How close do you weigh your boolits?

[Hamish]

I was going to PM a couple of guy's on this, but then I thought, you know, there's a whole bunch of new guy's floating around here that may not have even thought about the subject.

Used to, when casting and loading the 2 boolits I shot for silhouettes I would weigh(t)? and reject any outside of one tenth of one grain of targeted weight.
This was not a big deal as I was really only shooting one caliber of boolit and playing around with the other.

Now then, deciding to play with three rifle calibers at one time I just let 'er rip and started stuffing boolits in cases. Not the most sigh-un-tiff-uh-cull way to go about it. Wanting to try some Lee 155gr. SKS boolits As Cast in the wifes .303 I sat down and started weighting a run of about 100. I ended up making two piles: one of 152.9 to 153.4, and another of 153.5 to 153.9.

At this point I am strictly looking at groups and have considered that if I sat down and made a big enough casting run I could just make piles by one tenth grain and test by the pile, but eventually when the groups get small enough I will have to settle on a certain weight of boolit.

And finally, the big question. To you's guy's what are at least semi-serious about checking your boolits, how close do you keep your run of boolit weight?

Rich @(:^]#>::::kissarse:

[onondaga]

Hunting boolits +- one grain

Match boolits +- .5 grain

Gary

[Bass Ackward]

Weight is VERY important.

Hunting or target bullets, I AWLAYS look at what's stamped on the side of the mold.

[stubshaft]

.5% of the total weight of the boolit. If the boolit weighs 580gr then I reject anything below 577.1 and over 582.9. With the exception of .225" boolits they have a .1 gr window.

[white eagle]

weigh boolits ?
oop's

[454PB]

I went through a period of obsessive boolit weighing long ago. What I learned was that I got about the same results with a good visual inspection as I did with weighing each and every one.

If you want a surprise, weigh all 100 bullets in a box of jacketed hunting bullets, they vary more than you think.

[WildmanJack]

Funny, I just did that this morning. Weighed about 150 cast boolets for my .30-06 . They were from a Lyman 311041 supposed to drop at 173, Well they droped anywhere from 143 to 175. So I took all the ones that went 174 up to 174.5 and loaded them over 11.5 gr. of 700x. grouped .25 moa at 50 yds, then shot 1 MOA at 100 yds but about 2 inches left and an inch low. I guess I should b e happy with that group. Don't know if weighing them helped but I think I'll do that from now on..
Jack

[Ole]

I always weigh a few bullets after a batch is made. That way, I know what to divide 7000 by for a boolit count. :mrgreen:

Don't pay much attention to it besides that.

[pdawg_shooter]

+ or - 1% for me. Goes real quick with a Pact scale.

[Kraschenbirn]

Seein' as I don't cast anything lighter than a 155 grainer (for rifle), I usually go +/- 1/2 grain on the .30 cals and +/- 1.0 gr for the .375s and .460s which pretty much works out to 1/2% across the board.

When inspecting handgun boolits, on the other hand, I might weigh a half dozen, or so, at random out of a casting run of a couple hundred. Rarely weigh any more than that unless I see a trend away from the expected weight.

Bill

[Hamish]

onandaga- +1
stubshaft- Dang fine way of putting it.
454pb- Playing silly wets learned that right off with the J's. It's almost stupid how much variation.
Wildman- That was a blatant drive-by and you know it!
white eagle, thanks for making me laugh, Bub!

and finally: Bass Ackward, I have alway's enjoyed your humor and paid attention to the sage advise I have read in your posts anytime they have appeared on this august forum.

"Weight is VERY important.

Hunting or target bullets, I AWLAYS look at what's stamped on the side of the mold."

Hmmmm,,,, Let me look here on the side of this here mould.

It say's, (wait for it)

LEE


Rich @(:^]#>:::: (Ducking and Running for Cover)

[fredj338]

I only weigh hunting bullets, most are LHP. I am looking for no more than 1% deviation from average.

