hourglass shaped boolits with extreme leading

[nouseforaname1246]

OK ive searched and searched but i cant seem to find anything on this phenomonon. I have a LEE 6 CAV TL401-175SWC mould that is dropping hourglass shaped boolits. By this i mean the base is measuring .404, the middle tumble lube section is measuring .400 and the front driving band is measuring .403. All six cavities are dropping this way and otherwise the boolits are perfect, nice sharp edges no wrinkles. I cast em at a fairly consistant 710* +- 10-15* with wheelweight alloy and aircool them to roughly 12 bhn.
i lubed them with 45 45 10, push through sized them to .402, lubed again and loaded them in .40s+w at around 1000 fps. Went out shot 20 and got the most ridiculous amount of leading i have ever seen. It litterally looked like somone spackeled lead inside the barrels down the whole length.(shot 10 out of each of my .40s which slug at .401 and .4005) leading was the same in both barrels.
so i went back and loaded 20 more, this time loading them as cast with 2 coats of TL. Same results. Ive played with powder loads taking them down to 10% under the starting load, played with the oal and tried more or less lube. still leading like it the cool thing to do.
So ive concluded it has somthing to do with the weird hourglass shape.
Do you guys have any suggestions on what to do about this?
sorry for the long post, just trying to get all the info in there :)

[runfiverun]

send it back.

[462]

Yep, return it, and make the company you bought it from reimburse you for the postage.

[RobS]

Leading the barrel..............There is also the possibility that your boolits were still fairly soft and the case swaged down on the boolit resulting in an undersized situation. It may also be something in the reloading process too that is swaging down the slug. Pull a dummy round and see if the diameter is what you started with before loading.

Never the less the drive bands should all be the same or very close in diameter and at .003-.004 diameter off I would also send the mold back even if there are other issues.

[leftiye]

Or, you're csting in a hot mold and the center part is receeding from the cavity walls. Ie., the boolit is not cooling fast enough.

[nouseforaname1246]

So its a faulty mould? I was initally thinking the same thing but all 6 cavities drop them exactly the same so im not too sure about that. Is there mabe somthing im doing wrong while casting that could cause this?

[nouseforaname1246]

Hah beat me to it. I thought the boolits would frost if the mould was too hot. Am i right?

[nouseforaname1246]

IIll pull some boolits when i get home tonight to check them.

[williamwaco]

Before you do anything drastic, try them in another gun. It doesn't happen often but occasionally I find a bullet/gun combination that leads like crazy. The exact same loads work fine in a different gun. ( Oops, scratch that, you have already done it.)

Also try a different cast bullet in your same guns and see if it does the same thing.

Hour glass bullets: I have three Lee six cavity and two Lee two cavity bullet molds. All produce bullets with the tumble lube bands less in diameter than the front and rear bands "Hour glass". In fact, they are enough smaller that the difference is visible. They are all very accurate and produce very little leading - even in my .357 mag.

Difference in front and rear band: You only mention a difference of .001 between these two bands. I expect If you measure around the circumfrence of the bullet, you will find them to be out of round by that much.

I have owned many molds over the years, most of them showed differences of as much as .0025 between the front band and the middle and rear bands. I can't quote numbers because I didn't record them. I just remember that it is to be expected. ( That is what sizing dies are for. )

I have owned many molds by Lyman, Lee and Saeco, and one each by H&G, and Ballisti-cast. Only the H&G and Ballisti-Cast produce bullets with all the bands exactly the same diameter. I just measured a couple of the Ballisti-Cast and even they are out of round by 0.0005 ( Half a thousandths). Unfortunately, I don't have any unsized bullets from the H&G mold here to measure.

This will get me excoriated here but I would try a smaller sizing die. I don't own a .40 so I have no experience there. Almost all my handguns are 9mm / .38/ .357 caliber. All the experts recommend bullets of .358 and sometimes as large as .360 for the .38/357. Bullets that large will turn all my 35's barrels ( 8 of them ) into something resembling sewer pipes. I use .356 in the 9mms and .356 to .357 in the .38 special and .357 magnum.

I get virtually no leading even with .356 bullets in the .38 Special and .357 magnum.

By "virtually no leading" I mean that after 100 rounds you can see some faint streaks in the first inch of the bore. The rest of the bore will shine like a mirror. No more than three or four passes with a brass brush will remove it all.

I don't think there is anything wrong with your mold.

Good luck.

PS: Consider ditching the wax. There is no better handgun bullet lube available on ths planet than straight LLA cut with 25 to 50% Mineral Spirits ( Lighter fluid ) ( the amount of mineral spirits is not important because it is going to evaporate when the lube is drying.)

[nouseforaname1246]

Oh really? Thats good to know. Ive never owned any tl moulds before. So assuming the hourglass shape isnt to blame for the leading, what else could be causing the leading? Im going to pull some boolits to see if they are being swaged during reloading. Mabe they are too soft? They are around 12 bhn which to me seems reasonable for a pistol boolit. Should i try heat treating them?

[462]

I think it was Charlie Two Tracks who experienced a Lee mould that dropped "hourglass" boolits. Drop him a PM.

[RobS]

Once you find out if the pulled boolits are the right diameter or not then you'll be able to explore what you want to do next. If the boolits are not swaged down then looking into the mold/boolit issues of having small middle drive bands would be the next route if it were me and I would not be happy with the mold you currently have.

