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Marlin Junky
12-07-2006, 02:13 PM
I picked up my .35-06 H-R yesterday and was inspecting it last night. The first thing I noticed was the extra, extra long throat that reminds me of the ol' Weatherby freeboring. I'm afraid I'm going to have trouble getting this thing to shoot cast boolits well. I chambered a dummy round loaded with SAECO 352 seated to the rear driving band below the lube groove and there was no boolit/rifling contact whatsoever. Has anyone shot this rifle with any kind of ammo yet?

On the plus side, the SB2 has a very smooth trigger! It's little hard for my tastes but this is the first gun I've owned in a long time that will go to the range right out of the box without a trigger job.

MJ

NVcurmudgeon
12-07-2006, 03:39 PM
Marlin Junky, is ".35-06" just another way of saying ".35 Whelen," or a commentary on the huge long throat your new rifle seems to be cursed with? (As in "a real Whelen would have a shorter throat.") All may not be lost yet, maybe H&R goofed your rifle up and would be eager to make amends. What is the twist? Maybe your rifle would be a good candidate for Lyman's 358009.

Bass Ackward
12-07-2006, 05:22 PM
The SAAMI standarization was done by Remington who really made things .... generous. But this cartridge seems to be an AT&T outfit. I do far better when I reach out and touch something.

357maximum
12-07-2006, 05:24 PM
Marlin Junky, is ".35-06" just another way of saying ".35 Whelen," or a commentary on the huge long throat your new rifle seems to be cursed with? (As in "a real Whelen would have a shorter throat.") All may not be lost yet, maybe H&R goofed your rifle up and would be eager to make amends. What is the twist? Maybe your rifle would be a good candidate for Lyman's 358009.

The 35 whelen in the H&R...my thoughts and opinions.....do not send it back...learn to deal with the throat you were deliverd...they will say it is spec and send it back....I have had this with several other cals....

the most important thing I would recommend...with all /06 based rounds....stay away from the upper limit loads...the barrels under block is softer than it should be and warm loads will "compress" the steel barrel block beween the hinge pin area and the breech end, leading to a shaky barrel condition right quick... I have seen it on several of their .280 barrels, and they did make it right...but I have shyed away from warm loads ever since on my other nef's and have since sold the refurbished .280 to a fella that does not handload or shoot often....other than that I love the little single shots they make...I have several of em and plan to get a few more barrels from their accessory program...they all have looong throats....I shoot reformed .222 rem mag brass in my nef 223's to get around this problem...and since I have done this...accuracy is on par or better than any production class bolt gun with J-words...My .223 ultra (heavy barrel) will outshoot any...yes any....223 bolt gun I have ever owned/shot ...as long as I use a 40 to 50 grain j-word and keep the loads sane..less than 3600fps.......the 50 grain bulk tnt hollow points are almost boring to shoot in the ultra...I have actually killed unlucky range dwelling tweety birds at 300 plus with it on several occasions....it stays in my truck and is my woodchuck/crow/meow gun...my other nef singles both rifle and rifled slug..will never leave me till I die...they are fine/cheap little tools...just remember that barrel lug and you will learn to love your nef

as far as the trigger...look around the net for instructions...pretty simple to do, can be time consuming if you do not make up slave pins for the job at hand..My smith got one down to 1 pound on my ultra 223(no creep or push off)...I have yet to get one there with no creep or push off... but I will..2 to 3 pounds is easy.....Brownells carries parts iffin you goof...some parts have to be ordered through your friendly FFL, but no biggie....make sure you have the "right" punch when driving pins(hollowed steel or brass)...some are pretty happy where they are at, and also remember there is a right and wrong direction to drive them out....splined pin...

Marlin Junky
12-07-2006, 10:31 PM
Thanks to everyone for the replies. I'm going to try to make a throat impression tomorrow by pounding a two diameter cylinder of soft lead in the chamber. If it turns out well, I'll photograph it and post the image. It appears there is a section just forward the case mouth that is slightly wider than groove diameter. Then about 1/4" forward is the commencement of the rifling which starts at what appears to be a very gradual angle.

