410 loading ?'s and chronoing?

[lar45]

I've been playing with some reduced loads for the 410.
The kids like shooting them better than factory ammo and it is about 1/2 the cost.
I have some of the Magtech 2.5" brass 410 cases and some 444 cases also. My Mossberg bolt action 410 will not close on the 444 cases, but the Stoeger single shot will.

BPI 2.5" primed plastic hull from midway($14/100), Fed. 1/2 oz wad($6.50/250),
11 grains 2400 with .4oz no 7 shot, and a BPI fiber wad($10/500) glued on top.
Any ideas on chronographing the loads? I haven't tried yet, but would imagine that it could be a pain.
I used regular Elmers white glue, but it didn't hold very well. I may try a drop of krazy glue, but I think it would leave a residue on the hulls. (just read suggestion for rubber cement that has worked. I'll try that)
What I'd like to find is a way to put the factory star crimp on the plastic hulls and use a regular loading press. A 444 shell holder fits the 410 rim.
The cost for buying and loading is around $5.70/25 shells. Then reloading will be around $3/25. Even if I just used the primed hulls once and threw them away, it would be half of the store price.
I don't have a way to size the base of the plastic hulls yet. I think I'll get a 460 S&W size die and see if it will take the 2.5" length inside.
The fired hulls still drop into the chamber, but I would imagine that they will need sizing sometime.
Anybody have thoughts on Star crimping the plastic hulls?
sizeing the base?
Or chroning the loads? (I'd like to keep the reduced shot loads to around 1150 fps so it will be similar to factory loads to keep swinging and follow through the same.)

Another thought I had(after reading the 9.3x74R 3" case for the 45/410 TC in the special projects section).
What about makeing a Magnum load with the x74R case? Maybe use a thin over powder wad, then fill the case with shot and another wad on top? You might be able to get a full 1 oz of shot in.
I wonder if quickload would even be close on predicting pressures??
TIA

[Pepe Ray]

Lar45,
Very interesting project. Like mine. A .45Colt/.410 Rossi SS,Break action w/removable choke.

I've got the brass 410 hulls and .444 cases to play with but the 9.3x74R is news to me. Where did you get them?

Someone else (Old Ironsights??) is dealing w/similar problems. Think he's playing w/a Win9410.

Keep on keepin on. I'll try to keep up.
Pepe Ray

[Old Ironsights]

I'm going the other way. I'm trying to push the .410 brass for hot slugs out of my Win 9410.

However, the CBC brass won't fit a #11 shell holder for me.

There are a couple of roll-crimp tools available for .410 plastic. One from Graf & Sons, and there is one available on Doug's Slugs. http://geocities.com/doug410slug/index.html

You put an over-shot card on then roll-crimp it.

Couldn't help you with star crimp though. Probably won't find one not attached to a press.

I'm not sure you are going to be able to do plastic & shot well without a MEC or Lee though.

BTW: This: http://www.4-10.co.uk/ is a great resource.

[Old Ironsights]

Glen... I may be able to get you a Lee Loader in 3"/.410 if you are interested...

[lar45]

http://www.midwayusa.com/ebrowse.exe/browse?TabID=1&Categoryid=7447&categorystring=9315***652***670***9013***
Midway has 9.3x74R brass by Norma.
I don't have any of this, but was reading in the special projects section. I may buy 20 cases just to play with

Yes on the Lee 3" 410 tool

Dougs Slugs looks like a great site. I've never seen it before. A roll crimp would be great.

The 410 brass rims fit my Dillon 550 shell holder for 45 colt.
I have a whole set of shell holders, I'll see if it fits another #.

Another question about the CBC cases is what to use for a mouth expander/bell die? The mouth on my unfired 410 cases is .441" ID. Maybe pick up a Lee die set for the 43 Spanish or Mauser?

I think that for crimping over a shot card, maybe I could use the Lee factory crimp die for the 444 Marlin? Or maybe just a roll crimp in the regular seat/crimp die.

It would be nice if the Win 9410 had interchangable choke tubes. Then you could get a rifled one for your slugs.

I'm playing with a Stoeger single shot break open 410. It's a pretty nice little gun. It has a vented sight rib and the action breaks open by pulling on the front of the trigger gaurd. It was around $110 + tax.

Time to go check out Dougs Slugs some more.

