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RDub
04-06-2011, 01:02 AM
Hello

Thought you guys might find this interesting.. I originally posted this over at the S&W Reloading Forum.
Very curious to see what you guys think..

Last year I did a small expose on .38 Special 158gr Lead RN factory loads, dealing with what it would take, in charge weight, to duplicate the Remington UMC 158gr Lead RN factory load with a cast bullet of the same weight (Lyman #358311 sized .358”) with some of the more popular powders.
The Remington factory load, of a 158gr Lead RN; chronographed over my Oehler Mod 33 at 770 fps with a 4” S&W 686.
You can find that post here.

http://smith-wessonforum.com/reloading/124471-38-special-factory-load-duplication.html

My ultimate goal here is to demonstrate that Remington is using an extraordinary propellant in their UMC factory load, not easily duplicated with what is available to us.

This year I wanted to expand this effort a bit and do some things a little different.
Instead of using a cast bullet, since not everyone casts, I wanted to use a bullet that is more similar to the Remington bullet, that being a swaged lead bullet, and one that is readily available to everyone. For this I chose the Speer Lead 158gr RN.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/LoadedSpeer158gr.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/Speer158grLRN.jpg


I have also accumulated more powders to test. A list of these and the recommended max loads for each powder with 158gr lead bullets can be seen here;

AA#2……….4.0
AA#5……….5.9
RS ZIP……...4.2
Bullseye…….3.6
Red Dot……..3.9
Power Pistol…5.4
Unique………4.7
Titegroup……3.9
W-231………4.3
HP-38……….4.3
Universal……4.5
700-X……….3.7
SR 7625…….4.5
SR 4756…….5.3

N-320………4.6
Herco……….4.5

In addition I threw in two more brands of factory ammo just for comparison;
Federal (American Eagle) 158gr Lead RN, and the old classic Winchester 158gr RN Lubaloy.
And just because I had some, (target #4) I threw in some Remington 200gr LRN 38 Special factory loads shot out of a 6½” barrel. Even that load has a very respectable velocity.
http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/Rem-Fed-Win38.jpg

Here is how the American Eagle and Winchester rounds break down; The breakdown of the Rem load was done in last year’s post and can be seen in the link above.

The Federal American Eagle round is loaded with a 158gr lead RN bullet and is charged with 3.4-3.5 grs of something that looks very much like Bullseye.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/Fed34grspowder.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/Fedbulletweight.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/Fedpowdersample.jpg

The Winchester round, the old classic 158gr Lubaloy RN is loaded with a copper plated lead RN bullet. This bullet weighed 158.3 grs.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/Winbulletweight1.jpg

and is charged with a silvery flattened ball powder weighing 3.8 grs.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/Win38grspowder.jpg

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/Winpowdersample.jpg

So, after months of nasty southern Oregon weather, I finally got a window of ‘decent’ weather and went out and shot. Except for an occasional sleet shower, the sun was shining. Temp was in the high 30’s °F and the wind was gusting fairly well making shooting fine groups difficult at best.

After an afternoon of shooting, here is the target. Conditions are noted top right.
I’m shooting at 25 yards.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/4-2-11Edited.jpg

So right off the bat I’m noticing some interesting things…

Notice that the Remington factory load, in an ambient temperature of 38°F clocked 763 fps; only a few fps slower than last years reading at 65°F ambient.

http://i48.photobucket.com/albums/f218/rafswede/38%20Factory%20Duplication/38facdup1.jpg


And notice how slower the other two factory loads are at this temperature. It could be that Fed and Win load their ammo a bit slower... Have to wait and see.
Also notice the velocities of Bullseye, 700-X, Unique, Power Pistol, 231, and SR7625, as compared to last year. The well established ‘factory duplication load’ of 3.5 grs of Bullseye wouldn’t have come close to any factory load, as it is, 3.7grs didn’t make it.
When I shot the SR7625 and the SR4756 test loads, (targets 20 and 21), I was wondering if I neglected to put powder in the case before seating a bullet.. the report was extremely light. I noticed a lot of unburned powder in the cases.

So what I’m gathering from this is, most of the powders tested are somewhat to extremely temperature sensitive. Maybe even the Fed and Win factory loads are not at their best at 38°F.. I’ll have to wait.. and see when the weather here gets warmer and re-shoot this series.