If SAECO 352 floats around in the throat, are there any 358009 molds out there to be had? I mean this chamber looks like it would handle a 300 grain boolit seated waaay out. Maybe it would be worth my while to special order one of those RCBS 35-250-SP molds from Midway. If anyone has an RCBS 35-250-SP I'd appreciate some input on as-cast diameters at the bands and nose. A picture would be nice too. At this point I'm thinking that a snug nose-to-bore fit is the best way to go, but that'll mean a long, heavy boolit.

The trigger is excellent and I found the online stuff on how to improve it before I placed my order. This should be a fun lil' project and even if it doesn't meet expectations, I'll be ordering a 45-70 and a few shotgun barrels.

Actually, the only real let-down was how the factory botched the recoil pad when "fitting" it to the butt stock. The pad itself is pretty mushy anyway and I'll probably replace it or just wear a PAST... at least for starters.

Regards,
MJ

P.S. Measuring the twist revealed 1 turn in 16". Will it stabilize RCBS 35-250-SP???

Bass Ackward
12-08-2006, 07:29 AM
If SAECO 352 floats around in the throat, are there any 358009 molds out there to be had? I mean this chamber looks like it would handle a 300 grain boolit seated waaay out. Maybe it would be worth my while to special order one of those RCBS 35-250-SP molds from Midway.

P.S. Measuring the twist revealed 1 turn in 16". Will it stabilize RCBS 35-250-SP???


MJ,

Lets get the cast first. Standard is about 1/4" of freebore.

The gun will provide the best information. But if you have a long throat, the best bullet design will be a one diameter that is large enough to fill that freebore section.

With a 16 twist, you are going to be limited in options to close to 260 grains. But again, lets "see" what you are dealing with.

lefty_red
12-09-2006, 11:38 AM
Get ahold of NEF/MARLIN about your rifle. ALOT of things have changed since MARLIN took over.

Your recoil pad should be fixed by the factory and will be if you let them know. Ditto on the barrel.

Lefty

James Wisner
12-09-2006, 12:22 PM
The RCBS 35-250sp has a long bore ride nose.

The old west 360-270 has a little longer drive band area.

The Lyman 358318 has about the same drive band area.

If you want samples of these drop me a PM.

Jim Wisner
Custom Metalsmith

Marlin Junky
12-09-2006, 03:54 PM
In an effort to create a chamber impression I've now got a 2 plus inch long plug of lead (stick-on WW metal) stuck in my chamber. I've got the barrel mounted in a vise, pointed muzzle up and filled with Hoppes #9 in hopes of loosening the plug. When the metals recycler opens next week I try to get a 5/16" aluminum rod to pound the plug out through the breech. I guess I should have made a narrower, shorter plug and put some boolit lube on it before pounding it into my chamber. I made the plug by filling a .444 case with lead and pounding it into the breech with a framing hammer and a 3/8" bolt with a denim patch wrapped around it for protection. I'm wondering if I'm going to be able to remove this plug without the use of a lathe, of which I have none.

Oooops,
MJ

P.S. James, I just sent you a PM

Bass Ackward
12-09-2006, 07:35 PM
Probably a 5/16" wooden dowel would do it. Thats what I use.

Marlin Junky
12-09-2006, 10:13 PM
I must've really screwed up 'cause I can't get it out with a 5/16" aluminum rod and a framing hammer while the barrel is held firmly in place by a 4" vise.

If I ever get this thing out of my barrel, I think I'm going to try cerrosafe.

MJ

MT Gianni
12-10-2006, 12:42 AM
Invert a gas check so that you are spreading your force across the surface of the lead. Use the biggest hammer you can find 2-3 lb head and use short taps not long strokes. Good luck with it, Gianni.

woody1
12-10-2006, 01:04 AM
Tip your rod with a 32 auto case if you have one. Might have to reduce the diameter of the rim slightly to get it down the bore. Otherwide you may just be jamming the rod into the lead and wedging it tighter. I'd also try soaking with Kroil or other penetrating type oil for a while and then use a little heat. No not a big torch but I'd use a heat gun or something to get the chamber area hot to touch quickly and then try driving the slug out. Good Luck. Regards, Woody

Bass Ackward
12-10-2006, 07:40 AM
MJ,

Both woody and Gianni gave you good advice. I suppose that this is secondary now, but don't lose patience and mar up something else or ruin the barrel.

