a 60,000 psi 444 Marlin ?

[Bullshop]

I recently picked up a P-14 Enfield re-barreled to 444 Marlin. I am pondering what to expect from it as to top end loads.
Considering that the 45/70 is treated as three different cartridges in the loading books I am looking at the 444 in the same light.
Basically the 45/70 has three load levels and to use round numbers for simplicity lets say they are 20,000 psi (trapdoor) 40,000 psi (marlin) and 60,000 psi Ruger #1 and Siamese Mauser)
I would think the the Enfield 14 or 17 action would be classed with the latter of the three 45/70s in the 60,000 psi range.
Since all published data for the 444 uses the Marlin for a test gun or a universal receiver with marlin pressure for cut off I feel I have a lot of room left for increased velocity over published data.
I will do what I will do but still I would like to hear other opinions.

[MtGun44]

As long as you can be dead certain that they won't somehow find their way into a
Marlin lever gun someday . . . . . . . . .

Always scares me a bit to make loads hotter than the weakest gun around can safely
handle. Of course, I have some 7x57 loads that better not get into my 1902 Rolling
Block, so I am at some risk myself. Gotta we aware when we have ammo that will
chamber but may be unsafe.

Bill

[JeffinNZ]

My only concern would be, is the brass up to the job? Are the cases for lower yeild rounds tailored to those pressures? Is the web heavy enough etc?

[Whistler]

I've run some 45,000 PSI loads through my .444 Marlin BFR from Magnum Research. You can barely keep it in your hands when in a bench rest position, you have to stand up and keep a firm grip. With that said, the primers did show some tendency to flattening, but were in no way filling out the pocket. Extraction from the chambers were easy and showed no resistance there.

This was using different combinations of the Lee 310gn, the RCBS 240 SIL (actually 260gn) with Vihtavuori N110 and N130 powders in Remington brass with CCI Large Rifle Magnum primers.
Using slow powders like N130 is definitely an advantage as long as you have enough case volume, however with 46-50gn N130 you've already got a compressed load of 100-115% using most 240-310gn boolits. When using faster powders, the pressures rise fast!

[Bullshop]

In response to MTGun and JeffinNZ I must once again point to the 45/70.
We have factory ammo for the 45/70 that will destroy a trapdoor.
Even though factory ammo is low yield the brass will handle the third class loads.
I have however seen 45/70 lever mag ammo with small primer pockets.
I think that is used more as an ID for liability situations than for increased safety.
The boxes of ammo with the small primer pockets with stat that it is not to be used in certain guns so if there is an issue it can be identified.
Anyway points taken and addressed.
I think as was said that case volume will be a deciding factor.
Too bad too because I have about an inch and a half of magazine length thats not being used. I need some streached 444 brass.

[fireball168]

I need some streached 444 brass.

I believe I can assist you in that endeavor.

[Bullshop]

What ya got ?

[fireball168]

9.3x74R is the easiest, might not even need to trim the OD of the rim depending on how they opened your bolt face up.

Had a customer who felt his 444 Marlin brass was the "weakest link" in his Encore setup, used Hornady brass - although his rim recess was tight enough had to turn a bit off the OD. Just set the case up in a Wilson case holder and chucked it up in the lathe.

Graf's has it in stock at an attractive price.

Probably could find a necker/throater around somewhere to lengthen the chamber too.....

[garym1a2]

I would take it easy, a P14 is near 100 years old.

[DIRT Farmer]

To solve the possibility of a frag round in the trap door or rolling blocl any Mauser leval loads are loaded with Jacketed. I do not want to find one of the filler up and strike it off loads in the wrong gun. Any way at my age and the avatible varmits around here, 380 grains and 1200 fps seems to be enough.

[nanuk]

Bullshop, seeings as you will probably want to open the chamber length some, you might just "Open" the rim recess at the same time, just enough to accomodate the slightly larger rim....

Just a thought, as I think it is better to make "One" mod to a gun, than to make "Hunerts" of mods to brass

[Bullshop]

Yes I agree with that. The chamber lengthening would be the biggest obstacle.

[Bret4207]

I can see it now- "INTRODUCING THE BIGGEST, BADDEST BEAR BOMBER EVER!!!!! THE 4444444 BULLSHOP SUPER MAGNUM TACTICAL ELITE BEAR BLASTER!!!!!

[lylejb]

Just a thought,

If your considering reaming the chamber and opening the bolt face anyway, How about a win mag case necked up to 44?