[Old Ironsights]

Actually, there is an interchangable choke tube variant of the 9410, and I could probably get a new barrel fitted for about $300 (The barrel is $190 from Winchester) but I am looking to use this as a big (full bore), short range high pressure gun, and a choke would, well, choke. ;)

That's why Doug's slugs are .375... to get through choked guns. That's a lot of rattling around &/or re-swaging going on to blow a hollow base to .41x then choke it down again. I know rifled chokes are closer to cylinder bore, but still...

[Pilgrim]

A couple of years ago I fooled around with some .375 RB's in my .410's just out of curiousity. The weight of 3 ea. .375 RBs' is less than 11/16 oz. (~300 gr.) advertised for the .410 - 3". A .375 RB is about 85 gr., so 3 of them would be ~255 gr. In addition, 3 ea .375 RB's fits nicely in a plastic shotcup (WW410) in a 3" case, and a crimp holds everything together nicely. IMO a .375 round ball at 1200 or so fps would be a pretty good anti-personnel load, or even a short range killer for coyotes or ?? So I loaded 3 ea. in a .410 shotcup (WW410), with granulated filler around them to minimize the damage to the RB during firing. 3 ea RBs with filler fits neatly in a 3" case (old WW paper cases I found at a "junk" store! I love prowling in those places.). My memory says the last RB was partially out of the shotcup, but fit nicely in the case. I fired them out of a cylinder bore .410 (barrel cut off on a cheap Stevens bolt - my boat gun) at 25 yards. The three RBs' consistently spread to around 6" at 25 yds, and IIRC, were still on paper at 50 yds. I used WC820 powder, about 13 gr. which is the same as for W296 for the 11/16 shot load. There were no apparent problems with pressures or cases sticking. I don't believe I chrono'd the loads but since they were slightly less than a 11/16 oz. shot load, I figured the velocity would be roughly the same or around 1200 to 1250 fps. FWIW Pilgrim

[lar45]

I checked my shell holders and the CBC brass 410 cases and plastic hulls will fit in a no. 5, the same as the regular mag(338 win.)

Several years ago I shot a Deer with a 12ga 3" with no 1 buck. I think it got 5 or 6 hits and went down right away. Who knows what the velocity was, but I would think that if you could get 3 .375 round balls in the heart/lung area it should work pretty good.
I shot a small mulie with a 357 revolver and 110 JHP and it piled up within 40 yards. A couple .375 soft round balls should do about as well.
After the 357 Deer, I wanted to try something smaller like the 30 Carbine or 32 H&R to see how it would work. It would have to be a broadside shot only.

What size is the choke on your 9410?
What about a 375 cast bullet in the shot cup? If it stayed in the shotcup going out the barrel(I'm sure it would) would the plastic cup squash down so as to not hurt the muzzle? It would probably tumble right away, so the hollow base would be better.
Your Win should only take the 2.5" shells?
I wonder how the flat case mouth will feed? You might have to load so the last round ball is half way out and the mouth crimped to hold it in. Then you would have a round nose for better feeding.
Or maybe a roundball or 2 under the hollow base slug. Like the Buck and Ball loads from the Blunder Buss?

the hollow base is probably the answer as it can expand to fit the bore and swag down going out the choked muzzle.
I was reading somewhere about blown skirts when the pressure got too high. Could have been a muzzle loader? So you may have to play with raiseing the pressure until you get blown skirts and then stay below that level.

[Old Ironsights]

Is that a LEE #5? I need to be able to use my Auto-prime.

Indiana won't allow multiple projectiles. Gotta be a solid slug.

My 9410 is cylinder bore, and mics out at .415 by my inexpert use of the caliper.

The skirt shouldn't blow out so long as the OD of the slug and the ID of the bore are snug. The only reason for the hollow base in the way I want to use it (full caliber) is to create the nose-heavy tail-drag Foster effect.

[Pepe Ray]

A Lee #5 is the same as a Lyman #13 & RCBS #4

Pepe Ray

[woody1]

lar45 - I just found this thread...you're asking questions faster than I can form replies. You're a man after my own heart re: the little 410. Go ahead and chrony them just start close and don't move back any further than necessary. As I recall I'm about 12 feet and have had no problem.
Misc loads I’ve used in the .410

Rem case 3/8 oz. Shot - 8.5 gr. Herco, Win 209 + card wads & styro to fit - 1215 fps 1 shot - 8.0 gr. Herco 1153 fps 1 shot

*******************
½ oz shot WAA410 Win 209 14 gr. 2400 w/ 1 card wad + styro to fit -1235 fps - 1 shot
***********
3 balls loaded as above 886 fps w/ styro wads
1075 fps w/ card wads
***********************
1 ball in shortened Win AA 410 case+8 gr Herco + card+styro - 1338 fps and 1296 fps - 2 shots.