Marlin Junky
12-10-2006, 04:07 PM
I was wondering if setting the barrel on the breech end in an empty casting furnace would work. I'm afraid to get the barrel too hot though. Would it be possible to ruin its temper?

MJ

P.S. I almost for got to ask... where did I go wrong? Should I order the cerrosafe or did I just screw up by using too wide or long or dry a plug?

Thanks

woody1
12-10-2006, 05:21 PM
I was wondering if setting the barrel on the breech end in an empty casting furnace would work. I'm afraid to get the barrel too hot though. Would it be possible to ruin its temper?

MJ

P.S. I almost for got to ask... where did I go wrong? Should I order the cerrosafe or did I just screw up by using too wide or long or dry a plug?

Thanks

Do not get the barrel too hot. Hot hot is that? I dunno but that's why I said hot to touch. I wouldn't want anything changing color. If it's possible, quick heat is the answer, such as a heat gun. The kind used for heating paint to scrape off. A propane torch used judiciously will work too. Do you have the extractor out? If the heat and penetrating oil and time don't work, another option would be to carefully drill the center of the plug out and try to collapse it on itself. An Easyout might grab enough to do that. Or, mebe better would be to drill and tap using the largest coarse thread you can get in (mebe 5/16 x what are they 20?) get some large washers or a short piece of pipe and insert a bolt thru it and see if you can pull it out like a broken shell extractor. If that doesn't work, then you're down to drilling the rest of the center out and collapsing it on itself. HTH
What did you do wrong? Well, I've never done it but if I had, I'd have lubed the heck out of the chamber and my plug with what I use to drive boolits thru the bore. A mix of Hoppe's/STP & ATF. Prob'ly don't need the Hoppe's, it's just perfume. Regards, Woody

I forgot, we're talking about the chamber here, use a bigger tap than I said, like 3/8 or even 7/16 and a coarse thread. Get one at most any hardware store if you don't have one.

Marlin Junky
12-10-2006, 06:29 PM
OK, I've decide against heat. It's time for the last resort...CAREFULLY drilling a hole through the plug.

Thanks for all the advice pards. Given enough time I will carefully undo my booboo and lube the next plug with... how 'bout RCBS case lube??? Or maybe I should just buy some cerrosafe from Brownells.

MJ

bruce drake
12-10-2006, 09:36 PM
Call H&R (their number is in your gun's paper manual) They'll probably fix it with no issues on their part and a small charge to you. No need for you to potentially scar your chamber with the drill bit.

Bruce

Bret4207
12-11-2006, 08:49 AM
Whats done is done and I'm not flaming you. What went wrong? The way to use a lead slug to make a chamber "cast" is by using a slightly undersized slug in the throat area. The cartridge case part was fine. You close the action with the case in the chamber, drop the undersize slug down the tube and using an undersize rod start tapping the slug with a light hammer, like an 8 oz. ball pein.You tap and tap until you feel the rod stop moving and then you tap for another couple minutes. Using a dead soft slug and slightly undersized rod you should get a good impression.

Basically what you did is jam a square peg in a round hole. You can fix it one way or another and you'll never do it again. No biggy. I've done far, far worse things.

Cerrosafe is easier. Just have to be aware of the shrinkage factor and add that in.

Marlin Junky
12-11-2006, 05:30 PM
Whats done is done and I'm not flaming you. What went wrong? The way to use a lead slug to make a chamber "cast" is by using a slightly undersized slug in the throat area. The cartridge case part was fine. You close the action with the case in the chamber, drop the undersize slug down the tube and using an undersize rod start tapping the slug with a light hammer, like an 8 oz. ball pein.You tap and tap until you feel the rod stop moving and then you tap for another couple minutes. Using a dead soft slug and slightly undersized rod you should get a good impression.