[drklynoon]

Yesterday I weighed my 255 gr. SWC for my 45 and found that my bullets were in two main groups ones that were +- .1 gr at 248.7 gr and ones that were +- .1 gr at 248.1 gr. I have read the Lyman manual and this suggests that the lighter bullets could have a void in them. On the other hand there could be slight differences in alloy. I've started sorting them in there respective piles and am going to shoot them with their own batch.

[WildmanJack]

drklynoon,
When I was shooting .45 competitively I never weighed but one in 10. Then only when I was shooting to the 50 yd target. If I was shooting 15 or 25 yds, I seldom weighed any. I guess I just figured that the weight wouldn't effect the trajectory at that distance. In 1981 I won the Florida State Championship, so either I was really lucky or I was right. Now at almost 65, I'm happy to hit the target every time. LOL..

Jack

[high standard 40]

This is a timely discussion for me. I shoot IHMSA handgun silhouette and have shot many perfect scores with jacketed bullets but wanted to do so with cast. I began last year using an XP100 7TCU and the RCBS 145 SIL bullet. My alloy is clip-on wheel weight metal plus 4% by weight 50/50 solder which gives me close to 2% added tin.
I started just visually sorting my bullets and keeping only those that looked near perfect. I can only practice on a 100yd range and I quickly discovered that a good 100yd group does not guarantee a good 200 meter group. My scores hovered in the low 30s. This year I purchased an RCBS 1500 digital scale and started sorting by weight after first visually sorting. I keep all bullets two or three tenths of a grain either side of the average weight of a batch. I separate the bullets by tenths of a grain and noticed a curve in the results. The stack with the most bullets in it is usually right at that batch's average weight. Using this method I usually cull about 40% of all the bullets from a batch. I did find some bullets that visually look perfect but will be 3 grains light indicating an internal void. These were probably my unexplained fliers.

Is it worth it? Well I've only been to one match yet this year and it was the first since I started sorting by weight. I only had a zero with my new load out to 100 yards so I was zeroing as I went. I missed my first turkey low and my first ram low but made quick adjustments and got all the rest for a 38X40.

I sort my hunting bullets the same way and groups with those rifles are notably better also.

[Kraschenbirn]

Yesterday I weighed my 255 gr. SWC for my 45 and found that my bullets were in two main groups ones that were +- .1 gr at 248.7 gr and ones that were +- .1 gr at 248.1 gr. I have read the Lyman manual and this suggests that the lighter bullets could have a void in them. On the other hand there could be slight differences in alloy. I've started sorting them in there respective piles and am going to shoot them with their own batch.

Were those all cast from the same mould cavity? I've had more than one double-cavity mould where there was a consistent variance between cavities...like as much as 2 1/2 grains in one case.

Bill

[felix]

HighStandard is doing it correctly for lead boolits that are cast. It is almost worthless to do his process unless 80 percent of the boolits pass the inspection to the EXACT same final grain weight. Variances are kept in their own piles on a 0.1 grain basis. Keep modifying the lead before casting for real until the lead quality meets specs for that mold, that gun. Hopefully, the gun is that good to go through all this mickymouse. ... felix

[XWrench3]

Rifle boolits 1 grain. Pistol boolits, i just do not do. With my eyes, and open sights, and only shooting 7 yards, i am quite happy with my results. The exception to this though are the 44 mag boolits. I have been seriously trying to get better at this for longer range shots (50 yards vs. 7 yards). And i am in the process of making an aperature rear sight for it.

[pls1911]

Onodega is right on...
That is +/- 1 grain for hunting (or anything else other than than bullseye/ benchrest rifle match)
Cast a couple of hundred in your best cadence using one lot of alloy, and lay 'em out in series.... You'll find than weighing every single bullet in sequence of casting will give you pretty much a bell curve, with the majority in several middle piles +/- 1 grain in shootable lot quantities, but within a grand variance of maybe 5-6 grains but with LOTS of bullets in each pile +/- 1 grain.
I measure to .5 grain then combine the biggest adjacent piles into the biggest lots, making up +/- 1 grain lots.

