223 cast question bolt gun

[Ford SD]

Just a idea about a 223 project and because I cast my friend asked me about it
(local store has one used for low$$

rifle bolt gun 21 inch barrel and 1/12 twist

what bullet weight will work best with 1/12 twist

what do you think about Cyotes and 223 and cast 200 yd ok?
will it knock them down with one shot ??


Also rifle will be used as a first center-fire for a pre teen girls to punch paper
range to 300 yds (as skill builds) statrting at 100yds

What powder will any powder work with WW with a bit of tin air cooled Plain Base (yes no gas check) or will a GC be required (cost)

have heat treated bullets in the oven but its a extra step and if i don't have to

Have Trail Boss, Unique and other powders

and could Small pistol primers be used



and what J word bullet weight will work

PS
I am loading cast in 5 rifles but have never loaded 223

thanks
in advance

Ford SD

and swaging 22rim could be in the future to make bullets

[Larry Gibson]

Ford SD

rifle bolt gun 21 inch barrel and 1/12 twist

what bullet weight will work best with 1/12 twist

Cast bullets up through 60 gr will work fine in a 12" twist barrel. Very good accuracy can be had up through 2200 fps. I've been shooting cast in a 12" twist M700V since '72. I find that the 225415 is excellent for shooting small varmints with velocities from 1800 - 2200 fps. However, the 225462 is the more accurate cast bullet, especially if you want to push above 2000+ fps.

what do you think about Cyotes and 223 and cast 200 yd ok?
will it knock them down with one shot ??

Having shot several of them with cast in the .223 I do not think much of it. A coyote is a very tenacious animal. Now I never shot a coyote 200 yards away as most of the ones I shot were inside 100 yards. I shot them with 2200 fps loads using both 225415 and 225462. Most went well over 100 yards before dying and I lost 2 of them. That is not my game and I disliked it. If you've any respect for the game then an appropriate jacketed bullet is the thing to use on coyotes. I recommend the Hornady 55 gr SX at 3150 fps (probably with the 21" barrel).

Also rifle will be used as a first center-fire for a pre teen girls to punch paper
range to 300 yd100yds s (as skill builds) statrting at

Should work fine for that if you load for accuracy not speed.

What powder will any powder work with WW with a bit of tin air cooled Plain Base (yes no gas check) or will a GC be required (cost)

I like 4895 with a 1/3 gr dacron filler. Start at 17 gr with either bullet and work up. Yes a GC will be required for your needs.

have heat treated bullets in the oven but its a extra step and if i don't have to

No need to HT in an oven, you can water quench out of the mould. Suggest .225 sizing and Javelina or Lars 2500+ lube.

Have Trail Boss, Unique and other powders

If you want to develop 300 yard loads then a medium or slower burning powder is better. Suggest 4895 or slower and use one that ignites efficiently at reduced psi.

and could Small pistol primers be used

Yes they can be used but I've not found any advantage in this cartridge. Standard SR primers work fine.

and what J word bullet weight will workPS

Jacketed bullets of 40 - 55 gr work very well in the 12" twist .223s. As mentioned i prefer the hornady 55 gr SX. I load it over 26.5 gr H335 in LC cases with a WSR or CCI 450 primer. That's a max load so work up to it. The SX gives explosive results on small squirrels and I've killed coyotes cleanly with one shot a tudge past 500 yards with it.

I am loading cast in 5 rifles but have never loaded 223

Not much different, just smaller......

and swaging 22rim could be in the future to make bullets

Have at it:bigsmyl2:

Larry Gibson

[stubshaft]

10.2 gr 2400 (no Filler) WW small postol primer , either old Bator or 225415 sized to .225 made witl 70% pure and 30% Mono/Lino, Felix lube. Shoots under 1" out of my Encore pistol art 100 yds.