Regarding the 444 cases, if you thin the rim (from the front) you'll prob'ly find they'll fit OK. I've used them a lot and found that the only sizing I needed to do I did in a 308 die. I usually do this after I've loaded them and it just squeezes everything back to size. Yes, they do swell when fired. If you've got a gun with nice smooth chamber walls, you may not have to resize. Just try 'em back in the gun. I don't use store bought wads or shotcups. I just cut wads and overshot cards using a homemade cutter. Wads cut from styrofoam meat packages make dandy fillers when placed over a lubed card overpowder wad. I also use the 308 seat die shoulder to roll over the mouth a little to crimp. Works dandy for me. I've recently started using a peanut made of cornstarch as filler instead of styrofoam. Just squash 'em and stuff and top with a card wad.

Resizer for the shell base for regular hulls - make one from a washer. That's how I made mine - prob'ly from 7/16 and honed and smoothed it inside until it gave the size I wanted. Put it over your shell, which you have in your shellholder in your press. Stack a couple larger washers over it and raise it and jam the "sizer" washers over the head. Then, you did make an ejector pin didn't you? Mine is from a 5/16" bolt with one end slimmed to use as a primer punch and the head end machined to fit the shellholder. So you invert the case over the punch and raise the whole mess into your die hole in the press and eject the shell from the sizer. Wheew Much easier to do than describe. Pictures would work better. More later re: crimping in a standard press. Regards, Woody

[woody1]

Loading 410's

Let me start by saying I don’t have to use a 410 but it just so happens that I am the current caretaker of two. These have a history. One, an old IJ Champion that belonged to my Aunt, the other is a bolt action Western Field (prob’ly a Stevens) that belonged to my wife’s father. I mostly use them around the place, keeping ground squirrels out of the yard and garden and shooting starlings and tree sparrows. An occasional quail may find it’s way to our dinner table too.

After trying to find a Lee loader for 2 ½" .410 shells for years at a decent price and not wanting to spring for a high class loader for a box or two of .410's a year, I’ve figured out how to reload AA hulls with commonly available dies.

I deprime with a hammer and punch, the Lee way. A decapping punch can be made from a 16d nail or any number of things. I reprime with a piece of tubing that fits inside the hull (essentially the Lee way) using 3/8"o.d.. tubing.

Add appropriate powder charge for ½ oz. load and top with homemade over powder card wads. Add styrofoam fillers to get proper crimp and add ½ ounce of shot. I top the shot column with an overshot card just in case the crimp isn’t perfect and it often isn’t. The overshot card only has to be about as thick as a 3x5 card. I usually cut mine from cheapie paper plates after I’ve used ‘em for targets. Over powder wads I make from all sorts of cardboard from primer boxes, cereal boxes and even used priority mail boxes.

I cut my wads with a sharpened .308 Winchester case cut below the shoulder mounted in a drill and push ‘em out of the case with a nail thru the bored out flashhole. I use a sharpened .40 S&W case to cut the filler wads and the overshot cards. I just use an RCBS chamfering tool for sharpening the wad cutter.

Other stuff needed:
6-point hand crimp starter from Lee (mine is for 20 gauge)
RCBS .308 Winchester seating die (others may work, I don’t know)
RCBS wadcutter seating stem for .32 S&W long
Shellholder for belted magnums (RCBS #4, Lyman #13 or equivalent) better is an RCBS#24 slightly opened up with a dremel tool.
Various dowels and/or punches for seating wads
Wad fingers are a great help but finger finesse works too.

I know everyone doesn’t have all this stuff, but most of it’s available pretty reasonably at gun shows. At least it is around here. I happen to have all of it in my shop. Don’t own a belted magnum either.

Proceeding with the process:

From here on it’s kinda tricky and takes a lot of fiddling to get set up right, but it works for me.
Using the hand crimp starter, start the crimp folds reforming. Use a gentle hand here until you get it right.

I accomplish the crimp by starting it with the crimp starter from Lee. Then with the seater raised, raise the shell into the die until the crimp (shell mouth) begins to contact the die shoulder. This starts the crimp closing process. At this point you do not want the shell contacting the seater stem. After the crimp is closed enough that the seating stem can capture it begin lowering seating stem and raising and lowering the ram to complete the crimp. Check your progress several times during the process. Don’t try to do it all in one step. The crimp must be forced inward and also downward until it’s flat. Then, finally, recessed. This step usually requires the shell to be slightly lower in the die while at the same time the seating stem is lowered. Finally, a radius on the shell can be made by raising the shell in the die to contact the die shoulder (after raising the seating stem).

