Keith Bullet Question??? Part 2

[LAH]

The question was asked in the first thread: Is the Keith Bullet old-fashioned & perhaps obsolete?

We received answers but also received comparisons to other type bullets. With these comparisons also came challenges. Don’t you love a challenge?

Since 44man was willing to show what his bullet/load/sixgun would do I feel I should also because I started the first thread. Keep in mind the original question. If you look at the article http://www.riflemagazine.com/magazine/article.cfm?magid=24&tocid=321 & the date of said, it was June 2000. So keep in mind that was nearly 11 years ago.

I know things have advanced & much of it I haven’t kept up with. All I know is what I know. When I looked at the article I noticed the bullet Mr. Seyfried [hope I’m spelling his name correctly] showed as a 260 Keith, ISN’T. Looks nothing like a bullet that would be called a Keith. What is a real Keith? An interesting read on the subject is here: http://castboolits.gunloads.com/showthread.php?t=1954&highlight=%22Real+Keith+Bullet%22 With 111 post & 7,607 views we all know most things Keith will stir conversation.

I took offense at the picture & the statement that the Keith was perhaps obsolete. I have no reason to doubt his shooting skills or the paper plate pictured with 5 bullet holes he shot offhand. BUT I thought my Keiths do that. Keep in mind this was June 2000.

How ‘bout today? I took 44mans challenge to produce some pictures. I went to the local range yesterday knowing the rain & cold would keep other shooters away & I could take as long as needed to do some testing.

First the conditions, overcast sky, can’t beat that for shooting & I’ve never minded the cold & rain. The sixgun, a borrowed Ruger Hunter Super Blackhawk 44 Mag I’ve never shot. The little sixgun has an excellent trigger tuned by its owner, a friend of mine.

Now some negatives. I list these not to make excuse for my shooting, I am what I am, but list them as I wish my shooting or problems to take nothing from the bullet. Enough said.

I left the house without changing my glasses. I shoot see better with the ones left in the drawer. The front sight has a red insert & most will tell you this isn’t the best setup for precision shooting. Another problem is the width of the front sight or the width of the rear blade gap. I require plenty of light on each side the front sight to keep things from fuzzing out. Next was the rest, not the best.

Ok, things are what they are & I am what I am so consider this when judging the bullet performance. Hope you enjoy the pictures.

The sixgun & load. L-429421 cast from straight air cooled WWs which test 9-10 BHN. I sized these .430 & lubed with Ballisti Cast hard commercial lube. The load used CCI 300 primers & 20 grains of 2400.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/Lyman%20429421/DSC00450a.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/Lyman%20429421/DSC00449a.jpg

Having never fired this sixgun I put a target at 25 yards. The Ruger was sighted for at 240 JHP with 23.3 grains of WW296 by the owner at 50 yards. The first shot I fired was for a bullet test into milk jugs of water. The next five I fired at the 25 yard target. I moved the target to 50 yards & fired 6. Both groups were ‘bout 3 inches. Very poor shooting on my part. I couldn’t see the sights well & was discouraged. This is the target.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/Lyman%20429421/DSC00491a.jpg

I replaced the 50 yard target & fired 5 more. The group was still ‘bout 3 inches.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/Lyman%20429421/DSC00490a.jpg

After this I made the decision to fire a couple of cylinders at random targets [plinking] to get a better feel for the Ruger & it’s sights. I tried to stop the plinking before my nerves were shot. About 50 full loads of 44 mag will shell shock Creeker.

Next I set a target at 160 yards. From the target to the 150 yard pin was nine long downhill steps. Here’s a look at the bench/sixgun/target.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/Lyman%20429421/DSC00473a.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/Lyman%20429421/DSC00475a.jpg

If you look just above the front sight & very slightly to the right you can see the cardboard target & bull. That bull is 6 inches & if you’re going to do this it should be at least 12 inches.

I mentioned the red front sight & the rest I used as a negative. The rest was a coffee can, a hospital rag & a bath towel. Here they are.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/Lyman%20429421/DSC00481a.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/Lyman%20429421/DSC00472a.jpg

I shoved 5 loads in the cylinder, took a rest & looked at the sights. I thought what my wife so often says: “It is what it is.” I’ve never concentrated on sight picture like I did for these 5 shots. It was tough, it was fuzz but it is what it is. If I was to take 44mans challenge to produce some pictures I had to send the 5 Keiths down range & take the picture.

The shots? I called no bad shots. They all felt good. I walked out to the target with camera in hand. Keep in mind I placed the bull at the top of the cardboard & didn’t move the rear sight before firing the shots.

