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View Full Version : Filing down .22's into SWC's



David LaPell
03-31-2011, 07:07 AM
I read an older Handloader article where there was a tool that was like a gauge where you could take a .22 long rifle (not a hollowpoint) and put it in and it would expose the top 1/16 " of an inch or so where you could file it flat, giving you a SWC type bullet and supposedly better expansion. Has anyone tried this at all? I was thinking of trying to come up with a homemade tool where I could use this with my K-22 revolver.

Shiloh
03-31-2011, 12:33 PM
Paco Kelly used to make a tool similar to this.

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco.htm

Shiloh

Bret4207
03-31-2011, 07:06 PM
I've made several. Take a hunk of old 22 barrel, run a 22 LR reamer in and then cut it down till you get as much nose exposed as you want. I took a set of very small, very sharp wire cutters and flattened the back side. No more filing! The only problem is you end up with a hunk of metal that's really easy to lose.

BTW- Using bulk HV 22 ammo, both solid and HP, I get better grouping (usually) from the altered rounds. I kind of thing it's the CG being moved rearward. My first rig was toos hort and gave me an almost wadcutter bullet. The next gave me a FP about half the diameter of the bullet or so, it makes a big diff on squirrels and pests.

bobthenailer
04-07-2011, 09:47 AM
i have some CCI 22 lr ammo , called small game bullet that has a flat nose from the factory . dont know if its still avaliable, but its accurate.

Dale53
04-07-2011, 01:29 PM
I have a .22 Rimfire modifier (home built) and also Paco Kelly's complete tool set.

They work VERY well. There is a definite improvement in squirrel "stopping power" compared to a standard round nose rimfire. My favorite configuration is a RF. The accuracy is excellent, the killing power is NOW sufficient for body shots without the meat ruining use of hollow points.

I try to take all of my squirrels with head shots. However, sometimes the squirrel doesn't cooperate and a head shot is not presented. Using a properly modified .22 round helps a lot...

Dale53

45nut
04-07-2011, 01:51 PM
i have some CCI 22 lr ammo , called small game bullet that has a flat nose from the factory . dont know if its still avaliable, but its accurate.

SGB is the stuff,, small game bullet. accurate in my trials too.

megafatcat
04-07-2011, 02:54 PM
Any feed problems in a 10-22 or buckmark?

Carolina Cast Bullets
04-07-2011, 06:36 PM
Remington makes a 22 Lr SWC load. Its called the "Viper" and it has a companion round "YellowJacket" which is a hollowpoint. Both are hypervelocity loads

CCI SGB (small game bullet) also features a flat point solid bullet. Sometimes hard to find but is useful.

Jerry
Carolina Cast Bullets

Murphy
04-07-2011, 11:22 PM
Paco Kelly,

Speaking of his .22 boolit altering tool, I also recall (and found some just the other day in my shop) his lube 'Apache Blue'. It was an excellent lube marketed by The Hanned Line, but they apparently went belly up.

I do wish Paco would find another maker, or sell his patent so we could back to using it. The last time I spoke to anyone online who had some for sale, they wanted an outrageous (think Ebay here) price for it. Like over $150 for 8 Oz? *I don't think so*.

Murphy

Dale53
04-08-2011, 12:39 AM
CCI basically copied the bullet design from the Hanned Line when they offered their Small Game Bullet. I actually prefer the Hanned Line tool as the flat when made ends up with a sharp cornered nose compared to CCI's rounded flat. CCI's SGB is superior to the standard round nose, however, for edible small game.

Paco's new tool will do just fine and has more options for those who like to experiment.

Dale53

insanelupus
04-08-2011, 01:32 AM
If anyone is looking for some .22 barrels to try this with, I've got a package of 3 for sale on the sell & swap forum!

