conical behavier

[walt53]

I have read many times about conicals and there down range energy and accurcy.
Then at the end they'll add, but if you hit a rib or other bone the said conical well
make a 90 degree turn on impact.I've also read where one is advised to shoot
a PRB BEHIND the shoulder and a conical in the shoulder.So what do you hunters
who have a fair amount of experience with CONICALS have to say about this.
ALL and every ones input and comments would be appreciated.
thanks. walt

[elk hunter]

Walt,

While it's not a world of experience, between the wife and I we've taken at least six elk with 400 grain, 50 caliber conicals ahead of 100 to 120 grains of Goex 2f. All seemed to give straight line penetration from various angles with complete penetration. A couple of years ago the wife shot a medium size cow at 60 yards broadside breaking the near side large upper front leg bone, the bullet went through the heart and out the far side. I'll admit I haven't looked to see if the bullets deflected in some manner, but the result was always the same, dead elk! Think back to the late 1870's to the early 1880's, how many Bison fell to medium to large conical bullets driven by black powder?

Best advise I've got is to try them, conicals that is, I think you'll find they work quite well.

[NickSS]

I have killed several deer and elk with both round ball and conicals of verious kinds and the results have all been the same dead animal. The only animal that I had noticable deflection with a conical bullet was a white tail I shot with a minni ball from a 58 cal rifled musket. It was a 500 gr minni pushed by 60 gr of FFG the slug broke the front right shoulder of the deer and penetrated into the lungs and turned aft and headed down through the diaphram and guts and I found it when I was taking the hide off it was just under the skin of the rear right ham without bulging the skin. The minni ball as near as I could determine still weighed nearly 500 gr but it was really defrormed not mushroomed but flattened and twisted all together. The deed dropped in its tracks and was dead when I got to it. Range was about 60 paces.

[Hellgate]

I have yet to recover a minie from the two deer and one elk. All 3 went STRAIGHT through without deflection. The elk was broadside through both shoulder blades & spine, broadside doe, and quartering doe into left shoulder and out the right ham (diagonal full length of deer). In all 3 cases hardly any meat ruined.

[skullmount]

Never had 1 turn the corner as you described

For a Whitetail, behind the shoulder, a little higher shot placement than most. They bleed out well.
I have only hunted 2 or 3 times with a CF in the last 10 to 12 years, the rest of the time it has been with a ML with conicals. Most have been taken with a White .410 with a 400 grainer. Have never recovered one of those bullets, not sure I need too...............I did have a custom mold (.410) from Mountain Molds that cast a 280 grainer with a 50 % meplat, only recovered 1 of those.

Thru the boiler room and DOT [smilie=w:

I also have a .350 that I have taken a whitetail with at about 70 yards, (280 grainer Steve Brooks mould)

[firefly1957]

I think the only time you might have the trouble you describe it at low velocity at high velocity the minie will penetrate well but may turn like a unstable top if forward momentum gets low.

[roverboy]

I agree with everybody else conicals are mean. I've killed 5-6 deer with Hornady 385 gr. Great Plains and 2-3 with Maxi Balls and 1 with Maxi hunters. They've all worked wonders.

[idahoron]

My paper patched 500 S&W bullets plow through in the straight path. I have seen this bullet exit length wise on big bodied mule deer and antelope. I haven't had a chance to take an elk but I am quite sure it will do the job. I have never seen a bullet turn. Ron

[NickSS]

The one I described in my last post was the only one that turned like that. I did shoot a bull elk in the south end and the slug came out the front of the chest. I was shooting a 500 gr bullet from my 45-70 Ruger #3 carbine loaded with 65 gr of FFG. I never found that slug but it left about a one inch exit hole. The bullet was cast from 40-1 alloy.

[walt53]

Well gents i'm afraid i have to agree 100% with you guy's. I think alot i read was
from guy's who either didn't like em or did'nt use em.I haven't shoot anything with em but have played abit with em.And i can tell you i would not like one bit to be the recieving end of one of em.I've tried the 320gr lee's and the 370gr maxi ball
and my TC'S don't like the lee's.The maxi's on the other hand i can cloverleaf as long as my shoulder can stand it at a100yd's.This winter i put to gether a recoil pad to try.One of these day's i hope to shoot more than paper.
thanks again. walt
ps. soon i'm going to be able to play again as our 3ft of snow is melting real fast,
can't wait.I also envey you gents in the lower 48 and ak also,sounds like you have
way to much fun.But fun is what you make it.

[StrawHat]

My rifles seem to like the PRB and that is all I have used in them. A 58 caliber PRB is a good hunting projectile. Will a conical penetrate more? Or turn? I doubt it but never having used one, I can not say with any certainty. The rifling twist of your barrel will have some effect on what shoots well for you.

