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View Full Version : Arrrgh!!! #@$!%@^ Cruise Missile!!!!



DrNick
04-04-2011, 08:59 AM
OK....

Finally got around to casting with the CM mould from Midsouth. Did the usual prep, a little kiss of BullPlate, lube the hinge, pins etc. Mould came up to temp faster than I thought and I was casting away happily. It was not until the next day that the problems began:

On sorting my water-dropped castings I noticed that quite a few of them and an incompletely filled band near the base. I was kinda shocked...I scrubbed this mould carefully and thoroughly! I ran an approximatly 10 per cent rejection rate :( If it was a dirty cavity I'd expect half of the boolits to have the defect. I was running the Lee Pro 4-20 at 9 of a [ossible 10 on the dial. I usually cast to get frosty boolits becasue I tumble lube most of them and I feel that the lube sticks better that way.

Now it was time to size and lube. Let me start by saying that I broke my Lyman 450 during this process :( The threaded rod that runs the plunger lost the retaining collar at the bottom. The sizer was half full of BAC at the time..... Anyone know where to get spares?

The biggest sizing die I could find was .266...my castings drop at .270/.2705 It didn't seem excessive to go down 4 thou. The dammed bullets BEND when sizing!!!!! These are water dropped WW alloy....usually hard as nails!

How do you guys size/lube/check the Lee CM?

Doc

Bass Ackward
04-04-2011, 09:05 AM
The best sizer I got is the gun.

So, will they chamber? If so, problem solved.

Otherwise, maybe coat it with some case sizing lube so that it slides easier in the die or size before they harden.

rintinglen
04-04-2011, 12:55 PM
I always size-then heat treat my boolits for rifle. Trying to size excessively hard boolits can be problematic, according to Dennis Marshall, sizing draws the temper from the bands, which defeats the purpose of water dropping. After sizing and installing gas checks, I heat treat my boolits in the oven at 450 degrees fahrenheit for 40 minutes and then plunge them into cold tap water. They are then either lubed in the sizer with a larger die (eg, a .311 sizer for .310 boolits) or else LLA or an equivalent tumble lubeis applied.
Marshall is an engineer with an extensive knowledge of the metallurgy of Lead alloys. I believe he is the son of former CBA champion Frank Marshall.

454PB
04-04-2011, 01:04 PM
If you're going to water drop, it's best to size them within hours, before they begin to harden.

swheeler
04-04-2011, 01:09 PM
Get a push through sizer made to the size you want, then hone out the H&I die to the same size or a few ten thousanths larger and use it to lube only, no more bent bullets.

geargnasher
04-04-2011, 01:45 PM
First, the fillout issue. Check venting and pour technique, the CM prefers the ladle IME, as do most long skinny boolits. If bottom-pouring, try to get the stream to drop near the edge of the hole and tilt the mould slightly to create a slight swirl inside the cavity, and also let the last bit of trapped air out the sprue hole as the cavity fills the last band and base. Also, I've found that many aluminum moulds (for reasons unknown to me) cast better boolits the third or fourth session, regardless of how thorough your cleaning and prep (which you did an excellent job of from your description).

Once you get the casting sorted out, forget sizing in any kind of base-first sizer, they all have a lot of slop in the ram and bend boolits like that. You will need to get someone to make you a push-through sizer IN THE SIZE YOUR GUN NEEDS.

What gun are you shooting these in? What is the groove diameter? What does the throat look like? How about seating depth? Is the nose going to ride the bore, or is your mould cut too large for the nose to fit the bore (lands)? If it's casting near .271" on the bands, I can just about guarantee the nose of the boolit is larger than bore size, see if one of your boolits will go in the muzzle nose-first, this will affect the seating depth of the boolit greatly. If you're planning on shooting this in a Swede, the boolit probably won't function as designed because the moulds Lee is cutting now are oversized compared to the original Cruise Missile design that was very closely fitted to the Swedish Mausers.