Just a shameless plug! :-)

shotman
04-08-2011, 01:44 AM
the cci and rem viper are easy just load and shoot
If you want a full flat run across a flat file one time and its flat

CWME
04-10-2011, 09:58 PM
Made one tonight off a junk marlin barrel. Shoots pretty good from what I can tell, only fired on my indoor 10 yard range so far. Should get to see how they kill critters next weekend. My camp is over run with reds squirrels.
For me this is a good option because all I normally have is rn match rounds. This gives me the ability to make some hunting rounds if needed out of match stuff.

As a side note, that marlin barrel was some soft. Parted it off like it was brass. Doubt my tool will be good for very long using a file.

Dale53
04-10-2011, 10:07 PM
CWME;
You might want to consider using Kasenit and case hardening the barrel stub. It'll last MUCH longer. It is no trick at all to get decent results:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7626/Product/KASENIT

Dale53

CWME
04-13-2011, 07:56 AM
CWME;
You might want to consider using Kasenit and case hardening the barrel stub. It'll last MUCH longer. It is no trick at all to get decent results:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7626/Product/KASENIT

Dale53

Thanks for the link Dale. Once they have it in stock I will pick some up.

CWME
04-15-2011, 08:05 PM
A #1 drill bit is .228 and works great for this. You don't need a barrel to make one of these things. Once I wear out the one I have I will make one from some 0-1 tool steel I have on hand.

25 yard Range test this afternoon showed zero change in POI or accuracy with a small and large flat filed on a RN 22LR.

stubshaft
04-19-2011, 05:21 AM
Paco and D. Rock style tools swage the bullet to a specific diameter and alter the shape of the nose. Filing the nose also alters the shape but also lightens the bullet for more velocity. I used to have a hardened die IIRC it was made by Forster to just file the nose down a bit.

nanuk
04-26-2011, 02:11 AM
A #1 drill bit is .228 and works great for this. You don't need a barrel to make one of these things. Once I wear out the one I have I will make one from some 0-1 tool steel I have on hand.

25 yard Range test this afternoon showed zero change in POI or accuracy with a small and large flat filed on a RN 22LR.

that is what I was thinking. set on down firmly on wood, and a swipe with a file, or sandpaper...

you could even harden it for longevity

TNsailorman
04-30-2011, 08:33 AM
Back in the ol days, squirrel hunter's in this area would buy the solid point bullets(cheaper) and take a pocket knife and cut an X on the nose to get better expansion and it worked. The depth of the cut was key though.

MT Gianni
04-30-2011, 10:18 AM
I made 3 tools from 3/4" square stock. IIRC, I measured out the distance fr the flat, drilled the diameter of the brass and reversed it drilling out the rim. Placed it on the bench heated it to a dull cherry color and dumped it into a pop can 2/3 full of oil. If you happen to harden 3 at a time use a larger can as this will cause boiled oil to foam all over the shop floor and stink it up. Cat litter and time are your friends as is safety solvent.

Stray Round
04-30-2011, 07:49 PM
I have a die but use a set of cheap snips instead of a file. They shoot just as good but you can do a batch much quicker and easier with a pair of snips.

marten
06-01-2011, 07:27 AM
Made these two sets
Punches from the first pic will fit inside the die of second pic!

Dale53
06-01-2011, 02:31 PM
marten;
That looks like a VERY good project. I have a die for a straight shortening of the nose (making it into a very effective SWC) and also have a Paco Kelly full kit. These (as I am sure your outfit is also) do what their originaltors state they would do. You can actually hear the "smack" when the flatnosed bullet hits the squirrel. They give much more "stopping power" with out the meat damaging of a high speed hollow point.

On the other hand, the Paco Kelly hollow points (actually rather large cup points) make the .22 rimfire into a much more effective varmint round (ground hogs, foxes, and the like).