[Alan]

I don't know about concials in medium bores. If you have a fast enough twist, they should do ok, but generally seem to be hard to load unless you clean between shots. I'm suspicious of the "compromise" twists - they probably work fine for anything up to large deer. The real indictments of conicals I have read have been for LARGE bores, 10-bore and up. Heavy loads w/ round balls aren't fast, and conicals do not reach 1100fps in anything that can be fired comfortably. That makes the trajectory steep even at 75 yards.

The round ball has taken a rap in 50-54 cal because you can drive them FAST, and if cast of pure lead they flatten out nicely. That is wonderful on a ribcage shot on small deer, but can be lacking on game the size of elk.

[Alan]

From shooting .58 and .72 into green sweetgum, casting them from WW and pushing them hard indicates that you don't have to worry about penetration. I wouldn't worry about even the .58 on elk and bear. The .72 takes us into the Next Level entirely.

What I like about PRB's for range work is that with a thick, tight patch, the RB's in a slow twist can be shot and shot and shot, and no wiping is necessary. Generally you will have to polish the muzzle crown to break the sharp edges in order to load a ball/patch combo that is tight enough, and you will need a small enough ball to allow a patch thicker than the often recommended .010" linen. It simply does not hold enough lube.

Alan

[HEAD0001]

My longest shot on a decent sized 5X5 bull was 140 yards. Shot with a 525 grain 50 caliber conical. From a Knight MK-85 with open sights. I would rather not mention powder charge(it was too much). The bull went sick at the hit. Complete pass through. Bull went less than 30 yards, and was lucky to get that far. Shot was behind front shoulder. Broke a rib going in, but missed ribs going out the other side. I would have liked to have found that bullet. But no real need. It did exactly what it was suppose to do. DEAD ELK. Tom.

[frontier gander]

I have read many times about conicals and there down range energy and accurcy.
Then at the end they'll add, but if you hit a rib or other bone the said conical well
make a 90 degree turn on impact.I've also read where one is advised to shoot
a PRB BEHIND the shoulder and a conical in the shoulder.So what do you hunters
who have a fair amount of experience with CONICALS have to say about this.
ALL and every ones input and comments would be appreciated.
thanks. walt

A round ball would have more of a tendency to take wild turns if it struck a bone. Simply due to the lack of energy the ball has by the time it hits the target.

A conical however, especially a heavier 300+ grain conical will carry a ton of energy with it and plow through bone.

Its all going to depend on the design of the conical. Soft lead - light weight *250 grains and under* a large hollow point - high velocity - short distance shot normally = a fragmented bullet and limited penetration.

When shooting lead, i do prefer a non hollow point conical.

[405]

A round ball would have more of a tendency to take wild turns if it struck a bone. Simply due to the lack of energy the ball has by the time it hits the target.

A conical however, especially a heavier 300+ grain conical will carry a ton of energy with it and plow through bone.

Its all going to depend on the design of the conical. Soft lead - light weight *250 grains and under* a large hollow point - high velocity - short distance shot normally = a fragmented bullet and limited penetration.

When shooting lead, i do prefer a non hollow point conical.

frontier gander, YES! My experience agrees with this. Near pure lead projectiles with the impact velocities expected with black powder ballistics... the smaller (less massive), faster, pure lead projectile (roundball) will deform more, deflect more and not penetrate as well as a larger, more massive, slower, pure lead projectile (conical). The only exceptions as you noted are the conicals that are less massive thus faster with the large hollow point or those with large, deep hollow bases like the minies, that tend to act somewhat like roundballs upon impact.

Somehow I think the notion of wildly deflecting conicals started or had a seed in memory (coffee shop tales) shortly after the .223 military Jball ammo test results were circulated publicly(60s-70s)- showing certain circumstances of significant conical spire point bullet deflection and the famous oft quoted "tumbling" effect. I've heard stuff around coffee shops such as, "a bullet (read small caliber, spire point Jbullet) can hit someone in the big toe and end up coming out thru the top of the head". Or on the other hand a more factually based, documented type of "deflection" where a Jbullet with frangible cup core construction and high impact velocity shucks a large segment of the core and jacket along the channel. That large segment deflects at a near 90 deg angle and produces a secondary wound channel which when later described after 10 coffee shop retells goes like, "that bullet took a 90 deg turn".

[frontier gander]

http://www.archive.org/details/TerminalEffectsOfProjectilesFromAntiqueAndModernFi rearmsInOrdnance

[FL-Flinter]

Somehow I think the notion of wildly deflecting conicals started or had a seed in memory (coffee shop tales)

Not so much, at least not for me. Years ago when I started looking at conicals I heard about the deflection issue and when I started asking around, quite a few admitted it - the most respectable came from a Canadian guide who had enough bad experiences with radical deflection to ban the use of certain conicals on his hunts. I put it to the test on the range using both real and simulated (wood dowels) bone and it's very easy to replicate which means it's far from gun/coffee shop rumor/myth. Some are more prone to defection than others especially if the rate of spin is less than desirable.

Round balls are far less prone to deflection even at very low velocities. In rare instances one may see minor deflection but having put hundreds of them through the same tests as the conicals, I've never seen one incident of radical deflection.