Basically what you did is jam a square peg in a round hole. You can fix it one way or another and you'll never do it again. No biggy. I've done far, far worse things.

Cerrosafe is easier. Just have to be aware of the shrinkage factor and add that in.

Tpr. Bret,

I was looking for a chamber impression from the shoulder forward into the rifling somewhat. In other words, I wanted to see how long the neck portion of the chamber is as well as the freebore (the later of which seems to be a tiny bit larger in diameter than the grooves). If I cut a case back to the shoulder body junction, fill the case with lead and chamber it, then insert a rod of lead an inch and a half long down the muzzle and pound toward the closed breech with a 5/16" aluminum rod, will I be OK? Do I need to run a patch coated with oil through the barrel first?

Thanks,
MJ

slughammer
12-11-2006, 06:14 PM
Midway has Cerosafe for half price about every other month or so. I have some but prefer a pound slug. Cerosafe is nice for some things. If you screw up with it, you can pour a kettle of boiling water on your gun and it comes out. Perhaps you should heat your gun with a pot of boiling water to get the slug out. If aluminum isn’t doing it, then maybe a ¼ or 5/16 steel drill rod wrapped with electric tape.

For a pound slug, fill an empty case almost all the way up with lead, leave about 3/8” at the top. (I use ww from the pot for this, and usually make 2-3). Then use the biggest mold you have for the caliber and cast some pure lead slugs. Insert the slug into the case, chamber the case, and close the action. Then use your tape covered drill rod down the barrel and expand the soft slug into the rifleing. Using the empty case, you get a very good idea of where the rifleing is and how long the chamber neck is compared to the case. If you don’t have a big enough mold, I’ve seen Oldfeller mention using foil wrapped around the case neck and then pouring into the foil. http://www.castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=2735 Once you have expanded it, use the rod to help bump the slug out while you are slowly opening the action. Sure, some case lube will help the process.

MT Gianni
12-11-2006, 06:54 PM
Veral's little blue book says use the biggest hammer you can find and short strokes after lubing with a light oil. He also claims light hammers and hard strokes will cause the condition you describe. I have had good luck using that technique and inverting a gas check of bore or slightly smaller size to get a better impact. Giaanni.

Bret4207
12-11-2006, 07:26 PM
If you want to do part of the neck too, get some cerrosafe, to be safe.

The only problem I see with Verals methodis the same problem our buddy here has. Big hammers lead to problems improperly applied. Until we can define "strike several blows with a hammer" in words conveying exactly how hard to hit, we have a problem.

Marlin Junky
12-11-2006, 11:21 PM
Is cerrosafe malleable like soft lead?

MJ

Marlin Junky
12-12-2006, 04:50 AM
I got the plug out tonight. It didn't even enter the throat but it looks like I got a pretty good impression of the neck area. The diameter at the neck is a very round .391". Isn't that about .003" over SAAMI max? I think I'm gonna need a fat boolit for this baby.

MJ

Marlin Junky
12-14-2006, 07:20 AM
Here's how far out SAECO 352 needs to be seated in order for it to touch the H-R's rifling. Clicking the image for a larger view will clearly show how long the full 1 caliber throat is.

MJ

P.S. The barrel spec's out at .350"/.358". I can't figure out why the .391" neck but at least there's lots of room in there for a .360" boolit... if I can find one that'll reach the rifling!

Bass Ackward
12-14-2006, 08:47 AM
Glad you go your plug out.

You didn't mention how larege in diameter your seat actually was. So I assume it will chamber a .360. It looks about like a standard SAAMI spec to me. I think you are going to be just fine. If Dan ever get's up and running again you can design a nice one diameter bullet that will do fairly well. And right now, you have something to play with. I have some longer 265s if you would like to try and see if they stabilize in 16 twist.