The crimping process is the most difficult part to complete and just takes some fritzing around and trial end error until you get it right. The case mouth must be closed until narrow enough for the seat stem in the final crimp die to grab it and force it inward while forcing it down also.

Using the .308 seat die and .32 wadcutter seating stem, adjust the die and seat stem so the shell is supported, yet the seat stem grabs the folded case mouth and turns the folds downward. When everything is adjusted and goes well, the crimp I obtain is sometimes as good as the factory crimp. On some shells the case mouth will bulge a little and I run it back into the .308 seat die to final finish the crimp by bumping the die shoulder.. Crimps will not always be perfect especially the second, 3rd, or 4th reload. Oh well, even a couple of reloads beat the cost of factory loads.

E-gunparts has Lee 410 6 point crimp starters and wad fingers so I have them now.
I’ve also found that using the RCBS #4 shellholder is OK for the Win AA’s but some Remington’s and most Federal’s wouldn’t fit. I had an RCBS #24 which I enlarged slightly with a Dremel tool and now they all fit that shellholder. I’ve also found that I can resize the brass head by using a polished out washer and a piece of pipe. A 3/8" washer reamed out with a dowel and sandpaper does the job. I need to photo that process.

I’ve also bought a bunch of old cardboard wads off of e-Bay and have some Winchester 410 shotcups so I can pretty much duplicate any factory load.

Circle Fly has cardboard wads you can buy.

May 2005 - Shot some 410’s across the chronograph. Using the old Champion single barrel shotgun, Remington case, Win. 209 primer, 3/8 oz. Shot, .200 card wad + styro wads to fill and 8.5 gr. Herco, one shot was 1215 fps. The same with 8 grains Herco was 1153 fps.. One half oz. Shot in WAA 410 case and Win 209 primer with 14 gr. 2400 with 1 card wad + styro fillers was 1215 (1 shot). Using 3 .375 balls and styro wads one shot was 886 and one with card wad was 1075 fps. Both prob’ly with 14 gr. 2400. But not labeled. One .375" ball in shortened (to just barely cut the crimp off and use rolled crimp on reload) WAA 410 case, 8 grains Herco + .200" card wad + styro to fill was 1338 and 1296 fps. (2 shots). (Reloaded same case twice.)

Remington factory slug chrono’d. at 1767 fps from Western Field bolt gun.
Ho’made ½ oz. shot shells w/ ~14 gr. 2400 chrono’d. ~1190 fps

Feb. 19, 2005 - Today I tried using the seater that came with the RCBS 308 dies. I filled it almost full of paper towel jammed in tight. I left a slight “lip” to capture the crimp. It worked. It’s almost too short but will work.

Any loads shown here are NOT suggested loads for anyone. They ARE loads I have used and appear safe in MY guns. Use your own recipes and your own common sense.

You WILL screw up some (maybe lots) crimps. Most that I screw up are still shootable for my use. Was I shooting skeet for $ I darn sure wouldn’t reload this way, but it keeps me happy and it keeps my wife happy ‘ cause it keeps me home and outa the bars and houses of ill repute.


March 16, 2006 - loaded some 3 ball loads and slug loads both using 18 grains of milsurp 4759. Too windy and nasty to chronograph but shot well and may actually not be a very hot load. My basis for loading was 18 grain loads using ½ oz of shot and H110 or WW296 and 4759 is listed as a tad slower than these. My slugs only weigh around 140-150 grains and the 3 ball loads are also considerably under ½ oz. The slugs are made from 380 empties with about 100 grains of lead melted into them (reject 100 gr. boolits). I then flare the base and fill it with boolit lube of most any sort available.. Loaded over the 18 grains of 4759 with card wad column adjusted for fit. Regards, Woody

[woody1]

Crimped using 308 Win dies as described. Some good, some not-so-good. All shootable for me. Most or all the not-so-goods are multiple fired hulls. Using a thin overshot wad makes 'em most all usable and assures the shot stays in! I see a couple there where I didn't. Regards, Woody

[357maximum]

A .410 Mec reloader works pretty good too....you guys make me tired....there should be several "INNOVATION" awards handed out here...good job fellas..

What I want to know is WHY OH WHY Lyman does not still make a .410 slug mold...they would sell like hotcakes...I have played with a few old single cav lyman molds trying to make a decent .412 slug on several occassions...still trying...

