Is this do-able

[charger 1]

I'm not going to get into how much powder,how much filler. What I am simply asking opinions on is if the theory will fly. Yes I know that powder is the best filler. Yes I know that fillerIF used is best in entirely straight cases. But what I'm trying to find out is if a minimal amount can be used in a compressed state in a case om minimal shoulder(as shown) To keep the bullet base away from the powder. In this case of compression I wonder about filler adding to projectile dia to cause problems in case neck. I worry about things staying compressed and in their proper columns. I know the neck is small,but still one has to ask...Please keep in mind the question is not,"Is it how you'd load" It is will it work..Thankyou.PS,, Sorry boys it showed for me,but not for you:???:
http://i7.photobucket.com/albums/y259/Chargerdive/450load-1.jpg

[BruceB]

Charger, sir;

There's no problem in using a LOOSE dacron tuft as filler in any case in which I've tried it.

This specifically includes fairly sharp-shouldered cases from the 6.5x54, .270, .338 etc., up to the .416 Rigby, which has a surprisingly-modern sharp shoulder profile. Dacron also works very well in straight cases as well as in cases with moderate-profiled shoulders.

Using a granular filler, I have torn cases completely in two on firing, including a couple of .375 Ultramags being fireformed to .404 Jeffery with no projectile at all. I strongly recommend against such things as cornmeal and some others as fillers.

As a severe test to see if powder would migrate when using a dacron filler, I placed a charge of IMR 4198 in a 9/16" OD clear-plastic tube, put a dacron tuft on top of it just as if it were in a brass case, and pinned a .50-caliber boolit in the mouth to cork it all up. I then put the tube in my jeans pocket and carried it everywhere for a couple of weeks, all day, every day. NO powder grains moved from their original and proper position...NONE.

Since the weight of a dacron tuft is miniscule, it adds virtually nothing to the mass being propelled by the powder charge. This can't be said of many substances used as fillers. Comparative chronographing of identical loads with-and-without dacron usually shows a very minor rise in velocity (hence pressure) but usually only on the order of 50 fps or less.

Since almost-uncompressed dacron does the job of immobilizing the powder, AND of insulating the bullet base from powder gas AND also isolates the bullet from powder contact before firing, I really see no need whatever for a "compressed" filler such as you propose. Particularly in such bottleneck cases as you ask about, granular fillers have a considerable history of creating problems.

K-I-S-S....use dacron in ANY shape of case, and you'll have no troubles. It's important to note that this recommendation ONLY applies if a bare minimum of dacron is used....just enough to be sure of filling the airspace in the case with a minimum of compression.

I estimate how much volume remains to be filled above the charge and make tufts of suitable size for that volume. The tuft is pushed into the case with a tool (like a flat-bit screwdriver) ONLY until the tool makes contact with the powder. At that point there should be a bit of dacron still outside the neck, and this is tucked barely inside the casemouth so that the bullet itself finishes the installation by pushing the dacron down as it's seated. This ensures complete filling of the airspace above the charge.

The answer to your original question is that, YES, SOME compressed fillers MIGHT work under SOME conditions. However, I'd much rather deal with an uncomplicated filler such as my dacron (polyester fiber). The real question arising in my mind is whether ANY filler is required, with the amount of space occupied the powder charge in your illustration. However, I believe your concern for protecting the bullet base is easily met by the fiber fill.

After saying all the above, I don't really know how to vote on your poll.....

[charger 1]

I have a ton of 335. 335 likes compression

[Bass Ackward]

I do in my 35 Whelen where the extra power is benificial. Never even consider it for 30 caliber or below. But that is because my bore diameters jump from 30 to 35 and my mindset is that 35s are where it all starts for "my" hunting. That's not to say anything doesn't work inbetween or at 30 for that matter. I just consider the bore diameter as being "the ideal" in the ratio of bullet weight to twist rate for bottle necked cases unless you are will to consider much more recoil. And you have several practical case designs and capacities from which to choose for lead use.