Of course there will be a few extremes which will make you laugh and scratch your head....WAY heavy and WAY light .... these piles are few in number and indicate other problems and go back into the pot.

[cbrick]

high standard,

Your correct about the good 100 meter groups and poor at 150 and beyond. More than one cause for this beyond the load, twist rate etc. Years ago I was shooting an FA in 454 and it would stack them on the 100m pig and I was lucky to even get a turkey, forget the rams. Past 100 it went all to haitis. Found the cause, bullets way too hard, just didn't need or like them heat treated 30 BHN things. Same load came in nicely with 18 BHN. Same thing goes for my current silhouette revolver, an FA 383 357 mag, 17-18 BHN, after that the groups open up.

Back more on topic, you can reduce the weight variation of a given lot of bullets by not keeping the first 6-8 pours from each session. I pre-heat my molds on a hot plate and even so the lightest bullets of a given casting session are the first ones thrown regardless of how good they may look.

Years ago I went through the weigh every bullet thing. I did enough of that to teach myself that it did me no good. Anymore I weigh a random 10-15 from each session and don't keep the first ones thrown, tells me more about any possible changes in alloy than anything else. As an example, the last three times I cast the RCBS 35 180 Gr. silhouette bullet, even though I added alloy to the pot several times between sessions, the 10-15 weighed were, 188.3 gr. - 188.5 Gr. - 188.4 Gr. Tells me the alloy was right close each time. I've shot many revolver 40x40's and a 60x60 revolver State Match without any of the bullets being weighed.

The bullet weight is a percetange of the whole. A one Gr. variation (+- .5) of a 180 Gr. bullet is minor. As was mentioned, weigh a box of full length gas check bullets sometime, I'll bet there is more variation there than in your cast bullets if your casting technique is good. If your grouping .224" stuff a one gr. variation of a 44 gr. bullet is a much larger percentage.

Rick

[marshall623]

I cast for silhouette guns also I weigh all of mine for my 7-30 waters to +/- .5 a gr. . I've only been casting a couple of years but I notice with more casting sessions under my belt the more consistant bullet weigts I get. I'm going to skip the weighing for my Prod. gun ( 7tcu with iron sights ) because I need more help than weighing bullets , that would be range time which I don't get much of except for a match.

[watkibe]

When I weigh mine, I have to get pretty close, so my reading glasses will let me focus on the numbers displayed by the scale.
Hope that was helpful...or at least droll.

[6.5 mike]

I just started weigh sorting mine when I switched from a bottom pour to a ladle, much more consistent for me. One of my lee 200 gr drops at 199, 200, or 201, I sort to +/- 1 gr or .5 %. Use the 199s for dummy rounds ect, the 200s are loaded for my krag hiwall, & the 201s will be used for hunting loads in an 30-06. I think , at this point, this helps remove a varible in the loading process. Like the silly wet guys, I feel it does help put my febble mind to rest on this issue. Plus SWMBO says I get to play with my toys longer before I wrap them & launch them into the great unknown. I do put back bout the first 4 pours & the range is from 199.6 to 201.3 or so, still within 1% of total weight. I've also found this works well for me & the lee bator, runs from 52.5 to 53.2 on average with shot & 1% tin.

[rwsem]

I mostly hunt w/ a revolver in Louisiana. Shots are usually under 100 yards. Deer don't know if they were hit w/ a 210 gr or a 212 gr. 41 mag and frankly neither do I....

I guess when I get home I should start sorting; it may be less frustrating during the range time.

Ron

[Bass Ackward]

Hmmmm,,,, Let me look here on the side of this here mould.

It say's, (wait for it)

LEE


See how important LEE thought weight was. :grin:


What constantly amazes me is peoples " NEED" to weight. In under-stabilized situations or extremely long range where understabilization develops, there can be a need. But most people generally lube their bullets. Your error is lube weight more than bullet weight. So weigh your bullets lubed.

Then it gets complicated. It's not just the weight of the slug, but the weight when it is dressed leaving for the party. (the muzzle) Everyone has experienced, "the least amount of lube necessary" factor. Ever wonder what part this plays in it?