Someday...I am going to build a 41 caliber "rifle" barrel for an encore that uses .444 marlin brass...start with a barrel suitable for 41 mag and deepen and enlarge the chamber...then I could use any .41 caliber boolit...and be able to push it a little harder than traditional 410's...I'll mark the barrel

.410(slug only)


still have to figure out some dimensions...but the idea has been flopping around in my head for awhile now...


You guys just brought it back to the surface...thanks

Michael

[Old Ironsights]

I've got Veral working on a true 200gr (1/2oz) .410 hollowbase slug mold right now... ;)

I intend to shoot it out of my cylinder bore 9410 at about 1800fps by using CBC brass. I call it the .410 SLAM (Slug, Lever Action Magnum)

Using a measured Case Capacity of 82gr water, calculated bullet length of .705 and assumed bullet weight of 200 my load calculator figures 35gr H4198 for around 1900fps and 21kCUP and 1600+ftLbs ME – which puts it quite acceptably/ballistically into the Buffalo Bore .44mag rifle range… perfect for deer out to 100yds – assuming sufficient accuracy anyway.

Since the 9410 is essentially an unrifled 1894 in .444 with a long throat, I think it should handle 1/2 the pressure of a .444 quite handily. :mrgreen:

Oh, and here is a nice cut-away of the CBC .410 in comparison to a Rem .444 case. The slugs are one each of Rem & Federal. My slug will probably be a hair longer.

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/IMG_5144.jpg

[357maximum]

[QUOTE=Old Ironsights;124907]I've got Veral working on a true 200gr (1/2oz) .410 hollowbase slug mold right now... ;)[QUOTE]


I hope you get a multi-cavity mold....everyone will want some "samples' I know I would be interested....sounds intrigueing....keep us updated...

[Old Ironsights]

Tough to multi a nose-pour hollow base...

WARNING: This slug will NOT be suitable for ANY choked gun. The purpose of the deep hollow base is strictly for the Foster effect. Otherwise this is a pure bore-slug dimensional boolit.

No CAD files yet, but maybe soon...

[357maximum]

Tough to multi a nose-pour hollow base...

...



You got me there...I was visually inspecting my colon[smilie=1: ....:Fire:

[OLPDon]

357 Max:

Sounds like another Group Buy that I can't afford but can't afford not too.
I'm in>>>>>>>>> Don

[rockrat]

Interesting thread. Keep us posted on your endeavors. I have one of the Marlin guns that has been calling to me to try the same with the 9.3 x 74 R and round ball loads. Wonder if you can get 4 in there. Maybe with a card spacer between the round balls. If I had a mould, I could cast some out of Linotype so wouldn't get the deformation that probably would occur.

[357maximum]

357 Max:

Sounds like another Group Buy that I can't afford but can't afford not too.
I'm in>>>>>>>>> Don



Maybe we could get lee to make us the 410 mold in single cavity,,,and talk ol buckshot into hollowbasing all the molds...a single cavity mold/setup fee/buckshots fee may all add up to a cost prohibitive factor seeing as how interest would be minimal...but ..a true .412-230 grain hollowbased Foster ala.. Ranch dog tumblelube like design would make me happy as a lark.

I have an old savage model 58 in 410 that wears a scope and bent bolt handle...I wouls love to try these in...

Michael

[45 2.1]

LEE will make any practical hollow base slug you want. I've been in on two such buys. Normal fee of $100 setup and normal mold price. Should be no problem to get this done. You just need to spec it out.

[357maximum]

LEE will make any practical hollow base slug you want. I've been in on two such buys. Normal fee of $100 setup and normal mold price. Should be no problem to get this done. You just need to spec it out.

Sweeeet....learn something new everyday.....this issue will be looked into further....


-----------------------------------------------------------
I wonder what the possibility of getting 10 or so buyers to split the setup on this would be.......

[Lightning Ross]

C+H die company makes a crimp die that is use for putting crimps on brass 45long colt that the mounted shooters use for there blanks It is also used for the 5n1 ( longer)blanks used for the lever action rifles.Looks just like a22 bird shot shell. Might work for a 410.Only problem is you dont reload the brass more than twice the crimp weakens and the it breaks off . Not good shooting from a running horse with spectators on all sides.

[Greg]

my 410...well, it was my Grandpa’s first ( marked 12mm ) has a 2½" chamber, so I used .444 marlin brass cases. The 303 cases didn’t work so good!