[GabbyM]

With 1-12” 223 barrels and J bullets. I’ve found 55 grain boat tails will go unstable just short of 400 yards. Enough to give five or six inch groups opposed to two inch groups at 400. 50 grain SBT stay accurate. I’ve not tried the Nosler 55 grain ballistic tips. They have a smaller boat tail so may shoot in a 12 twist. Point is a 55gr SBT is marginal in a 12 twist. Which is why the M-193 tumbles out after impact. Since stability is dependant on temp, BP and humidity I’d stick with flat base in 55 grain bullets. The 55’s are generally built stronger than the 50’s so are better for yotes. Most 50 grain 223 bullets will not leave an exit hole while a 55 grain will. Biggest hole I ever blew in a coyote was with M-193 ball (55gr FMJ government profile) from a 12 twist AR. About soft ball sized hole on an angle shot. Those FMJ’s also ricochet very badly and are unsuited for any kind of sporting use due to that alone. They’ll hit dirt at 350 yards then hit again anywhere from ¼ mile to a mile away. About as often as not. Larry’s favored 55gr SX Hornady (super explosive) or the Sierra Blitz drastically cut down on ricochet since they will come apart when they hit the ground. So IMHO it’s worth giving up a little penetration for safety in most locations. Sierra polly tip Blitz-Kings are to frangible for coyotes. The 50 grain SBK is my favorite prairie dog bullet but no good on yotes. Others have found that out and I take them at there word after seeing hundreds of them blow up on a P-Dog. Zero penetration. But I’ve shot all day without a wounded P-Dog. Makes a loud pop. You can miss short by two inches and the lead spray cuts them in half. A plain old fashion soft nose flat based 55 grain bullet is plenty accurate for yotes. Have shot a bunch of the Hornady 55gr SP W canalure bulk bullets. Some SX and Sierra Blitz. They all shot but never had them side by side to compare. The 53 grain match HP bullets with flat base will shoot far smaller group sizes as will the good ballistic tipped bullets. But unless you have a 10X scope and are set up on a bench rest you’ll never see the difference. It makes a difference with prairie dogs AKA picket pins as those thing are lucky to go three inches wide and shooting starts at 330 yards. Plus we shoot off portable benches. Match Kings do not kill P-Dogs very well though. About like a soft nose. V-Max and Blitz-Kings will spoil you seeing P-Dogs fly apart. Have some Speer SP’s to try but not shot them yet. They are supposed to be hot cores and hold up good to penetrate. So they are yote bullets.

Been shooting the cast Lyman #225646 over 14.5 grains of H4198 with great results. When I’m out of H4198 I have some RX7 to try. H-4198 shoots great but even the shorter cut of the Hodgdon over the IMR series it still measures rough. Never tried the popular 4895 loads. Stuffing Dacron wads in a case isn’t in my future. 14.5gr H-4198 was the first charge I tried and it worked so have not touched it in a year. Last group I shot at fifty yards was .20” vertical and well under ¾” horizontal with 16 to 25 knot cross winds. From a 26” heavy rifle with 24X scope. It’s nothing to shoot under an inch at 100 yards for fifty shots. This heavy Varmint rifle will shoot J bullets like Sierra 53gr MK or 50 gr BK all day at 3/8”. Lube is Felix home brew with reduced amount of oils (for convenience). Lube volumes in these little bullets looks small but even with a 26” barrel I’ve had no issue with lube. I like Lars Carnauba red for store bought lube. But I’ve not tested many lubes as has Larry.

The reason the first load I tried worked is what I read here of Larry’s experience as to general powder speed and velocity. Stick powders light easier than ball powders at low pressure. I had H-4198 so tried the high end load from Lyman book at listed 2223 fps and it works in a 1-12” twist 223. All I needed to do was cast a nice boolit. One hundred yard one hole groups all day long on the first try. Sans wind. But this is with a gun that will shoot 3/8” groups. At two hundred the wind starts to take it’s toll as the drift is extreme. By extreme I mean it’s hard to hold a chicken egg at two hundred yards. Reality is that makes you a better shooter once you move out to long range rifle with J bullets. Fun factor of the little 223 cast loads is almost off the scale. You can see the bullets hit in your scope view as the recoil is low. That’s a huge deal with junior shooters learning curve. You mentioned young shooters. Most youngsters under sixteen do not have a spatial perception of anything outside a fifty foot range. Note I did’nt say fifty yards but fifty feet. A cast bullet at 2,200 fps is plenty of gun and they should start with the 22 rim fire at 1,200 fps. They will air ball a few. Your Unique powder I’m familiar with and 7 ½ grains is a for sure load under 50 to 60 grain bullets. Forget plain base. You will not exceed 22 rim-fire velocity. Look up Blamers Gator checks. IIRC they are under $20 per M for 22’s. 4895 meters good as does Rx7. 4895 will take about 25% more powder to get 2200 fps. In an AR-15 the slower powder gives gas volume to cycle an action but in a bolt gun it’s just smoke. Unless you want to go for extreme velocity.

