At the other extreme, strong, modern bolt-action rifles will easily hold 60K pressures that will be visible on most primers. A Super Blackhawk, while strong for a revolver, is sort of in the middle.
<
The only thing I'd add is about the LLA. I've found it's OK for light target loads - sometimes - but I agree that conventional lubes are better than LLA for magnums.
<
Uncle R.

[fredj338]

by the time you see flat primers its too late
just because the cases fall out of the cylinders
don't assume that you have not hit the pressure limit
cases that are over pressure can still fall easily from the chambers
oh yeah big o howdy from Wisconsin
Possible, but in decades of shooting the 44mag & other straight wall cases, I have never seen a over pressrue round not stick in the cyl. I have seen rounds that are not over pressures stick, usually rough chambers.
I don't think they look very flat, not for magnum loads. I defer to the lead boolit experts here on the lead wash on the case mouth, never seen that either. Check your cyl throats, if the smaller than groove dia, open them up, if larger, then load the largest dia bullet that will fit your chambers.

[Rocky Raab]

Neither primer appearance nor case expansion nor extraction are completely reliable by themselves. All three together might tell you something, though.

The most sure sign of high pressure is muzzle velocity above the book level for a maximum load. You didn't mention velocity, so perhaps you didn't chronograph that load. Do so to be sure.

I've always had good luck with LLA, even to rifle speeds, but other lubes are just as good. As to bullet size, I second the thought that yours are a wee bit too large. They should match the cylinder throats. If they drop through each chamber with just a bit of drag as they exit, you're fine. If they plummet through or have to be forced through, they are too small or too large, respectively.

Finally, that spacer washer in the die set is NOT for the sizer die, but is there to adjust the seat/crimp die to Magnum length - assuming that it will first be adjusted to load Specials. If you don't load 44 Specials, just adjust the seater to crimp your Magnum cases properly and don't use the spacer at all. The sizer is adjusted the same for either Special or Magnum: just touching or a hair above the shellholder. It should not press hard against the shellholder or you can crack the carbide sizing ring.

[ColColt]

A couple of things I always look for as for the primer is loss of rounded edges, cratering and pierced primer. If I have either I back off 1/2 gr at least and test.

[frankenfab]

the gun has tool marks on the recoil plate.


I totally agree.

And definitley seat and crimp in 2 steps.

Primer catering is also a function of the clearance between the fring pin hole and the firing pin.

[303Guy]

Matabele, PMP cases are thick walled so won't expand at the web or anywhere else under high pressure. Not only that but they will generate higher than spec pressures because of the reduced case volume. Then again. they have a smaller internal base area which produces slightly less rearward thrust but that won't offset the increase in pressure.

P.S. There is nothing wrong with Somchem powders. I had a lot of MR200 that gave me a velocity spread of 2m/s when weighed charges were used.

[Matabele]

Awesome stuff, thanks everyone for your replies, Ive learnt a lot of stuff in the last couple of days, thanks!

I have made up some Felix lube, so I'll try that out next. The bullets are probably too large going by what everyone is saying, I'll try resizing and see how that helps.

Midnight Im from Zimbabwe actually, although the PMP cases are South African. I'll weigh a case and let you know, the PMP brass is all I have so i dont have anythng to compare it with.

Dverna I agree completely, safety is paramount. The powder im using has been discontinued but there is still a lot out there. I spoke to several knowledgeable sources and local shooting magazine and we came up with a start load. A guess yes but an educated one...and I dropped 1gr from that amount to be on the safe side.

Thanks again, this sixgunning is fast becoming an addiction!!

[doubledown]

QUOTE from 44man.

"Dump the LLA fast, it is junk"


44man, care to elaborate? I ask because I am having very good luck with it. ( in one rifle with one boolit) I just got started recently in casting and know you have alot of knowledge with the 44 (thats what i am casting and shooting with 45/45/10) and casting in general.

My 300's are leaving the barrel @ 1425fps its a 20" barrel 1894 Marlin and my cast boolits out shoot all J bullets I have tried, and I tried ALOT. I get no leading at all. What is your experience with LLA? Just trying to learn DD.

[mroliver77]

Now might be a good time to hash out the boolit to cyl mouth fit issue. I was taught to size boolit to an exact fit( just a bit of drag when pushing a boolit through) to -.005" fit to the cyl mouth. I have read a lot of guys state that they run the boolit larger than the cyl mouth by .001" - .002". Some of these are famous gun writers. For some of my SWC loads the boolit is seated long enough that it must be small enough to fit in the mouth. This has worked well for me. Now lets here from others how they do it. Jay

[gunslinger20]

Primers look fine to me. I would also recommend setting and crimping in two different steps. Do NOT use the FCD as it will more than likely swage your boolit down.

The trem FCD are you refering to the lee factory crimp die? I f this is the case I dont understand.

If the boolit is swedged down in the crimp die how does this happen as the die doesnt squeeze the whole boolit just the crimp area. I think.

Correct me if im wrong.

[FISH4BUGS]

Primers look fine to me. I would also recommend setting and crimping in two different steps. Do NOT use the FCD as it will more than likely swage your boolit down.

I have just concluded a series of experiments with the LEE FCD on pistol bullets. 9mm, 380 and 45. No sizing down at all. I FINALLY have cured the "generous chamber bulge" for my brass fired in the MAC, Uzi and S&W 76 subguns. Reliable feeding now in all guns, including the 3914 S&W.
Revolver cast I have never had to use the FCD. I think I would be looking at the alloy first. Make it a bit harder.

[mroliver77]

I have just concluded a series of experiments with the LEE FCD on pistol bullets. 9mm, 380 and 45. No sizing down at all. I FINALLY have cured the "generous chamber bulge" for my brass fired in the MAC, Uzi and S&W 76 subguns. Reliable feeding now in all guns, including the 3914 S&W.
Revolver cast I have never had to use the FCD. I think I would be looking at the alloy first. Make it a bit harder.

Could you post more on these experiments? We like to know how others have gone about it and see how you come to your conclusions. Then we can duplicate your experiment if we want and find if our guns produce same results.
Thanks,
Jay

[peerlesscowboy]

Primers do NOT show pressure differences and those are NOT flat.
It only shows the gun has tool marks on the recoil plate.
The lead wash is most likely because the boolits are too large for the throats and you are peeling some off. Your WW's might be too soft too, none are the same.
Dump the LLA fast, it is junk.
YOU DO NOT WANT BOOLITS LARGER THEN THE THROATS! You want the throats a little larger then groove size and that is all. Then a boolit that will slide through the cylinder will be right.
my thinking also........

[GREYGHOST]

Just happened to read this post today. You may or may not be aware that even without significant overpressure signs, your brass primer pocket may have stretched enough to have a blown primer with a much less pressure load the next time around. Had that happen about a week ago and the gases etched the firing pin bushing using 8.5 grains of Unique with a 205 grain cast bullet from 44 mag. Just food for thought.