.410 Brass case Load

* see Lyman 42nd Handbook and Hodgdon’s 25th pg 442.

R-P .444 cases

R-P Large Pistol primer

14.5 grains H110

⅛" card wad; ¼" filler wad

⅝ oz shot; and a card over-shot wad glued in with super glue. I couldn’t find any ‘water glass’!!

Taper crimp with a 45 ACP die.


I had picked up some Alcan ‘.45 pistol’-‘Special Wads for brass cases’ at a Gun Show. tried the 303 brass, I wasn’t thrilled with the results. I bought .444 Marlin brass, it works even though it’s a 2 + 7/32" length.

http://www.circlefly.com/ lists wads for brass cases. Hornady brought out their 405 cases ( 2½") and then the metric 9.3x74 R if you want a 3" case.

A Lyman 45 ACP carbide die does the sizing; I took a extra decaping stem adapter and made a wad seating stem using a long pan head machine screw and jam nut. The Lyman die is bored straight thru then threaded 9/16th’s for the adapter...RCBS is threaded a lot smaller and won’t full length size a 2½"case.

I use store bought boolits in my .410...the package is labeled ‘ Lawrence Brand chilled 8's’

[OLPDon]

Maybe we could get lee to make us the 410 mold in single cavity,,,and talk ol buckshot into hollowbasing all the molds...a single cavity mold/setup fee/buckshots fee may all add up to a cost prohibitive factor seeing as how interest would be minimal...but ..a true .412-230 grain hollowbased Foster ala.. Ranch dog tumyblelube like design would make me happy as a lark.

I have an old savage model 58 in 410 that wears a scope and bent bolt handle...I wouls love to try these in...

Michael

I would think with all the imput and and what has been done in the line of this we not only could come up with a outstanding mould but also a Case/Hull that would work best and get the most out of it (ie most reloadable). This project need not be rushed it would give many of us time to put on the thinking caps, and if Lee is willing to make Hollow Base mould. This could be project dedicated to Cast Booits Forum. Make it the "Castboolit Spl. in 410" or some catchy name just from this Great Forum with Great Guys ect.
As I am sure like most of us our $$$$$$$ have been somewhat depleted due to all these wonderful Group Buys that we surly can not do without. I am sure for those with "She who must be Obeyed" at home signing that UPS/USPS recieved form, will have limited understand how badly we need this. Much as we, deep within our hearts say how many Pocketbooks and or shoes do you realy need?
Heck it should make for a long post at the least. And seeing we could make it rather soft we could cast it on Buffalo Chips. Hmmmmmmm that sounds like a title to me.
"Buffalo Chips Cast Boolit spl in 410"
Don....................

[Old Ironsights]

I still like .410 SLAM... ;)

THE key is going to be finding the exact depth of hollow base to create Foster Stabilization out of a smoothbore. Without that, the mold would be useless to anyone without a choked gun.

I don't have the right engineering software/formulae to calculate the center-of-mass/gravity from raw dimensions.

The current educated SWAG is a hollow 2/3 the OAL of the bullet - which means either a LONG bullet or very thin skirt. Of course, the skirt can't bee TOO thin or it will blow out.

I'm thinking that an Ogival Wadcutter with a crimp groove for use with .444 brass (at .25" for an OAL of 2.50?) and a single lube groove.

Biggest problem is in sizing the cases down to a .41x slug. IIRC Sized .444 has an ID of .43x and CBC .410 brass is unsized at ID .437. That's a lot of down-sizing/taper crimp.


Any Mod out there want to make a .410 SLAM Design/Testing Sticky Thread?

[45 2.1]

What we need is some examples from the Lyman 410 slug mold. Factory slugs could be measured also and larger slugs could be measured and scaled down. None of this is beyond doing.

[Old Ironsights]

How about this?

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/9410chamber-throat.jpg

Anybody got the engineering software/calculus skills to figure the mass & center of gravity of this thing?

[45 2.1]

Good examples. The only problem is the cavity, it is straight sided and is the result of a swageing die. A cast projectile will need a tapered plug since the LEE setup is not removable and would not release a deep straight sided plug. But this enough to go from provided you have a particular sytle in mind. A think a mix of styles here would work.

Anybody got the engineering software/calculus skills to figure the mass & center of gravity of this thing?

Not really a problem, but not needed either as these are foster type slugs and behave as a shuttlecock does.

[Old Ironsights]

I will adjust the plug to a taper. How many degrees do you think would be enough?

Doesn't a Foster's center of mass/gravity have to be fairly well defined to prevent tumbling?