Dale53

marten
06-01-2011, 04:06 PM
Absolutely Dale, the 'slap' is noteworthy!

marten
06-02-2011, 05:10 AM
Did not mention that in the first picture the delrin anvil fits a reloading press and that I used a 44 mag expander die to set the punch depth... no faffing around with hammers / mallets etc! :wink:

missionary5155
06-10-2011, 09:05 AM
CWME;
You might want to consider using Kasenit and case hardening the barrel stub. It'll last MUCH longer. It is no trick at all to get decent results:

http://www.brownells.com/.aspx/pid=7626/Product/KASENIT

Dale53

Greetings Welding supply stores carry Kasenite also. At least that is where I bought my last can in Danville, ILL.
Mike in Peru

TJD
01-28-2012, 08:47 AM
I have one of the tools made by “Handed”. I cut the point with one of the knives with replaceable blades. Some call them sheet rock / dry wall knives. The Handed Tool is a great tool. Find the ammo that your gun like to shoot then give it a flat point. I once watched a old carpenter blunt the tip of a nail before he drove it. I asked, “ Why did you do that?” His answer was the blunt tip cuts its way thru the wood rather than splitting the wood. I think the flat point boolit does the same.
The farther the 22 HP gets from the barrel the less the hollow point will disrupt. I think that the flat point delivers more shock at farther distances than the hollow point. In personal test with prairie dogs the flat pointed bullets deliver a much better blow at farther distances. I am not recommending to stretch the range on the 22. It just seems that there is more shock delivered in its effective range. At least that’s my story and I’m sticking to it.

kshock
01-31-2012, 07:57 AM
I read that several people have a die for cutting the tip of a 22 LR to make a swc, but where do you get one of these dies? I have wanted one for years but have never located a source for one.

Milsurp Junkie
01-31-2012, 11:37 AM
They are fairly easy to make, basically a barrel stub, or solid steel with a .224 hole in it. It needs a trim length of .940". Look here for more information, and I think he still sales them.
http://rimfireshooting.com/index.php?showtopic=4427

Dale53
01-31-2012, 11:41 AM
Here's another source:

http://www.gunblast.com/Paco.htm

I have the simple one I had a local machinist make after Hanned went out of business. Then, later, I got a set from Paco Kelly.

They DO work as advertised.

Dale53

Milsurp Junkie
01-31-2012, 11:59 AM
I just emailed him, and yes he is still making them.

.22-10-45
02-02-2012, 12:17 AM
Hello, years ago, when I did alot of hunting. I liked the accuracy and quietness of the CCI Green Tag ammo. I used to chuck these up in a bench lathe collet & run a number drill (press-fit for # 4 lead shot), into nose about .1" Cavity was filled with grease or wax & 1/2 dia. of shot pressed in. These opened up like a big game bullet every time.

Wrbjr
02-09-2012, 01:19 AM
Thinking of getting the Paco tool...BUT... does anyone have any information about how these altered rounds perform feed wise in a Ruger 10/22 rifle?

Enquiring minds......

uscra112
02-11-2012, 05:08 AM
This thread set me a'going. Made a swaging tool last night, along the lines of what Marten did. Bits of drill rod, some lathe work, and an old .35 Rem sizer die. Tool works in my RCBS Junior, and is adjustable for the amount of swaging that takes place.

This is a neat process! My tool was reamed with a handy .22 centerfire throater, which gave me a .225" bore. Swaged a handful of Rem Thunderbolt to test. It really does make the bullet O.D. uniform at .225", as well as flattening the nose. The bullets seem also to be rounder after swaging. Weather is cold, windy, and light snow for tomorrow, or I'd be at the range at daybreak.

BTW Paco Kelly's URL is: http://www.pacotools.com/home

EdS
02-12-2012, 01:56 PM
I too have tried several tools designed to help re-shape the nose of common .22 LR ammo. I have one, very much like the ones described here that's used with a pair of wire cutters, or even a sharp blade to make a flat-point on the boolit. I frankly did not get great accuracy with this, and believe it may be due to possibly making the boolit less concentric in the case. Then I spent some $bucks$ and bought a re-forming die from:

NEAL WALTZ, 4105 HYATT AVE. N.W. MASSILLON, OH 44646

This came with two nose punches, one to form a hollow point from a solid round nose; and the other to form a flat point. The ammo fits very closely in the die and on some brands, lightly "rounds out" irregularities in the swaged boolit. In several of my rifles, the accuracy is improved, while in others (probably chamber differences) it is the same. I had no feeding problems, except in an older Winchester M-62A pump action. Here the slight increase in the boolit nose diameter that happens when you form the hollow point catches on the left side of the chamber mouth stopping the feeding. It looks to be due to the way the extractor hold the cartridge during feeding. By the way, you can adjust the nose punch down to re-form .22 shrots or longs as well as LRs.