I absolutely compress the hell out of PSB in a 35 Whelen which many times goes below the neck. Which is the advantage of a highly tapered case with a gently sloped shoulder. Not sure I would try that with a 358. But because of the powder charge behind that, filler doesn't go .... very far .... below. I have never had a problem with my cases and in fact the necks seal much better and are cleaner. SO ES are down. The filler benifit adds to the ability to handle pressure which is increased by up to 4000 psi with lighter bullets per caliber. Because I run the pressure up another 2000 psi in 35 caliber over what I can without it, I can use a slower powder and get another 200 to 300 fps with soft lead and still hold MOA. The improvement declines the heavier the bullet because it still puts more pressure on the base which the PSB can't compensate for.

My 14 BHN, 255 grain this year peaks at 2050 fps without filler, 2250 fps with. SO I use filler. :grin:

[singleshotbuff]

Just my $.02, I have used dacron, compressed, in lots of bottleneck cases in the last few years. Both with boolits and Jword projectiles. Seems to help accuracy in rough bores too.

I believe the key with dacron is to COMPLETELY fill the airspace between boolit and powder. This will keep the dacron from becoming a "secondary boolit" (for lack of a better term), slamming into the boolit base and ringing a chamber. I have heard of this happening with dacron, and I think in every case the person used just a small tuft of dacron on top of the powder. I've also never had any powder migration with dacron filler.

Dacron also doesn't burn or melt. It blows out the barrel of my gun in white puffs and lands on the ground in front of my bench. Looks like it's snowing on my range LOL.

I'm not telling anyone else how to use dacron, or any filler, just telling you what I do. YMMV.

SSB

[stocker]

I concur with Bass on the use of PSB. I use small amounts (usually less than 6 grains) in my Whelens and in my 300 Savages over near full case loads of slow burning powders. In both cartridges the bullets used (358009 and RCBS180FNGC) seat well below the neck. The PSB appears to offer the exposed portion of the bullet some protection from gas cutting. I have torn down some 300 Savage loads that were assembled 2 years ago and there is no bonding of the PSB. It remained lose and would pour right out. I am however very cautious about wiping any excess lube off the bullet base and store these cartridges nose down in a cool area to reduce any possibility of lube migration. There are some other fillers I would not attempt this with. Dacron would also do the trick but is not nearly as convenient as a material I can run through a powder measure.

[BruceB]

Charger;

I've used H335 with dacron fill, and had excellent results. It might 'like" compression, but in my experience it certainly doesn't always "need" compression. Gotta keep an open and inquiring mind here.

Singleshotbuff;

The way I use the dacron does occupy ALL the airspace remaining in the case. It does not, however, exclude all the air, some of which is still present within the fairly-loose tuft. When the density of the tuft is this low, and filling all available space in the case, there is NO WAY for a grain or less of dacron to become a secondary projectile. All it can do is yield to the pressure from the burning powder while the front of the tuft is in contact with the bullet's base.

Heavy compression of a mass of dacron turns it into a solid, although it likely does no harm as long as there's no empty airspace behind the bullet. A solid mass of compressed dacron does become extra weight to be accelerated and will affect the pressure of the load more than a low-density tuft.

I agree entirely with your statement about a small tuft seated on the powder with airspace in front of it. Also, your observations about the NON-burning of dacron agree with mine.

What DOES (apparently) ring chambers is the use of a rigid or hard wad seated on the powder with airspace in front of it. I'm not so sure that dacron would have quite the same effect, but since I religiously avoid that condition I don't concern myself with it.


stocker;

In my loading, contrary to your practice, each round is completely loaded before leaving the turret press. Using a separate step involving a second powder measure for the PSP, or using one powder measure in two separate procedures (powder-charge/PSP charge) would be a major change in a long-proven technique.
For my purposes, dacron is more efficient from the actual loading standpoint.

[stocker]

BruceB: Yep, I see the conflict with your loading system. I'm still and probably always will be a single stepper and I can't do disco either. I use two powder measures set side by each: drop powder, drop PSB - double check that the order was right and then seat bullets. What ever works best for your system is the way to go.