But before I got a false stabilization reading because I could not reach enough velocity, I think I would try some jacketed stuff first. If you want some bullets to try, just use the PM feature. Bad time of year to try to send stuff too, so patience may be prudent.

Marlin Junky
12-14-2006, 06:29 PM
Bass,

My plug didn't actually make it quite to the end of the neck; therefore, I don't know the seat's diameter... its approximate length is .35". However, it looks like the seat is a tiny bit wider than groove 'cause I can see a machining mark right at the commencement of the rifling which is why I mentioned using a .360" boolit. Any boolit samples would be greatly appreciated. I was able to locate the guy handling Old West molds the other day and he said .360-270 is available. Bernie, that's the guys name, said he'd mail his catalog to me. Bernie is in Fruita, CO. I'm also considering RCBS 35-250-SP if its nose snugs up to the lands. I vaguely remember seeing pictures of RCBS 35-250-SP some time ago and I don't think there's a chance it'll fill the seat.

MJ

P.S. I just had a thought... wouldn't this type of throat be ideal for a PP boolit?

Bass Ackward
12-14-2006, 07:32 PM
My plug didn't actually make it quite to the end of the neck; therefore, I don't know the seat's diameter... its approximate length is .35". However, it looks like the seat is a tiny bit wider than groove 'cause I can see a machining mark right at the commencement of the rifling which is why I mentioned using a .360" boolit.

MJ,

Some jacketed will iron out that machine mark, but it has to go.

Seat length is going to be longer the smaller diameter bullet you have. If you can seat a .361 bullet as an example, you might be able to cut that distance a fair amount. So you really need to fight the first experience and try again.

But I think that your twist rate is going to make 270 impossible. That is why I offered to let you try 265s first. I don't think they will work well either.

Marlin Junky
12-16-2006, 05:52 AM
I finally got an impression of the seat on my .35-06 H-R.

Click on the image for more detail. The length of the seat is approximately .32".

Again, the barrel measures .350"/.358".

Is the attached boolit what I need to use in order to get good results in this .35-06 Handi? What about paper patched boolits? The forward band in my drawing is .32" long and .361" wide. I'm wondering if I should I save myself some time and just get another barrel?

MJ

Bass Ackward
12-16-2006, 07:31 AM
Is the attached boolit what I need to use in order to get good results in this .35-06 Handi? What about paper patched boolits? The forward band in my drawing is .32" long and .361" wide. I'm wondering if I should I save myself some time and just get another barrel?

MJ


MJ,

You can paper patch, sure. You can shoot straight lead too. A large throat means little in the terms of practical accuracy. It does remove options. It's more of an expense and a PIA to get set up, but should be OK assuming you can stabilize what you put in there.

Lead throws very little pressure increase with the slower powders you are going to need to use to get the velocity up to stabilize the weight. In fact, someone wanting to shoot higher velocity may want to be set up this way to aid ignition. Any extra space in the neck of the case can be filled with filler that will aid the cause as / if you become comfortable with that. I have read of guys shooting .228 in Savage 223s in benchrest comps. That is .004 over bore in a 22 caliber!

And as far as getting another barrel you need to remember that the throat dimension is a constant unless the reamer wears down. These companies that make cheaper guns try to minimize costs by getting reamers made larger so that they don't need replaced as often and therefore make more guns in between replacement cycles. So was your barrel made with a brand new reamer? Or one that is half way through it life cycle? In otherwords, there could be bigger examples out there. And the side barb to a larger throat for these companies is that it cuts pressure by having space for gas to fill. But my guess is that throat length on another barrel isn't going to change enough to make you happy. Besides .... you have the neck space at .391 to fill the throat anyway without fussing with turning brass.

Shooting some jacketed first might be a better idea now than ever. They will show you the accuracy potential of that barrel. Why go to the expense for molds, sizers etc, if you won't be satisfied with the result anyway?