My bottom line is that I prep a LOT of my non-match .22 ammo and enjoy the increased energy transfer and accuracy.

brotherdarrell
02-15-2012, 07:05 PM
Thinking of getting the Paco tool...BUT... does anyone have any information about how these altered rounds perform feed wise in a Ruger 10/22 rifle?

Enquiring minds......

As long as you dont get carried away they will feed flawlessly. Make sure you get the tool that will do .225, in my stock 10-22 that was the sweet size that cut groups easily in half. CCI subsonics would print under an inch at 50 yards. Accuracy aside, performance on game is where the tool really shines. Uniforming with the nasti-nose puts fullgrown rock squirrels down asap, and really messes up the lives of jackrabbits.

brotherdarrell

Wrbjr
02-18-2012, 05:57 PM
As long as you dont get carried away they will feed flawlessly. Make sure you get the tool that will do .225, in my stock 10-22 that was the sweet size that cut groups easily in half. CCI subsonics would print under an inch at 50 yards. Accuracy aside, performance on game is where the tool really shines. Uniforming with the nasti-nose puts fullgrown rock squirrels down asap, and really messes up the lives of jackrabbits.

brotherdarrell


Thanks.... I think I will order the kit and see what happens. There are so many things one can purchase for the 10-22.. but this item seems to be a really slick kit. Will report back here after I get it and try it out....

Forrest r
02-19-2012, 01:21 PM
I own/use both the Paco & the Waltz tools. Each of them are good at what they do. The Paco tools will make some downright mid-evil ammo. For consistency the Waltz die wins hands down.

The Paco tool uses a hammer, the Waltz die a reloading press.

The Waltz die was designed to make a .225 bullet that copied the Eley EPS nose & will turn out the same consistent bullet/ammo time after time after time (consistency = accuracy). The Waltz die also comes with a HP tool & a RN tool can be ordered also.

The Paco tool can simply be used to make sure the ammo is round to making full WC’s. These are great to take to the range & test the ammo as you make it to see what happens. I found that the Paco tools worked best at using the strong points of the ammo you’re altering. Meaning ammo with a huge HP would be easier/better to turn into a nasty nosed bullet rather than a pointy RN bullet.

You have to be careful when altering any 22lr bullet. The 22lr bullets are a soft bullet (good for reshaping) with a soft heal (bad if reshaped). It’s easy to overdo the reforming of ammo that ends up distorting the bullets heal (very bad for accuracy). Sometimes less is best.

brotherdarrell
02-20-2012, 12:17 AM
I own/use both the Paco & the Waltz tools. Each of them are good at what they do. The Paco tools will make some downright mid-evil ammo. For consistency the Waltz die wins hands down.

The Paco tool uses a hammer, the Waltz die a reloading press.

The Waltz die was designed to make a .225 bullet that copied the Eley EPS nose & will turn out the same consistent bullet/ammo time after time after time (consistency = accuracy). The Waltz die also comes with a HP tool & a RN tool can be ordered also.

The Paco tool can simply be used to make sure the ammo is round to making full WC’s. These are great to take to the range & test the ammo as you make it to see what happens. I found that the Paco tools worked best at using the strong points of the ammo you’re altering. Meaning ammo with a huge HP would be easier/better to turn into a nasty nosed bullet rather than a pointy RN bullet.

You have to be careful when altering any 22lr bullet. The 22lr bullets are a soft bullet (good for reshaping) with a soft heal (bad if reshaped). It’s easy to overdo the reforming of ammo that ends up distorting the bullets heal (very bad for accuracy). Sometimes less is best.