[Char-Gar]

The question doesn't spell out what kind of filler. With some regular basis I uses PSB to top off charges of slow burning powder in bottleneck cases. I am talking the 30-06 case with WC872.

I would not use organic fillers in bottle neck cases, but PSB won't harden or compress into a solid plug. It does create a small cloud of white plastic granuals. I have had folks ask me if I was shooting black powder. I know a number of folks that use PSB on top of various ball powders in bottle neck cases.

There is no problem keeping the filler and powder seperated if you use a ball powder like WC872. With a long stick powder, I would want to store the rounds bullet nose down until I got ready to fire them.

In straight cases (45-70), I have used a big grain powder like 4759 with PSB to form a compressed load. However, I use a card wad to seperate the powder and filler.

[charger 1]

The question doesn't spell out what kind of filler.


On the diagram you'll notice its precision reloadings shot buffer

[stocker]

charger 1 : only if you can open the diagram which my system won't. Perhaps others had the same problem.

[singleshotbuff]

Bruce B,

I concur with everything you wrote. I didn't mean to imply that you left any air in the case, or that I HEAVILY compress my dacron. I just use enough to fill the case to the mouth, then let the bullet lightly compress it.

I also concur with your statement about card or other "hard" wads ringing chambers. I have, however, heard of cases where a chamber was ringed using dacron or PSB. I have only heard and read of these cases, I have never witnessed one first hand, so I can not confirm any of the particulars. I'm just guessing at the small amount of dacron causing the ring, but I could be way off base. Either way, just to be safe, I load mine to 100% density with dacron or PSB. I have used PSB before, both with Jword and real boolits, but have switched to dacron for easier loading.

I picked up my dacron info and technique from Ross Seyfried. I know some people don't care for him, but he is one of my favorite writers. He is ADAMANT about using a caseful of dacron to avoid any ringing or other problems.

Fascinating subject BTW. I'd like to devote some time this winter to extensive chronograph and accuracy testing with dacron.

SSB

[Jack Stanley]

Charger , only rarely will I use any filler but perhaps what I was doing in my .303 might help you .

I had got a good deal on several pounds of Reloader twelve that seemed like it wanted to work with a two hundred and fifteen grain cast slug . Problem was , it would smoke the case body heavily and have reasonable accuracy up untill the time the smoking went away and the leading began .
The load was about half-way up the shoulder of the case during this and I thought about using a filler to increase the pressure just to help the powder burn a little better . I started by cutting the charge back a little which still had the powder level in the shoulder area . Then I dumped a small amount ( I think it was a LEE 1.0cc scoop ) of attrition milled corncob on the powder .
This filled the neck about one third of the way and when the bullet was seated to the bottom of the neck the cobs were compressed very well . In firing these the smoked case problem went away and accuracy increased . Nothing seemed to indicate danger so I increased the powder charge again , and again , and again . Untill I was getting excellent accuracy , plenty of recoil and a bit of flash leading . Still no danger signs of pressure on the case but I dropped the load back a little and got the chronograph .
All said and done the charge was about halfway up the shoulder of the case and I was using just enough cobs to reach about one fourth the way up the neck ( just shy of a 1cc scoop ) . The chrono said the slug was doing 1950 feet per second , the case didn't smoke or come apart and the accuracy was there no matter if the weather was cold or hot and the barrel clean or dirty . These cases I anneal the necks about every five shots and I have loaded them no less than twenty times .

I've never used dacron so I can't tell ya much about that but if the .303 experiment helps ya I'm happy fer that :-D

Jack

[Nrut]

charger 1 : only if you can open the diagram which my system won't. Perhaps others had the same problem.
same here........

[Char-Gar]

Charger.. All I get is the red X and no diagram

[Bigjohn]

Charger 1; same here; all I get is the red 'X'.