Cases were once fired LC surplus extensively prepped but not weight sorted. De-burred flash holes and reamed primer pockets. Generally I’d weight sort cases but didn’t with these. Or maybe I did and forgot. Since I have bags of 1,000 Mil Surplus prepped brass and picked one out for my cast loads. Lyman M die is used for neck expansion. A near must have item. Boolit seating is with a Wilson hand die. I drop the die over the case then push in the .225” boolit from the top and run the seat stem over it. Last step is to run them all through a seat die to turn the case neck flare back in with a very slight crimp of about half the neck wall thickness.

I have Forester Bonanza floating chamber and the Wilson hand dies for seating bullets. Didn’t always have nice dies but after I bought my first set I’ve been sold on them. Forester dies are very reasonable. You don’t need that silly micrometer top. A Wilson chamber type seater is $48. The Forester is $44.99 at Grafs dot com. The Forester floating chamber dies will even give great results on a Dillon progressive where things are all sloppy. Since the case is captured before the bullet is started in. machine movement is neutralized since the case is tight in the floating chamber. I rarely take time to set up my Dillon for rifle ammo anymore. I can do it with bottle neck cases. Using a Forester case neck station screwed to the bench with motor mica lube and inside neck brush. You dip case neck in mica which leaves enough on the outside for a neck size die then brush the carbon out of the ID. Also leaving some mica behind. Prep up a fifty block of those. Then run them through your progressive with neck size die, powder charge die Lyman M die then floating chamber bullet seat die.

That only works with clean cases ready to go. In the future I’ll just buy a Wilson seater die.

I do have 5M of M-193 to load up this summer which I will do on my Dillon. But the cases are already sized, prepped and primed with a hand held primer. The Dillon powder meassure is very acurae with all powder (Ramshot TAC) and the Forester seater does a far better job than the Hornady 55gr FMJ bullets will yield. About 2 MOA on a good day.

I consider my cast laods at under 1 MOA accurate at two hundred yards as long as the wind does not blow.

[seppos]

If one need to improve the terminal ballistics of cast boolits without hollow pointing, one option is to make a "löffelspitz" out from it..
Old german innovation that has been used to improve 22LR:s terminal ballistics.

In the pic the boolit is a bit heavyer.. but the idea is the same..
http://i459.photobucket.com/albums/qq319/seppos_photos/lovelspitsi.jpg
Couple of passes with file in the nose of a boolit, and the bullet tumbles on impact.
To improve the consitency it would be a good idea to make a fileing jig from steel and harden it..
That way the shape of the nose and weight is always the same.
http://guns.connect.fi/gow/raloffel.jpg

S

[Larry Gibson]

GabbyM

Nice post, however this is the first time I've ever heard "With 1-12” 223 barrels and J bullets. I’ve found 55 grain boat tails will go unstable just short of 400 yards.

I've shot a lot of M196 and 52 gr MKs at 500 yards in competition out of M16A1's and never noticed any differance in linear dispersion of groups between 400 and 500 yards other than what it was supposed to be. I also never heard anyone else mention stability problems at that range. I've also done a lot of long range testing to 600 yards with the 12" twist out of my bolt gun M700V with various bullets including the 55 gr BTs. Never ever encountered a stability problem. I just recently was shooting rocks down Arizona way out to 640 yards (Leupold range finder) with my 12" twist AR and a 12" twist Encore barrel using US M193 and had no problems with stability at all. Actually when I walked out and saw the actual size of the rock and impacts on and around it I was holding very close to 3 moa which was very good consider the 1 moa dot of the Eotech. The Encore had a 10X scope and did much better. Not saying it won't happen but could you provide a few more details on the testing that demonstrated that as I'm just interested is all?

Larry Gibson

[GabbyM]

GabbyM

Nice post, however this is the first time I've ever heard "With 1-12” 223 barrels and J bullets. I’ve found 55 grain boat tails will go unstable just short of 400 yards.