And since you have no way of controlling complete weight or resulting BC changes between slugs from various stages of filled groove portions, then my error is NOT the bullets but the damage lube caused.

This is out of my control unless I cater to it with wider or shallower grooves and softer lube for the velocity. And I do for low velocity RPM situations.

If you have problems with "accuracy" from bullet weight, then you have a mold that needs better venting or you don't check your block faces as you go for lead. 99% is venting as heat affects the mold and unintended beagling.

Do that and do a visual later and Professor Target will grade you the same. Weigh a box of jacketed in that weight and you will have your tollerances. (eye opener)

Discard those defective slugs for grandkid fodder and then watch them shoot sub MOA and kick your butt.

But ......................... like anything else for shooting, it only makes a difference if it does. (for you) Find the real problem and fix it.

[btroj]

I have NEVER weight sorted cast bullets. I cull those with obvious defects and just shoot the others.
I enjoy shooting not tedious tasks related to loading.
Maybe if I as shooting a nice bench gun looking for tiny groups I would consider weighing them but otherwise I don't see a need.
How many of us are really capable of puts opting our guns or our bullets? Bet it isn't many.

[high standard 40]

As I said earlier, I weight sort my bullets and can see a big improvement in accuracy at long range and that is what I seek. My goal is to cull bullets that have an unseen flaw like an internal void and to get a group of bullets that have a common weight for consistency. I don't care if the bullets weight what the mold say's they should. If the mold is stamped 145 grs and it drops bullets at 151 grs, no problem. I can adjust the load for that. And I agree with what others have said here. If you don't shoot long range or benchrest, weighing would be a waste of time. I certainly don't weight for my 45ACP or my 40S&W.

[felix]

BR condoms are selected by the feel of swaging during the jacketing stage. That FEEL feel must be the same from bullet to bullet, and the actual weight variation has nothing to do with it. A verification would be to measure the diameter of the bullet at its widest point, which is where the compression ring is. Must be the same on all bullets. ... felix

[Hamish]

The above two post by high standard and btroj are *exactly* why I posted the initial question. Once again, Bass, you have smacked it right on the fanny. This thread is manifestaion of my hatred of being told that we do something just because "that's the way we alway's do it" Roger Daltrey said of Pete Townsend that he had the most aggravating habit of making an easy thing hard, because Pete wanted to investigate *every* possible* way of doing a thing to arrive at the best way. Regardless of the easy way. I celebrate the easy way, cause I've only got so many marbles in the jar, but along the way I just wanna see if I can learn the why's.

[drklynoon]

Bill, I didn't think of that your probably right on. It's a two cav mold and I'm getting two slightly different weights.

Jack, I seriously doubt a gr will effect my accuracy at 25 yrds especially with the reduced load in shooting in the gun. I was just checking to see what was going on. I do see the merit of weighing rifle bullets. I know that my handguns are more capable of accuracy then me ;). I did get one flier that weighed over a gr more then any of the others and could have caused a flier on paper but I'm not a proffesional shooter so I doubt I woulda noticed.

[Bass Ackward]

The above two post by high standard and btroj are *exactly* why I posted the initial question. Once again, Bass, you have smacked it right on the fanny. This thread is manifestaion of my hatred of being told that we do something just because "that's the way we alway's do it" Roger Daltrey said of Pete Townsend that he had the most aggravating habit of making an easy thing hard, because Pete wanted to investigate *every* possible* way of doing a thing to arrive at the best way. Regardless of the easy way. I celebrate the easy way, cause I've only got so many marbles in the jar, but along the way I just wanna see if I can learn the why's.




I have seen people that advocate larger bullets because the gun wants them. Maybe nothing could be further from the truth. What problem is the larger bullet solving? Alignment in the gun? This can be overrated except for the highest accuracy requirements. Case neck tension? Bullet alignment in the case? Case sizing the bullet down? Bullet exiting prematurely from primer? Pistol primer can solve that.

I find that larger bullets often help load better quality ammunition. Correct the die problem so that you load more concentric ammunition and the larger bullet advantage generally disappears.