John

[grumpy one]

I have had some fairly ugly results with dacron but they were due to deviating from Bruce B's method. I used dacron for quite a while in 30-06 with small charges of W231 pistol powder and 311255, a 119-grain round nose plain base bullet. All was well until I varied my technique slightly without thinking about it. What I did, was push the dacron through the case neck with a pencil, ending up with a space between the tuft of dacron and the bullet base. The only effect was that I found melted toroidal masses of dacron stuck to the rear web of the cases after firing. I dug them out when reloading, and didn't think much about it except for wondering how it had happened. However I then did the same thing with the same powder and bullet in 30-30, and it was not so harmless. I got pronounced rings in the cases at the junction of the shoulder and neck, which happened to be where the bullet base was. In the higher loads the neck ring was bad enough to prevent extracting the case with the Marlin action, and I had to use a cleaning rod.

It seems clear to me that the dacron was forming a compressed wad, and hitting the base of the bullet as an internal projectile. With the strong 30-06 case, the wad just bounced off the bullet and stuck to the rear web. With the thin 30-30 case, the wad damaged the case neck when it impacted the bullet base. Incidentally the wad was not retained in the 30-30 cases as it had been in the 30-06s.

So, my experience is that so far I've had no problems with dacron tufts that completely fill the airspace in the case, but I've had quite serious problems with dacron tufts just pushed down with a pencil through the case neck. I don't recommend use of dacron at all, though I still try it from time to time myself - but I'm very careful to ensure it springs up against the bullet base.

Geoff

[singleshotbuff]

Grumpy One,

This is what I have read about with ringed chambers and airspace with dacron. The dacron becomes an "internal projectile" or as I put it "secondary bullet" and the main bullet becomes, in effect, a bore obstruction. Thus a ringed chamber. Just a theory I have, based on what I have read. As stated above, I play it safe when using dacron and make sure it fills the case COMPLETELY to the base of the bullet.

SSB

[35remington]

I've done a lot of things with dacron as part of the learning curve.

If you use enough of it, it will exit the barrel intact. Fast burning powders leave a small fused area, and in the case of the cartridge in my username, a disk exactly the diameter of the bullet base could be found as part of the tuft. Was using a bit much, but never got me into trouble, and the amount used was still less than a grain or so. Slower burning powders left just a dirty wad of dacron. I also noticed that the strands of dacron were broken into shorter segments-I recall that other guys here on the board have seen the same thing.

I'm way more into moderation now, but still filling the airspace completely.

I small game hunt a lot, and more than a few times took a spill climbing a creek bank, and the box of 50 dacron loaded cartridges in .25-20 or whatever bounced hard all the way down. They've always worked normally. I also feel better about using it with very low pressure cast bullet loads, as it always clears the barrel completely.

No problems with using it in thin neck brass, but I never used it with airspace. Always did it the same way as BB describes.

[joeb33050]

I have had some fairly ugly results with dacron but they were due to deviating from Bruce B's method. I used dacron for quite a while in 30-06 with small charges of W231 pistol powder and 311255, a 119-grain round nose plain base bullet. All was well until I varied my technique slightly without thinking about it. What I did, was push the dacron through the case neck with a pencil, ending up with a space between the tuft of dacron and the bullet base. The only effect was that I found melted toroidal masses of dacron stuck to the rear web of the cases after firing. I dug them out when reloading, and didn't think much about it except for wondering how it had happened. However I then did the same thing with the same powder and bullet in 30-30, and it was not so harmless. I got pronounced rings in the cases at the junction of the shoulder and neck, which happened to be where the bullet base was. In the higher loads the neck ring was bad enough to prevent extracting the case with the Marlin action, and I had to use a cleaning rod.

It seems clear to me that the dacron was forming a compressed wad, and hitting the base of the bullet as an internal projectile. With the strong 30-06 case, the wad just bounced off the bullet and stuck to the rear web. With the thin 30-30 case, the wad damaged the case neck when it impacted the bullet base. Incidentally the wad was not retained in the 30-30 cases as it had been in the 30-06s.