If they are being swaged down then there are really two options a person can try; one, is to use harder boolits to resist the swaging or two, you'll need a case expander .001-.002 under the desired boolit diameter. The mold/boolits you have may work dispite the small middle drive bands however it is not optimal.

[Gohon]

Most likely there is nothing wrong with your mold. I've experienced the same thing with the Lee six cavity mold, especially the larger calibers which seem to require a higher temperature to operate correctly. The Lee six cavity is slower to get an even temperature across the length of the mold than a two banger resulting in cold spots. Start with just the outer most cavity and cast until good bullets are dropping from that single cavity. Then add the next cavity to the filling operation. Once both the first and second cavity are dropping good then add the third and so on. Eventually you will have a even temperature throughout the mold and all six cavities will be dropping good casts.

[nouseforaname1246]

well i heat it up on a hot plate while the lead melts so i dont think there are any cold spots

[nouseforaname1246]

well on a positive note i recovered several boolits worth of lead from the inside of the barrels hahaha

[nouseforaname1246]

ok so i finally got home and pulled some boolits. they were indeed being swagged down to .3995. even the fat as cast boolits that started out as .404. i went back and got out the hardness tester, the boolits are coming in at a solid 12 bhn. so im going to heat treat them and see if that helps.

[a.squibload]

well on a positive note i recovered several boolits worth of lead from the inside of the barrels hahaha

Start a new post in Lead and Lead Alloys, maybe call it "Groove mining"...:kidding:

[nouseforaname1246]

debating on getting an m die for 40 now...

[Bret4207]

I think you'll be much happier with an M die and maybe a different seater. HT or not, lead alloys are relatively soft. Depending on the boolit to open the case instead of the expander is the wrong way to go about his IMO. I would also look at my pouring style re your hourglass boolits. Try holding the mould so the stream hit off center of the sprue hole. If the air can;t escape it's possible that's causing at least some of your hourglass shape. Bhn alone will not solve you problem.

I would try to get my boolits at least at +.001 over groove diameter. I would also consider that the Mule Snot lube might be failing you at some point. It's not the best lube there is, it's not terrible, but it has limits. That would be one of the later things to look at after you get you size issue fixed.

Undersized, overly hard boolits with poor lube....that's a perfect recipe for leading.

[excess650]

I don't think there is anything wrong with your mold or casting technique. If the boolits are being swaged down from .402" to .3995" by seating them, the cases aren't expanded enough or the boolits are too soft. Regardless, the boolit needs to be larger than groove diameter prior to starting its journey down the bore or else you will be rewarded with leading due to gas cutting.

[Iron Mike Golf]

This mold make bevel base boolits, right? I don't have the mold, but looking at pics of the mold at various sellers, it look bevel based to me.

+1 on the M die, too.

Maybe between the bevel base and the case swaging you are getting the leading problem.

[xr650]

Are you using a Lee Factory Crimp Die? The FCD swages my .40 boolits.
I started using a Lee Crimp Die. It doesn't have the carbide size ring and works well on my .40's.

[Doby45]

The 40cal is a different animal all to itself. What you have learned loading other calibers you can for all intents and purposes throw out the window.

You can get leading on the 40cal even when you do it perfectly.

Lose the TL boolit first and foremost. You can still tumble lube a traditional lube groove boolit if you insist upon tumble lubing. TL bands have a tendency to be crushed while being seated in the brass.

Get a .401 M-die, either Lyman or custom made powder through as some of us have done.

I would say get a quality lube such as Carnuba Red, BAC or Felix: but to each their own when it comes to lubes.

You also did not state which powder you are using. Some powders do not do that well with the 40 due to their burn rates and how the powder "launches" the boolit.

[nouseforaname1246]

ordered a m die last night, should be here in a little over a week. i have been using power pistol and unique. no im not using the FCD. im using the lee powder through expanding die at the moment, but it dosnt expand the case itself like the m die does, only the mouth. i think thats where my problem is. im going to try everything i can to make this mould work, adapt and overcome. your definately right about the 40 being a diferent animal, i feel like everything ive learned through reloading other calibers isnt helping here.

[RobS]

Higher pressures with both the 40 S&W and the 9mm add to much of the problems. You are in magnum territory in relation to top end loads. Both of these cartridges top out at SAAMI specs of 35,000 PSI.

357 magnum is at 35,000 psi
41 mag is at 36,000 psi
44 mag is at 36,000 psi

Also the cases are much shorter with the 9mm and 40 S&W which I belive adds to more issues with case swage down on the boolits. Case walls thicken toward the head of the brass. The shorter cases in particular doesn't take very long of a boolit to start reaching this part of the case which creates more stresses on the boolits vs the longer cartriges of the 357, 41, & 44 magnums.

If you plan on running softer boolits then you'll need that expander die otherwise you need a harder boolit to counter case swage down. Whether you believe one way or another it doesn't matter, the diameter of the boolit, as you've found out, needs to be as intended once it leaves the loaded case and makes way into the barrel. Boolit fit is king and then everything else comes into play.

[nouseforaname1246]

heat treated some boolits this morning and just loaded a few dummy rounds and pulled them, no more swaging :D they are coming in at 18 bhn now. ill load some up and test them out tomorrow and post the results.