The results? One shot was a measured 14 inches low in the dirt. I didn’t flinch or pull the shot. The blame had to lie with the sight picture. The other 4 shots formed a group. Here’s the target & the measurement after coming home. Please note the 5 shots in the upper right hand corner were from a 357 being shot also.
http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/Lyman%20429421/DSC00467a.jpg

http://i66.photobucket.com/albums/h244/Creekerpics/Loading%20Room%20101/Bullets/Lyman%20429421/DSC00499a.jpg

Could the group have been better? After all the glasses, the rest, too small a bull, strange to me sixgun, all this must add up. But when you consider this 60 year old shooter who really isn’t a pro, I doubt I could do much better on the best of days. And if the shot in the dirt was on the paper, what would the group size have been? I could have tried another target but didn’t. This was an “on demand” challenge.

In conclusion, I will not now nor will I ever call the Keith obsolete. It will do for me at least 99% of what I need to do. Is the LBT or perhaps a RNFP better than the Keith? That wasn’t the question. The question still is: Does Mr. Seyfried know of what he speaks when he calls the Keith, perhaps obsolete?

[white eagle]

I do believe the obsolete was in context to those weight boolits in the 45 colt
new and improved John Linebaugh version boolits were different
may have been wrong interpretation on my part
nice shootin
my choice on molds seems to be a 50/50 split
half Keith and the other LFN design

[LAH]

I do believe the obsolete was in context to those weight boolits in the 45 colt
new and improved John Linebaugh version
may have been wrong interpretation on my part

You are correct, those were 45. I'm glad you brought that up as I don't want to be out of context. Guess I should repeat the test with a 45. Good point White Eagle.

[Hobie]

That which works is not obsolete.

[44man]

Forget the one in the dirt! that is great long range shooting and if you remember I am not wanting shooter against shooter, only boolit against boolit.
The 50 yard groups are a concern at 3".
The question. Does the keith get more stable at long range? I will not even think of answering that because I don't know.
Now can you do the same with a boolit like the RD 265, the Lee 310 or the LBT 320. Even try the XTP 240 gr.
Keep it going, you are on a roll.
Does it seem strange that 50 yard groups are so large and a long range group is smaller?
Duplicate!

[brionic]

Nice report Lynn. I like your honesty, and I think you did a pretty good job of shooting in the adversity of glasses/red sight/ strange gun/ small target.

Besides, isn't the single action as "obsolete" as the Keith bullet? :groner:
--
Brian

[Ballard]

Nice group, buddy. And boy, like you said on the phone, that bull looks SMALL.

Randy

[44man]

Nice group, buddy. And boy, like you said on the phone, that bull looks SMALL.

Randy
Aim small, hit small. A big problem with huge targets at close range. Shoot at the smallest thing you can see.

[LAH]

I think the close groups were just me not knowing the sixgun. Like I said, sight picture was horrible. The first two groups were the same size though the distance doubled. As for the bullet taking awhile to settle down? The IBS boys say that the case in their game. But for these targets I'm thinking it was just me. I will say the holes are all nice & round.

I guess the single action may be "obsolete" for some things but for what I do it's gooooooooood.

And Randy, that bull is small.

[fecmech]

It's snowing here today in the Buffalo NY area where I reside but as the weather warms up I plan to do some testing between the 358429 and the Lee 158 rnfp at 100 yds. Since the other thread started I've had this in mind. Just a bit too cool for that kind of stuff now.

[waksupi]

Just for a comparison with absolutely nothing to do with the Keith boolits. Yesterday I shot my .54 flintlock pistol at 20 yards off hand, patched round ball. Group size, 3".

[44man]

Just for a comparison with absolutely nothing to do with the Keith boolits. Yesterday I shot my .54 flintlock pistol at 20 yards off hand, patched round ball. Group size, 3".
How good can it get? A flinter off hand! GREAT.

[LAH]

It's snowing here today in the Buffalo NY area where I reside but as the weather warms up I plan to do some testing between the 358429 and the Lee 158 rnfp at 100 yds. Since the other thread started I've had this in mind. Just a bit too cool for that kind of stuff now.

Been wanting to shoot that Lee. Look forward to your report.

[LAH]

Just for a comparison with absolutely nothing to do with the Keith boolits. Yesterday I shot my .54 flintlock pistol at 20 yards off hand, patched round ball. Group size, 3".

Is that 'bout normal? Sounds great to me.