So, my experience is that so far I've had no problems with dacron tufts that completely fill the airspace in the case, but I've had quite serious problems with dacron tufts just pushed down with a pencil through the case neck. I don't recommend use of dacron at all, though I still try it from time to time myself - but I'm very careful to ensure it springs up against the bullet base.

Geoff

Did the chamber of the 30/30 or 30/06 rifle get ringed?
How much Dacron did you use in 30/30. I use a teased ball about as big as a nickel in 45/70, somewhat smaller in 30 caliber. Pushed down on the powder and tamped with a pencil. Almost zero weight though.

May I quote this in the CBA book?

Thanks;
joe brennan

[KCSO]

I have used COW as a filler in 303 with some sucess. It does raise pressures some, but with some 2 groove barrels it seeems to be the only practical way of getting decent accuracy. I try for as much powder and as little COW as possible. I am currently using 4895 and a Lee 069 dipper of COW in a 30-40 Krag case reformed to 303. This lets me shoot a 314 bullet with good accuracy in a 2 groove 303 where the bare bullet won't group in to a foot at 100 yards. That said I don't like it as it is a pain to load. I much prefer loads with no filler.

[carpetman]

Singleshotbuff---A guy at the range was using dacron filler and was getting those white puffs you mention that looked like snow. All was ok at first. It was 90 degrees out maybe even a hundred. Then he started using his full automatic and so much was flying around a guy two benches over thought it was coming a blizzard and he froze to death. Caused a 30 car pile up on the freeway.

[charger 1]

Singleshotbuff--- a guy two benches over thought it was coming a blizzard and he froze to death. Caused a 30 car pile up on the freeway.


And the headlines read IN A FREAK ACCIDENT TODAY

[singleshotbuff]

LOL Carpetman, it may "snow" here this afternoon. This thread has me wanting to try some more dacron loads.

SSB

[grumpy one]

Did the chamber of the 30/30 or 30/06 rifle get ringed?
How much Dacron did you use in 30/30. I use a teased ball about as big as a nickel in 45/70, somewhat smaller in 30 caliber. Pushed down on the powder and tamped with a pencil. Almost zero weight though.

May I quote this in the CBA book?

Thanks;
joe brennan

Joe,

At that time I used the tufted bulk dacron rather than the type that is in rolled sheets. The tufted style seems to me to be more dense - you can't see through a small tuft of it, whereas you can with the sheet type. The tuft was of a size to fill the cartridge case without teasing it out, or compressing it either - just a caseful in its natural state. Pushing it down into the case with the pencil resulted in the front third of the case interior being empty.

As far as I can tell there was no damage to the chamber of the 30-06. The cases showed no sign of being mishapen at the time, or subsequently. In the 30-30 if I hold fired cases up to a bright light and rotate them, I can see a slight bulge at the shoulder-to-neck joint, in the same place where the original ring occurred. There is no effect on case extraction, and as far as I know accuracy has not been affected either. I am still using the same set of 30-30 cases, despite ten of them having been ringed - they have been loaded 10 times now, FLS each time with the die backed off about a third of a turn from shell-holder contact, and only two have been retired, both due to shoulder cracks. They have never been annealed from new.

Of course you are welcome to use the report in the CBA book if you wish.


Geoff

[Bigjohn]

After all that, I'm sorry I can't help you as I have never used solid fillers let alone seen any.

John

[joeb33050]

I have used Cream of Wheat fillers on top of a wad on top of the powder-with a little compression-in 30/06 and 30/40 Krag and other bottlenecks.
I have never had a problem.
I have used both lubed and unlubed bullets with no leading.
I've read about the COW forming a hard plug, but my COW in the opened box never clumps or gets hard.
I've never had "better" accuracy with COW than without.
I've always been a little nervous about COW and bottlenecked cases, do it rarely now.
Today I'm going to the range and shooting 45/70, No Grease Groove bullets over COW over small Dacron wad over 14/Unique. I keep searching-it keeps me out of the pool halls.
joe b.