You have a window of a couple of hours with water-dropped boolits if you want to size them easily, so plan ahead when casting or just air-cool them, size, and heat-treat later. You can put your checks on at any point, but you might have to size twice if you put them on after heat-treating. As far as lube goes, you can pan lube or hand lube before re-sizing them.

Gear

6.5 mike
04-04-2011, 07:34 PM
Contact Buckshot, he made a 0.268 sizer for me. Best thing going for long boolits.:popcorn:

44 WCF
04-04-2011, 07:47 PM
Not sure which part you broke, if you can post a photo I will sort through my bag of 450 parts.


OK....

Finally got around to casting with the CM mould from Midsouth. Did the usual prep, a little kiss of BullPlate, lube the hinge, pins etc. Mould came up to temp faster than I thought and I was casting away happily. It was not until the next day that the problems began:

On sorting my water-dropped castings I noticed that quite a few of them and an incompletely filled band near the base. I was kinda shocked...I scrubbed this mould carefully and thoroughly! I ran an approximatly 10 per cent rejection rate :( If it was a dirty cavity I'd expect half of the boolits to have the defect. I was running the Lee Pro 4-20 at 9 of a [ossible 10 on the dial. I usually cast to get frosty boolits becasue I tumble lube most of them and I feel that the lube sticks better that way.

Now it was time to size and lube. Let me start by saying that I broke my Lyman 450 during this process :( The threaded rod that runs the plunger lost the retaining collar at the bottom. The sizer was half full of BAC at the time..... Anyone know where to get spares?

The biggest sizing die I could find was .266...my castings drop at .270/.2705 It didn't seem excessive to go down 4 thou. The dammed bullets BEND when sizing!!!!! These are water dropped WW alloy....usually hard as nails!

How do you guys size/lube/check the Lee CM?

Doc

DrNick
04-05-2011, 07:44 AM
Not sure which part you broke, if you can post a photo I will sort through my bag of 450 parts.

Hey 44 WCF,

That's very very nice of you. I was able to order the entire sub-assembly from Lyman though. 18 bucks :)

The part that broke was the pressure screw. There is a collar that retains the screw and the collar failed. Based on my reading it's a rare, though not unheard of occurance.

Doc

DrNick
04-05-2011, 07:51 AM
Okay...so I re-slugged both swedes last night (I can't seem to find my notebook anywhere) and they both have a groove measurement of .268. It was a bit tricky getting a measurement with a 5 groove barrel but what I wound up doing was rotating the slug back and forth between the flat portion of my dial caliper's jaws with a very light pressure. .268 was the highest measurement that I got and it repeats several times per revolution. Can anyone chime in here and tell me I did that right?

Assuming that .268 is the number I need I was going to have a push through die made at .269. This way I can size to .269, add a gas check and tumble lube. I only intend to punch paper with these rifles so the loads I was looking at were 10ish grains of Unique and 13ish grains of 2400. If I want to get a bit more out of it I can try sizing to .269 in the custom die, then to .266 in the Lyman, paper patch and size back to .269.

Any thoghts?

Doc

wallenba
04-05-2011, 10:41 AM
I get bent bullets out of my 4500 too. When sizing long boolits the ram kind of tilts inward at the top, and the beginning of the down stroke is not straight down but trying to push outward at the same time. The geometry of the articulation in the linkage is at fault. I went to Lee sizers and alox for the longer boolits.

altheating
04-05-2011, 11:41 AM
I had to send my 4500 back to Lyman last month too. The top ram and the die hole were not alligned. The center was off by almost 1/8". They sent me a new one. Turn around time was a bit slow and of course I had to pay the shipping back to the factory. Works fine now.

Char-Gar
04-05-2011, 12:00 PM
Your results were about predicable for the way you went about it.

1. No need to water drop the bullets! That just makes the rock hard and can tear up up a sizing machine. I destroyed a good old Lyman 45 that way. That is when I stopped that splash splash nonsense.