ANyway, it appears we are neighbors? I might have to come visit you... ;)

[45 2.1]

I'm about 6 hrs south of you on I-57. I think measureing and scaling down any of the larger Lyman slug molds will give us the right taper which is probably going to be about 5 degrees included. I have the 20, 16 and both 12s. You got any of 410 Slams or Dougs Slugs and have you used them? No chances should be taken here as we want a stabile accurate slug. Your 410 Slam is pretty close to the Lyman 41027 HB mold which I have. It could be used for testing in the 410.

[Old Ironsights]

.410 SLAM is my SWAG. ;)

I don't have any of Doug's Slugs, which ARE swaged, but I got a cut-away of his design from another website and scaled it as a starting point for the SLAM.

Here is a quickie update using a 3deg taper for the pin:

http://i5.photobucket.com/albums/y180/MrMisanthrope/9410SLAM.jpg

[357maximum]

This is getting me excited fellas,,but as it was stated,,,,no need to hurry,, my gunstuff funds are uhhh getting a little depleted also...

Bob

would the TL design make it a little easier drop from the mold...from my experience with lees hollow base/point molds...you need all the release help you can get...

the only slug molds i have in my posession right now are the 12/20 gauge airgun pellet designs from lyman...

and for what it's worth guys...ballistic products sells a .410 roll crimper...for the plastic hulls...I have one...it may have come from reloading specialties...I cannot quite remember...

there is also a wildcat .411 JDJ out there...I have the cartridge drawing here somewhere...maybe that might be something to look at as far a the sizing die issue...I believe RCBS has or had these dies...I will do some looking...it is a 444 based wildcat just like the rest of the JDJ series..

Michael

[45 2.1]

would the TL design make it a little easier drop from the mold...from my experience with lees hollow base/point molds...you need all the release help you can get... Michael

The sprue is cut, then the mold is opened and the core pin causes the boolit to come away from either side and there is no drop problems, other than getting the boolit off a deep core plug. [smilie=1: If you were to tumble lube the boolit, the tumble lube grooves wouldn't hurt anything I believe, but that could be tested with what we got. The point is to not hurry and get it right the first time.

[Old Ironsights]

You can get the Roll Crimper from Graf & Sons, along with some really excellent (from what I've been told) 3" high-brass (16mm) primed hulls by Cheddite.

[357maximum]

The sprue is cut, then the mold is opened and the core pin causes the boolit to come away from either side and there is no drop problems, other than getting the boolit off a deep core plug. [smilie=1: If you were to tumble lube the boolit, the tumble lube grooves wouldn't hurt anything I believe, but that could be tested with what we got. The point is to not hurry and get it right the first time.

Head up my colon.....AGAIN....sorry.....was not thinkin too hard or was I thinkin too hard ...who knows...[smilie=1: I was remembering wrong...it is the core pin I had issues with...got too keep that pin HOTTTT...

Get it right the first time....sounds like an excellent plan...

[Pilgrim]

.410 Roll Crimper

Graf & Sons = $42.95
Ballistic Products = $39.95
Precision Reloading = $24.95

Store bought .410 slugs all appear to be around 100 gr. A .375 round ball is ~90 gr, so we are better off loading multiple RB's than a single slug. Slug velocity (Brenneke = 1775 fps) is higher, but with slugs only weighing 100 gr. I'm sure we could accomplish the same with our reloads. A 200 gr. slug similar to that design above should be able to reach ~1500 fps, which would put it in the .44 mag. power range.

Buckshot - You given any thought to making roll crimps? If somebody would loan us one we could use as a pattern, I'm sure we could make them pretty easily.

Pilgrim

[357maximum]

.

Buckshot - You given any thought to making roll crimps? If somebody would loan us one we could use as a pattern, I'm sure we could make them pretty easily.

Pilgrim


If he will .....I have one to loan...

I will add this.....the .410 I have has one roll pin through the side...that is what does the rolling....on my 20 gauge roller there is two pins...the two pins works a ton better than the one pin...and I bet 3 pins set 120 degrees would work better yet...I have an old handcrank 12 gauge roller that has three "bumps" in the brass sleeve...it outperforms the newer drill versions by far in the quality/consistency of the finished roll crimp...

the roll crimper would be a simple job on the lathe and a few minutes drilling the holes for the pins...proably a less than an hour invested in the first one and far less than that for the rest.................they are a pretty simple looking little tool.....

Michael

[357maximum]

B.t.t.t

[Old Ironsights]

BTT.