Marlin Junky
12-16-2006, 02:52 PM
Bass,

I'll shoot your .362" boolit samples with a load of DP85 and see how that does. What jacketed bullets would you recommend? Are you thinking about Remington bulk bullets in 200 grain round nose or pointed form? I'm sure not going to shoot anything more expensive. In fact before I invest more than about 50 bucks in jacketed bullets, I'll buy a 45-70 barrel for the H-R.

MJ

Bass Ackward
12-16-2006, 03:54 PM
Bass,

I'll shoot your .362" boolit samples with a load of DP85 and see how that does. What jacketed bullets would you recommend? Are you thinking about Remington bulk bullets in 200 grain round nose or pointed form? I'm sure not going to shoot anything more expensive. In fact before I invest more than about 50 bucks in jacketed bullets, I'll buy a 45-70 barrel for the H-R.

MJ

MJ,

I am talking about 1 box. That's 50 rounds. Just to see if the barrel is capable of being accurate. Because going off and buying dies and then having them enlarged, a custom mold etc is going to cost you slightly more than if you could have gone straight factory.

What if it shoots in one hole? By the way, I started lapping mine again using the Tubbs method today. Just to see if there is improvement.

Marlin Junky
12-16-2006, 04:27 PM
Bass,

Weren't you suggesting I shoot a bunch of jacketed to smooth things out?

What .35-06 do you have?

MJ

Bass Ackward
12-18-2006, 06:18 PM
Bass,

Weren't you suggesting I shoot a bunch of jacketed to smooth things out?

What .35-06 do you have?

MJ

MJ,

Oh I have a *** that I built on an old Savage 110 action and a piece of plywood. Ugly and mangy old thing.

Marlin Junky
12-19-2006, 05:33 AM
Bass,

Do you think the .360-220 GB boolit may shoot into decent groups from my .35-06 if it drops a .362" boolit? Granted, it's narrow front band is not tailor fit to the long throat of my H-R .35-06, but if the boolits are aligned to the bore on their jump to the rifling and are sufficiently hard (say WW HT'd to BHN 20) maybe they'll shoot well.

MJ

Bass Ackward
12-19-2006, 07:43 AM
Bass,

Do you think the .360-220 GB boolit may shoot into decent groups from my .35-06 if it drops a .362" boolit? Granted, it's narrow front band is not tailor fit to the long throat of my H-R .35-06, but if the boolits are aligned to the bore on their jump to the rifling and are sufficiently hard (say WW HT'd to BHN 20) maybe they'll shoot well.

MJ


MJ,

Shoot well? To many variables to answer with any chance of being right. If I was a gambler, I would say no.

Hard can help. But when I want to push a bullet beyond the levels normally thought of as for cast, I need to seat to the rifling to achieve my best results. You should get the samples I sent by the end of this week. Then see what you think.

I will say this. If you have the cash, the group buy molds can always be sold as someone will be sorry they missed out on a run. Or it may work on something else for you in the future. If .... you are lucky enough to get the mold made the way it was speced.

Marlin Junky
12-22-2006, 12:16 AM
Bass,

I found your samples in the mail today... thank you.

The lighter of the two looks like an LBT design and the 265 SWC looks like it may have come from an NEI mold. I'm thinking about launching them with 55 grains of DP85 after I get on the paper with some .357 jacketed pistol bullets.

I played around with my .35-06 brass last night and was really disappointed in how much the RCBS F-L die reduces the necks (even with the expander button in place). After F-L sizing with the RCBS die, more force than I care to exert is required to open up necks with the M-die to enable starting .3585" boolits. Somehow I'm going to need to open up case mouths to .361" without introducing a whole lota runout. Polishing the M-die expander mirror bright may help a little. I'm going to look into having Lee make a collet sizer that slightly bumps the shoulder back while reducing the neck. I'd really like to modify my 30-30 collet die to do the same because after every two or three shots of 33/H380/196, I need to bump the shoulder back slightly with my RCBS F-L die in order to chamber rounds smoothly.