2. Long slender rifles bullet will bend very easy when sized with pressure on the nose. The harder the bullet the more pressure is needed. That is why many of us went to nose first push through sizing many years ago.

3. When we did the initial "Cruise Missile" group buy many years ago we also had had a batch of Lyman sizing dies honed out at the same time. The fix is to have Buckshot make you a Lee style press mounted push through dies the size you want. Pan lube the bullets with the checks attached and then size them as above.

Once you have done 1-3 above, you are now facing the challenge of getting those bullets to shoot in the fast twist 6.5 Swede. It can be done, but it is the post-graduate level of cast bullet shooting.

My advise is, if you have not mastered the basic of cast bullet rifle shooting, and it appears to me, you have not, then stick with something more friendly until you have. Nothing like a good 30-30, 308 or 30-06 to teach you the ropes.

DrNick
04-05-2011, 12:19 PM
Your results were about predicable for the way you went about it.

1. No need to water drop the bullets! That just makes the rock hard and can tear up up a sizing machine. I destroyed a good old Lyman 45 that way. That is when I stopped that splash splash nonsense.

2. Long slender rifles bullet will bend very easy when sized with pressure on the nose. The harder the bullet the more pressure is needed. That is why many of us went to nose first push through sizing many years ago.

3. When we did the initial "Cruise Missile" group buy many years ago we also had had a batch of Lyman sizing dies honed out at the same time. The fix is to have Buckshot make you a Lee style press mounted push through dies the size you want. Pan lube the bullets with the checks attached and then size them as above.

Once you have done 1-3 above, you are now facing the challenge of getting those bullets to shoot in the fast twist 6.5 Swede. It can be done, but it is the post-graduate level of cast bullet shooting.

My advise is, if you have not mastered the basic of cast bullet rifle shooting, and it appears to me, you have not, then stick with something more friendly until you have. Nothing like a good 30-30, 308 or 30-06 to teach you the ropes.

Hey Chargar,

Thanks for the advice. I am getting really good results from all of my 30 cals and my 8 MMs so I thought I'd give the Swedes a try.....

The only thing I use the Lyman for is lubing my 30 cals...I use push through for my 8 MMs and all my pistols (the ones that need sizing at any rate).

I've set realistic expectations for what I want my Swedes to do: Paper punching to 200 yards. I've read up on what others have been doing so I don't have to re-invent the wheel. 1500 fps is at the upper end of what I need the Swedes to shoot at.

What I was not prepared for was a mould that drops boolits out of spec and having to deal with sizing such a long boolit.

I'll try the ACWW routine and see how it works out. The only reason these were water dropped is because I was casting with several different moulds some of which I water drop to get the hardness I want. I'm the first to admit that water dropping is a pain in the *ss so if you and others are getting good results without it I'm happy to try that route.

Thanks again. Folks like you really go a long way to making this hobby as enjoyable as it is :)

Doc

geargnasher
04-05-2011, 01:43 PM
Doc, the Swede (or Karlina as she's know here) will make you lose your religion when trying to shoot cast. At least you aren't trying to get over 1500 fps out of her, things get really dicey if you push them any faster. Just remember, don't tell Karlina what you want her to do, just try some things and listen to what she tells you, because it's her way or the highway, and if you take any pre-conceived notions about what "works" to the table you two won't get along.

Gear

bowfin
04-05-2011, 04:22 PM
I actually bought my cruise missile mold for a Mannlicher Schoenauer. It will be interesting to see what awaits my efforts...

swheeler
04-05-2011, 05:21 PM
Okay...so I re-slugged both swedes last night (I can't seem to find my notebook anywhere) and they both have a groove measurement of .268. It was a bit tricky getting a measurement with a 5 groove barrel but what I wound up doing was rotating the slug back and forth between the flat portion of my dial caliper's jaws with a very light pressure.