Actually I use an arbor press with an adjustable stop for depth control, but will readily acknowledge that the waltz likely gives more consistant results. If the waltz was available in .224" I would likely spring for one as the groups from my savage are half the size at .224 as compared to .225. And yes, a little sizing goes a long way.

brotherdarrell

Forrest r
02-20-2012, 08:22 AM
I know Neal Waltz has done his dies in .224 in the past that someone ordered. Drop him a line & see if he’ll do one for you.
1 330 837 4818

waltz@sssnet.com

Another kit to look at is the D-rock set; it uses an arbor press to reform the 22’s. You can find out more info at rimfirecentral.com. His sets are very reasonably priced & get excellent reviews from the people that have bought them.

http://www.rimfirecentral.com/forums/showthread.php?t=311814

I understand what you mean about some rifles don’t like the .225 diameter bullets. I ordered my Paco tool to do .223 & .224 diameter bullets. And I’ve been thinking about getting an arbor press to get a set of the D-rock dies. Heck, I’ve come this far, why not get all the sets & enjoy them. D-rock has had such excellent reviews for a couple of years now it would be worth checking them out.

pmeisel
02-26-2012, 09:45 AM
Well guys, I broke down and ordered a set of Paco's tools. He doesn't take credit cards and my wife doesn't let me have a check book or very much cash, so I had to print the order form and ask her to write a check for me. Good thing my birthday is coming up.

I have been favoring the .22s at my house more and more lately. Less noise = more shooting. Cost is negligible. And varmint season is the longest.

Markbo
02-28-2012, 12:46 PM
I have a die from Neal Waltz, bunch of Paco's tools and a now apparently discontinued HPing tool from Eabco. The latter is actually my favorite. Stupid simple and documented accuracy improver and POP improvement just like the others.

For those asking, I have not had any feeding problems in 10/22s which is where I have done most of my testing, with any of them.

Also for those wondering, Paco's tools take some practice since you are smacking something with a hammer - consistency is key. The Eabco tool (if you can find one) is dirt simple... install round in holder, drill out HP with attached (depth controlled) drill bit, drop round, repeat. The Waltz die is simple, very well made and repeatable. Super easy for a reloader. Like all things rimfire, a little testing is required to find the right size and shape for any particular gun.

Wayne Smith
02-28-2012, 06:00 PM
I think it has been mentioned here but Paco's tools work much better with an arbor press than with a hammer. You don't need a big one.

brotherdarrell
02-29-2012, 01:16 AM
I ran across this video late last night, so i downloaded it to share. A few things to consider: these were cci velociters modified with the Paco tool using a deadblow hammer and a light touch. At the top of the paper is the first un-altered shot and the four below are after a poa change. Then come four shots, with the fourth me fighting the savage magazine. This is all @ 50 yds.

A couple other aspects to consider: the 'factor' by which this improved is about normal, a 1" group to .25" group, for my savage. With some ammo it is much greater, ie. winchester. With my cz 452 ultra-lux group size shrunk by much less. The thing to remember is that the performance on game is much greater.

Also this is the smallest group I ever got with this rifle, paco-ized or not. The closest to this is cci sub-sonic which consistantly grouped from .5" - .75" @ 50 yds.

brotherdarrell





http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DfSXE5XBJq4&context=C3968ed7ADOEgsToPDskL8XWJfmns5PusGsJNoDgb8

Markbo
02-29-2012, 02:36 PM
I think it has been mentioned here but Paco's tools work much better with an arbor press than with a hammer. You don't need a big one.

Perhaps so. But I don't have an arbor press and all of Paco's instructions that I have ever seen describe hammer use.

pmeisel
03-04-2012, 11:47 AM
A hammer is easier to pack than an arbor press....

Larry Gibson
03-04-2012, 03:06 PM
A hammer is easier to pack than an arbor press....