Then we get hard bullet advocates. Sizing a hard bullet results in a larger diameter slug. And that slug has spring back. So does their bore require spring back to maintain a seal? Or is it still helping with quality ammunition? Depends doesn't it cause a lot of guys will form opinions on rifling height or stripping from this.

Some say who cares. But knowing what you are solving helps you with the next gun when it does matter why because the old path takes a turn. The only reason for concern for change should be what steps (time) you have to do to correct it. I can't imagine the time required to weigh slugs. I barely have enough now. So I take one time steps like venting to not have to worry about this. So I shoot 3/4" instead of 1/2". I can live with it.

It only matters if it does.

[btroj]

I don't weigh mine as I don't engage in shooting where I think it would matter. I rarely shoot past 100 yards with cast so long range isn't an issue.
I also have shot enough groups with my Marlin 45-70 with cast that meet my needs to say without a doubt that weighing is not required. Non weighed bullets shoot into 1.5 inches or better and that is good enough for me, why waste the time weighing them.
I agree with Hamish, too many here say that we MUST do this or must do that. I don't test hardness, I font weight bullets, and I don't slug barrels. Somehow things keep working out for me. I am either lucky or just happen to have guns that I find friendly to my needs and techniques.

I love that line that Bass throws out there- It only matters if it does. That has to be the best bit of wisdom I have picked up on this forum. I have determined that for me weighing does not matter, so it doesn't. I put it out of my head and go shoot. End of story.

[1Shirt]

Never weighed any blts for handgun, and always considered it a waste of time. Same holds true for big heavy rifle blts from 30 cal on up. Will on occaision weigh some of the lite (125-130 gr) 30 cal gas checks. Think it a waste of time however on any above the 150-160 gr. level.

Do however weigh 22's and 6mm's, and seperate by exact weight in batches throwing back in the pot the heaviest and lightest. Have always had bell curves in weights on these with the peak of the bell on either side being the highest number of blts, and these always seem to be the most accurate. Usually run a batch of 250-300 at a time, and of these, will normally find about 100-125 or so will be dead center on the bell, and those on either side will be counts of 50-60. These I use for serious shooting, the rest on the ends of the curve will be discards and back in the pot.

Once in awhile I will cast a batch of 22 HP's, and these are a pain to cast, and a pain to weigh. However, have found it worth my time to do so for a batch for hunting p-dogs in K-Hor and 222. Same bell curve shows about the same as non HP'd blts. My limits for a batch of 22 hp's is usually about 150 or less. From those, I will get maybe 45-50 center of the curve, with percentages dropping off on either side, and discarding about 10-15 on both high and low end, or using them as plinkers or bbl warmers.

This subject is one of those to each his own type things. What works for me, I try not to fix!
1Shirt!:coffee:

[dakotashooter2]

You guys that are separating by .1 grain must have really, really good scales.......... Most of consumer grade electronic scales I've seen claim that much margin of error..........

[badbob454]

If i shot competition i would weigh my boolits as i shoot for fun at the range , i feel there are too many variables to make reloading fun, and too many items to sort out... first weight of bullets , weight of powder (each on a scale individually to the .1 of a grain ), case crimp tightness same primer batch bullet seating depth , case volume and weight and then by type ,or make , same powder batch lot no. and same lead lino tin batch and hardness my shed isnt large enough for all these things ... I will , sort cases by make, and use the same lead batch cast from , powder thrown by my rcbs powder measure measured every 10 or so, and keep it 3/4 full as i work it . and use one brand of primer, i use cci throw away wrinkley bullets , and put a crimp on everything i shoot . this gets me there where i want to shoot accurate enough . once i hit a golfball 4 out of 5 times from 20 feet to 30 to 50 to 70 and then to around 100feet with a 4" 38 revolver , luck or good load ? couldnt tell you ... any how , load as you see fit , and enjoy

[Huntducks]

I don't weigh mine as I don't engage in shooting where I think it would matter. I rarely shoot past 100 yards with cast so long range isn't an issue.
I also have shot enough groups with my Marlin 45-70 with cast that meet my needs to say without a doubt that weighing is not required. Non weighed bullets shoot into 1.5 inches or better and that is good enough for me, why waste the time weighing them.
I agree with Hamish, too many here say that we MUST do this or must do that. I don't test hardness, I font weight bullets, and I don't slug barrels. Somehow things keep working out for me. I am either lucky or just happen to have guns that I find friendly to my needs and techniques.