Somewhat interesting also is the results with N-320. Note the very high extreme spread yet it produced an acceptable group.. one of the best of the day.
I’m also betting, that when I shoot again in warmer weather the groups and extreme spreads will tighten up and velocities will be higher. Again I’ll have to wait and see.

Anyway, that’s all I have for now. I’ll probably re-shoot this series May-June.

bobthenailer
04-06-2011, 08:58 AM
although i allways use 357 cases in a 357 reguardless of the load except in 8 shot full moon clips for my 2-627s, when used in matches. Try 3.5 gr of Bullesey or 4.6 gr of Universal clays in 38 special cases . either should group around 1 1/2 or better at 25 yards
in 357 cases try 4.0 of BE or 4.5 gr Tightgroup. have shot 1 1/2 inch at 50 yards with a scope. these loads have shot extreemely well from perhaps 10 or more 357 mags over the years .

fecmech
04-06-2011, 10:33 AM
The Lyman cast bullet handbook lists 4.2/ Bullseye for 880 fps@16200 CUP. I use that load behind the H&G #39 158 RN in my K-38 for everything, but mainly Hunters pistol silhouette. It clocks right at 900 fps and will stay under 2"@50yds all day long. I have probably put over 10-15K of those loads through that gun over the past few years, if the dot's on it when the trigger breaks the bullet hits it!.

lesharris
04-06-2011, 08:43 PM
Did you mention what primers you were using ?

Were you crimping the cases ?

Factory loads have a rolled crimp.

Les.

35remington
04-07-2011, 06:48 PM
It's highly doubtful Remington is using an "extraordinary propellant" given that factories switch powder types and characteristics all the time in their factory loads.

It is likely that Remington has made a great many changes, and will make a great many changes, in the type and brand of propellant used. Whatever they can obtain to get the desired velocity. The powder charge is adjusted per type or brand to get the desired ballistics.

You might find ball powder in the current lot you're shooting, and flake powder in another lot. Happens all the time. Counting on the factory to use the exact same powder, lot after lot, year after year, is doubtful reasoning.

rintinglen
04-07-2011, 10:57 PM
One other point to consider, The pressure for most of these loads as listed in the 4th edition CastBullet Handbook runs well below the SAAMI 18,000 limit-12% or more. If Remington is redlining their load right at the max, they will always have a bit more velocity, since powder type being relatively equal, more powder gives more pressure, which gives more velocity. Speer lists 4.2 grains of Bullseye as max for their 158 grain bullits in their #12 manual, my Hornady manual lists 3.6 for lead--but 4.1Bullseye for a 158 grain JHP? Still very interesting.

RDub
04-08-2011, 01:42 AM
It's highly doubtful Remington is using an "extraordinary propellant" given that factories switch powder types and characteristics all the time in their factory loads.

It is likely that Remington has made a great many changes, and will make a great many changes, in the type and brand of propellant used. Whatever they can obtain to get the desired velocity. The powder charge is adjusted per type or brand to get the desired ballistics.

You might find ball powder in the current lot you're shooting, and flake powder in another lot. Happens all the time. Counting on the factory to use the exact same powder, lot after lot, year after year, is doubtful reasoning.

One other point to consider, The pressure for most of these loads as listed in the 4th edition CastBullet Handbook runs well below the SAAMI 18,000 limit-12% or more. If Remington is redlining their load right at the max, they will always have a bit more velocity, since powder type being relatively equal, more powder gives more pressure, which gives more velocity. Speer lists 4.2 grains of Bullseye as max for their 158 grain bullits in their #12 manual, my Hornady manual lists 3.6 for lead--but 4.1Bullseye for a 158 grain JHP? Still very interesting.

Hiya

All very true.. I was just commenting on the fact that a mere 4.0 grs of 'something' (Remington's factory load) can deliver that much velocity on a cold day.. where most of everything I shot did'nt even come close.. including two other comperable factory loads. I don't believe 4.0 grs of anything available to us could do that... Maybe 4.1 grs of Bullseye could.. But, Speer #14 says 3.5grs is Max for this same bullet.. What do we believe??