[Bret4207]

The more I think about it the more I think the article was just a "fill the bank account" article. Obsolete? Bosh! I can't think of a boolit or bullet that is obsolete. It's a ridiculous notion. Some bullets ( to make it easy) are more popular than older styles. These days no one would thinl of shooting a RN bullet at ranges over 100-150 yards. They'd go to a spire point boat tailed rig and gain 3/4" of trajectory advantage. BUT, if the guys spent some time actually shooting at 3-500 yards with RN or FB styles they'd find out the advantage of the BT SP isn't as great as they think. They aren't going to gain much except slightly lessened holdover and crosswind advantage, and that last one is iffy. But there's just no way a guy with a 338 Tacticalextremeninjamagnumb is gonna even try shooting an old fashioned Corelokt at anything over 100 yards! Those are OBSOLETE.

Same thing goes with cast. What's the first thing every noobie asks? "How HARD do I need my boolits?" After all, soft lead is for muzzle blasters and those are OBSOLETE. Whens the last time we had someone get all agog over his new Accurate or NOE ROUND NOSE boolit mould??? I can't recall a single time. Why? 'Cuz RN are OBSOLETE! We have to have cup points and hollow points and penta points and long ogives with 107% metplats! Any thing else is OBSOLETE.

None of it's obsolete. Look at the LBT designs that are close copies of ancient B+M designs. I don't know if Veral copied them or chanced onto the idea, but I have a B+M 45 Colt design that could be one of his WFN jobs. But if I tried to propose an ancient 1920's design as the answer to someones prayers I'd be laughed off The High Road, Graybeards and 24 hr Campfire in under 30 seconds. OTH, if I offer a 260 gr WFN LBT as an answer to prayers......we'll get a different response.

Money, that's all it was for. And then on top of it he didn't even use a Keith to start with. Someone better tell him not all SWCs are Keiths.

[LAH]

.And then on top of it he didn't even use a Keith to start with. Someone better tell him not all SWCs are Keiths.

Guess that's what made me start all of this in the first place.

[waksupi]

Is that 'bout normal? Sounds great to me.

It was most likely a series of fortunate flinches.

[LAH]

It was most likely a series of fortunate flinches.

HEE HEE, the Montana winters are finally getting to ya.

Seriously I've never played the front loader pistol game but most times I can't do 3 inches with my 44.

[63 Shiloh]

WOW!!

I have never seen anyone shoot a single action, non scoped handgun at 160 yards.

To punch out that group at 160 yards is extraordinary shooting mate!

Nothing wrong with that boolit at all.

[Bass Ackward]

The sixgun & load. L-429421 cast from straight air cooled WWs which test 9-10 BHN. I sized these .430 & lubed with Ballisti Cast hard commercial lube. The load used CCI 300 primers & 20 grains of 2400.



Soft bullets AND hard lube at high pressure and velocity. Can't break too many more rules with that combo.

The bore is just geting prepped with that combo and you didn't even work it up.

Try the white pie plate at 160 yards. Don't need anything on it, just the plate. Thats what I use as it will stand out and STILL let you see your sight picture on the target. Improves my shooting.

[LAH]

WOW!!

I have never seen anyone shoot a single action, non scoped handgun at 160 yards.

To punch out that group at 160 yards is extraordinary shooting mate!

Nothing wrong with that boolit at all.

Thank you Sir. If you consider a 1 1/2 group at 25 yards & you can hold the same sight picture & everything else being the same, that translates to 6 inches at a 100. And if we think about it a 6 inch, 100 yard sixgun, that sixgun will clean the NRA Hunter Pistol Silhouette course if the shooter can hold it.

[Iron Mike Golf]

The question. Does the keith get more stable at long range? I will not even think of answering that because I don't know.


This question caught my eye. What do you mean by "get more stable", 44Man?

[LAH]

There's a train of thought that a bullet after leaving the barrel is a little unstable, perhaps from the muzzle blast or what ever & it takes a period of time & distance for it to settle down. As for the Keith I have no reason to believe it's anything but stable from the get go.

But if you talk to the IBS [International Benchrest Shooters] boys they say it is so & watching through optics it can be seen.

An please, I'm no pro at any of this. HEE HEE

[44man]

There's a train of thought that a bullet after leaving the barrel is a little unstable, perhaps from the muzzle blast or what ever & it takes a period of time & distance for it to settle down. As for the Keith I have no reason to believe it's anything but stable from the get go.

But if you talk to the IBS [International Benchrest Shooters] boys they say it is so & watching through optics it can be seen.