5 GROOVE BARREL???

6.5 mike
04-05-2011, 07:06 PM
I'm with swheeler, A 5 GROOVE barrel ? The 3 swede's I shoot cast in slug 0.266/0.2663, the 0.268 sizer works well in all of these just to give you some idea.
I've found to expect the first shot to tumble from a cold bbl, then SHE will act right with the C/M. With BABore's 140 gr I do'nt have the tumbling, just the first shot will be out of the rest of the group with the same hold at either 50 or 100 yds. Need to get back to these, to many toys, not enough time. :bigsmyl2:

geargnasher
04-06-2011, 12:12 AM
Never seen a five groove Swede. Something is rotten in Denmark (or Sweden!).

Both of mine are four, one has the OE barrel and the other was rebarreled during one of it's refits by the Swedish Armory and restamped with the same serial #.

Both have a .2665" groove diameter.

Gear

DrNick
04-06-2011, 09:14 AM
Okay...so I re-slugged both swedes last night (I can't seem to find my notebook anywhere) and they both have a groove measurement of .268. It was a bit tricky getting a measurement with a 5 groove barrel but what I wound up doing was rotating the slug back and forth between the flat portion of my dial caliper's jaws with a very light pressure.

5 GROOVE BARREL???

I must have been on crack, or more likely very tired. I went back and looked the the slug....4 grooves. My 'repeating' measurement (taken with less tired eyes and more steady hands) is .267-.2675 and happens exactly twice per revolution.

I'm going to get some coffee now.

Doc

swheeler
04-06-2011, 09:18 PM
I was thinkin' maybe you was smokin' the wacky tobacy! Contact Lee and get a .269" push through on the way, 25.00 and about 10 days, then I'd hone out the H&I to just a tad larger and use it for lubing only after sized and checked, I would anneal my gas checks too-Ive been doing it this way for about 7 years now. ACWW should be fine for your load of Unique, I'm sure you'll be pleased, mild and accurate.
Something noone has mentioned is you will need a larger expander/decapper for your dies with the .269 bullets, my dies are Lee and I use their Carcano expander. Enjoy the Swede, easy to load for and accurate.

DrNick
04-16-2011, 06:34 PM
The best sizer I got is the gun.

So, will they chamber? If so, problem solved.

Otherwise, maybe coat it with some case sizing lube so that it slides easier in the die or size before they harden.

Well.....faced with a pile of oversized boolits I tumble lubed 10 with 45-45-10 and tried them out. They did chamber....just. The boolit base extended nearly to the bottom of the shoulder so it ruled out gas checking them. I decided on a load of 8 grains of Unique to start.

I was pleasantly surprised. I fired the first round into the berm with the rifle in a rest and me on the other end of a string. I wasn't sure how high the pressure would spike with a boolit three thou over so I was playing it safe. Inspection of the case showed no overpressure signs whatsoever...in fact I probably could have gone quite a bit higher with the charge as the neck/shoulder showed some blackening.

Satisfied that I wasn't going to lose any fingers I fired the next 9 at a target.....they went in to under an inch at 50 yards, two inches high using the battle sight on the M96.

I've tumble lubed the rest of the batch and will let you know how it turns out at 100 and 200 yards.

Incindentally, I have no idea how fast these were going at that charge but they did stabilize nicely. No oblong holes :)

The odd thing was that the bore was clean and shiny afterwards. I know...only 10 rounds but I was expecting SOME leading given the dimensions of the boolit. Any ideas?

nanuk
04-16-2011, 08:55 PM
I'm gonna guess you will get many ideas about the nonleading issue.
such as Oversized booits are never the cause of leading.

as for fit, from what I read, if it will slide into a FIRED case from that gun, it will fire in your rifle fine. Oversized boolits, and bullets get sized fairly easily in the rifle

Now that Spring is just around the corner, I hope to find time to work on my project rifles.