Waiting for some .399 swaged paper-patched bullets I scammed off of a guy to play with until I get a mold worked out...

Gonna try them in the .410 plastic hulls. They have a smaller ID.

The folks at Dixie Slugs tend to think the shoulder is a good idea if the bullet is ever to be loaded in standard hulls. It's somthing for the roll-crimp to set on...

[oksmle]

Folks .... Just to carry this a bit farther. I have been loading stuff for all my .410 shotguns (5) using .444 Marlin cases. The one shotgun they don't like to function in is my pump. The other four are (2) Savage Mod. 24s, O/U, a Spanish S/S & a single shot "Eclipse". I have attempted to use the loads in a friends Mod. 9410 & another's auto loader. Sometimes they worked, but not in a reliable fashion. These loads use #4 through #71/2 shot & Clay Buster S410 shotcups are used with an over shot wad to hold everything together. I've been doing this for probably ten years or so & am very satisfied with the results on game. When I decided to attempt a "slug" load I searched around for something that would fit the .444 Marlin cases & didn't even consider the plastic hulls. I won't go in to all the different types of bullets tried, but nothing gave the accuracy I wanted in any of the guns that had any choke at all. I have one Mod. 24 which I had cut the barrels off about 1/2" behind the choke to make it a true cylinder bore shotgun. I wanted it that way for jump shooting rabbits at short range where I was either required to shoot or lose the game. And if hit solid with a full choked gun (even a .410) too much meat was wasted. Both the Mod. 24s have receiver sights & the front sights have been changed to something I can see. Anyway the open choked gun surprised me at 25 yards & then at 50 when I used the Lee .45 cal. Minnie ball. It's a PITA, but I chucked up a bunch of them in the headstock of my wood lathe & turned the skirts down (by hand using a wood turning tool) until I had a Minnie ball that weighed about 225 grains. I was concerned about the bullet's nose sticking out so far, but since the guns are chambered for the 3" shell, when loaded into the shorter .444 Marlin case they worked just fine. Since I have solved my personal problem of supplyng a .410 slug & I know the hollow based bullet will work, I encourage you to have a special mold made to your specs. I will certainly order one even if it's designed for the plastic hulls.

oksmle

[Old Ironsights]

What kind of accuracy do you see out of the turned-down minnies?

Lee is more than willing to stop cutting a .450 Minnie at .412, but I wonder whether the hollow is deep enough to prevent tumbling beyond 50yds.

They WILL do a base pin at whatever depth we want, but I don't know what depth that would be.

Lee suggested getting 2 long base pins (set to say 2/3 OAL) then start grinding one down specific amounts until the bullet became unstable at Range X. Then grind the other one down to the recorded point just before that.

Extra $50 on top of the $125 mold cost for the extra plug though (since their base plugs are integral plugs and not adjustable pins...)

[oksmle]

Old Ironsights .... Now I wish I'd saved the targets. The first 25 yard target (fired by me) was 3 shots not quite touching. Then my shooting buddy sat down & fired 3 shots at the same target. He enlarged the group to about 2". We did the same thing at 50 yards & (I'm guessing now) I think he enlarged my 3" group to about 4 1/2", firing 3 shots each. I had loaded 15 rounds with Unique & another 15 with 2400. I don't remember now which we shot from the bench. But it was probably the Unique loads because I have so much of it I try to use it whenever possible. After that we shot the remaining rounds off hand at a 1# coffee can sitting at the base of the 75 yard berm. We bounced that can all over the place, but had to hold over quite a bit. (Remember the sights were sighted in for the .22 barrel at about 30 yards, & the shotgun barrel followed along where ever.)
BTW, I lubed the Minnies with my regular lube.

oksmle

[Old Ironsights]

I'm hoping for no more than 6" groups at 100yds out of a rifle-sighted .410 Levergun.

All about geting the "Foster Point" right.

[Old Ironsights]

A Lee #5 is the same as a Lyman #13 & RCBS #4

Pepe Ray

BTW: THe CBC .410 brass uses a LEE #14 shell holder...

[Single Shot]

Anybody try a single .390 round ball?

[C A Plater]

Anybody try a single .390 round ball?
Ballistic Products has a .375" 93 gr. round ball & wad kit available. I bought a couple of them but have not tried them out yet. Supposed to be able to load them with regular shot shell tools. I plan to run them through a Mec 600 I have for .410 and see what kind of accuracy I can get. They also have some stubby wads that would let you stack three or more in a shell. So many toys, so little time.