Something like a 338 win mag necked up to 44.

You would have greater case volume, win mag brass is easier / more common than 444 marlin, and you wouldn't have to worry about someone putting in the wrong or weak gun, because it wouldn't fit.

But before I modified anything, I would check what twist rate the barrel has. I recall something about some 444's having an odd twist rate, that limited what boolits could be used. I don't know if that applies to your barrel or not.

Just some thoughts.

[Bullshop]

Bret are you mocking me? Besides you left out one 4 and its Bear Basher not Bear Blaster

[swheeler]

Just a thought,

If your considering reaming the chamber and opening the bolt face anyway, How about a win mag case necked up to 44?

Something like a 338 win mag necked up to 44.

You would have greater case volume, win mag brass is easier / more common than 444 marlin, and you wouldn't have to worry about someone putting in the wrong or weak gun, because it wouldn't fit.

But before I modified anything, I would check what twist rate the barrel has. I recall something about some 444's having an odd twist rate, that limited what boolits could be used. I don't know if that applies to your barrel or not.

Just some thoughts.

The P14 bolt face will NOT need to be opened up, it was made for the .540 rim of the 303 British, both 9.3x74R and 444 are smaller dia. rims, .526 and .514. I would be more concerned with controlled feeding issues when using formed 9.3x74R brass because of the nearly .010" thinner rim, may require extractor work to feed correctly, then magazine box will have to be lengthened for the .700" longer case. As far as the action it is plenty strong for 60K psi as long as it is in good working order, weakest area will be at the extractor cut in the square beech face, but a good strong action/system anyways, stronger than a 1917 coned breech system.

I would get several types of brass and section them, or maybe just weigh them, pick a brand thickest in the web area and use that brass. Start working up loads watching for excessive expansion/ loose primer pockets, a lot depends on the chamber dimensions and if the extractor groove was cut deeper than needed. The weak link is the brass in every gun and if doing this I would moniter it very closely.

[Larry Gibson]

Putting the action modification issues aside I think 60,000 psi (not to be confused with CUP) is very reasonable assuming the action is in good condition (can't picture Bullshop using one that wasn't). Keep in mind also that that action was readily adopted to the '06 which also can run at 60,000 psi (again not confused with the older psi/CUP measurement). Given my experience with the 45-70 in a Siamese Mauser taking it to a 4th level (400 gr Barnes original at 2300 fps with a measured 62,000 psi) I do believe Bullshop would have to work really hard to achieve 60,000 psi. I base this on the limited case capacity and low expansion ratio of the .444 cartridge. Even with 300 - 350 gr bullets a much faster burning powder would have to be used than I think Bullshop would want to use to achieve anywhere near that psi. With RL7 upwards of Varget or 4064 case capacity will be the issue with most bullets, especially cast ones.

BTW; some years back a friend had a very nice P14 and I have a Ross M10, both .303s of course. Being stronger actions than the SMLE's we decided to see what the .303 was really capable of. Using fire formed NS'd R-P cases, H4895 and Horanady .312 150 gr SPs we worked carefully up to over 2850 fps in his P14 and 3020 fps in the 30" barreled M10. We did not have a hint of over pressure in either rifle. Case capacity of the .303 is very similar to the 7.65 Argentine and I found the loads in the 29"+ barrel of the M1909 Argentine to be almost identical to the M10 Ross. Test of the M1909 loads shows the psi's to run right up to 60,000 psi(M43). Just throwing this out for information is all.

Larry Gibson

[swheeler]

Dan I think a good point can be made by Winchester's decision to manufacture +P brass for the 257 Roberts when introducing a +P loading, original industry pressure limit of 45K Cupric units of pressure(not to be confused with psi) +P limit 50K cup. " Winchester introduced a +P 257 Roberts loading for bolt action rifles, using a case with thicker walls." I do not think Winchester would have made the thicker +P brass unless they felt it was indeed needed, they just don't do things like that unless deemed necessary, liability issue.

Now I've only owned one 444, a super 14 TC 44 mag that I sent out to Ohio in 1980-81, JD sent me back handful of hand cannon, never felt undergunned with a 240 or 265 Hornady and a case full of H335, I would guess a 250-300 gr cast bullet in a rifle would be MO Better.

[Bret4207]

Bret are you mocking me? Besides you left out one 4 and its Bear Basher not Bear Blaster

Mocking? Nope. Hoping to tickle yer funny bone? Yup!:-P