I haven't picked up a copy of Lyman's 4th edition.. I should. I'm behind a couple..

I'm just waiting for warmer weather to see what will change..

So many questions can be answered if WE had an accurate and reliable way to measure pressure..

RDub
04-08-2011, 01:49 AM
Did you mention what primers you were using ?

Were you crimping the cases ?

Factory loads have a rolled crimp.

Les.

Winchester primers and cases (noted on upper right hand corner of target):wink:
Roll crimp from RCBS seating die

w30wcf
04-08-2011, 09:02 AM
RDub,
Thank you for the interesting report.:D I will add your data to my a 38 Special file.

The powder in the Western ammunition looks like old Western 230-P powder.
I shot a few pounds of that away in a .45 thirty years or so ago. I worked very well in the 45. I did not have a 38 at the time.

A couple of years ago I went down the path of replicating the old 38-44 cartridge.
Factory specimens I had contained 7.5 grs of a disc type powder. I tested several different powders at 7.5 grs and found that HS-6 was almost "spot on" for a duplication load (1,133 vs 1,115 f.p.s.) and shot very well.

Keep up the good work.

w30wcf

scrapcan
04-08-2011, 10:14 AM
I too think this is an intersting thread. If someone has Speer Volume 8 or 9 could you *** the loadings from it? I have been trying to get my hands old copies of both volumes for the library, but keep just missing out.

olafhardt
04-08-2011, 04:29 PM
Several years ago I was at Arkansas gun show next to some guys from Remington. One of them said he was over the ammo loading at Lonoke AR. He said he used a Ton of Bullseye a day and 7(?) Ton of. 4350. I have read that "Bullseye " was used with suffixes for powders sold to factories fwiw.

:Fire::redneck:

Charlie Two Tracks
04-08-2011, 06:48 PM
I have a Speer #8 and it has 3.5 grains of Bullseye producing a muzzle velocity of 880 using a .358 diameter 158 gr. SPEER SWC or RN. out of a S&W K-38 6" barrel.
The Lyman 43rd edition has: 158 gr. 358156 or 358311 at 3.5 gr. of Bullseye with a velocity of 850 fps. The above are the max. loads.

9.3X62AL
04-08-2011, 07:16 PM
Several years ago I was at Arkansas gun show next to some guys from Remington. One of them said he was over the ammo loading at Lonoke AR. He said he used a Ton of Bullseye a day and 7(?) Ton of. 4350. I have read that "Bullseye " was used with suffixes for powders sold to factories fwiw.

:Fire::redneck:

Welcome to the asylum. Olaf! The use of Bullseye by an ammo factory for handgun fuel is not a real surprising read. IMR-4350 has a lot of rifle utility, too.

I've done some factory load duplicating research over the years, and it's quite a bit of work if done thoroughly. I appreciate the effort, RDub.

Leadmelter
04-08-2011, 07:22 PM
Manleyjt
I have both volumes of the Speer Manuals. What info are you seeking from them?

Gerry

fecmech
04-08-2011, 07:58 PM
I have a Speer #8 and it has 3.5 grains of Bullseye producing a muzzle velocity of 880 using a .358 diameter 158 gr. SPEER SWC or RN. out of a S&W K-38 6" barrel.
The Lyman 43rd edition has: 158 gr. 358156 or 358311 at 3.5 gr. of Bullseye with a velocity of 850 fps. The above are the max. loads.

And then you have the Lyman Cast Bullet Handbook (Third Ed.) that lists 4.0/BE/358156 for 858 FPS and 4.2/BE/358311 for 880 fps. Personally I've never seen 3.5 of BE with a 158 ever break 800 fps in any gun I've ever tried. My standard load as I've said is 4.2/BE and that clocks 900 fps in a 6" K38 and within 20 fps of that in a 6" gp100. Also within the past year or so I was gifted with a number of 1 lb. cans of BE going back over the past 60 years and in different time periods. I was curious and chrono'd all the cans with my standard load and with the exception of 1 container from the 70's @ 842 fps, the rest going back to the 50's were within 20 fps of a new keg I bought just before getting the cans. The oldest can(from the 50's) was 1 fps different from my new keg for 10 shot avg, 895 FPS vs 896 fps!