MJ

Marlin Junky
01-05-2007, 12:10 PM
Bass,

Here's the result of my shoot with your 260 SWC's. AA2230-C is the only ball powder I own that has really disappointed me, over and over again... I shouldn't have used it to test your boolits. I get great results with a case full (not quite 100% density) of H380/Fed 210's in the 30-30 with RCBS 30-180-FN at 14 BHN but I think I was applying too much pressure this time. A half case of WC-820 also produces great results with the same boolit. I am surprised the holes don't look any cleaner considering the boolit's SWC profile but I may be grasping at straws here and there's probably no hint of unstabilization based on the holes in the target. Back to the drawing board I guess. Clicking on the target reveals a larger image. I think the image I linked to in your email was a tiff which is why you weren't able to view it.

MJ

P.S. Oh yeah, the distance was only 75 yards with a K2.5 scope.

Bass Ackward
01-05-2007, 06:31 PM
I am surprised the holes don't look any cleaner considering the boolit's SWC profile but I may be grasping at straws here and there's probably no hint of unstabilization based on the holes in the target. MJ

P.S. Oh yeah, the distance was only 75 yards with a K2.5 scope.


MJ,

I always thought I knew what stabilization problems looked like on a target until I had the issue hollow pointing pistol bullets. What I have and continue to find is, that hollow pointing does very little to improve cast accuracy unless you have a real .... stabilization problem. Then there is a large percentage improvement from hollow pointing. Quite honestly, the shape of your holes will only tell once you have an extreme case which is very little useful information provided far too late in the process.

Because velocity is such a factor, I would recommend a fairly mild load say like 16 grains of 2400 for 6 shots. Three bullets loaded normally. And three hollow pointed. If both groups were very close to the same size, then you would know that you could stabilize that bullet down to that velocity level what ever it was when it struck the target. If you got better accuracy with the hollow points, then that would tell you that bullet is starting to cause you stabilization issues at that velocity. Further testing would be necessary at higher levels to see where stabilization is lost.

This is a mistake that many people commonly make. They assume that bullet just wasn't accurate in their rifle.

You can have stabilization issues for basically four reasons. 1. Not enough velocity for the twist rate, 2. unbalanced load factors, (More so with PB or in handguns) 3. because of the bullet length vs your twist rate, or 4. meplat size vs your twist rate. Any one or a combination of these factors can cause stability issues and screw you up.

I haven't figured out how to tell exactly which factor or combo it is yet, but you can get a feel if it is load related after a few years of shooting.

Marlin Junky
01-10-2007, 05:09 AM
Bass,

What do you think about this boolit for the long throated Whelen? It holds about a half grain of lube. There's no crimp groove because this design is basically for a single shot. However, the case mouth lands about 1/16" above the top of the lube groove, so I suppose the boolit could be "Lee Factory Crimped" into place (after having Lee custom make a Whelen FC die).

MJ

Bass Ackward
01-10-2007, 08:58 AM
Bass,

What do you think about this boolit for the long throated Whelen? It holds about a half grain of lube. There's no crimp groove because this design is basically for a single shot. However, the case mouth lands about 1/16" above the top of the lube groove, so I suppose the boolit could be "Lee Factory Crimped" into place (after having Lee custom make a Whelen FC die).

MJ


MJ,

Oh Boy. Well here is the truth. (as I see it) Sorry, but you did ask.

I would not select a design like this for the following reasons.

The biggest one is that balance point of the bullet will be too far forward when employing a marginal twist rate. If you had a 12 twist here, you would have more options. The easiest bullet to stabilize is one that has the weight or balance point towards the back. And the farther back you can get it, the easier it is to stabilize meaning that it will stabilize to a lower velocity. That is one reason bore riders or Keith semi wadcutters are so popular. And why the 265 grain I sent you looked like it did.

A good reason for having sooo wide of a band is that you have a super fast twist or low rifling height and you need lead to make drive contact to it. None of this fits your situation really.

And unless you want to use LLA, the farther up the bullet you can get lube, the less of it you eventually need for HV use. Just because a groove is there, doesn't mean it has to be filled. And this design will probably require a harder mix to achieve the same velocity.