I love that line that Bass throws out there- It only matters if it does. That has to be the best bit of wisdom I have picked up on this forum. I have determined that for me weighing does not matter, so it doesn't. I put it out of my head and go shoot. End of story.

Same here I must be really screwed up not weighting them I enjoy casting boolits not having a 2nd job and nothing I shoot knows the diff.

If anyone is getting boolits 20-30grs a part you need a refresher course in casting 101 or buy them.

Do you guys weight them before you size and lube?

[felix]

Yes, I weigh before any other operation because I am looking for micro air holes within the boolits only. Most gas check lots I have gotten from the Gator have been have been on the nose, when checking individual checks most especially. Also, I tailor the lube for the Bench Gun, so there is no problem there. Often I do pan lubing on the 22's, or did when designing lube formulas. ... felix

[dverna]

I did a sampling of store bought - here are my results for 20 randomly selected bullets of each:

45 cal bullets:
Dardas 200 gr cast - came in 198.9 +/- .8 gr
Master Cast 200 gr cast - came in 200.1 +/- .8 gr
Zero 230 gr FMJ - came in 229.9 +/- .3 gr

38 and 9mm:
Dardas 148 gr cast - came in 145.5 +/- 1.2 gr
Master Cast 130 gr cast - came in 130.6 +/- 1.6 gr
Precision 122 gr cast - came in 120.8 +/- 1.1 gr
Hornady 148 g Swaged - came in 148.1 +/- .2 gr.

The intended use will determine just how anal you wish to be. At 7-10 yards almost anything that look good will shoot OK for 98% of us. When I shot Bullseye, I weighed the 50 yard bullets for match use to +/- .2 gr.

Don

[Hamish]

This has been a great thread, and one of the key points IMHO is that once you get your pot clean and whatever it is you throw in the post to *homogenize* it would seem that the bell curve is pretty centered. That said, in the opening batch of boolits that got this started off I did finally see one boolit about 5 grains heavy and I am still wondering why. Nomally I "Berry Pick, (berm feeder) and this time around I am trying to take all my "Berries" and mix a load of WW and roof vent hat together. Still the entire run of about 125 stayed within 5 grains and rejected about 25 that ran outside of one grain variance. Many of the rejects were only outside of that one grain by 2 or 3 tenths.

A "Simpler, Gentler" truth seems to be that unless you are a BR or a Creedmoore guy, stuff 'em and light 'em up. My wish is that any new person stumbling across this thread will come away a little bit more confident that the "Aligning of the Planets" is not as big a problem as I first thought when I got serious about more than one boolit in one barrel.

And oh, BTW, I sincerely hope that from now on that quote looks like this:

It only matters if it does. TM-BA

Cause it does matter. From the top down, with only a little hiccup now and then, this has been one fine bunch.

(I'm gonna shut up now, I'm starting to sound like SWMBO.)

I hope there's more secrets of the uniberse comin' down de pipe fella's. Post away!

@(:^]#>:::

[hydraulic]

I shoot long range BPCR .45-70. My RCBS 530 gr. mould throws wheelweights 528 to 536 grs. I sort in two piles: 531 +- 1 gr. and 534 +- 1gr. I load all my cartridges out of one of the piles or the other for each match, and the light and heavies I throw together and use for practice at home. Truthfully, I can't tell the difference in the groups I get; usually 2 to 2 1/2 minutes of angle, with the match or practice bullets. I don't shoot all that well, I'm 73 and shoot over cross sticks,sitting, but I managed to shoot in the upper 1/3 of the 631 shooters at Quigley last year, and I plan on winning it this year. (grin).