(over a foot of WET snow fell thursday night)

geargnasher
04-17-2011, 12:52 AM
I was thinkin' maybe you was smokin' the wacky tobacy! Contact Lee and get a .269" push through on the way, 25.00 and about 10 days, then I'd hone out the H&I to just a tad larger and use it for lubing only after sized and checked, I would anneal my gas checks too-Ive been doing it this way for about 7 years now. ACWW should be fine for your load of Unique, I'm sure you'll be pleased, mild and accurate.
Something noone has mentioned is you will need a larger expander/decapper for your dies with the .269 bullets, my dies are Lee and I use their Carcano expander. Enjoy the Swede, easy to load for and accurate.

Good point, Scott. I use a Lee die set with a turned-down .270 Win expander, and I honed out the 6.5X55 sizing die neck to .2695 so the re-dimensioned expander barely touches, since I partial size just the first two and a half bands and leave the body at .271" to fill up the chamber neck area. This gives me about .0008" chamber neck clearance with .013" brass and about a thousandth of boolit tension.

Gear

nanuk
04-17-2011, 05:01 AM
...I honed out the 6.5X55 sizing die neck to .2695 so the re-dimensioned expander barely touches, since I partial size just the first two and a half bands and leave the body at .271" to fill up the chamber neck area. This gives me about .0008" chamber neck clearance with .013" brass and about a thousandth of boolit tension.

Gear

sorry but can you clarify this for me, Gear?

do you mean you honed the die so AFTER sizing the neck ID is 0.2695?

Bass Ackward
04-17-2011, 07:07 AM
Any ideas?


Each journey requires a first step and you made it.

Eventually, when you realizes the thousands of people that have walked your path before you and survived with all fingers intact, you will lose your fear.

When you do, try the checks and some real powder. My other idea is to have fun in the mean time.

Bret4207
04-17-2011, 08:15 AM
Well.....faced with a pile of oversized boolits I tumble lubed 10 with 45-45-10 and tried them out. They did chamber....just. The boolit base extended nearly to the bottom of the shoulder so it ruled out gas checking them. Why??? Put the checks on if you can. They'll be crimped on and they aren't going anywhere. I decided on a load of 8 grains of Unique to start.

I was pleasantly surprised. I fired the first round into the berm with the rifle in a rest and me on the other end of a string. I wasn't sure how high the pressure would spike with a boolit three thou over so I was playing it safe.Cast is very forgiving in that respect. +.003 is doable in many guns with the mild loads we shoot. Inspection of the case showed no overpressure signs whatsoever...in fact I probably could have gone quite a bit higher with the charge as the neck/shoulder showed some blackening. Blackening is a sign of low pressure. You are surely in the safe area.

Satisfied that I wasn't going to lose any fingers I fired the next 9 at a target.....they went in to under an inch at 50 yards, two inches high using the battle sight on the M96.

I've tumble lubed the rest of the batch and will let you know how it turns out at 100 and 200 yards.

Incindentally, I have no idea how fast these were going at that charge but they did stabilize nicely. No oblong holes :)

The odd thing was that the bore was clean and shiny afterwards. I know...only 10 rounds but I was expecting SOME leading given the dimensions of the boolit. Any ideas?

Again, why? Why do you think you should get leading? You're firing a boolit at very low pressure that obviously fits well at this pressure using a lube that works good at this pressure. I think you are over thinking this. Lead alloys are very malleable and forgiving in the way we use them. Accept that and rejoice!

DrNick
04-17-2011, 04:55 PM
Again, why? Why do you think you should get leading? You're firing a boolit at very low pressure that obviously fits well at this pressure using a lube that works good at this pressure. I think you are over thinking this. Lead alloys are very malleable and forgiving in the way we use them. Accept that and rejoice!

Will do!

I'll also be trying a gas check and 12-14 grains of 2400 too. I use 16 grains in all of my 30 cals so I figure 12-14 is a good place to start with the Swede. All I am trynig to do is wind up with a cheap, predictable 200 yard paper punching load...