That it is but a Lee hand press for the Waltz dies trumps....or is that check mate?:-)

As mentioned I have both tools BTW so I base my reply on experience.

Larry Gibson

Markbo
03-07-2012, 01:25 PM
I believe I'll stick with my RCBS single stage since I don't do all my adjusting in the field.

cat223
04-05-2012, 04:39 AM
Back in the ol days, squirrel hunter's in this area would buy the solid point bullets(cheaper) and take a pocket knife and cut an X on the nose to get better expansion and it worked. The depth of the cut was key though.

I've heard my father-in-law talk about doing this to 22 bullets for squirrel hunting also. In theory it totally makes sense.

tenx
04-21-2012, 03:16 AM
I made a similar tool to flatten (file) the tip of the bullet but I used the shank end of a large drill bit, seems they dont harden the whole bit, just the buisness end and that leaves the shank soft enough to drill and work with. Afterwards I heated it dull red and dropped it into a small can of oil (small fire, be careful). Hardened great, a file just polishes the end of the die, will probably out last me. Just my 2 cents worth.

**oneshot**
04-28-2012, 05:57 PM
I've been playing with the Drock modifier. Flat points seem to be the way to go for me.

zack
05-02-2012, 10:42 PM
I've made them out of car engine head bolts. Cut the bolt close to length on the bolt head end, then chuck it up in a drill press. Drill all the way through with a #73 or #74 bit held with vice grips. (You're turning the work, not the bit. Poor man's metal lathe.) Carefully file it off to your desired length and then case harden it with 'KASENIT". The case hardening will be hard enough that when you run the bullet nose across a file it won't cut the jig. Works very well and is fast to do a box for squirrel hunting. Yes, they are superior killers over round nose and won't blow up meat like a hi-speed hollow point. I've since moved on to a Neal Waltz Die, but it doesn't make any better flat point than the old ones I made. Zack

Been years since I made the jig. Forgot the drill bit size and glanced at a chart when I wrote this post. #74 would be way way too small. Had to of been a #1 or the next size smaller.

Markbo
05-03-2012, 02:23 PM
I'd like to see a couple of pics of one of those if you have any Zack


oneshot - what is a Drock modifier?

zack
05-03-2012, 05:05 PM
Alrighty. Here's three. KASENIT is cheap and I've had this pint can for years. A little goes a long ways. You can harden small parts with Kasenit and a propane torch. Any old wore out fine cut file is good enough. It won't be much good after you've drug that hardened jig across it anyway.
Nice big meplat and only arout 3 grains of lead was removed. I've made shorter ones but you can get them so short that you have feeding issues. Zack

cast-n-blast
05-04-2012, 06:03 AM
Slick idea ! How about heating the bolt cherry red, and then oil quenching ?

zack
05-04-2012, 10:04 AM
Slick idea ! How about heating the bolt cherry red, and then oil quenching ?

You can. IF you use stock with high enough carbon content to be heat treatable.

Para Cassatt
02-15-2013, 12:45 AM
Great thread.

Four Fingers of Death
02-15-2013, 11:26 PM
I have a Paco tool. It went into hiding for a few years, but surfaced recently and I pounced on it.

I use a smallish hammer with a plastic head. I drop it from the same height each time and only hold it twixt thumb and forefinger. I checked with a micrometer and the readings were pretty much identical.

My die has 223, 224 sizing chambers, but he now makes a 4 holer (noooooooooo not an outhouse, a die for 22LRs!). That would give you more sizing options.

I have knocked the points off a wheelbarrow load of milsurp ammo on the grinder as well as a few thousand Federal American Eagle L(pointy)RN 38s for use in my Rossi 92. These 38s with the lead tip knocked off them seemed as accurate as the un ground rounds, but I wasn't exactly bench resting them. I must try some 22s this way, see how they go.