But there are a lot of guys out there running 16 twist Remingtons, maybe you can ask Bill (Curmedgeon) if he has found a weight limit and what he uses. Send him a PM and ask his opinion.

Nueces
01-10-2007, 02:14 PM
Someone near the beginning of this thread asked about availability of Lyman's discontinued 3589, a round-nosed GC at 290 grains. A nearly new two-cavity just went on eBay for nearly $145, including shipping. Jeez, these six-banger Lee GBs just look better and better!

I used to dream of owning enough large H&Gs to keep me in lead jewelry. Thanks to y'all sharing your expertise with the Lees, I'm going to set aside a wad of retirement cash and tag along on GBs instead.

Joining this board has been a revelation for me. Unlike a LOT of other 'net activities, this one has inspired me to 'unseat' and go out to the shop a number of times. As good as it gets, methinks.

Mark

Marlin Junky
01-10-2007, 03:31 PM
Bass,

Thank you for the input. In this design's defense:

It weighs only 250 grains, has nearly 75% bearing surface, a 60% meplat, I have enough materials to make all kinds of hard lube and I designed it to double the speed of sound... or better. I can shorten the nose and tighten up the radius on the ogive a little but I'm not going to put lube grooves (filled or otherwise) ahead of the case mouth that detract from the volume of lube contained in the neck. This design holds about a half grain of lube... which may or may not be located in the right place. Do you think the long .361" section just ahead of the lube groove is going to create a leading problem? Are you saying this design isn't worth a $75 gamble?

What does LLA stand for?

Regards,
MJ

Bass Ackward
01-10-2007, 04:09 PM
Bass,

Thank you for the input. In this design's defense:

What does LLA stand for?

Are you saying this design isn't worth a $75 gamble?

Regards,
MJ


Don,

When you deal with twist rates extremes on the slow end for a particular caliber, you just never know. You can fit a bullet up perfectly and still not know for sure.

Look at the 44 Mag guys using 38 twists that according to most formulas won't stabilize any 300 grain bullet. Then along comes a guy that braggs about the accuracy he is getting with some 300 grainer with a barn door for a meplat.

I have two 44 Mags with 38 twists that are measured 38 twists. One will .... and one won't. Same bore sizes in both cases. One prefers semi wadcutters and the other won't shoot them for crap.

That's the hole thing in a nut shell. And in the end, success will come down to how you fit it up and then plain ol trial and error.

LLA is Lee Liquid Alox.

If you go ahead with this, you should follow up and let us know what happened for future reference. You can always sell the mold to someone else if it fails with your 16 twist. Lots of 35 guys around.

Marlin Junky
01-11-2007, 06:04 PM
Bass,

I went ahead and ordered the mold. The boolit is 1" long and holds a half grain plus of lube. I splurged this time and went with an iron block. Here's the final drawing submitted to Dan which is not much different than the one above but I did shorten the front band to .300". The meplat is still 60% but the radius ogive is now approaching an inch (.987"). The bearing length is 74%.

MJ

Marlin Junky
01-13-2007, 07:23 AM
I finally gave my new SAECO 352 (cut on Redding's new tooling) a whirl tonight and beagled it drops very nice .3605" to .361" boolits that weigh 244 grains in BHN 14 to 15 metal. Yeah, they don't really fit the H-R Whelen, but I'm going to try them out this Thursday seated way out to touch the rifling with 55 grains of DP85 (Ramshot Hunter) and either Fed 215's or WLRM's. This means the lube is outside the case but it'll be a while before my Whelen will be digesting MM-35-250-GC's.

MJ

2row
02-07-2007, 01:26 PM
I see said the blind man I think WW metal is too hard for this

Marlin Junky
02-08-2007, 09:06 PM
I pulled the plug on the .35W H-R today. Groups with 250 grain Speers were not very good (though the rounds chrono'd well) and the extractor stopped extracting after 17 rounds loaded in brand new .35 Whelen headstamped Remington cases. I'll probably send the action to MA or CT (wherever the heck H-R is located) for a 45-70 barrel.

MJ