I've shot a lot of M196 and 52 gr MKs at 500 yards in competition out of M16A1's and never noticed any differance in linear dispersion of groups between 400 and 500 yards other than what it was supposed to be. I also never heard anyone else mention stability problems at that range. I've also done a lot of long range testing to 600 yards with the 12" twist out of my bolt gun M700V with various bullets including the 55 gr BTs. Never ever encountered a stability problem. I just recently was shooting rocks down Arizona way out to 640 yards (Leupold range finder) with my 12" twist AR and a 12" twist Encore barrel using US M193 and had no problems with stability at all. Actually when I walked out and saw the actual size of the rock and impacts on and around it I was holding very close to 3 moa which was very good consider the 1 moa dot of the Eotech. The Encore had a 10X scope and did much better. Not saying it won't happen but could you provide a few more details on the testing that demonstrated that as I'm just interested is all?

Larry Gibson

Saying they go unstable may be a misuse of the term? Most boat tails fly in a cork screw trajectory. This is well known. The 55 grain SBT bullets seamed to increase the size of this corkscrew diameter at the longer ranges. As soon as accuracy degrades to one MOA you aren’t hitting half the prairie dogs at 400 yards as most are half that wide. Pretty much need to be able to hit a chicken egg to hit a P-Dog. Never had more than a 200 yard rifle range to shoot and test ammo at back then. Have a 500 yard line at Effingham now. Will have to shoot some 55’s and 50’s side by side at 500 yards on paper to compare. Get an actual measurement.
What we knew to work was to set aside the 55grain SBT when they started to miss then use the 50 grain SBT bullets and accuracy went up. It’s not just the wind drift difference. 55 SBT’s would start to miss in all directions sending you chasing your tail trying to correct. I know several shooters who also think the 50’s fly better. Also probably why they are the popular small varmint weight. The sierra 50 grain Blitz-King is the best shooting bullet I’ve used even at the 100 yard line and it’s a High BC SBT ballistic tip. Can’t say that about the same design in 55 grain BK. I use the 53 gr Sierra Match King for varmint rifle matches. They don’t shoot any better than the 50gr BK but are quite a bit cheaper. I may get on that 500yard range and end up dispelling my ideas but I don’t think so to man rounds down range already. Have a new 9” twist AR now that should shoot heavier bullets. Lots of 223 shooting to do this summer.

Having said all tat I’m sure someone out there has a 12 twist 223 that will shoot sub MOA groups at five or six hundred yards with some 55 grain boat tail bullet.

[Larry Gibson]

"Having said all tat I’m sure someone out there has a 12 twist 223 that will shoot sub MOA groups at five or six hundred yards with some 55 grain boat tail bullet."

Not saying my M700V with 12" twist will shoot sub moa at 500-600 yards (It shoots in the .3s at 100 yards and .7s at 200 yards). I've killed lots of small ground squirrels out at 300 yards with it. You have maybe a 1 1/4" wide target with them. I've also killed a passel of PDs outside of Havre, MT out to 550 or so yards (paced off) with both that rifle and a M70 with 12" twist. Last time I was using the Nosler 55 gr Ballistic tips and the Sierra 55 gr Blitzkings. If you are not pushing 3200 fps then it's possible, depnding on the bullet, to be dropping subsonic around 600 yards. Perhaps less if the loads aren't doing what you really think they are. also at 3200 fps muzzle velocity at 55 Blitzking is only running 1600 fps or so at 600 yards, the wind is pretty pushy on them. Be interesting to see your range test results.

Larry Gibson

[Ford SD]

Thanks every one for posting information and comments

I missed out on this used rifle

up on the rack for sale and sold before the end of the day

and me with not enough $$ in my pocket at the time

copied all the information posted so i have reading material

Hope to have a one before the end of the summer if one shows up used in good shape

thanks

FORD SD:mrgreen:

[scrapcan]

Here is some good reading on cast in the 223, a three part series by Beagle

http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223.pdf
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223,%20Part%20II.pdf
http://www.castpics.net/subsite2/ByCaliber/Cast%20in%20the%20.223,%20Part%20III.pdf