I'll Make Mine
02-15-2013, 11:56 PM
Well, this looks like an interesting project to use a piece of that 7/8"-14 rod I bought. Anyone know where I can get a shell holder to take .22 LR?

uscra112
02-16-2013, 01:38 AM
I didn't use a shell holder in the normal sense. I made a solid, flat-topped replica by lightly machining a carriage bolt to drop into a .22 Hornet holder, so the cartridge is pressed all the way into the die, full stop. (There's a .080 deep counterbore that receives the rim.) Internally the setup allows for a rod to push the cartridge back out far enough that it can be easily pulled free. Honest, you'll have a much easier time doing this if you start with an old .44 or .45 sizer or seater die which has the large adjuster plug in the top, (i.e. not an RCBS), rather than trying to make it all from a piece of 7/8 all-thread. The threaded plug is already made for you, as is the internal thread in the die. You need the threaded top plug - it lets the punch be easily adjusted, easily exchanged if you want a different nose form, and has a hole already in it for the knockout rod.

(Check the next post for pictures.)

uscra112
02-16-2013, 01:45 AM
Ooops, forgot this thread doesn't have the pictures of my version:

I'll Make Mine
02-16-2013, 12:06 PM
Honest, you'll have a much easier time doing this if you start with an old .44 or .45 sizer or seater die which has the large adjuster plug in the top, (i.e. not an RCBS), rather than trying to make it all from a piece of 7/8 all-thread. The threaded plug is already made for you, as is the internal thread in the die. You need the threaded top plug - it lets the punch be easily adjusted, easily exchanged if you want a different nose form, and has a hole already in it for the knockout rod.

I don't doubt this in the least, but I've never owned a .44 or .45 and don't have any dies in that size; I don't even have spares in .38/.357. It looks to me as if I need to step drill up to 7/32" (.219) and then lap to the desired .224-.225 final diameter for my rifle (bump a few cartridges and test the results; I can always lap a little more if they're not accurate), and with something that can act like a shell holder I wouldn't need a counterbore or a rod to eject the shell. Internal threading isn't that difficult; a 3/8" NF tap in a suitable top hole will give the required adjustment and the actual tip forming rod can be mounted into a turned down tip with a setscrew (or the 3/8" NF bolt can be turned to final shape directly).

Four Fingers of Death
02-16-2013, 05:53 PM
I'm off to the range later this morning with my son. I will take my old trusty Browning International Medallist and my Paco Accuriser along and have another play with them.

uscra112
02-20-2013, 02:22 PM
@I'llmakemine: Fair enough. I've always got piles of stuff lying around because I am addicted to going to estate auctions. Over time I've acquired numerous "donor dies". I also have the advantage of having drawers of chambering reamers around. My die was made with a .22 centerfire throating reamer that happened to be handy. But you can get a .2250" chucking reamer on evilBay for about twenty bucks, and reaming your die will make a hole with minimal taper and roundness error, so I'd advocate that you do that at least.

I have seen a .22RF shell holder included in one of the $150 commercial die kits for this, but making one at home I felt was more trouble than making the die with a knockout rod. Mine doesn't push the swaged round all the way out, BTW, only about 3/8" so I can grab it with my fingers. Guarantees that the finished round won't get ejected into the floor. What you might try is an old trick that kids did with some of the "boys' rifles" of yesteryear. Many those cheapo single-shots had "extractors" that were anything but, so the kid made a little metal fork out of a scrap of hacksaw blade or some such, to slip around the head of the partially extracted case, which let them pull it out the rest of the way. (The less clever kids just used the tip of their jack-knife blade, after they'd broken all their fingernails.) If you design your die so the cartridge isn't pushed in flush with the die face, like mine does, then a little hand tool like that would let you get it back out again.

I'll Make Mine
02-20-2013, 09:19 PM
But you can get a .2250" chucking reamer on evilBay for about twenty bucks, and reaming your die will make a hole with minimal taper and roundness error, so I'd advocate that you do that at least.

I have seen a .22RF shell holder included in one of the $150 commercial die kits for this, but making one at home I felt was more trouble than making the die with a knockout rod.