An please, I'm no pro at any of this. HEE HEE
True. I have watched thousands of bullets, boolits when shooting IHMSA. A 240 gr from a S&W would rotate around the flight path like a corkscrew but a 250 would run straight. A 240 from a Ruger ran straight. Both were super accurate but the S&W would change POI at different ranges, not enough to worry about but it was there.
The difference is the twist rate.
The question is that if you shoot 3" groups at 50, will the boolit shoot a smaller group at 200? I did not see that happen with any boolit because the S&W would do 1/2" at 50 with open sights even with the rotation. Can anyone answer that? Or was the long range shooting shown just a fluke? Can it be repeated? Nothing counts until it is done over and over.
Nothing I do is based on one group but over hundreds.
If you shoot 1/2" at 50 and all runs true, you should get 1" at 100 and 2" at 200 so a lot of my long range groups will never be repeated yet they show boolit stability.
To ever expect a 3" group at 50 to go to 3" at 200 is a little silly UNLESS you shot better at 200 and just punched off the 50 yard shots. Evaluate how you shot first. If everything you do is different, you can't tell what the boolit has done, only what you have done.
To test a boolit, you MUST shoot the same at all ranges.
If you shoot off hand, every single shot must be called and must match the POI with what a spotter sees. You call the shot BEFORE what the spotter tells you.
Even shooting from a rest, if the sights move off and the trigger breaks, call the shot FIRST. Then chalk it up to yourself, not the gun.
If you shoot a 12" group at 100 and the boolit hits where the sights were, how do you test a boolit? It is YOUR fault.
Kind of strange that the sights must be on the spot! Flinch and still hit the spot and what have you learned? LUCK or MAGIC!
The best off hand shooters in the world wobble and have learned to get a trigger break while ignoring the wobble. The very best have less wobble, bottom line. They never pull off the shot as the sights cross the bull.
Shoot at a standing deer at 200 yards and another that is running. The running deer is easier to hit because you are moving and holding a lead and that removes the wobble. That makes you forget trigger control and it just happens without any input.

[BABore]

I have seen my longer range bench groups shoot smaller than my 50 yarders in terms of minutes of angle. It took me awhile to figure out. It turned out to be the relationship of my elbow and shoulder to the bore axis. I never raised the bags much when changing ranges, but adjusted with my body. Basically I pushed the bags out away from me farther and leaned into the bench a little more. It dropped my shoulder closer to the bore axis and my arm was straightened out more. The way the gun recoiled became much smoother and consistent. I walked that back to my 50 yard shooting and tightened things up there so groups are more linear as I shoot at farther targets. The little things!

[44man]

I have seen my longer range bench groups shoot smaller than my 50 yarders in terms of minutes of angle. It took me awhile to figure out. It turned out to be the relationship of my elbow and shoulder to the bore axis. I never raised the bags much when changing ranges, but adjusted with my body. Basically I pushed the bags out away from me farther and leaned into the bench a little more. It dropped my shoulder closer to the bore axis and my arm was straightened out more. The way the gun recoiled became much smoother and consistent. I walked that back to my 50 yard shooting and tightened things up there so groups are more linear as I shoot at farther targets. The little things!
Good, it is what I see too when a shooter does different at close range.
A revolver shooter will change the hold on the grip for different ranges. The S&W and Bisley will cause the most trouble with a shift.
I really think the Pachmeyer grip on a hog leg is the most forgiving. The hog leg has always proven best but the Pachmeyer removes the pain from the trigger guard. I could shift my grip all over without losing steel but NEVER with a S&W.
I sold my Bisley SBH Hunter quick when I seen what it did. I have never done good with a Freedom either, you need to be glued to the grip.
Shooters never understand how a gun is held is so important. All they look for is recoil relief. Grip angle is so important, just like a rifle is held.
I have a running battle with Whitworth, he loves the Bisley yet he shoots my guns like crazy! :mrgreen: His BFR .500 JRH shot a one hole group at 50 but he still wants a Bisley. I am at a loss! :roll:

[BABore]

When I finally got serious about my shooting, I loaded up a several hundred known accurate loads and did nothing but bench shooting while experimenting with my grip and body position. Where all my fingers lie best, arm, elbow and shoulder position, even head position. The head's connected to the neck, shoulder, arm and finger tips. How each body part is positioned has a direct bearing on the others. There's no set rules other than finding what works best for you.

[44man]

When I finally got serious about my shooting, I loaded up a several hundred known accurate loads and did nothing but bench shooting while experimenting with my grip and body position. Where all my fingers lie best, arm, elbow and shoulder position, even head position. The head's connected to the neck, shoulder, arm and finger tips. How each body part is positioned has a direct bearing on the others. There's no set rules other than finding what works best for you.
Oh so very important even with a revolver, but much more so. Much harder then a rifle with barrel rise and torque. You need total 100% control.
No one can evaluate how a revolver shoots without the control. I really love the guy that says the revolver "ROLLS" nicely in the hand! What a joke!
Any single change in recoil with whatever you are shooting will affect groups.