The reamer would be a good investment anyway; with suitable machine shop tricks, it can do about 85% of what one might do with a .22 LR chambering reamer -- it won't cut a tapered throat or rim recess, but those can both be managed with other tools.

I did have an idea of how to make a shell holder; I can easily turn a flat top blank to fit my press ram, and to that I can mount a piece of slot channel (aka closet door track or equivalent) with a quarter inch slot, then add an insert that will support the cartridge base and stop it at the correct position. It won't look like a shell holder, but it'll work like one.

uscra112
02-20-2013, 11:43 PM
You've got it !

Four Fingers of Death
02-21-2013, 07:54 AM
Would it be possible to modify an existing shellholder? Fill up the rim recess with weld tdy up on the lathe and use a mill I suppose to cut the correct rim rebate? I am not a machinist,just something that popped into my haid!

I'll Make Mine
02-21-2013, 08:28 AM
Would it be possible to modify an existing shellholder? Fill up the rim recess with weld tdy up on the lathe and use a mill I suppose to cut the correct rim rebate? I am not a machinist,just something that popped into my haid!

I have neither a welder nor milling machine; not even the tooling necessary to safely or effectively use my lathe for milling (no end mill holder with drawbar for the spindle, no vertical milling slide). If I had a milling machine, I could make a new shell holder that would look like factory made (i.e. round with the slot milled in).

Para Cassatt
03-28-2013, 12:23 AM
I ended up buying the Waltz die and hope to give them a try on Sunday. I still would like to find, make or buy another Hanned line LR tool but hopefully the Waltz rounds will make that something I no longer need. I'll post some target pics Monday if they prove not too embarassing.

JeffinNZ
03-28-2013, 09:25 PM
I tried to contact Paco but never got a response. At the same time I acquired a mini lathe so made my own tool. What I am not overly comfortable with in respect to the Paco tool is there is no 'stop' for the nose forming punch and the process relies on 'feel' by the user. I made my punches to work with a half collar. The collar stops the punch in the same place each time then once removed the punch drives the round out of the die:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN2120_031.jpg

HP and FN bullets:

http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN2119_030.jpg

I have formed a lot of Eley standard velocity. Here is a bullet recovered from wet phone books at 50m:
http://img.photobucket.com/albums/v505/JeffinNZ/Shooting%20stuff/DSCN2122_032.jpg

Jim
03-28-2013, 09:39 PM
Nice job, Jeff! Now ya' got me thinkin'. Scary, ain't it? :bigsmyl2:

uscra112
03-28-2013, 10:30 PM
That's pretty good, Jeff.

shotstring
03-30-2013, 10:10 AM
The old winchester magnum rounds always used to come with flat tips. One of the best small game hunting rounds ever. But as a kid, hunting with our 22's, the regular solid nose always did the job, but if we wanted more expansion we just used the hollow points. If we REALLY wanted more expansion, we just enlarged the HP cavity with a nail for literally explosive expansion. Accuracy did suffer slightly by enlarging cavity, but not that much. When I was young, simple solutions always seemed the best. When people get older, it seems that the more complex the solution, the better. Never figured that one out yet.

Markbo
04-01-2013, 12:14 AM
I thought I'd throw in some experience after shotstrings. A couple of Summers ago I was up at the Summer house breaking in a new 10/22 build. I shot about 25 different loads. This is a hunting gun, so I left all the expensive ammo at home, BUT I did still shoot some sub sonic stuff. After all how much energy do I need to kill a squirrel?

Anyway after finding the 5 most accurate loads (all sub 1/2" @ 50yds) I took an Eabco HP tool to them all to see what would happen. 4 of 5 loads showed better accuracy, with 2 of them by 35%! Nothing was changed except drilling out the HP with that little tool. It turned sub sonic loads into killing loads with some real pop because of that HP. Because of that, I took out my Paco tools and started working with them.

Got similar results. My point is you may be very pleasantly surprised by accuracy improvements using these tools. I have the Eabco, Pacos and Waltz die. I use them all and pretty much don't hunt anything without having used one of them. They make a difference!